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  #41  
Old 02-13-2012, 07:12 PM
sticks4drums
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Default Re: Single ply batters

Well two ply heads have better attack than single ply heads.
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  #42  
Old 02-13-2012, 07:23 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

Disagree about the attack factor. IMO, nothing makes that nice slap sound like a clear single ply head. 2 ply heads have more rounded bottom end from the throne, but the quality of tone is inversely proportional to the distance between the drums and the listeners ears, JMO.
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  #43  
Old 02-13-2012, 07:43 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

Well I have the proof in my basement. Come over and you can hear for yourself. :)
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  #44  
Old 02-13-2012, 09:46 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
The open mic drummers that come to my jam, they have it so good. How rare is that?
Larry....let's hope most of them appreciate drums without duct tape - hehe
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  #45  
Old 02-13-2012, 09:58 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by sticks4drums View Post
Well I have the proof in my basement. Come over and you can hear for yourself. :)
Something tells me that if I enter your cave...that's the last anyone will ever see of me. Nah, I'll just sit here and disagree lol.
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  #46  
Old 02-13-2012, 10:22 PM
EvansSpecialist EvansSpecialist is offline
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Me too, but I wasn't too impressed with the G+'s, so I'm cautious. 7mil heads just dent too easily for me on toms, but work beautifully on my snare batters. If anyone gets hold of the G14's, post here & let us all know how they work out.

Anyone know when they're due? Evansprez?
The G14's should be shipping within the next couple of weeks. Be sure to ask your local music store about them (make sure they're ordering some!).

Cheers
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  #47  
Old 02-13-2012, 10:31 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

Hello Evans guy. :) What has more attack, two ply, or single ply?
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  #48  
Old 02-13-2012, 10:36 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

Im not the evans guy ..lol, but single ply has more attack.
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  #49  
Old 02-13-2012, 10:38 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by tard View Post
Im not the evans guy ..lol, but single ply has more attack.
That's not what I hear and read!
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  #50  
Old 02-13-2012, 10:43 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by sticks4drums View Post
Hello Evans guy. :) What has more attack, two ply, or single ply?
"Attack" is kind of subjective, but generally, two-ply heads offer more attack than a single-ply head. This is often confused with responsiveness (how quickly the head responds to the attack of a stick) which is typically greater with single-play heads. That being said, tuning can often negate these "standards."

Cheers!
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  #51  
Old 02-13-2012, 10:48 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by EvansSpecialist View Post
"Attack" is kind of subjective, but generally, two-ply heads offer more attack than a single-ply head. This is often confused with responsiveness (how quickly the head responds to the attack of a stick) which is typically greater with single-play heads. That being said, tuning can often negate these "standards."

Cheers!
Thank you! :)
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  #52  
Old 02-13-2012, 10:51 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

Am I correct in assuming that all you guys with the 1-ply batters on your toms have 2-ply reso's or are you using 1-ply reso's as well?

I currently have 2-ply over 2-ply on my Yamaha stage customs (birch,falkata,mahogony) and was thinking of trying 1-ply's on the batters.

Then again it's almost time to wake the saturn from it's rest and throw on some Vintage Aquarians that I have been wanting to try also.
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  #53  
Old 02-13-2012, 10:55 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by nhzoso View Post
Am I correct in assuming that all you guys with the 1-ply batters on your toms have 2-ply reso's or are you using 1-ply reso's as well?

I currently have 2-ply over 2-ply on my Yamaha stage customs (birch,falkata,mahogony) and was thinking of trying 1-ply's on the batters.

Then again it's almost time to wake the saturn from it's rest and throw on some Vintage Aquarians that I have been wanting to try also.
Two ply on the bottom? I don't think many do that. Leave the tops and put singles on the bottom.
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  #54  
Old 02-13-2012, 11:01 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by nhzoso View Post
Am I correct in assuming that all you guys with the 1-ply batters on your toms have 2-ply reso's or are you using 1-ply reso's as well?
The standard tends to be to use a single-ply on the bottom regardless of what's on top. That being said, I've heard some great drum sounds from guys playing larger drums (16" & 18" toms) using two ply batters and resos.

