Grip and Stroke (no pun intended)

[Benfordrum]

I know it is discussed very often on this forum. this is just a question though, havent seen it because its in regards to a specific drummer.

in this video, look at a few places, like 1:50-1:55, 8:03-8:07 11:00-11:05, 11:37-11:40.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NOTk54HA7c



My question is, it seems as if he grips the stick at the end of the stick, with the index finger pointing out. Yet he plays those quick notes on the ride, while maintaining a loose looking grip. where exactly is he gripping, is he using fingers or wrist?

could you guys explain this to me? hes not playing with rebound is he? what technique is that :O i know you guys will bash me for asking about technique.. but it seems so different

[Jon B]

he isnt "pointing" his index finger, he just isnt using it. i like to mess around like this every so often, to me it helps control volume. Hes puttin presure on the middle and ring fingers, and using arm, wrist, and most of all rebound to get the notes. Once you get the hang of it its really easy to bounce threes like that, which he does on the ride at 8:03.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiqV09ONExA
this is an example of kinda what hes doing. He is just really loose, riding the rebound, atleast as far as i can tell. Ive heard the "technique" called rebound or legato stroke for singles, the stuff he does on the ride he is just bouncing.

[Benfordrum]

That's exactly what I thought. But look at how low he grips the stick, it doesn't even point out of the back of his hand. You cant get rebound from that. Look at when he hits the hi hats, grips at the butt end. Same with when he's on the ride

[iontheable]

The 'not using' the pointer finger is apparent with Moeller technique quite often.

I love utilizing my hands this way.

[Benfordrum]

Makes sense, more room for the stick to move around when whipping and tapping.

I still don't get Andrew's (guy in the video) technique. Looks like no rebound whatsoever.

[Jon B]

it doesnt look like it but he is using rebound, try it for yourself. and i play with virtually no stick left, at the end like he does, the only time i dont is 2b and higher, and even those have to be at least 16 1/2 in long. its very possible to get rebound.

[Alex Luce]

Wow, thanks for sharing that video. This guy Andy Fisenden is a total monster. He is using a 2nd finger fulcrum, and that is why you see the index finger hanging down. When you use the 2nd finger to grip the stick, the index finger is mainly used to guide the stick and keep in under control.

Check out out the drum solo at the end. You will see him using fingers, wrists, arms. This guy has it all together, a great stroke and grip. He is like Vinnie Colaiuta back in the 80's, but somehow even more aggressive. I have been checking out a bunch of his stuff on youtube. If Andy ever moves to America it will be all over...he is going to kill the world!!

Thanks again!

[Benfordrum]

Originally Posted by Jon B

it doesnt look like it but he is using rebound, try it for yourself. and i play with virtually no stick left, at the end like he does, the only time i dont is 2b and higher, and even those have to be at least 16 1/2 in long. its very possible to get rebound.

So you're saying he's using a smaller shorter stick? Those things look like 2Bs to me hahaha. And Alex he's in Miami at the moment, might see him play tonight :D

[Jon B]

So you're saying he's using a smaller shorter stick? Those things look like 2Bs to me hahaha. And Alex he's in Miami at the moment, might see him play tonight :D

its a reasonable assumption because most drummers use sticks in the 5a range. He might be, he might not be, and just because my technique varies depending on the dimensions of the stick doesnt mean his technique varies the same way. He could be playing that way with marching sticks if its the way he plays, or it could be 7as

[larryace]

Originally Posted by Benfordrum

That's exactly what I thought. But look at how low he grips the stick, it doesn't even point out of the back of his hand. You cant get rebound from that.

He's a great drummer. The stick doesn't extend past the wrist. Maybe that's one of the reasons why?
And you most definitely can get rebound with that grip. He is total control of his stick, nothing is left to chance. If he is not getting rebound, it is because he is doing half strokes. Stopping the rebound on purpose. The stick will rebound if he allows it. I would go as far as to say that one of the hallmarks of great stick technique, is that the stick doesn't extend past the wrist. That's JMO.

