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  #1  
Old 02-11-2012, 08:09 PM
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Default How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

As a "working drummer" & a drummer that started getting some back pain from lifting so much heavy gear, I've decided enough is enough!!

I've been carrying big heavy Yamaha double-braced boom stands that weigh between 12 to 15lbs for years now. I need pretty sturdy equipment because, for example, I will mount a 14" low tom, Crash Cymbal & X-Hat from the one stand & for the most part I play fairly high-energy sets. Having just taken on another load of heavy equipment, integrating some electronics into my live setup, I have decided to order some new cymbal stands on the basis they weigh nearly half of my Yamaha's.

The stands I have ordered are Gibraltar 5609 boom stands. I got one for a school I teach drums at & have been really impressed with it - the chrome is very high quality. Anyway, Gibraltar say they weigh 7.6lbs so it should make a real difference.

Any other drummers reached the same conclusion?
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Old 02-11-2012, 08:12 PM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

I have tamas heavy pro hardware but my kit usually stays in one place. For my next kit I'll probably get much lighter hardware like Ludwig's new atlas classic hardware.
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Old 02-11-2012, 08:36 PM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

Yes I've reached that conclusion too. I swear I could make a mint by re-thinking and building my own hardware. Like why don't they use aluminum? And what does double bracing really do? It joins at a common point anyway? Are the side forces that great? I recently went to DW single braced stuff. Not much weight savings TBH, a little. Not enough. Make them from aluminum for Pete's sake. Aluminum can be polished to look like chrome. Make them in available in different colors! It's stiffness not weight that counts. The weight to stability ratio should be a primary design consideration. You could incorporate velcro feet. Even wind would have a tough time with a velcro type foot. And of course, the whole reson for the cymbal stands existence, tiny, mini ball type, friction held, universal tilters. Gears? Seriously? Duh. I could design one hell of a cymbal stand. Or, a cymbal stand system. Something like a rack system for drum kits except it lays on the floor and lightweight boom stands click into it, wherever you want of course. You hang stuff from clamps off the boom stands, cymbals, toms, whatever you can get. Eliminates all the legs. I really don't like the look of hardly being able to see the drummer through all the conventional racks you see today. It would look more traditional.

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Last edited by larryace; 02-11-2012 at 09:02 PM.
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Old 02-11-2012, 08:39 PM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

We don't really see Ludwig hardware in the U.K unfortunately.

I do wish drum manufacturers would produce brochures like the Gibraltar catelogue... it lists the weight of all the stands. Superb.
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Old 02-11-2012, 09:32 PM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

I've been using Tama Roadpro hardware since I got my first decent kit - goddamn that stuff is heavy! I carry 2 x boom stands, 1 x straight stand, tom stand and my hi hat stand - thankfully I leave 2 more booms at home that I don't need for the bands I'm in (china and 19" crash).

The thing is - it's really sturdy stuff. If someone shows me something that is as sturdy as the Roadpro hardware then I'll switch to it, otherwise my back will have to suffer!
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Old 02-11-2012, 09:40 PM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

But does hardware have to be that sturdy? I think that's the question we're trying to answer. Who has ever had a single braced lightweight stand wobble and fall over because they hit a crash cymbal?
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Old 02-11-2012, 10:09 PM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

In my opinion, most hardware is way over engineered.

I haven't carried double-braced anything in over a decade and after 12+ hours per week playing in all sorts of settings, nothing has yet so much as wobbled.

I use the Yamaha 700 series single braced stuff - which is not super light but is about as heavy as I'm willing to carry. If I don't need a boom stand - it's a straight stand. Hey - an ounce saved is one less I need to carry.

For kicks, I think I'm going to put it on a scale next week and see what the weight truly is.
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Old 02-11-2012, 10:13 PM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

Quote:
Originally Posted by richkenyon View Post
As a "working drummer" & a drummer that started getting some back pain from lifting so much heavy gear, I've decided enough is enough!! Any other drummers reached the same conclusion?
Get a rack, or start working out.

Light weight stands are an option.

The heavy stuff has a different feel tho and cymbals do sound better on heavier stands if you care to notice.

