DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > Drum Gear > Drums

Drums All about Drums and Drum Kits

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 01-03-2012, 11:39 PM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is offline
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 13,098
Default Free floating vs lugged drums

Andy Alert:

Initially, I thought a free floating, lugless, drum tensioning system, capable of independently tensioning both heads separately, with no drillings at all in the shell except for a vent, and suspension mounted, would be the purest drum tone.

Now I'm not so sure. Don't the lugs, by virtue of being under tension and somewhat connected to the head, transfer a lot of energy to the shell, which then excites the shell more and add more of it's flavor to the mix? Isn't that majorly desirable? Is it fair to say that a true free floating design has the least shell involvement? On paper, I would think that to be the case. For tone and character, the more shell involvement the better, right?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-04-2012, 12:42 AM
tard's Avatar
tard tard is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: springhill nova scotia canada
Posts: 1,327
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

I cant seem to find the article but if I do I will post it. It was related to the peavey radial bridge design vs conventional lugged drums and I remember some of the oscilloscope findings and that depending where the head was struck and the lugs that were the closest to that strike would cause the drum to resonate more or less depending on the differences between each of the lugs as well as the vibrations were distorted and uneven due to the inconsistenciess between each of the metal lugs which was also why the rate of the vibration and decay varied as well, where as the all wood non lugged shell had the same amount of resonance and decay each time no matter where it was struck and the vibrations were clean, even and undistorted due to the lack of metal lugs.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-04-2012, 01:32 AM
caddywumpus's Avatar
caddywumpus caddywumpus is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Portland, OR USA
Posts: 5,574
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

As I understand it, the argument FOR free-floating drums is that there's no hardware to muffle/inhibit the shell's natural resonance.

The head transfers its energy directly to the shell via the contact with the bearing edge. That's why you get more "shell" sound with a rounded edge (more contact) and more "head" sound with a sharper edge (finer point of contact). It's an interesting point you bring up, the energy transferring from the head --> hoop ---> tension rod --> lug --> lug casing --> lug casing screws --> lug casing screw washer --> shell. I'd imagine after so many levels of separation, the energy transferred would be absorbed little by little at each point of contact, and make little to no addition of resonance to the shell. Even if it did, the amount that the hardware muffles the shell would vastly overpower any resonance added...
__________________
Be vewwy quiet, I'm hunting Lawwy

My kit: http://drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44195
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-04-2012, 02:30 AM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is offline
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 13,098
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

Quote:
Originally Posted by caddywumpus View Post
As I understand it, the argument FOR free-floating drums is that there's no hardware to muffle/inhibit the shell's natural resonance.

The head transfers its energy directly to the shell via the contact with the bearing edge. That's why you get more "shell" sound with a rounded edge (more contact) and more "head" sound with a sharper edge (finer point of contact). It's an interesting point you bring up, the energy transferring from the head --> hoop ---> tension rod --> lug --> lug casing --> lug casing screws --> lug casing screw washer --> shell. I'd imagine after so many levels of separation, the energy transferred would be absorbed little by little at each point of contact, and make little to no addition of resonance to the shell. Even if it did, the amount that the hardware muffles the shell would vastly overpower any resonance added...
I'm not so sure that much energy is lost in the transfer, Everything is under tension so it all acts as one, more or less...
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-04-2012, 02:43 AM
Pocket-full-of-gold's Avatar
Pocket-full-of-gold Pocket-full-of-gold is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia.
Posts: 9,869
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Andy Alert:
You called it.

I'm not even gonna take a stab at this mate. I'm waiting for someone with far more of a clue than I.

Over to you Andy.........
__________________
What's the best cape for running away from a gig?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-04-2012, 02:45 AM
caddywumpus's Avatar
caddywumpus caddywumpus is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Portland, OR USA
Posts: 5,574
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
I'm not so sure that much energy is lost in the transfer, Everything is under tension so it all acts as one, more or less...
That's a logical thought. I don't know if it works out, though, especially since there are so many contact points. You could take the same train of thought and say that the glue that holds the plies of a shell together is under pressure/tension, so it shouldn't inhibit resonance at all, either. I'm still under the impression that any small amount of vibration given back to the shell through the hardware is more than counteracted by how much the shell's natural resonance is inhibited by the same hardware. It makes me think of people who use drums with suspension mounts, but then slap Moongel and Zero-Rings on their drums.

