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  #1  
Old 12-19-2011, 03:27 AM
pxavier pxavier is offline
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Default Which is more important

Drums mic’s for recording (Shure 6-pack drum mic's)
-OR-
New “Pork Pie” vented snare drum?

As of right now I have my stock snare drum that came with my Gretsch Nighthawk. It sounds great, but I fell in love with the 7x13 Little Squealer when I heard it. I'm looking for a snare drum that is dry and can cut through distortion from stringed instruments, but is lacking much overtone- similar to the snare drum used in Tangerine (Led Zeppelin) or in Stairway to Heaven (you all know that one). I know there are effects on the drums in Stairway, but there are definitely more Led Zeppelin songs featuring that tuning and snare drum, I just can't think of any at the moment. I'll post more examples if I do.

Also I need drum mic's for recording, if we don't use a studio. But the band and I figured it would be cheaper to have our own set of mic's? Hey, I'm just a found musician looking for some sound advice from the experienced... (Pun intended)
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:29 AM
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Default Re: Which is more important

Put an Evans Genera HD Dry head on that snare and it will be dry. Then you can buy your mics.
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:32 AM
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Default Re: Which is more important

All Led Zepp's material was recorded used a Ludwig Supraphonic LM402. 14 x6.5....not 13x7. Bonzo (by way of tuning and touch) and Page (by way of mic placement and other studio/recording knowledge) always did a pretty good job of accurately capturing that drum's tonal qualities. If you want that sound, you're gonna get a hell of a lot closer with a 402 than you will with a 13x7 Pork Pie.

As for which is more imprtant? That's easy......the one you'll get most use out of. If it were me, I'd be leaning in favour of a quality snare drum first.

Last edited by Pocket-full-of-gold; 12-19-2011 at 06:58 AM.
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:33 AM
pxavier pxavier is offline
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Default Re: Which is more important

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
Put an Evans Genera HD Dry head on that snare and it will be dry. Then you can buy your mics.
Oh yeah, also I forgot to mention that I have an Remo Emperor Weatherking on my snare batter head too.... Pain in the ass to tune.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocket-full-of-gold View Post
All Led Zepp's material was recorded used a Ludwig Spraphonic LM402. 14 x6.5....not 13x7. Bonzo (by way of tuning) and Page (by way of mic placement and other studio/recording knowledge) always did a pretty good job of accurately capturing that drum's tonal qualities. If you want that sound, you're gonna get a hell of a lot closer with a 402 than you will with a 13x7 Pork Pie.

As for which is more imprtant? That's easy......the one you'll get most use out of. If it were me, I'd be leaning in favour of a quality snare drum first.
Damn, is there nothing cheaper?... Now that Bonham's used it all over they cost a fortune.

Last edited by pxavier; 12-19-2011 at 03:35 AM. Reason: saving space
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:35 AM
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Default Re: Which is more important

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocket-full-of-gold View Post
All Led Zepp's material was recorded used a Ludwig Spraphonic LM402. 14 x6.5....not 13x7. Bonzo (by way of tuning) and Page (by way of mic placement and other studio/recording knowledge) always did a pretty good job of accurately capturing that drum's tonal qualities. If you want that sound, you're gonna get a hell of a lot closer with a 402 than you will with a 13x7 Pork Pie.

As for which is more imprtant? That's easy......the one you'll get most use out of. If it were me, I'd be leaning in favour of a quality snare drum first.
Well I'm not sure about the Spraphonic, whoever makes that thing, but if you want a great sounding snare, buy the LUDWIG 14 X 6.5 BLACK BEAUTY HAND HAMMERED SNARE.
It is my new favourite. I used it for about 3 hours today, and I really like it. Dammit :(
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:38 AM
pxavier pxavier is offline
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Default Re: Which is more important

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Originally Posted by sticks4drums View Post
Well I'm not sure about the Spraphonic, whoever makes that thing, but if you want a great sounding snare, buy the LUDWIG 14 X 6.5 BLACK BEAUTY HAND HAMMERED SNARE.
It is my new favourite. I used it for about 3 hours today, and I really like it. Dammit :(
Yeah, it's on "sale" at my music store for $565... Also, it's still a little too ring for me. I'm leaning more towards wood, and the vented Little Squealer seems to fit what I want.
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:40 AM
sticks4drums
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Default Re: Which is more important

