Is there such a thing as a bad Sabian?

[Mr VK]

Hi guys,

I've been playing the same old entry level cymbals I've had for about 10 years now and as my band is getting more traction and fine tuning my sound is becoming more important I've been looking at upgrading to a semi pro / pro set.

I was talking to one of the guys in my local drum shop for ages as we were discussing the different makes and ranges. I play hard rock so I'm quite partial towards something like Sabian AAX. The guy in the shop advised me against it, saying he rates Paiste much more highly. Not from a sound point of view, but from a quality point of view. He said that all the Paiste cymbals they sell are awesome and they rarely get any back because they're duff. With Sabian, not so much. They apparently get quite a lot of Sabian's back, many because they don't sound like they're supposed to, or because they get damaged within weeks of buying them.

Now I rate his advice highly, he's very knowledgeable. After listening to many, many cymbals online and in the shop I've narrowed it down to Paiste Alpha (mixture of rock, metal edge and sound edge cymbals) or Sabian AAX (mixture of regular, xplosion, and stage). I have to admit I think the Sabian's sound just that tad better than the Alphas. If I had infinite money I'd probably go for Paiste Twenty's but I think my budget just might not stretch that far.

So, long story short; is there such a thing as a bad Sabian? Has anyone ever bought a Sabian and had to take it back because it didn't sound right, or it got damaged in the first few hours of playing on it? Similarly any such stories about Paiste?
I'm only looking for the high end cymbals, I'm not surprised if an entry level cymbal cracks when a would be metal drummer plays on them ;o)

Thanks in advance for your feedback!

ps.: I'm not looking for advice on the sound, I'm quite happy with what I've heard and happy picking which ones go with my sound, I'm purely looking for advice on build quality :)

[cornelius]

I find Sabian quality as good as any cymbal company. They're QC is two, sometimes three people before a cymbal is shipped out - they look for physical as well as sonic imperfections.

I've played Paiste for years, and I find their cymbals not nearly as durable as Sabian or Zildjian. This applies to 2002, Giant Beat Dark Energy and Signature.

I've never had to return a Sabian for sound quality (if it sounds good in the store, it sounds good in my studio) or breakage. If they're getting Sabians back because they "don't sound like they're supposed to" or due to breakage, then it sounds like they're in the hands of inexperienced players - not a reliable source.

I like Paiste, but IMO AAX is in another league than Paiste Alpha... I'd stay away from a "semi pro'' set of cymbals - if you want to save $$, go for used pro level cymbals... You'll save money in the long run and have better sounding cymbals...

[caddywumpus]

I started out drumming on Sabian cymbals...B8s (which did their job when I was first learning...), and I moved up to AA crashes, and eventually HHX Evolution hats/crash/splash with an HHX Stage Ride. Then, I started branching out.

My take: After playing some of these cymbals for 12+ years now, they still sound good and they haven't broken. Good quality in my opinion.

...but, yes, there are bad Sabians, just like there are bad Zildjians, bad Paistes, bad Meinls, etc. It's very hard to do perfect quality control inspections when the cause of most manufacturer's defects are microscopic and inside the cymbal where you can't see them.

[Mr VK]

Thanks for the replies thus far :)

On the semi-pro vs pro side, Alpha's seem to be on the edge, some say they're semi pro some say pro. I'm going on what I like, I considered PST-8 from a budget point of view, but then decided that I'm going with Alpha or AAX as they just sound better. Sure they're twice the price, but you can hear that difference. I'd buy Twenty's but I think my wife might have something to say about that ;) (although I'm still considering getting the basics in Twenty and then building up, but with a studio session imminent I could do with replacing 5-6 cymbals in one go)

[DrumEatDrum]

I've worked in 4 drum shops.

Sabian was always a strong seller, and I've sold way more Sabian's than Paiste's over the years. Rarely had any problems with returns. Sabian customer service is excellent (as least here in North Amercia).

