What do dotted notes *sound* like?

[Liebe zeit]

I know what a dotted note is. I know what it'd sound like on an instrument that has meaningful sustain. But what do dotted notes sound like on drums? How do you play that note for the extra 50% on an instrument that only registers a split-second hit. Is it a roll or buzz?

Video examples would be a great help in explaining this if you have them.

[uniin]

its just to fill the sound out so that you don't have to write rests on paper, keeps everything looking neat.

[Too Many Songs]

Originally Posted by Liebe zeit

I know what a dotted note is. I know what it'd sound like on an instrument that has meaningful sustain. But what do dotted notes sound like on drums? How do you play that note for the extra 50% on an instrument that only registers a split-second hit. Is it a roll or buzz?

Video examples would be a great help in explaining this if you have them.

You might as well ask what is the difference between a 1/4 note and 1/8 note. A dotted note is just of a 'longer value' (half as much again as the note that is dotted). Because drums are a staccato instrument it doesn't usually matter very much whether your write it as a dotted note or a note and a rest. Arrangers write that way for neatness, out of habit, or most often because for the instruments with sustain it does matter and an arranger will write parts for all instruments using the same way of notating the rhythmic patterns he or she is trying to get across.

[Liebe zeit]

Originally Posted by Too Many Songs

You might as well ask what is the difference between a 1/4 note and 1/8 note. A dotted note is just of a 'longer value' (half as much again as the note that is dotted). Because drums are a staccato instrument it doesn't usually matter very much whether your write it as a dotted note or a note and a rest. Arrangers write that way for neatness, out of habit, or most often because for the instruments with sustain it does matter and an arranger will write parts for all instruments using the same way of notating the rhythmic patterns he or she is trying to get across.

Well, that's kinda what I thought. Until I read this post on the Clapton/Gadd mistake thread http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/s...37&postcount=9

And I wondered, how can you know they were dotted?

[Too Many Songs]

Originally Posted by Liebe zeit

Well, that's kinda what I thought. Until I read this post on the Clapton/Gadd mistake thread http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/s...37&postcount=9

And I wondered, how can you know they were dotted?

OK, some figures and patterns are so common that players with experience will refer to them by a particular name as a shorthand. On such is 'dotted 1/8 or 1/4 notes'. Patterns that involve these are really common because they give a polyrhythmic, and sometimes across the bar, feel which in turn is why it is rhythmically interesting. The pattern that Gadd played (wrongly at first) and then Clapton, Gadd and everyone else played is really, really common and it is typically notated at dotted 1/4 notes.

[MLdrum]

It is a difference in the world of classical percussion at least. I have played snare drum pieces that contained both
notes with staccato and tenuto (opposite of staccato) markings. At first it is more of a visual effect, but after some time
you can sort of feel and/or hear the difference. At least if you've been working on it, which I happen to have done.

(I'm talking about the difference between an 16th note + rests and a dotted 8th note,
or staccato vs tenuto on drums in case anyone missed it) =)

Although on a drum kit, the differences are sort of washed out because of the natural differences in different kind
of drums (snare, toms, bass drum). But if you have a bass drum with some tone and sustain, you could try to first hit it
with an "open" feel. And then hit it, while muffling it as heavily as you can (with i.e. your hand). Or if you hit it with
your foot with a pedal, first hit and bury the beater, then hit it and let the beater come off the head. You should be able
to hear a difference, unless your bass drum already is heavily muffled by several blankets/pillows/etc.

You could also try what I've been working on this last autumn: Playing the snare drum legato :D (y) Play medium
soft with big, round movements. Your movement should reflect the sound you're after. I.e.:
short staccato sound --> short, maybe a bit hard and staccato movements
long legato sound --> big, round and, yes, leeegaaatoooo mooovemeeents ;-)

[Too Many Songs]

Interesting examples MLDrum and serves to emphasise the degree of precision and control you guys in the classical world have.