I dunno, I'm waiting for Andy to chime in as well...
__________________
Be vewwy quiet, I'm hunting Lawwy

My kit: http://drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44195
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-04-2012, 03:05 AM
tard's Avatar
tard tard is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: springhill nova scotia canada
Posts: 1,327
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

I think the actual problem is that no 2 lugs are exactly the same and each one changes the rate and intensity of the vibrations just a bit resulting in some unwanted overtones and some canceling each other out changing the tone and reducing resonance. Similar to sending a powered music signal through different length and different gauge speaker wires over a long distance resulting in the signal reaching the speakers at slightly different times and volume.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-04-2012, 04:47 AM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is offline
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 13,098
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

I know Andy will say that everything vibrates as a whole, the wood, the glue, lugs, heads etc. etc., so with a free floater, I think we can all agree that there is less mass on the shell, and I think we can all agree that more mass vibrates longer than less mass...so the benefits gained from free floating are negated by loss of mass? Hmmmm. I am just not sure. With a free floater, any energy imposed on the tensioning system is lost...siphoned off because the tensioning system is separate from the shell and heads and really shouldn't contribute hardly at all to the net tone....where with a lugged drum....all the energy imparted to the drum goes to making tone because the tensioning system is not separate from the shell. Am I making a good argument for lugged drums? I didn't plan on thinking like this, but the logic is worth exploring.

ANDY!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-04-2012, 05:32 AM
Dre25's Avatar
Dre25 Dre25 is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Sydney
Posts: 3,112
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

No idea but if lugs and hardware 'help' play such a big role in resonance you might think you would get more of a note from a drum when you play on the rims.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoIsTony? View Post
please do not take this advice for it is among the worst given
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-04-2012, 06:44 AM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is offline
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 13,098
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dre25 View Post
No idea but if lugs and hardware 'help' play such a big role in resonance you might think you would get more of a note from a drum when you play on the rims.
Wow great idea. Play on the rim of a free floater and play on the rims of a lugged drum. Any loss of shell tone should show up there, right? But then again the head is not directly involved. I'd say that toms do not get rim shots the majority of the time, the head is the first thing vibrating in the chain, so for apples to apples, you'd have to measure vibrations from the head being lost to the framework on a free floater. How you do that is beyond me.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-04-2012, 07:06 AM
Bo Eder's Avatar
Bo Eder Bo Eder is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 11,057
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

Come on Larry, who's gonna notice any of that when you're breaking 250 bpm on the double bass drums? It's all about the sleight-of-hand. Throw in some flurries and nobody will notice your snare not ringing as long as it should ;)

Andy?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-04-2012, 12:15 PM
keep it simple's Avatar
keep it simple keep it simple is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 16,131
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

Well, that's an interesting read to date. Some well thought out points & counterpoints. So here's my take based on a lot of A - B testing & experimentation, but, of course, it's not straight forward, & there's numerous caveats, so belt up for the ride :)

Background stuff

Head resonance is distinct & separate to shell resonance, although their functions are always linked together. The heads produce almost all of the drum's sound, but the shell shapes that sound. Think of a drum as a speaker cabinet: the heads are the speaker cone, & the shell is the cabinet material, dimensions, design (baffles, etc).

Ok, that's the concept layout, let's look at functions. The shell shapes sound via two mechanisms. 1/via sympathetic resonance (the same way your ear works), and 2/via acting as a conduit for vibrations through direct contact (think of a violin bridge). Both mechanisms contribute to the resultant sound, & transmit their sound augmentation through the heads (our speaker cones). Once you understand this, it's pretty easy to work out what constructional changes will do to the sound.

I was going to cut to the chase here, but I think it would be useful if I sight 2 extremes of construction to highlight the above;

1/ Ford drums produce a very thick shell ply drum series and coat those shells in a hard rubber based finish. They claim that the shell makes no contribution to the sound, & that their thick shell increases tuning range & produces a focussed tone. Applied to this specific construction, they're correct, but why? a/ the heavy ply construction is a poor conduit of vibrations from the batter bearing edge to the reso bearing edge. b/ the heavy shell isn't excited sympathetically by the sound pressure waves within the shell. c/ the coating adds further mass & introduces an element that resonates very little, & at a different frequency to the shell body. Why they then fit suspension mounts is beyond me, but hey? A benign shell offers no significant tone shaping, therefore the sound is almost exclusively generated by the heads. The sound profile of the heads is therefore only shaped by interaction with the bearing edge, head selection, tuning, drum diameter, depth, & hoop mass choice. in other words, there is no sweet spot, so the drum performs in a uniform manner across the tuning range, & is limited only by the vibration/tension characteristics of the head material. This is a very valid all purpose gigging construction, and produces a generic drum tone.