I wouldn't typically recommend using a thicker reso than batter, since it will be tougher to get the reso head to move. In the end, there really aren't too many hard-and-fast rules when it comes to head choice. Experimentation can only get you closer to the answers, right?

Cheers!
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  #55  
Old 02-13-2012, 11:28 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by EvansSpecialist View Post
That being said, I've heard some great drum sounds from guys playing larger drums (16" & 18" toms) using two ply batters and resos.
Well, I can tell you that after running 2 ply over 1 ply on my drums for as long as I've owned them (and a few kits before it), that perhaps the most significant difference in going to single ply was on my 15" and 18" floors. Especially the 18". It's always been very difficult differentiating it from a bass drum-like "thud". With a single ply on there top and bottom, I'm now getting a very round sustained booooom out of it like never before (it's not even close) and I've been rocking this same kit for 12 years.
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  #56  
Old 02-14-2012, 03:24 AM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by sticks4drums View Post
That's not what I hear and read!
2 ply heads remove some resonance which may give the impression that there is more attack plus alot of people hit a 2 ply harder to get more volume and tone which again may give the impression of more attack but a singly ply is going to have a brighter / sharper attack because there is not a second head to absorb the impact. It is the same with people saying 2 ply heads are lower pitched but its because they remove some of the higher frequencies and from behind the kit will trick your ears into thinking its actually lower pitched but from 20 feet away the single plys are going to sound alot fuller and warmer sounding with more attack.

Last edited by tard; 02-14-2012 at 06:39 AM.
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  #57  
Old 02-14-2012, 03:37 AM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

I just played the proof a second ago in my basement. Even the Evans guy said so. Give it up dude. It's ok to be wrong. It happens to me all the time.
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  #58  
Old 02-14-2012, 05:05 AM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

You need to define what you mean by 'attack'. Are you talking about the slap of the stick against the head or the overall punchiness? 2 ply's on my Saturns have a stronger stick sound from my POV behind the kit, but 1 ply's are generally louder, and overall have more 'attack' from out front behind a band. In an unmiced situation, I'm talking about.
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  #59  
Old 02-14-2012, 06:34 AM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by sticks4drums View Post
I just played the proof a second ago in my basement. Even the Evans guy said so. Give it up dude. It's ok to be wrong. It happens to me all the time.
From behind the kit? One of the whole reasons I went to single ply head was because other musicians and sound techs told me the attack was getting lost from the audience point of view, after changing to singly ply I now get comments on the good balance between attack and resonance my kit now has.

http://www.molehillgroup.com/tuning1.htm
From the "choosing the right heads" section:

Single-ply heads have a sharp attack and a good amount of ring, but they aren't as durable as double-ply heads if you're playing really loud and hard. They are good all-around heads and are preferred for most recording and close-mic'd situations.

Double-ply heads have two layers of Mylar. This thicker constructions makes them dryer (less ring), diminishes the attack, and makes them more durable, which is important to hard rock drummers.

http://www.peelerdrumcenter.com/tech...rum_tuning.htm
From "basic drum head selection" section

Single ply drumheads
Tone quality: Crisp stick contact sound, fast responding (the flexibility of a single ply head excites the air inside the drum faster than a thicker, more "lazy" head.
Volume: Thinner heads always seem to be louder, especially in a loud musical setting, because the initial stick contact sound is more apparent, they have more overall "high" overtone content, and their flexibility allows them excite the airspace inside the drum more than a thicker head, all of which help them cut through an ambient threshold of surrounding music.
Overtone content: Thin heads usually contain more high overtones, which give them a crisp, cutting sound.