Zildjian/Sabian/Paiste all make great products. Any perceived difference in quality is a matter of personal taste.

For every person who says one is better than the other, you are sure to find someone else with the exact opposite opinion.

[choki]

Paiste seems to have more consistency with their cymbals, but I've heard they break a little more often. Paiste cymbals are usually more expensive as well. I've found Sabian and Zildjian to be pretty inconsistent. There are more than 3 brands of cymbals, so I would advise you to just go out and find the best sounding cymbals you can that fit your budget. Drummers seemed to have an overly developed sense of brand loyalty, which really isn't necessary unless you have an endorsement deal.

[makinao]

Originally Posted by Mr VK

Now I rate his advice highly, he's very knowledgeable.

He may be knowledgable, but as long as he is inside the store, he is pushing anything with a higher profit margin, which in this case might be Paiste.

[larryace]

Originally Posted by makinao

He may be knowledgable, but as long as he is inside the store, he is pushing anything with a higher profit margin, which in this case might be Paiste.

+1 on this.
Professional bias. Sounds fishy what he said.

[Tyger]

yup pretty much agree with what everyone has said. Also depends on how the player plays, and how often he/she plays.

Bottom line if you like the sound just go for it.

I had Alphas for a short time and regret selling them, however I did get Twenty's after :)
For the price and amongst B8 cymbals they are hard to beat. With that being said take a look at the Sabian XS20's, they are very good cymbals for the price range as well.


Oh and to answer your question...is there a bad Sabian...YES! Sabian Solars! hahaha! with age they get worse and change colour dramatically! No offense to those that own them, but sorry they are just really bad cymbals :) I have Solar 13" Hats, 16" and 18" crash that came with my first probeat kit.

[Solaris]

I've played all 'big 3' cymbal companies, and out of all of them I've found Sabian to be the most durable and also sound the best. I've broken Paiste Crashes within the first year of owning them, while I now have Sabian cymbals that have last 2 and a half years without any cracks or damage.

[tard]

Originally Posted by makinao

He may be knowledgable, but as long as he is inside the store, he is pushing anything with a higher profit margin, which in this case might be Paiste.

I have to agree with this too, Ive been beating my current set of AA's AAX's and HH's for over 14 years with no problems and have been playing Sabian for 33 years and only had one cymbal start to crack and it was due to abuse (long story) and had nothing to do with the quality of the cymbal.

[audiotech]

Most of the time it will be the drummer that's responsible for a cymbals longevity, not the manufacturer.

Dennis

[steverok]

Originally Posted by Solaris

I've played all 'big 3' cymbal companies, and out of all of them I've found Sabian to be the most durable and also sound the best. I've broken Paiste Crashes within the first year of owning them, while I now have Sabian cymbals that have last 2 and a half years without any cracks or damage.

Sorry, but I'm not, at all, impressed about a cymbal lasting 2 years without cracking. A cymbal should last a lifetime without cracking. I often see drummers bashing on cymbals to the point of annoyance. It gives me a headache. Cymbals sound so much better when played with touch and feel. Doesn't mean you have to tap on 'em, just hit 'em with some love. Hopefully you know what I mean ...

[kars2010]

Couldn't agree more with what you said

[Mr VK]

Thanks for all the responses, nice to see such a discussion forming.

Someone mentioned inconsistency and that's what the guy in the shop was talking about too. He said that Sabians and Zildjians are inconsistent whereas Paiste is very consistent ("There's no such thing as a bad Paiste").

Of course I don't know what his motivation is. He said he's worked for Sabian for several years, used to play them but has switched to Paiste himself and never looked back. So it could be that he's particularly brand loyal, or even an endorser (I should look that up) and is therefore pushing Paiste.

Or as someone pointed out, it could be where his biggest mark up is. Although he was pushing me to wait for PST-8 to come out rather than buying something I'd regret so I have the feeling he wasn't particularly money motivated in our conversations, also through other things he said. Or he could be an awesome salesman and is very good at hiding that fact and coming off as a drummer talking to a drumming buddy.