I'd choose the work out thing, its a win/win.
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:16 AM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

When I gave my Mapex Saturn set to my church, I also gave all of my double-braced stands. All of the stands I use with my set are single-braced, except the throne. I have never had any problem with them at all. Peace and goodwill.
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:27 AM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

I had gone thru some hardware in the past but after switching to Dixon double braced hardware about 14 years ago I have not had any problems or needed any repairs. Plus my 4 stands support 4 toms, 8 cymbals, cow bell, tamborine, jam block and my second snare. I just dont see the point of paying more for hardware just cause it has a big name on it. Even the Pearl, Tama and Yamaha hardware I had in the past didnt stand up to the abuse that the Dixon has.

Last edited by tard; 02-17-2012 at 06:00 AM.
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Old 02-12-2012, 02:50 AM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

Been using yamaha double braced stands for 25+ years and the stuff weighs a ton!! But it lasts.

This one is interesting. Reminds me of what Neil Peart uses

http://www.polecatps.com/index
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Old 02-12-2012, 03:08 AM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Yes I've reached that conclusion too. I swear I could make a mint by re-thinking and building my own hardware. Like why don't they use aluminum? And what does double bracing really do? It joins at a common point anyway? Are the side forces that great? I recently went to DW single braced stuff. Not much weight savings TBH, a little. Not enough. Make them from aluminum for Pete's sake. Aluminum can be polished to look like chrome. Make them in available in different colors! It's stiffness not weight that counts. The weight to stability ratio should be a primary design consideration.
Larry, would you like to start business together? This is exactly what I've been thinking for years - especially about the aluminum. I'm a structural engineer! One of the reasons typical hardware needs to weigh so much is that it's made of very cheap metal. Another reason is that the sections are flat and need to be thick to provide lateral support. Think about speaker stands. They are much lighter and support heavier loads. In some places my band plays, we use them for the mains. I know I could design a better stand.

I own a licensed copy of AutoCAD.degrees. I have the technical background. If my day job goes south........
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Old 02-12-2012, 03:14 AM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

May want to look into Canopus and Axis for their stuff. It's supposedly high-tech, lightweight and the price reflects it.
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Old 02-12-2012, 09:21 AM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

I like the piece of mind using the heavier weight double braced stands, especially when they're also sporting a rack tom, crash cymbal and maybe a splash. I don't believe that I have a single braced stand in the lot, except maybe a snare stand. There is just too much else going on at a gig to let an additional 25 or 30 pounds diminish that piece of mind.

And yes, throughout the years, I've had several lighter weight stands knocked over, and not by my own accord. In some very precarious situations, I'll even use sand bags.

Some might believe this and some won't, but there is definitely a sonic difference between light weight stands and their heavier counterparts. With every opportunity I get, I'll swap out a drummers light weight stands for heavier stands in the studio. Every cymbal and every drum that's attached to a stand can make that stand vibrate or oscillate affecting the overall sound.

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Old 02-12-2012, 01:24 PM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

I switched all my cymbal stands over to the Gibraltar flat based stands. I'm trying to get one of the flat snare stands for my rack tom, but if I don't have a super heavy duty stand under my snare drum, it moves all over the place. I give it a work out. Otherwise though, I'm loving the light weight hardware thing.
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Old 02-12-2012, 04:38 PM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

Another thing to consider when dealing with hardware weight is quantity and attachments. Sure, you might have swapped out a 15-pound stand for an 8-pound stand, but if you have seven stands, you're still lugging 56 pounds of stuff into the gig. So you downsize all the way to two stands, but the two stands are now festooned with an extra 9 pounds of clamps and boom arms.

I downsized from my two side racks to three main stands, not counting snare and hats stands - two Yamaha 700s and a single-braced Tama stand base for my rack tom holder. Between these three stands and some clever clamping options, I fly four toms and nine cymbals. The two boom stands have some heft to them, but I usually carry them on their own. All in all I may not be breaking 40 pounds for hardware... and I'm always looking for more ways to downsize.
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Old 02-12-2012, 05:02 PM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmacc View Post
In my opinion, most hardware is way over engineered.

I haven't carried double-braced anything in over a decade and after 12+ hours per week playing in all sorts of settings, nothing has yet so much as wobbled.