Double ply drumheads
Tone quality: Double ply heads have a more subdued stick contact sound, and have slower response than single ply heads (double ply heads are a bit "stiffer" than single ply heads therefore a bit more lazy in exciting the air inside a drum when struck).
Volume: Thicker double ply heads have a bit less volume than single ply heads because they have less stick contact sound and less higher harmonic content to contribute to the overall volume (even though most rock drummers prefer them for their durability and lower tonal quality).
Overtone content: Thicker double-ply heads tend to sound lower than single ply heads, not necessarily because they are tuned lower, but because they have less "high" overtone content and the remaining low pitched overtones are what remain to be heard most.

http://www.snaredrumreview.com/snare...um-head-guide/
From" snare drum head guide"

Single ply
Most factory heads are single ply and the most popular are the Evans G1 heads and the Remo Ambassadors. The sound is crisp on contact and the volume in loud. You’ll notice high overtones from a single ply snare drum head and a piercing attack with excellent projection.
Single ply heads are easier to tune for bright tones and more difficult to tune down for lower, more rumbling notes. The cause of this is the thinner, more flexible single ply construction that moves the air within the snare drum more quickly.

Double ply or 2 ply heads
These are often considered an upgrade because they offer more tuning options, especially on the low end. You don’t get the same sharp overtones, but depending on your style and the musical genre you’re playing, the trade-off might be worth it. Some of the most popular 2 ply heads on the market on the Evans G2 and the Remo Emperor or Pinstripe.
With a double ply head, you’ll notice a slightly dulled attack. Thick 2 ply heads are not as loud and don’t have as much sustain as single ply heads. Again, what you gain on the upside is a more controlled sound that you can tune to your customized preferences.


http://www.ehow.com/info_8350905_dru...recording.html

Single-ply heads -- made from a single, thin layer of Mylar -- deliver bright, resonant sound with greater attack, which tends to work with higher tunings

Composed of two layers of Mylar, double-ply heads, provide a softer attack and emphasize low overtones while dampening high ones, favoring low tunings.


http://www.netplaces.com/rock-drums/...hell-sizes.htm

You may use either single- or double-ply heads on the tom-toms. If you want more attack and articulation, you should try single-ply heads.

Last edited by tard; 02-14-2012 at 07:03 AM.
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  #60  
Old 02-14-2012, 07:59 AM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

Tard, I totally agree with you on this. I think part of the reason 2-plys get credited for having more attack is because the attack component is proportionally greater on a head with less resonance.

If we're assuming attack is the sound the stick makes when it comes in contact with the head, then it's going to be pretty much the same on both types. It will just seem more prominent on the head that's had it's resonant capabilities reduced. Also, there's no doubt that single ply heads react much faster and there's more richness to the sound. If that counts toward attack, then that puts singles ahead of doubles.

And Sticks, I know what your drums sound like; I've heard you play your white monstrosity and I know that you tune JAW, so understand that it's really hard for me to take anything you say on this with anything other than a grain of salt. It's okay for you to be wrong again. It's what I've come to expect.
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  #61  
Old 02-14-2012, 09:09 AM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

Mike M, what kind of kit are you using?
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  #62  
Old 02-14-2012, 10:04 AM
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It's a run-of-the-mill Keller maple kit (13x9, 15x14, 18x16, 24x14) made by a local named Jerry Garcia. But that isn't to say that it doesn't sound awesome because it does.
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  #63  
Old 02-14-2012, 11:03 AM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

http://www.evansdrumheads.com/EvDrum...?ActiveID=3591

The graphs on this page show the G2 has more attack over the G1...however I think it means that 'attack' makes up more of the overall sound. If I want punch and volume in an unmiced rock gig setting I go for clear 1 ply heads without a doubt,

I'd like to know how they get the results on those graphs, it doesn't seem very scientific. I think I'd rather see a waveform image to judge the sound.
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  #64  
Old 02-14-2012, 04:10 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

Well I guess myself, and all the drum head companies are wrong. Someone better notify them that they all need to change their websites. Sorry for being wrong again.
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  #65  
Old 02-14-2012, 04:30 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

Just to clarify, 'attack' is actually a term used by sound engineers to define the initial waveform that occurs immediately as a result of the action that triggers the vibrations, up to the first peak of the waveform's amplitude. On a guitar, the 'attack' would (to all practical purposes) be the sound of the plectrum hitting the strings, on a piano it would be the sound of the hammers hitting the strings. On drums, it is the sound of the stick hitting the drum head. It's a technical term with almost no ambiguity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthesizer#ADSR_envelope

Although the ADSR envelope is an approximation of waveform models, it is basically accurate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
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  #66  
Old 02-14-2012, 04:33 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

You are a sharp guy MFB. Wouldn't something that has more resistance to having its shape changed have a greater initial attack when struck.
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  #67  
Old 02-14-2012, 04:39 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

Not necessarily.