In terms of brand loyalty, not an issue for me. I play Zildjian at the moment, ready to ditch them. I've listened to all the big brands, Meinl I love the Generation-X stuff but don't really like any of the basic sets, Sabian as I say I like AAX, don't like XS-20s that much, Paiste Alpha or Twenty, awesome. Dream you can't really get here in the UK, or I've never seen them in a shop anyway. Zildjian, just don't really like their sound, find it too refined for my playing style, too much pop or jazz sound. So I'm open to try any cymbal by any brand, but thus far I've set my sights on Alphas or AAXs (possibly Twenty's).

[makinao]

So what is it? Build quality? Durability? Or consistency?

If its consistency: Sabian (and Zildjian) b20 cymbals really are more inconsistent soundwise than Paistes, spacially their b8s. But another way of looking at it is that each Sabian/Zildjian b20 is unique and has its own identity, whereas Paiste b8s will sound similar if not indistinguishable across a particular model. Its your choice, do you want to be different or consistent?

Finally, he's suggesting PSTs? You obviously have a good idea of the sound you are looking for, as I can see some kind of connection between the sound of Alphas and AAXs. But AFAIK, the sound of PSTs seem very far from that. So I can't understand why he's pushing you in that direction.

P.S. What Zildjians are you playing?

[Mr VK]

Originally Posted by makinao

So what is it? Build quality? Durability? Or consistency?

If its consistency: Sabian (and Zildjian) b20 cymbals really are more inconsistent soundwise than Paistes, spacially their b8s. But another way of looking at it is that each Sabian/Zildjian b20 is unique and has its own identity, whereas Paiste b8s will sound similar if not indistinguishable across a particular model. Its your choice, do you want to be different or consistent?

It's been a few weeks since I was in that shop so don't quote me on it. He mentioned inconsistency and he mentioned that lots of them came back compared to Paiste. Apparently Zildjians come back even more often.

I find slight inconsistency one of the beauties of hand hammered cymbals, it shows that an artisan has been doing it, rather than a machine which stamps each out exactly the same. I guess as long as you hear the actual cymbals you're buying in the shop then you shouldn't get one that sounds sub-par compared to what you heard.

Originally Posted by makinao

Finally, he's suggesting PSTs? You obviously have a good idea of the sound you are looking for, as I can see some kind of connection between the sound of Alphas and AAXs. But AFAIK, the sound of PSTs seem very far from that. So I can't understand why he's pushing you in that direction.

Yeah, he said that the PST-8 were really good value for money, sound like pro cymbals but cost intermediate money. I've listened to them online over and over but I just can't like them anywhere near as much as the others.

Originally Posted by makinao

P.S. What Zildjians are you playing?

I'd rather not say ;)
ZBTs, first set I ever bought. Was good enough then, not very good now :) I've also got a Wuhan splash and china. Even though Wuhan kit cymbals are rubbish, their splashes are the only ones I've ever heard that actually sound like a splash rather than a small crash, and their chinas are just pure noise, which in my opinion a china should sound like :)

[cornelius]

I played Paiste for a while (still have a couple that I'll hold onto for a while), because I was fed up trying to find good Z's. But I've moved on...

Anyway, try to get some more opinions/advice from other stores, if you can. I mentioned AAX was so much better than Alpha because it's better to go for pro level cymbals - and I still say that used is a good way to go. If you like Paiste, try to find something higher up in the food chain.

You can tweak an entry level kit to sound pretty good - but you really can't alter a bad sounding cymbal to sound ''better''.

[NUTHA JASON]

is there such a thing as a bad sabian? half the cymbals on bozzios kit for one. lol
j

[HMNY]

Welcome fellow Brit!

I have been happy with my Sabians, XS20 cymbals, and AA hats. I would be intrigued to learn from the statement "a lot of Sabians come back", of which line is he talking about, and (sorry if I missed this) are they damaged, or not sounding as the buyer expected when they got home to their kit?

