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  #81  
Old 02-27-2012, 08:36 AM
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larryace larryace is offline
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Default Re: Single ply batters

Pete I hate to tell you this but clear emperors are a 2 ply head.

*runs for cover*
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  #82  
Old 02-27-2012, 01:02 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Pete I hate to tell you this but clear emperors are a 2 ply head.

*runs for cover*
Larry...I know that lol, You have me confused now?
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  #83  
Old 02-27-2012, 06:31 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

Larry - I'm surprised you use a double ply for your snare. Maybe its because I have an acrolite, which is pretty dry, but I can't imagine putting a 2 ply on my snare. A single ply on a snare allows more tones to come out of the drum. It gives the drum energy. Idk it just seems wierd that you'd advocate single plys on everything but your snare. Is it a durability issue, or do you like the 2 ply sound better for your snare.
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  #84  
Old 02-27-2012, 06:31 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

Sorry Pete, I misunderstood your post. Carry on lol.
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  #85  
Old 02-27-2012, 06:39 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by DFL View Post
Larry - I'm surprised you use a double ply for your snare. Maybe its because I have an acrolite, which is pretty dry, but I can't imagine putting a 2 ply on my snare. A single ply on a snare allows more tones to come out of the drum. It gives the drum energy. Idk it just seems wierd that you'd advocate single plys on everything but your snare. Is it a durability issue, or do you like the 2 ply sound better for your snare.
For your Acro, (5" deep, aluminum shell) you probably have the best head on there, agree for the Acro. The rules I apply to my toms are different than my snare, and kick for that matter. IDK, everytime I put on a single ply batter on my snare, it just sounds too thin to me. I think if I played a 5" deep snare, a single ply might work better. But I play 6.5's exclusively, and to my ear, a single ply doesn't have the nuts that a 2 ply head has....on a 6.5" snare drum. I don't think I'd put a 2 ply on an Acro either. Those drums need to be lively as possible. I have enough ring and body to spare with a deeper shell that the 2 ply head gives me the oomph I crave. Yes it's all about the sound first. Durability...I don't select for that.
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  #86  
Old 02-27-2012, 06:50 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

I'm using a Remo "Vintage A" coated on a heavy brass snare. Sounds great to me. It seems to be the best of both worlds seeing as how it's 2ply-but only .5 mil thicker than a regular Ambassador.
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  #87  
Old 02-27-2012, 07:03 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by Jeremy Bender View Post
I'm using a Remo "Vintage A" coated on a heavy brass snare. Sounds great to me. It seems to be the best of both worlds seeing as how it's 2ply-but only .5 mil thicker than a regular Ambassador.
If I have my facts straight, most 2 plys are only .5 mil thicker than single plys already. 2 ply heads like Emps and G2's are made with 2 - 7.5 mil layers, so the Vintage A's are no different than Emps in thickness. If I have my facts straight.
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  #88  
Old 02-27-2012, 08:16 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by mediocrefunkybeat View Post
Just to clarify, 'attack' is actually a term used by sound engineers to define the initial waveform that occurs immediately as a result of the action that triggers the vibrations, up to the first peak of the waveform's amplitude. On a guitar, the 'attack' would (to all practical purposes) be the sound of the plectrum hitting the strings, on a piano it would be the sound of the hammers hitting the strings. On drums, it is the sound of the stick hitting the drum head. It's a technical term with almost no ambiguity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthesizer#ADSR_envelope

Although the ADSR envelope is an approximation of waveform models, it is basically accurate.


There's two aspects to consider with 'attack' - as shown in the graph.

First - there's the 'time' aspect, which is shown horizontally on the X axis. The shorter the time taken to reach a given amplitude, the quicker the attack. Drums normally have an extremely short attack time compared to most other instruments. With other instruments, a slow attack time can produce a 'swell' - similar to a cymbal swell using soft mallets.

Second - there's the 'amplitude' aspect, which is shown vertically on the Y axis. A harder hit produces a greater amplitude.

Actually - a 3rd aspect could be that different frequencies have different attack and decay characteristics (initial fundamental, frequencies that sustain or ring for different amounts of time, and so on). But I don't think that's part of the discussion here.

