18x14 bass drum not only to jazz?

[JaQ]

Is the bass drum suited to something more than just playing jazz songs or any other light music, where the kick only indicates its presence?
I mean, or give to a soft rock, funk and other styles of music? Obviously not ask about the metal
I know that 20 "is adequate, but I ask whether the 18" enough?

[Bo Eder]

It depends on how much you need. If you're miking up all the time, you can go with a 16" bass drum if you like. But if you need to fill up the bottom end and there is no sound system, the 18 would be a little small. You could make it work, but then you could be defeating yourself when a bigger drum would make your life so much easier. All those hits Bernard Purdie played on were with an 18 bass drum, but he was mic'd all the time.

Depends! Is the drum strong, structurally and have pressence or is a quiet drum. Does it sound better ported or with a full reso head" Are you mic'ing it? Do you have 18" subs? Your question has a dozen questions to be answered before a comment can be made. How loud is the backline its competeing with?
I used a 16x18 (Eames) for years, playing swing, blues and rock. I mic'ed it with a D112 and ran it through JBL 18s it kicked butt. When I played low profile gigs (quiet gigs) it did great on its own when the electric guitar, bass and pianos played an appropreiate volumns. So the answer was YES for me I don't know with you because theres circumstances that need to be dealt with. Playing dry off the band stand with pros who work solid dynamics, or in a concert type setting where the backline is mic'ed up. Doc

[toddbishop]

You can do whatever you want with it as long as it's miked, or if the group isn't too loud.

[drummerjims]

Ok so I had this thought the other day at work and I think this is the perfect thread for it.

I have a drum set with a 22 inch kick and i have one with an 18 inch kick. I tend to play my 18 on almost all gigs. It is a sound i enjoy.... even though my favorite is a 20... There is one big problem that we face with an 18 and I believed this started when the gretsch catalina clubs came out (correct me if I am wrong.) More people today are buying 18 inch kicks. Some are buying because they play jazz and some are playing them because of the great price you can get on them now. the problem with that is............... PEOPLE THINK YOU CAN MAKE AN 18 SOUND JUST LIKE A 22!!!! You can't. End of story. You can get a similar sound but it won't have that sound. If you buy an 18 wanting the sound of a bigger drum you are going to be disappointed. However if you buy an 18 and realize what sound its supposed to have and you are ok with that you will be over joyed.

Now I know not all of this applies to you this was really just a short rant. But as far as an 18 inch kick in rock music goes I say do it. Somebody in jazz made a switch from the giant bass drums of the big band era to a smaller 18. It defined a new sound. Well nothing is wrong with not have something that is standard. It puts a new twist on the music and makes you a more identifiable drummer. The sound of an 18 is not wrong its just different.

If my memory serves me correctly Tim "Herb" Alexander played an 18" with primus as his main kit on a lot of albums and live performances. So unless you are trying to emulate a sound I say that an 18 is just fine for a rock gig.

[drummerjims]

wow I got a little off topic there but if someone wants to disagree with me please do so. I like when people have different opinions.

[moontheloon]

love the 18 on my Catalina.... suits all situations well for me....

[drummerjims]

Originally Posted by moontheloon

love the 18 on my Catalina.... suits all situations well for me....

I have the Catalina and it also suits all situations for me. I have also play a yamaha recording custom with an 18 quite a bit and it was the same deal.

[JaQ]

Thanks You for the replies ! Really helped.

I know the 18 "will not sound the same as 22" but not what I wanted to discuss

the question is whether enough for 18 "to the soft rock music
Let me add a question, just to play the music with his friends in a small room without a mic ?

[drummerjims]

I don't see why that wouldn't work. It will will just fine.

[Davo-London]

I use an 18" with SKII and D6 Audex mic. That seems to work for anything I play.

Davo

[drumdevil9]

I have a Catalina with an 18 and I've used it for rock gigs and rehearsals. Worked better than fine.

[caddywumpus]

Originally Posted by drummerjims

PEOPLE THINK YOU CAN MAKE AN 18 SOUND JUST LIKE A 22!!!! You can't. End of story.