[Typo]

You're basing your opinion of Zildjian on ZBTs? Not a good idea, considering they are Zildjian's worst cymbals. Paiste PST8 and Alpha are intermediate; if you want to go the Paiste route, I suggest 2002, especially great for hard rock.

Sabian AAX is a great choice. The X-Plosion crashes are clean and full.

It's my opinion that the guy you're talking to is either an airhead or a salesman. Recommending you intermediate level cymbals and saying Sabians aren't as durable as Paistes? I would disregard all of his advice if I were you.

[Ekim]

The only "drum store" in Indianapolis IMO ws "Drum Center Indianapolis". IIRC, I believe they told me Sabian and DW's customer service were tops in their books.

I've destroyed a few Sabians, but that was because of my awful technique (gripping very tightly and slamming the Hell out of the brass!). Since adjusting that, I've yet to destroy another of their cymbals.

[Solaris]

Originally Posted by steverok

Sorry, but I'm not, at all, impressed about a cymbal lasting 2 years without cracking. A cymbal should last a lifetime without cracking. I often see drummers bashing on cymbals to the point of annoyance. It gives me a headache. Cymbals sound so much better when played with touch and feel. Doesn't mean you have to tap on 'em, just hit 'em with some love. Hopefully you know what I mean ...

Well, 2 years and counting, as my oldest Sabian is only around 2 1/2 years old.

[Leto1313]

All the 3 have their place. For me not one brand could fill any set totally.

I love my
Sabians:
XS20 Rock Hats
16" Metal X crash
Paragon 22" ride

Zildjian:
18" Oriental China

Paiste:
18" Pst5 rock crash.
20" PST5 Ride (used as a crash)

The pst5 hats were good closed open a bit abrasive, destroyed 3 A custom crashes, the 18 metal x crash was a bit over the top for my taste, wuhan china, and pst5 china broke, and sounded too high pitched in that order. The PST5 Ride crashed so easily I moved it over to a crash. I know its a mix of (treasure and trash) but as everyone says above sound is subjective.

[Kg_lee]

Sabian has probably the largest cymbal catalog I've ever seen but not all their cymbals sound all that great. I've heard some really good Sabians and I heard some that had horrible tone and no sustain and I'm talking about the AA,AAX,HH, and HHX lines. Sabian I believe makes the best chinas of all cymbal makers, just something about them that no other company can capture. I own a couple Sabians but it took a while to find the ones that shimmered and sustained.

[MikeM]

There is definitely such a thing as a bad Sabian. I think I have two.

The first is a 20" AAX Xplosion Crash that somehow is really dark and dead. I don't remember it sounding that way in the store. Actually, I was comparing to a half dozen 20" A Custom Crashes and I thought they were all too bright, so the Sabian in comparison seemed like the right choice. Got it on my kit and it seemed a little lifeless. I gave it some time and finally concluded that I didn't like it. I called Sabian and told them that I think this think went dead somehow after I bought it and the guy said they can only replace cracked cymbals, not one's that people simply don't like. So I set out trying to break it within the year and a half left on the warranty. No dice. I beat the snot out of it but it wasn't enough. It survived and I still have it, but it doesn't spend much time on the stand.

The second one is an 19" HHX Xplosion that feels like a manhole cover. I've played the AAXs and really liked them because they have a thinner feel to them, but the HHXs feel stiff in comparison. It's possible that Sabian makes the HHX version a little thicker so that they'll still project, but it makes them play heavier.

I have an 18" HHX Xplosion and it plays kinda heavy too, but for some reason, I like that one. I also have a love / hate relationship with my 21" AAX Stage Ride. Fortunately, I'm on the love swing of the pendulum at the moment...