[bigd]

Originally Posted by larryace

He's a great drummer. The stick doesn't extend past the wrist. Maybe that's one of the reasons why?
And you most definitely can get rebound with that grip. He is total control of his stick, nothing is left to chance. If he is not getting rebound, it is because he is doing half strokes. Stopping the rebound on purpose. The stick will rebound if he allows it. I would go as far as to say that one of the hallmarks of great stick technique, is that the stick doesn't extend past the wrist. That's JMO.

Sorry I'm having a difficult week and I don't mean to take it out here but WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!!!! I studied for the better part of 6 years with one of Henry Adler's most famous students who is a celebrated college professor. The stick does extend past the back of the wrist. I've also seen your attempts at some of the stroke exercises and I'm sorry but you are doing them incorrectly.

[larryace]

OK I won't recommend it anymore. But it works for me. And him apparently.

[Alex Luce]

Originally Posted by bigd

Sorry I'm having a difficult week and I don't mean to take it out here but WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!!!! I studied for the better part of 6 years with one of Henry Adler's most famous students who is a celebrated college professor. The stick does extend past the back of the wrist.

If you hold a stick at its balance point (the part of the stick where it will bounce the most on the drumhead) then you will achieve the maximum amount of rebound.

Steve Jordan holds his stick so far AHEAD of the balance point it is ridiculous. And now we have Andy who holds it behind the balance point. Both of them end up achieving the same end, which is incredible tone, technical ability and musicality on the drum set. So who is right? Does it matter?

Please post a video of this "Celebrated college professor" playing the drumset and we will check him out. Something tells me he is nowhere near as good as Steve Jordan or Andy Fisenden.

[Benfordrum]

Originally Posted by Alex Luce

If you hold a stick at its balance point (the part of the stick where it will bounce the most on the drumhead) then you will achieve the maximum amount of rebound.

Steve Jordan holds his stick so far AHEAD of the balance point it is ridiculous. And now we have Andy who holds it behind the balance point. Both of them end up achieving the same end, which is incredible tone, technical ability and musicality on the drum set. So who is right? Does it matter?

Please post a video of this "Celebrated college professor" playing the drumset and we will check him out. Something tells me he is nowhere near as good as Steve Jordan or Andy Fisenden.

I just feel as if everyone stresses these things about one set technique. I completely disagree, and agree with whatever works for the specified person. I just want to know how it works in Andys case :p

Im going to see him play tonight ill tell you guys what I observe, hell I'll even go up to him and ask him

[eddypierce]

Originally Posted by bigd

Sorry I'm having a difficult week and I don't mean to take it out here but WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!!!! I studied for the better part of 6 years with one of Henry Adler's most famous students who is a celebrated college professor. The stick does extend past the back of the wrist. I've also seen your attempts at some of the stroke exercises and I'm sorry but you are doing them incorrectly.

Was the "celebrated college professor" Al Lepak, perchance? I know that he studied with Adler.

Thanks,

Ed

[Doctor1and2]

The "anything goes" drum method is a very popular notion. Most young drummers subscribe to this idea when it comes to gripping and moving the drumstick... and probably any other aspect of playing the drums (or music in general). That there could actually be some value in a systematic or disciplined approach to drumming is often automatically rejected as old-school thinking or worse -- it could somehow cramp the uniqueness of the individual or their creative energies.

The results of the "if it feels good do it" method to grip and stroke is chronic tendonitis, carpal-tunnel syndrome, early osteoarthritis, and just poor drumming. Our arms, wrists and hands have limits to their range of motion. Some movements come quite easy and natural, other movements place great stress on our joints and connective tissues. Fundamentally, gripping and moving a drumstick is a matter of physics.

When we watch greats like Buddy Rich, Louis Bellson or a host of other masters, we see a conservation of movement. Their grips are open and their strokes are fluid. And if observed closely, the basic techniques of these great drummers are much more similar than they are different. Gee, maybe some methods really are better than others (but that's judgmental, dude!).

When it comes to understanding the basic body mechanics of grip and stroke, perhaps the two finest lessons I've found that seem to actually reach most young drummers are: (1) the DVD "Great Hands for a Lifetime" by Tommy Igoe, and (2) the DVD "Master Class Drums" by Danny Gottlieb (also available as sample tracks on youtube.com as #2 Holding the Sticks & #3 Full Stroke). The information offered in these two videos will definitely improve your playing. And if actually followed, these guidelines will preserve your hands for decades of enjoyable drumming.