No, but you can make an 18" sound pretty close to a 20", so that's all you need. But, the real beauty of a 20" is that you can make it sound like an 18" AND a 22".

I love my 18" bass drums, though. They do have a certain special character to them...

[Davo-London]

I think I would prefer overall a 20" to an 18", but I prefer to carry an 18" to gigs! You can't have it all ways.

Davo

[keep it simple]

Originally Posted by caddywumpus

But, the real beauty of a 20" is that you can make it sound like an 18" AND a 22".

/\ /\ /\ /\ This /\ /\ /\ /\

[Swiss Matthias]

Question: How do you guys mic a bass drum with no hole?

Isn't it very difficult to get the attack that way?

[keep it simple]

Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias

Question: How do you guys mic a bass drum with no hole?

Isn't it very difficult to get the attack that way?

Sort of depends on how much attack you want really. I think the conventional wisdom is that players who prefer a full reso head usually require less attack in their sound. A bit of lift on the EQ to bring out the attack will normally be enough. Alternatively, slackening the reso head will bring the drum sound more towards slap than boom. Outside of that, on bigger gigs, when I'm using a full reso head, I put a D112 on the batter side of the bass drum (also benefits the bottom end of the floor tom by default) & a subkick (or alternative big diaphragm) mic on the reso head.

[Pollyanna]

Great posts, guys. Thanks.

I never gave it much (read: enough) thought. For years I had a 22" because that's what everyone around me seemed to be using in the late 70s, early 80s - 22" with 16", 13" & "12" toms.

When I bought the Rhythm Traveler I wasn't worried about the 16" kick. I just figured that I'd find a way to make it work. And I did, kinda, but there's noticeably less presence and richness. There's nothing quite like the boom of a well tuned larger bass drum - a great addition to a band sound (and one I'm not providing ... for now).

Still, the 16" sounds great when mic'd, as per earlier comments.

[BradGunnerSGT]

Originally Posted by JaQ

Is the bass drum suited to something more than just playing jazz songs or any other light music, where the kick only indicates its presence?
I mean, or give to a soft rock, funk and other styles of music? Obviously not ask about the metal
I know that 20 "is adequate, but I ask whether the 18" enough?

Tim Alexander from Primus rocked out with dual 18's all through the 90's...

man, i used to have my live recordings from dallas clubs, gave it to my old keyboard player to rip to his comp....that band and i had a bad falling out, so i never bothered to get them back. my live kit is a catalina club, 18x14 kick, sounded like a 22x18 when i'd tune it low, with barely any eq.

[caddywumpus]

Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias

Question: How do you guys mic a bass drum with no hole?

Isn't it very difficult to get the attack that way?

Nope. Mic it smack dab in the middle of the reso head. Or, mic the batter head. Easy peasy lemon squeezy, fo sheezy...

[Deathmetalconga]

Originally Posted by Bo Eder

It depends on how much you need. If you're miking up all the time, you can go with a 16" bass drum if you like. But if you need to fill up the bottom end and there is no sound system, the 18 would be a little small. You could make it work, but then you could be defeating yourself when a bigger drum would make your life so much easier. All those hits Bernard Purdie played on were with an 18 bass drum, but he was mic'd all the time.

True, mics and sound systems make drum size irrelevant. Heck, many people play on e-kits that have no resonant qualities at all! Most drummers will play unmiked anyway a lot of the time, so an 18 should be fine. I've been playing almost 30 years and I've never, ever heard anyone ask the drummer to play louder.

[audiotech]

Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias

Question: How do you guys mic a bass drum with no hole?

Isn't it very difficult to get the attack that way?

You wouldn't believe how many times I've heard that said. Microphones are transducers which change mechanical vibrations into a very small electrical current. If they are good quality microphones they'll do just that with very little manipulation to to the sources frequency response that is entering the mic, so even being amplified, an 18" drum should sound exactly like the 18" before a microphone was ever introduced. There are multiple things that can shape the sound, but that's really not the responsibility of the microphone itself. So by very deliberate positioning of the microphone, anything can be amplified, go to tape or hard drive or whatever. Some microphones work better at picking-up some sound sources than others, but they are all work basically the same way. I own ported resonant heads, but hardly ever use them because I like the sound and feel of my drums unported. Most microphones used for miking the front head of the bass drums are usually a dynamic coil microphone, but I have in many cases used condenser microphones if the studio has what I want.