I use the Yamaha 700 series single braced stuff - which is not super light but is about as heavy as I'm willing to carry. If I don't need a boom stand - it's a straight stand. Hey - an ounce saved is one less I need to carry.

For kicks, I think I'm going to put it on a scale next week and see what the weight truly is.
I did this for the 1st time ever yesterday & was shocked at the results. I used a nifty pully scale device that I use to weigh my bags for flights! My single-braced Yamaha boom came in at 12lbs, with a regular double-braced even more & the boom double braced stands at 15lbs. I won't tell you what my cymbal bag weighed! Of course, the issue with stands is you have to put them together into a large case - I've tried splitting them across two cases, but it still all weighs too much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Ismore View Post
Get a rack, or start working out.

The heavy stuff has a different feel tho and cymbals do sound better on heavier stands if you care to notice.

I'd choose the work out thing, its a win/win.
Not sure why you choose such a sarcastic tone in replying. I do care massively about the sound, which is why I play Sonor DeLite & Yamaha Maple Custom kits.I am not exactly out of shape thanks very much, but I do have a knee condition that makes lots of exercises impossible. Your idea of "working out" isn't necessarily a great suggestion to older drummers. I mean, why is this stuff SO heavy?

BTW - I have a major rack for my recording kit, but honestly I do not believe racks are the best solution for a working drummer. I have too many times (last night's gig for example) where the space I'm asked to set up in simply will not accommodate a rack. Then you have uneven floors, or you use a different configuration for different gigs... stands are far better & usually quicker to set up IMO. I used a Rack on the last tour I did, but that was proper stages & I needed a 7 piece kit + Octobans & a big cymbal selection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by konaboy View Post
Been using yamaha double braced stands for 25+ years and the stuff weighs a ton!! But it lasts.

This one is interesting. Reminds me of what Neil Peart uses

http://www.polecatps.com/index
Sure, but I'm a working drummer playing different kit configurations in all kinds of different size venues. OK if you're a touring drummer perhaps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiotech View Post
I like the piece of mind using the heavier weight double braced stands, especially when they're also sporting a rack tom, crash cymbal and maybe a splash. I don't believe that I have a single braced stand in the lot, except maybe a snare stand. There is just too much else going on at a gig to let an additional 25 or 30 pounds diminish that piece of mind.

And yes, throughout the years, I've had several lighter weight stands knocked over, and not by my own accord. In some very precarious situations, I'll even use sand bags.

Some might believe this and some won't, but there is definitely a sonic difference between light weight stands and their heavier counterparts. With every opportunity I get, I'll swap out a drummers light weight stands for heavier stands in the studio. Every cymbal and every drum that's attached to a stand can make that stand vibrate or oscillate affecting the overall sound.

Dennis
You bring up an interesting point. I do believe most double-braced stands are more stable & have had plenty of guitar players nearly knock my stands over, so stability is an issue. However, it's mainly a question of positioning the legs correctly relative to the most mass that is most critical. Can't comment too much on the sonic effects but am familiar with the issue regarding some rack systems.
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Old 02-12-2012, 09:37 PM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Like why don't they use aluminum?
The problem I see with aluminum being used for stands is that I dont think they would stay looking good for very long as chrome does. Chrome is very durable and cleans up very easily. I think if you transported 3 or 4 aluminum stands in the same trap case they would become marked and scratched up very quickly pus you would be more apt to strip out the threads on the clamps and adjustment pieces.
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Old 02-12-2012, 11:42 PM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

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Originally Posted by B-squared View Post
Larry, would you like to start business together? This is exactly what I've been thinking for years - especially about the aluminum. I'm a structural engineer! One of the reasons typical hardware needs to weigh so much is that it's made of very cheap metal. Another reason is that the sections are flat and need to be thick to provide lateral support. Think about speaker stands. They are much lighter and support heavier loads. In some places my band plays, we use them for the mains. I know I could design a better stand.

I own a licensed copy of AutoCAD.degrees. I have the technical background. If my day job goes south........
I would love to. Being a structural engineer...I mean what more qualifications would you want? I just get off designing stuff that I would like for myself.