2/ My prototype kit. Very thin stave shells. This is the polar opposite of the Ford design. The unmolested vertical grain structure of the shell efficiently transfers vibrations from the batter bearing edge to the reso head. The thin shell is easily excited sympathetically via the sound pressure waves in the drum. Every substantial resonating part of the construction is made from the same material. The shell is able to vibrate freely because there's nothing acting as a resonance sink by way of solid contact or differential mass. The result is a drum that opens up with the smallest input, & who's resultant tone is massively shaped by the timber species. This produces a very pure representation of the timber's tone. Such a construction is far less flexible than the Ford construction. It has a very defined sweet spot. It's peerless at doing what it does, but it's a specialist instrument.

Detail stuff;

Ok, background out of the way, Larry's first question related to purity of tone. With reference to the above examples, both produce a pure tone. The Ford produces a pure benign tone, & the Guru produces a pure timber species tone. You take your choice, both are valid approaches. In terms of the affect of lugs, & again, with reference to the first section of this post, their contribution is pretty much their mass, & the introduction of materials that resonate at a different frequency to the shell. In the Ford drums example, it really doesn't matter what lugs you bolt to the shell, in the Guru example, it's critical to the concept & outcome. Where I'm coming to here, is that the benefits of free floating constructions relate very much to the shell construction.

As Larry pointed out, all contact elements of a drum's construction vibrate, & therefore contribute to the sound. This also includes free floating mechanisms, but there's a caveat here. The contribution of the component to the resultant sound depends on how isolated it is from the primary resonating element. For example, the hoop is directly connected to the drum head, therefore it's influence on the vibration behaviour of the drum head is significant, but it's influence on the resonant behaviour of the shell is minimal. Lugs are directly connected to the shell, therefore their affect on the shell resonant behaviour is significant, but their affect on the vibration behaviour of the head is minimal. There's an umbrella element to this too, no matter how remote from source, the total mass of the drum construction will affect the overall character proportionally to it's size, so this is a complicated compound net affect.

Specific questions;

Don't the lugs, by virtue of being under tension and somewhat connected to the head, transfer a lot of energy to the shell, which then excites the shell more and add more of it's flavor to the mix?
Not really, the contribution is minimal, & also, undesirable, as any resonance has been coloured by the metal structures = additional overtones, usually high ones. The mass of the lugs detracts greatly from the shell's ability to resonate. On a thick & heavy shell, it's not an issue, but on a thinner shell that's advertised as being resonant, to add huge lug mass is just counter productive, unless you want a thumpy focussed sound.

Is it fair to say that a true free floating design has the least shell involvement?
Quite the reverse. If the free floating design is well isolated & of comparatively low overall mass, it delivers the most shell involvement, as the primary shell excitement mechanism is via direct contact through the bearing edges. Of course, the whole idea becomes pointless if the shell doesn't resonate freely. i.e. the more resonant the shell, the bigger the benefit, that's why free floating systems work best on thin solid shells, & especially steam bent, where some of the transfer is presented radially due to grain orientation.

For tone and character, the more shell involvement the better, right?
Absolutely, if that's what you're after.

Phew, that was a post marathon! Hope it actually gets read after taking forever to compose/type it.
__________________
This message is brought to you courtesy of Thinly Veiled Productions inc.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-04-2012, 04:20 PM
tard's Avatar
tard tard is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: springhill nova scotia canada
Posts: 1,327
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

Holy, marathon I guess, hows your fingers...lol, All I know is the warm tone and clean resonance I get from my lug free thin shelled radials is incredible and are so easy to tune with no unwanted odd harmonic overtones to deal with. If I bought a new acoustic kit tomorrow it would either be another set of radials or the new prototype Gurus. Eventually I believe you will see more companies adding a lug free line to their production.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-04-2012, 04:47 PM
Boom's Avatar
Boom Boom is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 505
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