[Alex Luce]

Originally Posted by Doctor1and2

And if observed closely, the basic techniques of these great drummers are much more similar than they are different.

I couldn't agree more with this statement. But how you grip a stick CAN be a matter of choice depending on personal preference and the musical situation. Jim Chapin said; “If anybody tells you that there's only one way to hold a drumstick, you have to look at them in disbelief. There is no more wandering thing than the fulcrum.”

Drummers can get hung up on how to hold the sticks. But the most important factor for successful playing is not how the sticks are held, but how the arms move when the drums are struck...in other words, "the stroke". The stroke, or the way the arm moves, is similar with all great drummers. But sometimes the sameness or similarity of their strokes are hard to quantify and observe, because of the way the grip AFFECTS their stroke. For example, if the stick is held with German grip, the stroke will look different then if it is held with French grip. With both grips however, a good stroke allows the arm to function as a powerful lever system. The greats use their arms as levers to harness almost unlimited energy and create pheonmenal technique.

The path to great technique cannot be different for drummers because we all share the same anatomy. But nature does allow certain variances to occur by the way the sticks are held. A drummer who has mastered the stroke will find it is relatively easy to change and adjust the grip at will, to achieve the musical effect desired.

Regards,

Alex

P.S. Ben, hope you had a chance to catch Andy Fisenden tonight. Would have loved to been there!

[Doctor1and2]

Originally Posted by Alex Luce

But the most important factor for successful playing is not how the sticks are held, but how the arms move when the drums are struck...

Hi Alex,

I understand your suggestion that each drummer must find the specific techniques of grip and stroke that work best for them and that the technique should create the exact sound they are trying to achieve. Traditional grip, matched grip, Moeller, Adler, or Elmer Fudd... ultimately, it matters not if the drummer is able to gracefully achieve the desired sonic results without damage to wrists and hands.

If you carefully read my comments on this subject, I did not suggest that one size fits all and that technique should never vary. Using effective technique should give us the sound we hope to create in a way that that is kind to our body. My point was a simple one -- some methods indeed are better than others in achieving these results.

However, I can say without reservation that if your stroke comes primarily from your arm movement rather than your wrist movement (or if you don't understand the difference), you need to seriously rethink your technique and you should probably seek some lessons from a true professional. The DVDs from the master drummers I mentioned are a good place to start. I hope you find these comments helpful.

[Alex Luce]

The wrist is a hinge, or the fulcrum of the hand. Where do you think the muscles are located that move the wrist?

[Doctor1and2]

Gosh Alex, thanks for letting me know that the wrist is a hinge. As an orthopedic surgeon, that's the best information I've received since medical school! It's unfortunate you find no value in my comments. Obviously, I can't tell you anything about drumming or physiology because you already know it all. Sadly, your argumentative and arrogant responses demonstrate that you're a legend in your own mind. Continue to play as you are and it's likely one of my colleagues will see you in surgery.

[Alex Luce]

It wasn't advice, it was a question. I guess you are unwilling to continue the discussion?

[Benfordrum]

well guys, i spend a large portion of my night with Andy, and let me tell you this guy is something else. The most humble modest musician that ive ever met! and his playing was just ridiculous, just insane. I also received his sticks that he used for the gig :D he changes where he grips, usually around the end of the stick. I practiced for 5 hours today trying that method and it works! you get substantial rebound with limited movement (its from the back of the stick, its as if im lifting more weight) and it actually increased my dynamic control. now to figure out his foot technique, the cleanest doubles that ive ever seen live with so much attack. just CRAZY

[larryace]

Ah, lucky you Ben, getting to meet Andy....I envy you.

Back OT, there are many paths to the waterfall.

I've seen Alex's technique in action. It's graceful, fluid and very effective. It looks beautiful too. My technique is basically polar opposite of Alex's and I have no injuries whatsoever either.

There are many paths to the waterfall.

[Benfordrum]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBV1nA75BJE

Heres the video i took of him the other night. Simply amazing.