This would be my design criteria:

2-3 lbs total weight
Universal ball tilters w/felts that don't fall off when upside down, and big easy levers for tightening and untightening them, plus a wing nut-less system for holding the cymbal on, that is as small and skinny as possible above the bell
Engraved markings instead of mem locks, saves weight
Highly polished lightweight thinwall aluminum tubes, skinny as possible, available in colors
Hook type velcro feet that grabs carpet, tip over protection to compensate for the light weight
Collapses smaller than the standard to 24" total length

Did I miss anything?

Even if it cost twice as much, I'd buy it.
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Old 02-12-2012, 11:48 PM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

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Originally Posted by tard View Post
The problem I see with aluminum being used for stands is that I dont think they would stay looking good for very long as chrome does. Chrome is very durable and cleans up very easily. I think if you transported 3 or 4 aluminum stands in the same trap case they would become marked and scratched up very quickly pus you would be more apt to strip out the threads on the clamps and adjustment pieces.
I think all these issues could be solved by good design. Like no threads. A different tightening system that uses a mechanism similar to the kind that closes a tool box. A plastic film could be bonded to the outside to protect the finish. Since most of it collapses together, in transport, only one tube would be exposed, and need treatment.
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Old 02-13-2012, 08:02 PM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

As to the original question----
I've been using DW 6000 series straight cymbal, and snare stand (for tom) for a couple years, and I've not had one single issue with any of it.
I even use a 24" ride cymbal that I crash, and the stand stays put just fine. I play pretty hard at times in my different bands, & have no issues at all with these stands.

The tube size are not tiny, but are small-ish (7/8, 3/4, 1/2). Great stands, 5 stars from me.

Ludwig's new Atlas stands have basically the same diams (but a slightly larger top tube diam.), so I doubt they'd go anywhere either.
I have a bunch of those on order (selling 2 snares took care of the bill!).

I'm also trying out the Atlas FB hat stand.
It's got the same tube diam as the DW 2 legger I'm using now, so if it's not wobbly (like the DW FB hat stand is) with this new leg clamping thing, and with the tube size, I'll buy it.

The FB Atlas snare stand has an infinite angle basket too, which is nicer than the DW stands geared basket I have now. The DW 6000 works great, but having the drum in exactly the spot I want is a better option.

I am selling a bunch of my double braced cymbal stands. I just don't use them anymore.
Once I get the Atlas stands, I'm putting the DW FB stands on my rehearsal kit.

I still use a larger stand for the snare because the single braced stand moved on me a bit. Just don't wanna deal with it, so I accepted another lb. or two. For one stand, big deal.

When you can have 3 stands in 1 hand, and they ALL feel like they weigh as much as ONE of the others....

Carrying the hardware case up/down my walkout stairs is easy now.
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Old 02-13-2012, 08:22 PM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

When I checked out the new Ludwig stuff at the NAMM show I was impressed. Anyone looking for simple flat-based cymbal stands and lighter snare and hi-hat stands should definitely check those out when they become really available and in stock in stores.

Sonor also makes these really cool flat-based cymbal stands that nobody really knows about. And of course, there's the DW flat-based stuff and Gibraltars' flat-based stuff. I agree that if you ARE mounting multiple things on one stand, then you need a bigger stand - double-braced if possible - it's just physics, I say.

But what's really frustrating is that in my area anyway, lighter hardware is just not stocked by anybody. Walk into a Sam Ash or a Guitar Center and what do they have? The heavy stuff. In fact, they'll sell you a Sound Percussion stand for alot less than you'd pay for a special order flat-based cymbal stand (The SP stands suck btw - after a while the wingnuts fail to really hold the stand in position). Your only choice may be Pro Drum out in Hollywood, who really stock stuff for the working drummers.
Unfortunately, although it's great that we have so many people into drumming, the fact that they're so influenced by the advertisements really affects what the real working guys need.
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Old 02-13-2012, 10:33 PM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

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Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
But what's really frustrating is that in my area anyway, lighter hardware is just not stocked by anybody.
Same here.