On the drum kit, rather than the bass drum, the better examples I think relate to the length of cymbal sustain. So, to use your example, a 1/16th note could be played on the cymbal and almost immediately choked with the hand. A dotted 1/8th on the other hand could be let ring for 3/16ths duration.

I have to admit that I cannot recall a single chart I have played in decades of playing drum kit where that distinction mattered as such, though the musical context might well have demanded a shorter or longer cymbal sustain.

And as for the Gadd/Clapton piece. I bet that was notated as dotted 1/4 notes and SG felt it was thus appropriate to play on cymbals rather than drums to give some (albeit uncontrolled) sustain.

[MLdrum]

Thank you (on behalf of the classical percussionists of the world), but I think it is mostly because of a different focus
and also because our role is very different. I really like your example with the cymbals, it relates more to the drum kit
in a practical setting =)

[Too Many Songs]

Originally Posted by MLdrum

Thank you (on behalf of the classical percussionists of the world), but I think it is mostly because of a different focus
and also because our role is very different. I really like your example with the cymbals, it relates more to the drum kit
in a practical setting =)

I'm biased because for years I was in a jazz band with a brass player who also had a seat in a major philharmonic orchestra. It was always fun to compare notes about the two scenes.

And who can't dig Evelyn Glennie and James Blades?

[Boomka]

Originally Posted by MLdrum

It is a difference in the world of classical percussion at least. I have played snare drum pieces that contained both
notes with staccato and tenuto (opposite of staccato) markings. At first it is more of a visual effect, but after some time
you can sort of feel and/or hear the difference. At least if you've been working on it, which I happen to have done.

(I'm talking about the difference between an 16th note + rests and a dotted 8th note,
or staccato vs tenuto on drums in case anyone missed it) =)

Although on a drum kit, the differences are sort of washed out because of the natural differences in different kind
of drums (snare, toms, bass drum). But if you have a bass drum with some tone and sustain, you could try to first hit it
with an "open" feel. And then hit it, while muffling it as heavily as you can (with i.e. your hand). Or if you hit it with
your foot with a pedal, first hit and bury the beater, then hit it and let the beater come off the head. You should be able
to hear a difference, unless your bass drum already is heavily muffled by several blankets/pillows/etc.

You could also try what I've been working on this last autumn: Playing the snare drum legato :D (y) Play medium
soft with big, round movements. Your movement should reflect the sound you're after. I.e.:
short staccato sound --> short, maybe a bit hard and staccato movements
long legato sound --> big, round and, yes, leeegaaatoooo mooovemeeents ;-)

This is all great stuff. I've frequently brought this up in similar threads in the past. Some of it is mental, but some of it is physical, too. You can change the spread of a ride cymbal by adjusting tension at the fulcrum, for instance. I even go so far as to mute floor toms with my hands when I think a more staccato sound is in order.

[bermuda]

Originally Posted by Too Many Songs

Arrangers write that way for neatness, out of habit...

Correct, and therefore you can usually tell if a drummer or 'musician' wrote a drum part.

I try not to write my parts with dotted notes (or tied notes) because they don't possess much value for me and in some cases congest the notation and warrant more attention to the music than is necessary. But in some cases, the extra markings are easier to deal with than inserting extra rests. For example, a tied note over a bar line is a better indication of a 'push' than having a rest on the "1" of the next bar, however I don't like seeing tied notes within a bar.

Drummers with a melodic background undoubtedly have an easier time with full notation, but for me, it's all about keeping the notation clutter-free and easy to read. .

Bermuda

[wsabol]

Originally Posted by Liebe zeit

Well, that's kinda what I thought. Until I read this post on the Clapton/Gadd mistake thread http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/s...37&postcount=9

And I wondered, how can you know they were dotted?