[jingscrivenshelpmaboab]

Out of all the drummers I have spoke to at the studio, rehearsals and gigs, the general consensus is that Paiste are by far and away the LEAST durable. The most durable I have heard of are Sabians and Meinl. I personally have 2 Sabian Artisan ride cymbals, and they have done me really well, being played extensively at gigs and recordings etc.

[Kg_lee]

Originally Posted by MikeM

There is definitely such a thing as a bad Sabian. I think I have two.

The first is a 20" AAX Xplosion Crash that somehow is really dark and dead. I don't remember it sounding that way in the store. Actually, I was comparing to a half dozen 20" A Custom Crashes and I thought they were all too bright, so the Sabian in comparison seemed like the right choice. Got it on my kit and it seemed a little lifeless. I gave it some time and finally concluded that I didn't like it. I called Sabian and told them that I think this think went dead somehow after I bought it and the guy said they can only replace cracked cymbals, not one's that people simply don't like. So I set out trying to break it within the year and a half left on the warranty. No dice. I beat the snot out of it but it wasn't enough. It survived and I still have it, but it doesn't spend much time on the stand.

The second one is an 19" HHX Xplosion that feels like a manhole cover. I've played the AAXs and really liked them because they have a thinner feel to them, but the HHXs feel stiff in comparison. It's possible that Sabian makes the HHX version a little thicker so that they'll still project, but it makes them play heavier.

I have an 18" HHX Xplosion and it plays kinda heavy too, but for some reason, I like that one. I also have a love / hate relationship with my 21" AAX Stage Ride. Fortunately, I'm on the love swing of the pendulum at the moment...

I had bought 2 HHX 19" crashes which I thought in the store sounded good. Once I got them on the stage and had them mixed with my Paiste's...they were lifeless and even the soundman said they were horrible and he was using condenser mic's on them. It was kind of bad when I'm playing and I can't hear my own cymbals in front of me. It's not all Sabians but I'm not pleased with most I hear on the shelf at the store.This is why I claim they lack sustain..some of them just don't shimmer as I would think how cymbals are to ring out.

[MikeM]

Originally Posted by Kg_lee

I had bought 2 HHX 19" crashes which I thought in the store sounded good.

Were they Xplosions? Something else? Just curious.

Originally Posted by Kg_lee

It's not all Sabians but I'm not pleased with most I hear on the shelf at the store.This is why I claim they lack sustain..some of them just don't shimmer as I would think how cymbals are to ring out.

That is how I feel about Sabian in general, though there are some pretty spiffy specimens of AAX Xplosions out there to be had. You need to hand pick those as much as any Zildjian, IMO. I also heard a few 18" Buddy Rich Prototypes over at Donn Bennett's and those things are smokin'! And I mean uber-amazing. (I should pick one up... )

But yeah, I'm 100% Zildjian at the moment. I've been toying with the idea of unloading the Sabians and dabbling in some Meinl Byzance pies. There are really nice specimens of those.

[Kg_lee]

Originally Posted by MikeM

Were they Xplosions? Something else? Just curious.

Yeah they were Xplosions. Amazing a cymbal that big just didn't sustain and cut through loud music.

[audiotech]

All cymbal manufacturers make duds now and again. The nice thing is, when you start to identify those cymbals as duds, your ears are becoming more attuned to nuances in sound. This is when your approach to buying cymbals should take on a whole new light. If you want cymbals that appeal to you, buy with your ears and not with your eyes. Take along some of your own cymbals when auditioning to buy new ones, this way you can make direct comparisons. If the prospective cymbal doesn't quite fit, ask for another of the same model because there are some major manufacturers, including Sabian, that have very wide tolerances when it comes to their cymbals sound.

Dennis

[evans_69]

Originally Posted by Kg_lee

I had bought 2 HHX 19" crashes which I thought in the store sounded good. Once I got them on the stage and had them mixed with my Paiste's...they were lifeless and even the soundman said they were horrible and he was using condenser mic's on them. It was kind of bad when I'm playing and I can't hear my own cymbals in front of me. It's not all Sabians but I'm not pleased with most I hear on the shelf at the store.This is why I claim they lack sustain..some of them just don't shimmer as I would think how cymbals are to ring out.