All situations are not exactly the same, you must use your experience and above all your ears when positioning microphones.When miking the resonant head, I'll position the microphone about 1 inch in from the edge of the hoop. This way the cardioid pick-up pattern of the mic will see across the entire area of the head and not just one concentrated spot. I always use a microphone with little or no proximity effect so that it will not muddy up the low frequency energy from the bass drum. Heads, tuning, the microphone and its placement and the room all contribute to the overall sounds of the drums.

Yes, you can get great sounds, even without a hole.



Dennis

[Bo Eder]

Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga

I've been playing almost 30 years and I've never, ever heard anyone ask the drummer to play louder.

Perhaps I was being too jazzy, but I did play a rock n roll bar once and the patrons wanted to know if I could play louder. True - you never hear that one everyday. After that, I'll just bring in my own PA system too ;)

[Deathmetalconga]

Originally Posted by audiotech

You wouldn't believe how many times I've heard that said. Microphones are transducers which change mechanical vibrations into a very small electrical current. If they are good quality microphones they'll do just that with very little manipulation to to the sources frequency response that is entering the mic, so even being amplified, an 18" drum should sound exactly like the 18" before a microphone was ever introduced. There are multiple things that can shape the sound, but that's really not the responsibility of the microphone itself. So by very deliberate positioning of the microphone, anything can be amplified, go to tape or hard drive or whatever. Some microphones work better at picking-up some sound sources than others, but they are all work basically the same way. I own ported resonant heads, but hardly ever use them because I like the sound and feel of my drums unported. Most microphones used for miking the front head of the bass drums are usually a dynamic coil microphone, but I have in many cases used condenser microphones if the studio has what I want.

All situations are not exactly the same, you must use your experience and above all your ears when positioning microphones.When miking the resonant head, I'll position the microphone about 1 inch in from the edge of the hoop. This way the cardioid pick-up pattern of the mic will see across the entire area of the head and not just one concentrated spot. I always use a microphone with little or no proximity effect so that it will not muddy up the low frequency energy from the bass drum. Heads, tuning, the microphone and its placement and the room all contribute to the overall sounds of the drums.

Yes, you can get great sounds, even without a hole.



Dennis

I have never cut a hole in any of my drum heads. It seems like cutting a hole in any reso head - tom, snare or bass - would affect the sound. I can see a small hole in the shell to reduce pressure, but why have a reso head if you're going to remove 20 percent of its area?

[Pass.of.E.r.a.]

Originally Posted by caddywumpus

No, but you can make an 18" sound pretty close to a 20"

So then in theory since it sounds like a 20" It should be hard to get it to sound like a 22". And if it sounds like a 22", a 24" isn't out or the realm of possibility. And Since you can get it to sound like a 24" it'd be easy to get it to sound like a 26!! Who knew! An 18" bass drum can sound like a 26!!

That's how it works right?


*ahem*

Yup I have an 18" birch bass drum, and it sounds phenomenal in low volume settings due to its resonance. It really helps fill out the bottom end, and it has great attack to it too!

of course mine is 16" deep, but to answer the title question, No, IMO 18" bass drums are not only for jazz.

-Jonathan

[Bo Eder]

Originally Posted by Pass.of.E.r.a.

No, IMO 18" bass drums are not only for jazz.

-Jonathan

Well, here's a flammable quote though, "18's are for weaklings who can't afford real cars to carry real bass drums"

There. I said it.

;)

[Davo-London]

Bo, you're right I am a weakling.

Davo

[caddywumpus]

Originally Posted by Pass.of.E.r.a.

So then in theory since it sounds like a 20" It should be hard to get it to sound like a 22". And if it sounds like a 22", a 24" isn't out or the realm of possibility. And Since you can get it to sound like a 24" it'd be easy to get it to sound like a 26!! Who knew! An 18" bass drum can sound like a 26!!

That's how it works right?

No.

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