The last time I walked into Guitar Center (why I did, I'm not sure) the guy for the life of him could not understand why I didn't want a double braced cymbal stand. I left empty handed.
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Old 02-13-2012, 10:35 PM
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Same here.

The last time I walked into Guitar Center (why I did, I'm not sure) the guy for the life of him could not understand why I didn't want a double braced cymbal stand. I left empty handed.
Apparently every kid who goes into one of those stores already has a truck and his own road crew ;)
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Old 02-13-2012, 11:02 PM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Yes I've reached that conclusion too. I swear I could make a mint by re-thinking and building my own hardware. Like why don't they use aluminum? A..... Make them from aluminum for Pete's sake. Aluminum can be polished to look like chrome. Make them in available in different colors! It's stiffness not weight that counts. The weight to stability ratio should be a primary design consideration.
Both Sonar and Gibraltar have offered aluminum hardware in the past.
Both sold poorly.

The big issue was with the boom stands, they were too light. If you extended the boom, the weight of the cymbal would cause the stand to fall over. Even the non-boom stands had some issues. A pure aluminum is actually too light to be functional for most drummers.

However, what I have never understood is why they don't say, OK, steel is too heavy, aluminum is too light, so make stand where the base/tripod section is steel, but have the upper tubing be aluminum. The the problem of both materials is solved.
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Old 02-13-2012, 11:02 PM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

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Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
Apparently every kid who goes into one of those stores already has a truck and his own road crew ;)
Nah....
When you're real young, you just say "this is what I play, and nothing else matters" haha!

Double braced stuff is what everyone sees, and is now used to. Seems like it's gotten to where people question weather even good single braced stuff will "do the job".
Single braced Yamaha, Pearl, Tama, DW, etc... can handle pretty much what anyone throws at it.

I agree on multiple things on a stand though.
One good DB stand will hold a lot of stuff.

My set up is pretty simple these days. I pretty much have about the same amount of "stuff", but I already did the heavy thing, and the customized thing.
I still like the look of the customized hardware I did up, I just don't want to haul it anymore. The "simpler version" looks as nice to me, and it's waaaay easier to move.

I like the features on DW's FB stands with the tilter, space adjustment, memory locks...
None of the other stands have that, even though something like the Gibraltar is made great too, and I like the break tilter and their felts.
Memory locks were my BIG thing (for me) with the DW stands though.

Bo, did you happen to "try out" that FB hat stand at all, or just look at it?
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Old 02-13-2012, 11:09 PM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

I agree w/ Les - start working out. Your perspective of how hard the work is, schlepping gear, improves dramatically if you're fit. I was in terrible shape a couple of years ago...hauling gear was a frustrating chore. Now I actually enjoy it and always feel good from the workout, the next day.

That being said; I strap all of my crap onto a dolly, with a couple of bungee cords. Two trips; one for hardware and one for drums. Fast and easy. I'm working on a small, light ramp idea so I can just keep all the hardware on the dolly during transport, so there's no loading and unloading the hardware in and out of the SUV, in between.
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Old 02-13-2012, 11:10 PM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

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Originally Posted by KarlCrafton View Post
Nah....
When you're real young, you just say "this is what I play, and nothing else matters" haha!

Double braced stuff is what everyone sees, and is now used to. Seems like it's gotten to where people question weather even good single braced stuff will "do the job".
Single braced Yamaha, Pearl, Tama, DW, etc... can handle pretty much what anyone throws at it.

I agree on multiple things on a stand though.
One good DB stand will hold a lot of stuff.

My set up is pretty simple these days. I pretty much have about the same amount of "stuff", but I already did the heavy thing, and the customized thing.
I still like the look of the customized hardware I did up, I just don't want to haul it anymore. The "simpler version" looks as nice to me, and it's waaaay easier to move.

I like the features on DW's FB stands with the tilter, space adjustment, memory locks...
None of the other stands have that, even though something like the Gibraltar is made great too, and I like the break tilter and their felts.
Memory locks were my BIG thing (for me) with the DW stands though.