Funny you should say this, i had a pair of AAX-plosions and had the same results.. Lifeless and dull. I thought i just had a bad pair, but even others i tried after in my local shop sounded the same so i switched to A customs :D

[evans_69]

I .am only speaking in terms of the AAXplosions.. I like many of there other models

[Dre25]

Judge cymbals on how they sound in real life, not in recordings. I find alot of aax crashes horrible personally. I've played a really nice hand hammered crash but your friend is probably right. Get yourself some UFIPS, they make everything else sound pretty average ;)

[AndyMC]

Ok here is my breakdown of the major cymbal companies based on my experience and knowledge of metallurgy. Zildjian, Their B8 lines all suck, A/K reg or custom have a ton of great cymbals but they are not dependable either by model or line. Any given zildjian cymbal will not necessarily sound similar to another even same exact models or very close models. IMO nice zildjians sound the best but they are the hardest to find, try going used if possible the older cymbals were made better. The Z line is ok, the Z custom line is quite nice and the Z3 line is terrible.

Sabian, IMO B8 Pros are the best cheap B8. XS20s are ok but only the hihats seem worth the money. However to me all of sabians higher lines (AA AAx HH HHx) sound like they tried to be As or Ks but didn't quite make it. However sabian has the coolest prototypes so check some of them out (I like Jojo Mayer's fierce line). And to me HHX is so far from actually hand hammered (comparing to my turkish K that was entirely made by hand) that its a joke.

Paiste, I have the least experience with them but 2002s and twentys sound great as do some signatures. The cymbals have a very different feel compared to Zil/Sab and shimmer wonderfully in the midrange (like an A custom but better). However Paistes (the ones I've heard) are rock cymbals so if you want jazz I would go elsewhere.

Now the metallurgy. B8 bronze is much more flexible that it can be machine formed and is much easier to predict how the metal will react. B20 on the other hand is very hard and brittle compared to B8, it requires more hammering and skilled work to turn into a cymbal. However because of the crystal matrix within the B20 alloy hammering can change its personality more. The hardness of B20 also is what gives it a "nicer" tone from more overtones, but makes them susceptible to cracking when overplayed. Also due to computers controlling all the hammering these days (even HH series only gets a little hand hammering at the end) there isn't as much feedback to the worker and they can't individualize each cymbal to bring out its best tone.

Being that you are in the UK take a look at Matt Nolan's cymbals, he is a cymbalsmith that hand hammers everything and makes some really cool different cymbals. Costs about same as the big 3.

And of course all cymbals should be bought in person by ear, and with fresh ears. After a few minutes like 2 or 3 of playing any drum or cymbal or loud music your ears will become overworked and you wont hear the accurate sounds. Also if you play mic'd up all the rules change because of how mics hear cymbals and occasionally the cheap ones are better.

Mr. VK if I were you I would get really nice hats ride and one crash then add on once you are used to those cymbals. Don't worry about breaking them, if they sound good and are played properly you have very little chance.

[tard]

Originally Posted by AndyMC

However to me all of sabians higher lines (AA AAx HH HHx) sound like they tried to be As or Ks but didn't quite make it.