Sometimes the inherent flexibility of an object can generate high-frequencies, which is where attack is most defined. The classic example of this model is a very thin guitar pick (less than a .50) that produces a lot of attack against the strings compared to thicker guitar picks. I can attest to this, having played all kinds of guitar picks on just about every commercially available gauge of string on acoustic and electric.

Distance also becomes a factor with attack. Higher frequencies tend not to travel as far so what may seem like a lot of attack from two feet from the drum kit may not seem like as much ten feet away. It's entirely possible that drums tuned very low will sound to have a lot of attack very close but further back, this effect will be cancelled out because of the increased low-frequency content in relation to the tuning.

There are very few hard-and-fast rules about how attack is perceived.

EDIT: What I'm trying to say is that attack is susceptible to the same inverse-square laws as other frequencies but the effect is pronounced because of the inherent absorption rate of high-frequencies in most situations.
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  #68  
Old 02-14-2012, 05:04 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

The perception of the attack is the tricky part, as I said. I haven't played two-ply batters in years (at least seven) so in all honesty, I couldn't tell you which had more attack at given distances and tunings. When it comes to attack, there are a number of factors that will change how much attack a given head will give. These include tuning, distance from the head, the resonant head, the hoop, the mass of the stick, the shape of the stick's tip, the material that the tip is made from, the angle of the strike in relation to the head and probably at least a dozen more.

Thicker heads may give more attack but it also depends on the tuning. If you're setting up your heads at JAW, it's possible that there won't be a huge amount of sustain and that would equate to a greater proportion of attack in the overall sound of the drums and fewer cancelling frequencies from the sound. If you're tuning your drums even just a bit higher for greater sustain, the perception of attack decreases because it becomes a smaller percentage of the overall waveform.
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  #69  
Old 02-14-2012, 05:11 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

It doesn't really come down to opinion as much as it comes down to the circumstances of the perception. Waveforms are highly dynamic and the perspective that you hear them from may alter the fundamental impression - but that's got very little to do with opinion.
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  #70  
Old 02-14-2012, 06:38 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

Good timing on this post... Ive recently been considering switch to 1ply batters on my rack toms. I'm happy with the G2s i have on my floor toms, but I've never been totally happy with the sound I'm getting on the racks...
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  #71  
Old 02-14-2012, 07:07 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by Fuo View Post
Good timing on this post... Ive recently been considering switch to 1ply batters on my rack toms. I'm happy with the G2s i have on my floor toms, but I've never been totally happy with the sound I'm getting on the racks...
If you have the extra cash to throw down for single plies on your floors, I think it'll be worth the experiment because I noticed the biggest difference on my floors - especially the 18", YMMV.
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  #72  
Old 02-14-2012, 07:16 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

Does the same prove true for thicker single plys as opposed to a thinner double ply? Say, these new G14 heads against say a Pinstripe. A single 14 mil ply vs a double combined 12 mil ply.
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  #73  
Old 02-14-2012, 08:12 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by blastbeatkeeper View Post
Does the same prove true for thicker single plys as opposed to a thinner double ply? Say, these new G14 heads against say a Pinstripe. A single 14 mil ply vs a double combined 12 mil ply.
All other things being equal, a double ply has friction between the plies that has a muting effect. A similarly thick single ply doesn't have that effect. Also, based on something I read recently, a 14 mil single ply will be more resonant than 7 or 10 mil single because of its increased mass, though it may take more energy to get it going.
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  #74  
Old 02-14-2012, 08:39 PM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

But the tone between a 10 mil head and a 14 mil head will sound different. Sure you should get more sustain w/ a 14 mil head, but if the frequency range isn't to your liking...you have to see if you like the tone of a 14 mil single ply head. I did not when I tried it. I used an EC2 and removed the sticky tone control rings w/ a blowdryer. That left me w/ a 14 mil single ply head.
However the drum head companies term it, I prefer the frequencies, and the tone of single ply heads, as heard from the audience. They are crisper and not as muted as a 2 ply head.