Both could be easily measured by running a mic'd drum's audio into a computer with a suitable program. But I haven't done it - so have little else to add, ha ha.
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  #89  
Old 02-27-2012, 08:39 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Sorry Pete, I misunderstood your post. Carry on lol.
LOL...thanks Larry! To clarify what I babbled about in my post is that I was scared to go with a single ply's as batters in the past all out of pure ignorance ;-) Now I look at single ply's with a whole new outlook and most of this is probably due to me spending so many hours practicing tuning.

I'd like to hear if anyone has tried single ply's on saturns yet and what they think of them
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  #90  
Old 02-27-2012, 08:46 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by PeteN View Post
I'd like to hear if anyone has tried single ply's on saturns yet and what they think of them
I've done it. Just clear ambassadors and G1s. They sound good, very fresh and clear. They feel louder behind a band. I suggest you just give it a go.
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  #91  
Old 02-27-2012, 09:15 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

I've been lovin the coated ambassadors over clear ambassadors for some time now.

I bit of a warmer tone but same glorious attack and resonant full sound as clear/clear

I may never go back to 2 ply heads - however I had the attack single ply clears on and they got severly dented after just 2 hours of play! clear amb's seem much more durable and have a more "pingy" sound than the attacks.

I'm not a heavy hitter, I use 5b's.

My coated amb has had 20+ hours of abuse and not a single dent.

Attack heads are cheap, dent easy, but their collars are extremely rigid.

I may try evans g1's but for now I'm a remo ambassador guy all the way

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  #92  
Old 02-28-2012, 01:03 AM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

Thanks Kettles...are you still using them on your saturns?
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  #93  
Old 02-28-2012, 01:08 AM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

So are most of us using double ply batters just because they sound a bit dampened from the drivers seat over single ply's? Do most agree the toms will carry there "tone" further out to people when using single ply as batters?
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  #94  
Old 02-28-2012, 02:00 AM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

I never heard my kit out front when I had them on, but from the drivers seat they felt louder and as if the tone was stronger. My 16x16 floor tom especially.

Don't have them on at the moment, the last ones were just my stock reso heads that I replaced. After they wore out I put on the new G2's that I originally bought to replace the stock batters.

I'm not often impressed by the out-front tom sound that other drummers round here have, I guess most of them are using a 2 ply clear batter of some sort, so I'll give singles another go next time I renew my heads and let someone use a tom or two. This is at gigs with usually nothing more than a kick mic, by the way.
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  #95  
Old 02-28-2012, 05:09 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

2 ply batters sound better to the drummer, but they lose liveliness out in the room to my ear. I like a noticeable slap attack and a crisp, pure, unmuffled note loaded with overtones. A lively "out of control" tom tone. Single plys are the only heads that give me that satisfying tone, from out in the audience.
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  #96  
Old 02-28-2012, 05:27 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

Tried clear ambassadors on my Saturns once and it was a nightmare. Never again. Waaay to bright and "boingy" for me.
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  #97  
Old 02-28-2012, 05:41 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
2 ply batters sound better to the drummer, but they lose liveliness out in the room to my ear. I like a noticeable slap attack and a crisp, pure, unmuffled note loaded with overtones. A lively "out of control" tom tone. Single plys are the only heads that give me that satisfying tone, from out in the audience.
+1 on that. Properly tuned single ply heads sound incredible and much fuller with a good balance of everything. Even from behind the kit I now find 2 ply heads way too muffled and dead sounding especially after they are "played in". I find it much easier to tune a single ply to remove the overtones or even add a moon jell if needed but totally impossible to get resonance out of a head designed to sound like "cardboard" to my ears. BTW when you said overtones I believe you were actually referring to resonance, properly tuned singly ply herds will have lots of resonance with little or no overtones, full warm resonance = good, odd harmonic overtones = bad...lol