Bo, did you happen to "try out" that FB hat stand at all, or just look at it?
If you're referring to the Ludwig stuff at the NAMM show, yeah, I actually pulled it on to the floor and got my foot on it. It felt great. But it wasn't a real test of actually playing it. Although I think it would work out great, I can't say I've stomped on it for a gig, however.
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Old 02-13-2012, 11:23 PM
krustyone krustyone is offline
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

Aluminum CAN be chrome plated. Boom stands tipping over can be solved with a counter weight. Also using a quickly adjustable link between cymbal stands to tie them together would help with stabilization. Kind of like a telescoping double ended clamp.
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Old 02-14-2012, 03:49 AM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
I would love to. Being a structural engineer...I mean what more qualifications would you want? I just get off designing stuff that I would like for myself.

This would be my design criteria:

2-3 lbs total weight
Universal ball tilters w/felts that don't fall off when upside down, and big easy levers for tightening and untightening them, plus a wing nut-less system for holding the cymbal on, that is as small and skinny as possible above the bell
Engraved markings instead of mem locks, saves weight
Highly polished lightweight thinwall aluminum tubes, skinny as possible, available in colors
Hook type velcro feet that grabs carpet, tip over protection to compensate for the light weight
Collapses smaller than the standard to 24" total length

Did I miss anything?

Even if it cost twice as much, I'd buy it.
I think I am going to try this. Larry. I am going to start messing around with your ideas in some AutoCAD sketches. You and I are on the same page, especially about aluminum tubes. Velcro is a must. I aleady use it under my kick pedal and it works better than anything I've ever used for keeping my pedal and kick drum still. I hate heavy hardware, so I am motivated.
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Old 02-14-2012, 04:15 AM
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Coldhardsteel Coldhardsteel is offline
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

I enjoy my heavy hardware.

Then again, my 18th birthday is a few days away. But age and physical condition aside, I have this feeling about heavy hardware that just seems more secure. Maybe it's some Freudian masculinity thing, but I like having moderately hefty stands. Just solid.

Not to mention that lighter hardware tends to be more poorly constructed and held together. I save money in the long run by taking good care of heavy hardware than light hardware because the heavy stuff outlasts the light stuff for quite a long time.
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Old 02-14-2012, 07:28 AM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

Well made hardware can be made light or heavy. My Gibraltar flat stands are a few pounds each and have thinner tubing, but they hold my cymbals up just fine, and I play hard.
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Old 02-14-2012, 02:54 PM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

I went from my 6 piece Oak Custom kit with a rack system and a Town and Country van to a 4 piece Oak Custom kit with single braced HW and the Scion XB. Picked up a Gator rolling hardware bag and my back could not be happier. My throne is a Pork Pie heavy duty but I need that because I'm 250lbs. I do miss the fast setup of the rack system and at times I may set it up on certain jobs....may set it up? Not sure yet.

I'm 58 and doing well over 100 gigs per year and want to continue playing as long as I can so the more I can do to make that happen I'm all for it.

Anyone looking for a Gibraltar Rack?
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Old 02-14-2012, 07:51 PM
samdrum samdrum is offline
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

I use three of these for crashes and ride. Not heavy, not double-braced, but sturdy enough for as hard as I hit. And I really don't believe the nonsense I read in this thread that cymbals sound "better" on heavy stands. Puh-lease....if you want them to and convince your brain that they do then swell. Sorry, but no humans hearing (especially a drummer) is that sensitive to the ever so slight tonal differences of a crashing cymbal depending on stand thickness.

http://www.vintagedrum.com/item/Gibr...tand-ST8657710
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Old 02-15-2012, 12:35 AM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

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Originally Posted by samdrum View Post
Sorry, but no humans hearing (especially a drummer) is that sensitive to the ever so slight tonal differences of a crashing cymbal depending on stand thickness.

http://www.vintagedrum.com/item/Gibr...tand-ST8657710
Sorry, but I didn't see anything in your expert comments about a recording engineers trained hearing. This is where I based these comments on a controlled studio situation. Do you even know what oscillations are, what causes them and the influences they have on the recording process? I didn't think so.

BTW, I too can hear a differnce with hardware between that of light weight and heavier, more stable stands in live situations.