Onstage, the 2 plys sound better to me, but I want it to sound good to the audience, so I use the singles.
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  #75  
Old 02-15-2012, 04:32 AM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
But the tone between a 10 mil head and a 14 mil head will sound different. Sure you should get more sustain w/ a 14 mil head, but if the frequency range isn't to your liking...you have to see if you like the tone of a 14 mil single ply head. I did not when I tried it. I used an EC2 and removed the sticky tone control rings w/ a blowdryer. That left me w/ a 14 mil single ply head.
However the drum head companies term it, I prefer the frequencies, and the tone of single ply heads, as heard from the audience. They are crisper and not as muted as a 2 ply head.

Onstage, the 2 plys sound better to me, but I want it to sound good to the audience, so I use the singles.
Aren't EC2's double ply??
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  #76  
Old 02-15-2012, 09:27 AM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
All other things being equal, a double ply has friction between the plies that has a muting effect. A similarly thick single ply doesn't have that effect. Also, based on something I read recently, a 14 mil single ply will be more resonant than 7 or 10 mil single because of its increased mass, though it may take more energy to get it going.
This is right.

I tried G+'s, and thought they had a plasticy sort of attack feel (stupid, I know, they're plastic Andy, so what did you expect?), but I seem to remember they're made from a different film. I could be wrong on that. I still have them, so maybe it's time for me to give them another listen. When the G14's come out, I'll certainly be giving them a shot, but as my toms are mic'd (either just overheads or close mic's), I'd take bets on me going back to my old G2 - G1 default :)
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  #77  
Old 02-15-2012, 09:31 AM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by PeteN View Post
Aren't EC2's double ply??
You're right they were EC1's, my bad, thanks Pete

As much experimenting I have done, I have stacks of used drumheads probably 5 feet high, I find that with the lowly single ply head for the toms, and 2 ply for the snare...nothing can beat it. So I'm done trying different heads. I know what I like. Agree with your "plasticky" sounding attack Andy, my impressions as well.
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  #78  
Old 02-15-2012, 10:02 AM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

Ooooh, just read the debacle over attack :) Everyone's correct!!! But both sides of the camp are talking about two different things. Probably best if we separate them by referring to slap (the commonly used drummer's definition of attack, as being the brightness/volume of the stick hitting the head), & attack (the accepted audio definition, being the speed it takes the drum to release it's full initial tone).

There, everyone happy?
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  #79  
Old 02-15-2012, 10:32 AM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
You're right they were EC1's, my bad, thanks Pete

As much experimenting I have done, I have stacks of used drumheads probably 5 feet high, I find that with the lowly single ply head for the toms, and 2 ply for the snare...nothing can beat it. So I'm done trying different heads. I know what I like. Agree with your "plasticky" sounding attack Andy, my impressions as well.
I'm with Larry on this one. Other than a few of my snare drums it's been 2ply over G1s on toms. My interest has grown regarding the G14 and will give them a try on my Birch/Bubinga just to see what all the hype is about.
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Old 02-27-2012, 03:04 AM
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Default Re: Single ply batters

In the past I would have never tried a single ply head as a batter but as of today I'm a believer!!!!!!!

The last couple of days I've been messing with 3 different 12" toms...

1) A gretsch new classic - Emperor Clear as batter/Evans G1 as reso
2) A mapex saturn - Emperor Clear as batter/Ambassador as reso
3) A pearl mcx masters - Ambassador Clear top and bottom

No Dampening on any of these

I have them all tuned nicely but the pearl tom has just the right amount of everything, hard to explain it lol. I think it has the most pure tone out of all the toms and I have a feeling it has something to do with a single ply as batter. If I'm wrong don't bite my head off too much!

The gretsch new classic with an emperor as batter sounds fantastic but I think it's just a little to muffled sounding, so the emperor is coming off tomorrow and getting a clear ambassador.

The saturn tom I'm hesitant to go with a single ply just because it sounds fantastic right now but man am I curious to try the ambassador or classic clear on it.

Feel free to express your opinions/thoughts

Thanks - Pete
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