I read it all Andy! Very informative post. Thanks OP for starting this. Drums aren't just fun to play, they are awesome to learn about :)
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-04-2012, 05:46 PM
Mad About Drums's Avatar
Mad About Drums Mad About Drums is offline
Pollyanna's Agent
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Shropshire, UK
Posts: 5,502
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

Yes Andy, that is a great lesson, so well explained too, I'm always impressed with that knowledge of yours in drums design, manufacturing and the "how it works" explanation, so thanks for the enlightenment on this thread and thanks to you Larry for bringing this up, that's indeed one the reason why I like this forum so much, you learn something everyday, big or small, but it's there. ;-))
__________________
Keep On Drumming
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-04-2012, 06:53 PM
mediocrefunkybeat
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

Ford's insistence on isolation mounts really is an exercise in hilarity, it's true.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-04-2012, 07:50 PM
Unix's Avatar
Unix Unix is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Terrebonne (Quebec)
Posts: 501
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

Dear Andy,

That has been very informative. Please allow me to add some builder non scientific infos to that.

I've tried very thin shell, and this is what I discover. With very thin shell, what I was hearing was not tonal wood sound more than a fragile structure ready to vibrate to anything that hit it. What also happen is that when hitting the snare hard, I was hearing the tom and bass drum humming. To my interpretation, it was a lack of isolation structure between the shells due to their soft resistence to vibration. Also, when the shell were lathed very thin (3/16" and under) when hitting the bare shell, no tone was produce, just an uneven vibration flow, tone is very important to sound and just for fun I've comparde 2 shells 12" x 8", one was 3/8" and the other 1/8" thick , I found that the 3/8" was far more nervous than the 1/8". If you take a violon, or an acoustic guitar, no matter how thin it is, it has a tone and a safe structure. That should also be applied to drum to what I understand now.

Ford drum using isolation mount has lot of sense and is not related totally to shell tickness.The most important would be to avoid the cymbal stand to vibrate with the tom installed on them and make everything vibrate togheter.

Now to the reel question: free floating vs lugged drums. There's a difference for sure, but even with free floating all the metal will vibrate in par with the shell and heads because all these parts are linked and connected togheter somehow, thinner the shell is, stronger the vibration will be.

I may be wrong here as I mention, it's no scientific fact just observation made by a passion builder. so much factors can be importants, heads, drums stick, room, music type, the player...

Last edited by Unix; 01-04-2012 at 08:01 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-04-2012, 07:58 PM
sticks4drums
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

I could be wrong but I think the biggest reason a floating shell has not taken off yet is because it does not look like the drums we know. It is like a suit without buttons on it. I like the look of a drum with lugs, and especially when contrast is involved. The lugs play a huge part for me in how a drum is supposed to look. When KIS had pics of his kit up for the first time, I had trouble coming up with positive things to say about it. It did not look like the way I thought a drum should look. I would buy a Guru with lugs before I would buy a free floating one.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-04-2012, 08:03 PM
mediocrefunkybeat
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

Quote:
Originally Posted by sticks4drums View Post
I could be wrong but I think the biggest reason a floating shell has not taken off yet is because it does not look like the drums we know. It is like a suit without buttons on it. I like the look of a drum with lugs, and especially when contrast is involved. The lugs play a huge part for me in how a drum is supposed to look. When KIS had pics of his kit up for the first time, I had trouble coming up with positive things to say about it. It did not look like the way I thought a drum should look. I would buy a Guru with lugs before I would buy a free floating one.
The fundamental difference here is that you haven't played it. I'm glad to say I have!
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-04-2012, 08:29 PM
sticks4drums
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

Quote:
Originally Posted by mediocrefunkybeat View Post
The fundamental difference here is that you haven't played it. I'm glad to say I have!
Well quit talking about them and buy one. :)
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 01-04-2012, 08:31 PM
keep it simple's Avatar
keep it simple keep it simple is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 16,131
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unix View Post
Dear Andy,

That has been very informative. Please allow me to add some builder non scientific infos to that.