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Originally Posted by pxavier View Post
Yeah, it's on "sale" at my music store for $565...
Well then buy it because that is what I got mine for and it is a great deal. You will be very happy. Right out of the box it sounds amazing. Of course If I said that about a Mapex snare I would be strung up by my toes or something. :)
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  #8  
Old 12-19-2011, 03:42 AM
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Default Re: Which is more important

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Originally Posted by pxavier View Post
Damn, is there nothing cheaper?... Now that Bonham's used it all over they cost a fortune.
I'm sure there's plenty of cheaper aluminium shell drums around. Pearl Sensitone and the like can be found for reasonable prices. If you really like the Pork Pie, there's no reason not to get that either. I was just stating that as you seem to love the Zepp snare sound so much, you'll have a better chance of recreating it by using the same drum. If you can't afford it, then have at whatever sits within your budget,

Quote:
Originally Posted by sticks4drums View Post
Well I'm not sure about the Spraphonic, whoever makes that thing,
Just noticed this......wow, you got me on a typo.....clever boy!! Anytime you want a battle of wits Sticks, PM me. I'm game.

Last edited by Pocket-full-of-gold; 12-19-2011 at 07:01 AM.
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  #9  
Old 12-19-2011, 03:43 AM
pxavier pxavier is offline
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Default Re: Which is more important

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/drums...e-drum--13-x-7

There's a link to the snare drum I wanted in case anyone wanted a reference.
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  #10  
Old 12-19-2011, 03:43 AM
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Default Re: Which is more important

power stroke 3 is super dry also see youtube video --drum head shoot out. yeh those 13 x 7 PP's are really nice, I was very close to buying one, then found my 13 x 7 Mapex premium black panther, which is a similar sound to the PP, but more lush... get the mics and keep an eye out on ebay. I got my snare for $ 130. still can't believe it. there's some deals out there.
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  #11  
Old 12-19-2011, 03:43 AM
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Default Re: Which is more important

Quote:
Originally Posted by pxavier View Post
Damn, is there nothing cheaper?... Now that Bonham's used it all over they cost a fortune.
I hear the Pearl Sensitones sound pretty good. The aluminum one will get you pretty close. The other option is also the Acrolite, you can score a used one for under $100. Slap an Evans Dry batter head on there and you'll get a nice crack out it.
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Old 12-19-2011, 05:17 AM
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Default Re: Which is more important

Dude, you need to learn how to shop. There are alot of used 6.5x14 Supras on the market, and alot of them are in great condition. They are out there, you just have to look. Bonham may have been the biggest star using one, but the drum's been around alot longer than he has and it's always been considered one of the snares to have.

Regarding your plans, get the right drum, and learn how to tune it and play it well. A Supra with white coated ambassadors is capable of so many different tunings and tones, I wonder what people are saying when they can't get it to do anything, or they perceive there is something wrong with it. It ain't the drum, folks. But, you have to start with a good drum to begin with. The Acrolites are very close to the Supras (I've owned all three at one point another in my career - supras, acros, and black beauties), so you can't go wrong with either one.

Another good snare that's kind of a sleeper is the Ahead brass snare drum. That drum rocks and I've seen it being sold new on eBay for $320 or so. Heavy brass, S-hoops, it's like a Black Beauty, but not a Ludwig. Really nice. Everyone needs a pro snare in their arsenal - you can make do with bass drums and toms, but that snare is your signature sound, it's like having a really good lens on your camera. It's important.

Now stop trying to do it on the cheap and get what you need ;)
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Old 12-19-2011, 06:53 AM
pxavier pxavier is offline
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Default Re: Which is more important

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
Dude, you need to learn how to shop. There are alot of used 6.5x14 Supras on the market, and alot of them are in great condition. They are out there, you just have to look. Bonham may have been the biggest star using one, but the drum's been around alot longer than he has and it's always been considered one of the snares to have.

Regarding your plans, get the right drum, and learn how to tune it and play it well. A Supra with white coated ambassadors is capable of so many different tunings and tones, I wonder what people are saying when they can't get it to do anything, or they perceive there is something wrong with it. It ain't the drum, folks. But, you have to start with a good drum to begin with. The Acrolites are very close to the Supras (I've owned all three at one point another in my career - supras, acros, and black beauties), so you can't go wrong with either one.

Another good snare that's kind of a sleeper is the Ahead brass snare drum. That drum rocks and I've seen it being sold new on eBay for $320 or so. Heavy brass, S-hoops, it's like a Black Beauty, but not a Ludwig. Really nice. Everyone needs a pro snare in their arsenal - you can make do with bass drums and toms, but that snare is your signature sound, it's like having a really good lens on your camera. It's important.