Last edited by tard; 02-29-2012 at 06:00 AM.
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  #98  
Old 02-28-2012, 05:54 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by scarlit View Post
Tried clear ambassadors on my Saturns once and it was a nightmare. Never again. Waaay to bright and "boingy" for me.
You know I've been thinking about having my saturn kit be at my band practice location and fitting it with single ply heads just to see if I can hear better from the drivers seat when striking the toms during fills. My band is tastefully loud if that makes any sense, lol
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  #99  
Old 02-29-2012, 02:26 AM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by sticks4drums View Post
Two ply on the bottom? I don't think many do that. Leave the tops and put singles on the bottom.
I don't know why more people do not try 2-ply over 2-ply, especially with all the pics I see of drums with rings, moongel, tape or some other muffling device. I bet if they put a 2 over 2 combo they would not have the need for any of that.
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  #100  
Old 02-29-2012, 03:01 AM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by nhzoso View Post
I don't know why more people do not try 2-ply over 2-ply, especially with all the pics I see of drums with rings, moongel, tape or some other muffling device. I bet if they put a 2 over 2 combo they would not have the need for any of that.
A single ply with a moon jell on the edge or a piece of tape only removes a bit of the high frequency overtones as opposed to a second layer of mylar on a 2 ply head which removes a full rage of frequencies as well as most of the resonance. A single ply with some dampening still has a lot more resonance and is much more lively and full sounding than a 2 ply, plus you can remove the dampening if need be as they play in. I play studio x over classic clear on all toms with a moon jell on my 16" and I find all 2 plys too dead when just used on the batter, I couldnt imagine how dead a tom would sound with 2 ply over 2 ply. We spend thousands of dollars to get rich, warm and resonant sounding toms and then kill it with 2 ply heads, why?
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  #101  
Old 02-29-2012, 03:16 AM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

Single plys are way too bright for many. Some of us like a fatter, more controlled sound. I get plenty of resonance and tone from two ply heads, I use clear G2's mostly. The increased durability is a big plus as well. Its all good.
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  #102  
Old 02-29-2012, 03:19 AM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by nhzoso View Post
I don't know why more people do not try 2-ply over 2-ply, especially with all the pics I see of drums with rings, moongel, tape or some other muffling device. I bet if they put a 2 over 2 combo they would not have the need for any of that.
Muffling rings, tape, moon gel is not needed most of the time, I believe most unwanted over tones are a result of improper tuning. Double ply on top and bottom just seems way overkill to me. All this dampening would force me to hit the drums harder when playing with a band and just seems counter intuitive.
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  #103  
Old 02-29-2012, 05:46 AM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by scarlit View Post
Single plys are way too bright for many. Some of us like a fatter, more controlled sound. I get plenty of resonance and tone from two ply heads, I use clear G2's mostly. The increased durability is a big plus as well. Its all good.
How can removing frequencies and resonance make it sound fatter? From the audience point of view a single ply is much fatter / fuller sounding. What it sounds like it from the drummers point of view is not what they actually sound like from 15+ feet away. What the 2 ply sounds like from the drummers point of view is basically what a single ply sounds like from the audience point of view. As for durability, I cant remember the last time I actually broke a head and I can play a studio x a lot longer before it looses its warmth and resonance and starts to sound like a 2 ply does as soon as you put it on, plus I find you have to hit a 2 ply much harder to get the tone and attack out of it which also reduces its life span. I was a die hard 2 ply player till I broke my leg one time and had to do sound while another drummer played my kit while filling in for a couple gigs and found they actually sounded like wet cardboard from out front, After experimenting I eventually found that studio x over classic clear gave me the warm fat resonant sound out front that I thought I had been getting all along with 2 ply and listening to them from the drivers seat. Plus I only change heads about every 10 to 12 months now instead of every 4 or 5 months but some of that has to do with Aquarian's durability as well.
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  #104  
Old 02-29-2012, 06:19 AM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

tard - is that with or without close mics on the toms?

As for Saturns, I threw the old clear single back on top of my 10x8 tom after posting about it the other day, still sounds fantastic. So much colour and clarity even though it's quite beat up and it keeps the nice round low end. I like the slightly higher pitch too, I always felt like my 10" tom sounded bigger than it was.
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  #105  
Old 02-29-2012, 06:35 AM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

There are, usually, two heads to every drum and the resonant head also affects the sound quality of the drum, not just the batter head. When I purchased my Gretsch Renown drums I wasn't pleased with the sound I was hearing, but I knew it could be vastly improved. The batter heads were Evans G2 clear and the bottom heads were a thinnish 7 mil head. I replaced the resonant heads with Evans G1 clear 10mil heads and the difference was night and day. They gained more warmth and resonance. Right now I'm using Evans G2 coated over G1 clears on those drums.