I've tried very thin shell, and this is what I discover. With very thin shell, what I was hearing was not tonal wood sound more than a fragile structure ready to vibrate to anything that hit it. What also happen is that when hitting the snare hard, I was hearing the tom and bass drum humming. To my interpretation, it was a lack of isolation structure between the shells due to their soft resistence to vibration. Also, when the shell were lathed very thin (3/16" and under) when hitting the bare shell, no tone was produce, just an uneven vibration flow, tone is very important to sound and just for fun I've comparde 2 shells 12" x 8", one was 3/8" and the other 1/8" thick , I found that the 3/8" was far more nervous than the 1/8". If you take a violon, or an acoustic guitar, no matter how thin it is, it has a tone and a safe structure. That should also be applied to drum to what I understand now.

Ford drum using isolation mount has lot of sense and is not related totally to shell tickness.The most important would be to avoid the cymbal stand to vibrate with the tom installed on them and make everything vibrate togheter.

Now to the reel question: free floating vs lugged drums. There's a difference for sure, but even with free floating all the metal will vibrate in par with the shell and heads because all these parts are linked and connected togheter somehow, thinner the shell is, stronger the vibration will be.

I may be wrong here as I mention, it's no scientific fact just observation made by a passion builder. so much factors can be importants, heads, drums stick, room, music type, the player...
All very good & valid points gained from years of building superb quality drums. I love your drums, & I know Dean thinks very highly of you. My post was in reply to Larry's specific question, & I'm referring more to toms than snare drums. I notice the biggest difference on toms.

On the subject of very thin shells, yes, I agree, on their own, they have little tone to them when struck. However, when mounted into a more substantial bearing edge structure, they add a great deal to the tone. I can't explain why, but they do. In general however, I do agree that an ultra thin shell is very restricting in terms of delivering a wide tuning range & projection, that's why the new project I'm currently working on with Dean, uses both steam bent & stave shells around 6mm (1/4" thick) for toms, & around 9mm (3/8" thick) for floor toms 16" and bigger + bass drums.
__________________
This message is brought to you courtesy of Thinly Veiled Productions inc.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 01-04-2012, 08:34 PM
motleyh's Avatar
motleyh motleyh is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 310
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

It's so nice to have Andy around here to do the heavy lifting on these questions. :) So I can just add a couple of thoughts.

Free floating systems are not all alike, and the resonance to be gained/lost/sustained depends on construction. For example, I keep a Pearl Free Floater around because it's fun to play with different shells, and I change the depth by using different tension rods with it. But a lot of people describe the character of that drum as "boxy," and the reason they say that is that the system is built around an aluminum chassis. Now, if you're you're using the drum at a 3.5" depth, the reality is that about 40% of the total "shell" is made of aluminum (the frame being about 1.5" high). So what you've got is a hybrid shell, and aluminum can dry out just about anything, soundwise. That's why the wood selection for a shallow Pearl (or Gretsch) free floater almost doesn't make much difference, because there's not much resonance in the first place. Most often, I keep a brass shell in mine in a 5.5" depth configuration, and the aluminum dries out the ring of the brass a good bit. Drummers who like this drum usually are those who want to minimize ring in their snares -- not a practice I recommend, because it sounds pretty good from where the drummer sits but fairly horrible ten feet away.

And, as Andy has pointed out, a lot depends on the nature of the shell. I've seen people put 1" thick shells into Pearl FF frames, which is pretty much a guarantee of a dead-sounding snare.

Remember that the vibration of the head as it's being struck is transmitted to the shell through the bearing edges (not the lugs) -- and then realize that on several free floater designs, there is a frame that sits in contact with one or more bearing edges. So that frame has a lot to do in determining whether the sound of the shell is a greater or smaller factor in the overall sound of the drum. Pearl's design has a heavy aluminum ledge pressed tight in full contact with the bottom edge of the insert shell. Not a particularly resonant arrangement.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-04-2012, 08:34 PM
keep it simple's Avatar
keep it simple keep it simple is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 16,131
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

Quote:
Originally Posted by sticks4drums View Post
I could be wrong but I think the biggest reason a floating shell has not taken off yet is because it does not look like the drums we know.
I completely agree with this. We drummers have an inbuilt vision of beauty that's as ingrained as our interpretation of beauty in the opposite sex. Certain features are expected, & only slight variations on the theme are acceptable.

That said, my reply was towards Larry's very specific questions, hence my very specific answer.
__________________
This message is brought to you courtesy of Thinly Veiled Productions inc.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-04-2012, 08:48 PM
keep it simple's Avatar
keep it simple keep it simple is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 16,131
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

Quote:
Originally Posted by motleyh View Post
It's so nice to have Andy around here to do the heavy lifting on these questions. :) So I can just add a couple of thoughts.