Now stop trying to do it on the cheap and get what you need ;)
I don't know about all that. I mean, I'm sure if Bonham had used the Little Squealer, it would be expensive as well... I know you get what you pay for, but this drum is amazing... I heard it from the entrance of my Guitar Center and thought it was coming off the electric drum set in the drum section. When I saw the clerk demo'ing it, I knew that I had saw heaven. (It's alright to laugh fellas, life isn't that serious ;-)). But really, it's not the price, just that I prefer the Little Squealer as opposed to the Supra. I'm sure when Bonham bought it while he was "poor", living with a child and a woman, drumming for nothing, in a trailer working as a carpenter under his dad's supervision (I'm reading his biography now), it didn't cost half as much... It's only because it's associated with a combination of both fame AND craftsmanship. Take the fame factor away, and I'd say you have a Little Squealer. I mean, what do you consider a pro snare, but a well-made one? hopeful it's not just what everyone else is using, 'cause I just bought a 2002 Reverend Al, and it turns out it's rare to find one on stage...

But Bo, I do agree, I think I'll get the drum instead... Studios will be there.
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Old 12-19-2011, 06:55 AM
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Default Re: Which is more important

Quote:
Originally Posted by pxavier View Post
Take the fame factor away, and I'd say you have a Little Squealer.
No.....you'd have a Supra.

But that doesn't change the fact that if that particular drum speaks to you (the Pork Pie), then have at it.

Last edited by Pocket-full-of-gold; 12-19-2011 at 08:28 AM.
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  #15  
Old 12-19-2011, 07:09 AM
audiotech
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Default Re: Which is more important

You've already received good advice on your snare sound, now pertaining to the microphone situation. I'm not quit sure what microphones are in the package that you mentioned, more so, unless you are very, very fortunate, don't expect pro studio results with your first journeys into recording. If you wish, you could just start off recording your practices, but if you need a more semi pro take on things, it would be much better at first to hire a studio. Getting pro quality sound is much more than sticking a microphone in front of something. I would fully concentrate on your bands sound and let the worriment of getting that sound to the people with experience.

I still believe that recording your rehearsals is a great step to achieving a great, tight sounding band.

Dennis
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Old 12-19-2011, 07:35 AM
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Default Re: Which is more important

Quote:
Originally Posted by pxavier View Post
I mean, what do you consider a pro snare, but a well-made one? hopeful it's not just what everyone else is using, 'cause I just bought a 2002 Reverend Al, and it turns out it's rare to find one on stage...

But Bo, I do agree, I think I'll get the drum instead... Studios will be there.
A pro snare is not something that I think everybody else is using, but there's a reason everybody is using it. You have to look at a professional application. If you were working all the time, the last thing you need is something that has to be constantly fixed, or constantly tuned. You want it to work every time. The parts have to be strong enough to handle what you're putting in to it, and the Supra, and many others do this. I noticed that when you look at the new market, this usually means snares that fall into that 300+ dollar range. I've played intermediate snares like Sonor's 3007, and although a cool drum, the hoops weren't up to the pounding I put out and sometimes the strainer loosened itself up under my playing, causing me to constantly adjust it. The snare beds weren't cut as nice as on, say, a DW maple Collector's snare, and out of the box, they come with cheap heads.

Nowadays I play the Tama Stewart Copeland chrome over brass snare and everything about that drum is solid. I tune it, and it stays there. I set the snares to be at a certain tension, and it stays there. Thick brass shell, you get what I mean.

Look at guitars, there's a reason you're average working guitar player isn't playing a Fender $179 Squire Strat as opposed to a real $500+ Stratocaster. The more you pay, the better the circuitry, and the better chance that it will handle a gig and not fail at an inopportune time.

I'm not saying you can't find deals on good used pro gear, you can. The last Acrolite I bought only cost me $80. I put new snares and new heads on it and that drum was rock solid, and could easily hold its own against a Black Beauty (some BB owners would argue that, of course). But if I recall that Gretsch Blackhawk was an entry-level kit. You will see an immediate jump in sonic quality once you jump up to a pro-level snare. It might have the affect on you that you replace the rest of the kit as well!
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Old 12-19-2011, 08:24 AM
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Default Re: Which is more important