Dennis
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  #106  
Old 02-29-2012, 06:46 AM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

Do all Renown's come with those thin resonant heads? I just started working at a music store and today was tuning up a '57 Blue and noticed the resonant heads had nothing printed on them.

And I wish I had the money to buy it, damn thing is gorgeous.
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  #107  
Old 02-29-2012, 04:09 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by kettles View Post
tard - is that with or without close mics on the toms?
.
That was with having close mics on the toms. Without mics and and some reverb and delay the 2plys sounded even more like wet cardboard. I always mic my kit no matter where we play just to have the sound come from more than one spot on stage plus it allows me to pan the toms a bit to make the kit seem bigger, but now that I am using single ply heads I do not need to add effects to give them a full warm resonant sound as they now sound that way naturally. I also find the increased response of the singly ply head allows me to play with a lot more dynamics and ghost notes cut thru much better without getting lost.
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  #108  
Old 03-24-2012, 04:52 AM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Me too, but I wasn't too impressed with the G+'s, so I'm cautious. 7mil heads just dent too easily for me on toms, but work beautifully on my snare batters. If anyone gets hold of the G14's, post here & let us all know how they work out.

Anyone know when they're due? Evansprez?
I ordered the G14's today for my toms. they will ship Monday and I will do a sound byte for anyone interested.
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  #109  
Old 04-19-2012, 01:16 AM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

Hi all! Here's an interesting take on heads and tuning from the great Simon Phillips. These two Q&As were copied-paste from his site. Just thought I'd share this short but good read... Enjoy!

Question:
Hello Mr Phillips.You are my ultimate favorit drummer and iīm a huge fan of TOTO.I play drums in a rockband here in sweden where I live.I play on a new Tama Superstar kit (wich i love bytheway).My sizes are 12,13 and 16 inch toms, a 22 inch bassdrum and a 14 inch snaredrum.My problem is that i canīt the 12 inch tom and my snaredrum to sound good.My 12 inch tom is tuned very low but when i hit it it1s sounds dead.No ring or nothing.My other toms are tuned the same way but they resonate beautiful.Itīs kind of the same problem with my snaredrum.Itīs sing though but itīs not a nice sound.Just alot of bass and need more crack out of it.I use coated ambassadors on the toms and a tama head on my snare.Please help.Take care................Ludvig Schönborg

Simon
Well it sounds to me as thought you are tuning your 12" way too low. Remember that it is all a compromise and you have to find the best range of tuning that all the drums sound good in. I recommend using Remo Ambassador Clear heads - to me they give a purer fuller sound. Don't be afraid to tune your toms up and make sure the bottome heads are in good condition. if you can afford it replace the bottom heads with the clear ambassadors. I tune top and bottom head the same - it's a good place to start. The problem you will encoounter is the big gap in size between the 13" tom and the 16" floor. When you tune up the floor tom it will start to boom so you have to be careful. Let them ring too - no damping if you can help it. As for the snare - I use a Remo Ambassador Coated - quite tight. Again make sure the snare head is in good condition and make sure the snares are fitted properly. You don't have to have the snares too tight - again be careful not to take all the ring out - this just makes the drum sound boxy and quieter too. Best of luck!

Question:
Simon! I'm a swedish drummer and a big fan of your drumming! The combination of your drumming and your fantastic sound makes a perfect pair! Do you use a specific tone interval between batter head and resonant head on the toms? I've seen Bob Gatzen recommend to tune both heads to equal pitch and that works ok. But I find it easier to get a good overall sound if I tune the resonant head a quarter higher than the batter head (three full notes higher if you see what I mean, my english is not perfect....). What do you prefer. You have a marvellous sound and I understand that the shells and drums have a great impact on the sound but the tuning is always crucial isn't it?!
Best regards! / Fredric Medin

Simon
Hi Fredric,

Well I use the same method as Bob - I tune the top and bottom head the same. I use a lot of toms so I want each drum to sustain on one note. If you lift the pitch of one of the heads the sound will move between two pitches. However it is important what type of heads you use and whether they are the same thickness. I use Remo Ambassador Clear top and bottom. If you use a heavier head on the top then it is going to resonate at a different rate and therefore the pitch will not be constant. Having said that - it's all down to what you like to hear and getting the sound you want out of the kit.

:o)
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