Free floating systems are not all alike, and the resonance to be gained/lost/sustained depends on construction. For example, I keep a Pearl Free Floater around because it's fun to play with different shells, and I change the depth by using different tension rods with it. But a lot of people describe the character of that drum as "boxy," and the reason they say that is that the system is built around an aluminum chassis. Now, if you're you're using the drum at a 3.5" depth, the reality is that about 40% of the total "shell" is made of aluminum (the frame being about 1.5" high). So what you've got is a hybrid shell, and aluminum can dry out just about anything, soundwise. That's why the wood selection for a shallow Pearl (or Gretsch) free floater almost doesn't make much difference, because there's not much resonance in the first place. Most often, I keep a brass shell in mine in a 5.5" depth configuration, and the aluminum dries out the ring of the brass a good bit. Drummers who like this drum usually are those who want to minimize ring in their snares -- not a practice I recommend, because it sounds pretty good from where the drummer sits but fairly horrible ten feet away.

And, as Andy has pointed out, a lot depends on the nature of the shell. I've seen people put 1" thick shells into Pearl FF frames, which is pretty much a guarantee of a dead-sounding snare.

Remember that the vibration of the head as it's being struck is transmitted to the shell through the bearing edges (not the lugs) -- and then realize that on several free floater designs, there is a frame that sits in contact with one or more bearing edges. So that frame has a lot to do in determining whether the sound of the shell is a greater or smaller factor in the overall sound of the drum. Pearl's design has a heavy aluminum ledge pressed tight in full contact with the bottom edge of the insert shell. Not a particularly resonant arrangement.
Haha, we posted at the same time. Yes, totally agree. I do believe that the benefits of a free floating design are best realised on toms. Frankly, I've never really recognised much difference with snare drums. There is a difference, but it's minute in the big scheme of things. Toms are a different matter, especially for those who want long sustain & maximum shell tone.

I'll let you into a little secret :) I'm travelling to spend a couple of days with Dean, hopefully next week. We're testing two identical 12" walnut stave shells side by side. One is a standard lugged Guru Drumworks construction, the other is the prototype for our new production series drums. This test will prove or dispel many theories. I can't let you guys in on the design yet, as it still may be the subject of a patent, but it's pretty radical, yet unbelievably simple. It combines the advantages of free floating systems, yet it uses (very special) lugs & looks pretty much like a standard drum. It's also very light weight. Initial results are promising, & much has been taken from the lessons learn't on the prototype kit, but next week will be crunch time. I'm crossing my fingers :) :) :)
__________________
This message is brought to you courtesy of Thinly Veiled Productions inc.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-04-2012, 09:03 PM
sticks4drums
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Haha, we posted at the same time. Yes, totally agree. I do believe that the benefits of a free floating design are best realised on toms. Frankly, I've never really recognised much difference with snare drums. There is a difference, but it's minute in the big scheme of things. Toms are a different matter, especially for those who want long sustain & maximum shell tone.

I'll let you into a little secret :) I'm travelling to spend a couple of days with Dean, hopefully next week. We're testing two identical 12" walnut stave shells side by side. One is a standard lugged Guru Drumworks construction, the other is the prototype for our new production series drums. This test will prove or dispel many theories. I can't let you guys in on the design yet, as it still may be the subject of a patent, but it's pretty radical, yet unbelievably simple. It combines the advantages of free floating systems, yet it uses (very special) lugs & looks pretty much like a standard drum. It's also very light weight. Initial results are promising, & much has been taken from the lessons learn't on the prototype kit, but next week will be crunch time. I'm crossing my fingers :) :) :)
Please tell me you lost the bird cage. :) I might want to buy one of these kits in the near future, not just talk about them like some guys on here. MFB. :P
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 01-04-2012, 09:05 PM
mediocrefunkybeat
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

Some of us don't have wealthy wives.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 01-04-2012, 09:07 PM
sticks4drums
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

Quote:
Originally Posted by mediocrefunkybeat View Post
Some of us don't have wealthy wives.
You can fix that fast enough. :)
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 01-04-2012, 09:11 PM
mediocrefunkybeat
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