Dennis
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Old 02-15-2012, 01:16 AM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

Some of these posts beg the question: "how do we prove to others what we hear"? (and they don't)

The physics is that there is certainly a difference in the sound (free and sympathetic oscillations, vibrations) of everything - a crash cymbal on a Yamaha doudle braced, vs same on a Pearl single braced stand, and so on. Yep, a microphone will sense it, but will an ear drum...and how do we prove that.

The point of the thread is to save weight and effort. It might be worth the change sonically that we can argue we can/cannot hear.
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Old 02-15-2012, 03:26 AM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiotech View Post
Sorry, but I didn't see anything in your expert comments about a recording engineers trained hearing. This is where I based these comments on a controlled studio situation. Do you even know what oscillations are, what causes them and the influences they have on the recording process? I didn't think so.

BTW, I too can hear a differnce with hardware between that of light weight and heavier, more stable stands in live situations.

Dennis
Dennis, as much as I respect your stature as an audio engineer, that's got to be a bit of 'tweezing', don't you think? To me, it's all about the end result of the music being made by the musicians you're recording, and the vibe they're producing. You really think a difference in oscillations that are dependent on the type of stands being used is going to make that big of a noticeable difference?

If that were indeed the case, then by virtue of the times they were recorded in, the light stands would be the way to always go because they would've moved with the instruments and enabled them to breathe more. But then what do you say to someone like Steve Jordan who uses somewhat heavy hardware? Does his music have any less vibe or breathing? Come on now.
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Old 02-15-2012, 05:01 AM
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

I use those DW cymbal and tom stands, they aren't that heavy and it's less things you have to carry stand wise!
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Old 02-15-2012, 07:01 AM
audiotech
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
Dennis, as much as I respect your stature as an audio engineer, that's got to be a bit of 'tweezing', don't you think? To me, it's all about the end result of the music being made by the musicians you're recording, and the vibe they're producing. You really think a difference in oscillations that are dependent on the type of stands being used is going to make that big of a noticeable difference?

If that were indeed the case, then by virtue of the times they were recorded in, the light stands would be the way to always go because they would've moved with the instruments and enabled them to breathe more. But then what do you say to someone like Steve Jordan who uses somewhat heavy hardware? Does his music have any less vibe or breathing? Come on now.
Your absolutely correct about it being the end result, but that end result constitutes everything from the beginning to the end of the production. Having the cleanest practical approach to the recording process, will exhibit the cleanest quality in the final product. There is no better way to achieve this than starting at the sound's source and this includes anything that can deter from the quality of the sound's source. Besides everything else that creates unwelcome noise from drum kits, heavier weight stands are a very easy way to minimize unwanted vibrations from cymbal hits. I want to hear the cymbal and not the oscillations or "longer" vibrations from the stands they are sitting on. If you have the ear, try using a sand bag on the legs of some of your cymbal stands just to add a bit of weight. It acts somewhat like a bias giving the cymbals themselves more definition and depth because the cymbals will find it less likely to resonant the heavier weight stands themselves. It's really like audio 101, why do recording engineers, or any other sound professional, use microphone shock mounts? To be able to isolate the microphone from their stands or surroundings that will directly influence the sound entering the microphone in a negative way.

We all like the good vibrations, no reference to the Beach Boys, it what's picked up by the microphones which then is translated into wave forms that we hear as audible sounds in our ears and adjacent bone structures around our ears. Most of the time, if they are not controlled, these same microphones will pick up vibrations, mostly within the human range of hearing, but not always, that will influence the recording process by ways of frequency harmonics causing uncontrollable subliminal oscillations within the mix.

If you've done any studio recording professionally or received any degree in your audio field, you should well know that it is always best to start with a clean signal, because garbage in is always EQ'd garbage out, no matter what famous drummer plays it. As it turns out, "that big of a noticeable difference" is not how I view things in life, but instead, how can I make it better. I'm kept very busy and make a very good living at what I do because I take the extra five or ten minutes to accomplish things without compromise.

Dennis
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Old 02-15-2012, 04:51 PM
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T.Underhill T.Underhill is offline
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Default Re: How heavy is your hardware? I've had enough!

My new Pearl Eliminator hi hat stand could be used to bludgeon an elephant to death. It's a little on the heavy side for gigging but it will probably never break.
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