You do realize that the Sabian HH are the Ziljian K's of old. The Canadian plant that Robert Zildjian received in the dispute was the plant with all the equipment and staff that was making the K's and basically were pumping out K's one day and then changed the stamp and printing and were pumping out HH's the next and it was a few months later before the first AA's were built. After they stopped making their cymbals in Turkey and up until the Zildjian brothers split company Robert made the hand hammered K's in the Canadian plant and Armond made the automated anvil A's in the US plant. I live 3 hours from the plant and my parents knew someone that worked there. In 1981 ( I had only been playing for a couple years by then) he came to visit and brought a set of heavy hats stamped HH (originally destined to be K's) that had been built and hammered but not lathed or stamped several months before the name change by Vinnie who was one of the master cymbalsmiths brought over from Istanbul to build the K's in Canada when production stopped in Turkey. He continued to be their 1st master cymbalsmith into the late 80's doing most of the hammering and tuning on the HH line of Sabians. After things were settled in 1981 Sabian had to purchase and set up automated equipment to build the AA line in Canada and Zildjian had to gear up to start building the K's in USA plant. I later dated a girl in my early 20's from Sackville NB that worked at Sabian and had filled in some of the blanks and told me that although neither company can state it as fact both companies use the same family recipe and techniques to build the 4 lines of cymbals AA, AAX, HH, HHX, and A, Custom A, K, and Custom K and the only inherent differences are those between each individual model and size as well as the normal differences in sound due to inconsistencies that occur even between cymbals of the same model and size.

[MikeM]

Originally Posted by tard

... and told me that although neither company can state it as fact both companies use the same family recipe and techniques to build the 4 lines of cymbals AA, AAX, HH, HHX, and A, Custom A, K, and Custom K and the only inherent differences are those between each individual model and size as well as the normal differences in sound due to inconsistencies that occur even between cymbals of the same model and size.

I don't mean to sound combative or anything, so please don't take this that way ... while that may have been true in the beginning (and I don't know that it was), IME it most certainly is not true now. I've played an awful lot of Zildjians and Sabians over the last 30 years and I can tell you that, especially now, there is a lot of fundamental difference between the two. It doesn't matter if you're looking at K, KC, HH, HHX, A, AC, AA, AAX, etc... if you play enough of each, you can really hear a fundamental difference in the metal that can only be a difference in recipe. Of course, both cymbals have a lot of variation, but generally for a given size and weight, Zildjians tend to be brighter and often harsher while Sabians tend to be warmer but often duller with some clangy-ness. Again, this is independent of which lines you're looking at.

But like I said, this has just been my experience. I'm mostly in the Zildjian camp, but I bought my first Sabian back in '85 (a 22" Medium Ride - what would later become an AA) and it was very similar to my Zildjians (so perhaps they did use the same recipe at first). I've been mixing and matching the two ever since. But while my Zildjians get played to death (literally until I break them), I've never cracked a Sabian. I don't know if that's because they're more durable or because I sell them first (I have 4 at the moment and am planning to sell at least 2 of them). I can count on one hand the number of Zildjians I've sold off.

[AndyMC]

Originally Posted by tard

You do realize that the Sabian HH are the Ziljian K's of old.

I know my history but no one can say Sabian HH sound like older Ks, they just don't sound alike at all other than they are dark cymbals. Even new K's don't sound like older K's, they keep making them too thick, had to go K custom dark to get the sounds I wanted. Not to mention even old K's are just an imitation of the real Turkish K's. They just don't put in the individual craftsmanship they used to, but I'm not sure it is economically feasible these days. Both companies are resting on their laurels which is why the market has opened up and in time we will have opinions on them too.

[Pollyanna]

When I look for cymbals I just tap everything in the shop. Don't care what brand.

If your budget's tight Staggs are very inconsistent and the best of them are great value for money.

[tard]

Originally Posted by AndyMC

I know my history but no one can say Sabian HH sound like older Ks,

Late 70's K's and early 80's HH's were built by the same people with the same equipment at the same plant, and like I said earlier the stock pile that were build as K's but didnt get polished or stamped as K's got polished, stamped ad sold as HH's. But some people will always dispute that fact the same as people still argue that Suzuki Sidekicks and Chevy Trackers, Pontiac Vibe and Toyota Matrix, as well as the Ford Ranger and Mazda pickups are different even tho they are built with the same parts by the same people in the same plant.

Originally Posted by Pollyanna

When I look for cymbals I just tap everything in the shop. Don't care what brand.

+1 on that!!!