People here are giving you the true story ... that Pork Pie snare $249 ... you can get into a 14x5 Supra for $199 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_500wt_1202 here. And it's gonna retain it's value way better than any Pork Pie. Sure, a 6 1/2 is gonna cost more ... but compared to what you have now. The 5" Supra is gonna kill.
Certainly, if you think the Pork Pie is the godhead of snares, then buy it. A guy can never have enough snares.
I have one of the Ahead 14x6, and it's a killer drum. I traded for it, but what I traded cost me $300. Great deal. If you want good/great deals ... stop buying "new" at Guitar Center" ... that's just totally bogus !
There are tons of hidden gem snares out there. Yamaha makes a snare, that is so close to the Supra ... and you can find those used for $99. Tama and Pearl, also. Go forth, play drums, listen, .... a cat I know has a Gretsch kit like yours, and the snare ... it ain't so bad. You could make it work, with new heads. Buy the mics .... hold off on the snare purchase (for now) and when you do buy, buy used ... A used Pork Pie snare is gonna sound just as good as a new one ... but a "used" one will cost you less.
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Old 12-19-2011, 06:39 PM
pxavier pxavier is offline
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Default Re: Which is more important

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
A pro snare is not something that I think everybody else is using, but there's a reason everybody is using it. You have to look at a professional application. If you were working all the time, the last thing you need is something that has to be constantly fixed, or constantly tuned. You want it to work every time. The parts have to be strong enough to handle what you're putting in to it, and the Supra, and many others do this. I noticed that when you look at the new market, this usually means snares that fall into that 300+ dollar range. I've played intermediate snares like Sonor's 3007, and although a cool drum, the hoops weren't up to the pounding I put out and sometimes the strainer loosened itself up under my playing, causing me to constantly adjust it. The snare beds weren't cut as nice as on, say, a DW maple Collector's snare, and out of the box, they come with cheap heads.

Nowadays I play the Tama Stewart Copeland chrome over brass snare and everything about that drum is solid. I tune it, and it stays there. I set the snares to be at a certain tension, and it stays there. Thick brass shell, you get what I mean.

Look at guitars, there's a reason you're average working guitar player isn't playing a Fender $179 Squire Strat as opposed to a real $500+ Stratocaster. The more you pay, the better the circuitry, and the better chance that it will handle a gig and not fail at an inopportune time.

I'm not saying you can't find deals on good used pro gear, you can. The last Acrolite I bought only cost me $80. I put new snares and new heads on it and that drum was rock solid, and could easily hold its own against a Black Beauty (some BB owners would argue that, of course). But if I recall that Gretsch Blackhawk was an entry-level kit. You will see an immediate jump in sonic quality once you jump up to a pro-level snare. It might have the affect on you that you replace the rest of the kit as well!
I DEFINITELY agree haha, when I changed the heads it sounded 10x better. I've played "pro gear" at open mic's, but I prefer my own drum kit. I spend a lot of time with the tuning, seems to get me an amazing sound.

Quote:
Originally Posted by harryconway View Post
People here are giving you the true story ... that Pork Pie snare $249 ... you can get into a 14x5 Supra for $199 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_500wt_1202 here. And it's gonna retain it's value way better than any Pork Pie. Sure, a 6 1/2 is gonna cost more ... but compared to what you have now. The 5" Supra is gonna kill.
Certainly, if you think the Pork Pie is the godhead of snares, then buy it. A guy can never have enough snares.
I have one of the Ahead 14x6, and it's a killer drum. I traded for it, but what I traded cost me $300. Great deal. If you want good/great deals ... stop buying "new" at Guitar Center" ... that's just totally bogus !
There are tons of hidden gem snares out there. Yamaha makes a snare, that is so close to the Supra ... and you can find those used for $99. Tama and Pearl, also. Go forth, play drums, listen, .... a cat I know has a Gretsch kit like yours, and the snare ... it ain't so bad. You could make it work, with new heads. Buy the mics .... hold off on the snare purchase (for now) and when you do buy, buy used ... A used Pork Pie snare is gonna sound just as good as a new one ... but a "used" one will cost you less.
Yeah, that's very true. My snare sounds great, as you can see in the video below, but I have a drum solo in one of my band's songs and it doesn't have the sound I'm looking for. Here's a video of us playing:
https://www.facebook.com/video/video...=2440827777977

And what do you think of these two drums side by side?

Ludwig Vintage LM400 Supraphonic Snare Drum 5x14
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fHyS--3y_8
VS
Vented Pork Pie (7x13)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVzs3...eature=related
AND
http://www.hazelshould.com/products/snare/pork-pie/165

Last edited by pxavier; 12-19-2011 at 07:19 PM.
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