This was my post so I'll explain too. You are listening for when the notes start. Clapton is playing that quarter note triplet bend thing. On top of that Gadd crashes on + e 3. The figure Gadd played can most easily be written as an 1/8 rest, two dotted 1/8 notes and a half note, hence, + e 3. I think that rhythmic dissonance--9 over 8--is really funky.

Drum notation is written partly for the notes being played, and partly as queues for the drummer. Snare drum hits have no length, so it doesn't matter if you write them as quarter notes or a 1/16 note and 15 1/16 rests. However, for a drummer playing in a band or in a session, it means a lot. It lets the drummer know if the rest of the band is playing long sustained quarters, or short staccato notes. The notation on the page dictates how the drummer plays all the instruments on his drum set.

[Liebe zeit]

Originally Posted by wsabol

This was my post so I'll explain too. You are listening for when the notes start. Clapton is playing that quarter note triplet bend thing. On top of that Gadd crashes on + e 3. The figure Gadd played can most easily be written as an 1/8 rest, two dotted 1/8 notes and a half note, hence, + e 3. I think that rhythmic dissonance--9 over 8--is really funky.

Drum notation is written partly for the notes being played, and partly as queues for the drummer. Snare drum hits have no length, so it doesn't matter if you write them as quarter notes or a 1/16 note and 15 1/16 rests. However, for a drummer playing in a band or in a session, it means a lot. It lets the drummer know if the rest of the band is playing long sustained quarters, or short staccato notes. The notation on the page dictates how the drummer plays all the instruments on his drum set.

Thanks for that. I'll have a good read and listen later on

[JohnW]

We use dot-cut rhythms all the time in Pipe Band drumming. And I don't believe there's a drum out there with a shorter decay than a Pipe Band snare. So here is a version of a massed band 4/4 beating that's used in parades and Highland games all over the World. James Laughlin, who used to be a member of the World Champion SFU Pipe Band plays the following on drum pad. Note that he does it fairly flat and expressionless, because it is kind of an entry point to this type of music. (Most of the high level competition stuff he plays is loaded with dynamics and expression):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD0wc-WHmow


There are some slight variations globally, but basically a pipe band drummer in Singapore could walk into Highland games in Colorado and fit right in.

Here's the score for the massed band 2/4 and 4/4 played above. Note that the 4/4 ending is shown at the bottom of the page:

http://www.euspba.org/resource/music...rums_24-44.pdf

And here's a massed band performance of Scotland the Brave. It's slightly muddled, but you can get an idea of the context:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hZUZCoMKxA

-John

[LukeSnyder]

Originally Posted by bermuda

Correct, and therefore you can usually tell if a drummer or 'musician' wrote a drum part.

I try not to write my parts with dotted notes (or tied notes) because they don't possess much value for me and in some cases congest the notation and warrant more attention to the music than is necessary. But in some cases, the extra markings are easier to deal with than inserting extra rests. For example, a tied note over a bar line is a better indication of a 'push' than having a rest on the "1" of the next bar, however I don't like seeing tied notes within a bar.

Drummers with a melodic background undoubtedly have an easier time with full notation, but for me, it's all about keeping the notation clutter-free and easy to read. .

Bermuda

Thats always been my goal as well. For me, the simpler and cleaner you can make the notation look, the better.

[Thud]

It's fairly simple really if you think of the blues rhythm. This is often written as dotted triplets. Because you "carry" the first note the second note is omitted and the third is closer to the following one. This gives the characteristic de-de, de-de, de-de, de-de of the blues.

[topgun2021]

You can make a drum resonate for very long periods of time and still be heard. So it is a relevant note is some percussion music.

[moontheloon]

a dotted quarter note sounds like ....play 1 with a rest on 2 then play the "and" of 2

a dotted 8th/16th note sounds like ...... playing the 1 and the A of a 16th note....1 e + A...the lowercase e and the + being rested

etc etc

the note plus half its value

since we dont hold notes very often the way harmonic instruments do....we rest unless the slashes are provided in which case we obviously roll the dotted notes value