Quote:
Originally Posted by sticks4drums View Post
You can fix that fast enough. :)
Not with my other's job. Or mine when I finish qualifying AND there would be wedding costs.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 01-04-2012, 09:24 PM
sticks4drums
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

Quote:
Originally Posted by mediocrefunkybeat View Post
Not with my other's job. Or mine when I finish qualifying AND there would be wedding costs.
I am just messing with you. You are much younger than me. You have lots of time. Don't be like me and piss all your money away on stuff. All in good time. .
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 01-04-2012, 09:31 PM
mediocrefunkybeat
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

Quote:
Originally Posted by sticks4drums View Post
I am just messing with you. You are much younger than me. You have lots of time. Don't be like me and piss all your money away on stuff. All in good time. .
I have time but I piss it away watching cricket. Jacques Kallis has been fantastic today and I'm not even South African.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 01-05-2012, 01:53 AM
caddywumpus's Avatar
caddywumpus caddywumpus is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Portland, OR USA
Posts: 5,574
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

Quote:
Originally Posted by mediocrefunkybeat View Post
I'm not even South African.
You learn something new every day...
__________________
Be vewwy quiet, I'm hunting Lawwy

My kit: http://drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44195
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 01-05-2012, 08:59 AM
mediocrefunkybeat
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

Quote:
Originally Posted by caddywumpus View Post
You learn something new every day...
Ah, the snobbery gave it away?

In other news, AB DeVilliers was fantastic. His acceleration after his century was terrifying! Shame smith called them in, really...
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 01-05-2012, 10:57 AM
mandrew mandrew is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 669
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

Maybe we need to reconsider the original lugless drums . . . rope drums! Great sound and resonance, and no lugs, just a suspended tensioning system not resting on the shell. . . Hmmmmm. . .
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 01-05-2012, 06:45 PM
keep it simple's Avatar
keep it simple keep it simple is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 16,131
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

Quote:
Originally Posted by mandrew View Post
Maybe we need to reconsider the original lugless drums . . . rope drums! Great sound and resonance, and no lugs, just a suspended tensioning system not resting on the shell. . . Hmmmmm. . .
Indeed, my inspiration for the prototype kit (just don't tell Sticks I posted these, they'll spoil his dinner). ;0
Attached Images
  
__________________
This message is brought to you courtesy of Thinly Veiled Productions inc.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 01-05-2012, 06:54 PM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is offline
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 13,098
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

Those drums continue to be the baddest set of drums within our solar system. Someday Andy I will see them. I really want to take a head off and see what's under the hood. I still don't understand what you did with them.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 01-05-2012, 06:55 PM
keep it simple's Avatar
keep it simple keep it simple is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 16,131
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Those drums continue to be the baddest set of drums within our solar system. Someday Andy I will see them. I really want to take a head off and see what's under the hood. I still don't understand what you did with them.
Nor do I ;)


P,S. did you get the main points of my explanation post?
__________________
This message is brought to you courtesy of Thinly Veiled Productions inc.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 01-05-2012, 07:03 PM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is offline
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 13,098
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

Oh yes Andy, most definitely. I'm still processing the info. You really are an expert with this stuff. Free floaters are best with thin shells, assuming a lot of stuff. My ideas about the lugs and the free floaters were backwards it seems. Very interesting stuff. Thank you for that 2 hour post. Your work has gone a long way to furthering knowledge of drum building. I don't know of anyone whose ideas are more cutting edge than yours and Deans. I am champing at the bit in anticipation of your next round of experiments. I so want to see something with this new concept on the market so I can buy it.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 01-05-2012, 07:14 PM
sticks4drums
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

What kind of birds do you breed in those KIS. :)
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 01-05-2012, 07:22 PM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is offline
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 13,098
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

Let me take this.

They are Canadian buttstrap killers. He trains them to zero in on Canadian buttstraps and poop on their heads. If one of these buttstraps has Mapexes, the birds are trained to peck holes in them for XLR jacks. He feeds them shredded up Saturn drums. Arctic White ones are their FAVORITE flavor.

:)
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 01-05-2012, 07:24 PM
keep it simple's Avatar
keep it simple keep it simple is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 16,131
Default Re: Free floating vs lugged drums

Quote:
Originally Posted by sticks4drums View Post
What kind of birds do you breed in those KIS. :)
Mocking birds!


-----------------------
__________________
This message is brought to you courtesy of Thinly Veiled Productions inc.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com