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  #1  
Old 08-31-2011, 12:59 AM
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Default What happened here?

Hey all -

So, recently I put a clear Remo Emperor on my 10" bubinga tom, and the other day I noticed it just went completely muted. In the beginning you barely saw some 'oil' close to the edge, but now, the 'oil' looks like it spread throughout the whole head. Now I'm getting this Evans Hydraulic sound. Of course, I replaced it.

But does anyone know what happened and why? The other heads are all fine.

X-file?
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  #2  
Old 08-31-2011, 01:08 AM
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Default Re: What happened here?

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Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
Hey all -

So, recently I put a clear Remo Emperor on my 10" bubinga tom, and the other day I noticed it just went completely muted. In the beginning you barely saw some 'oil' close to the edge, but now, the 'oil' looks like it spread throughout the whole head. Now I'm getting this Evans Hydraulic sound. Of course, I replaced it.

But does anyone know what happened and why? The other heads are all fine.

X-file?
Supposedly there's no oil in them. The rainbow you see is supposedly just the surface film from the two plies of mylar. I don' really know about that, but from what you're describing, I'd say you broke a ply. I play on this kit at a 24/7 prayer and praise center that gets used well over 40 hrs/wk. When one of the plies on the G2's goes, the same thing happens.
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  #3  
Old 08-31-2011, 01:12 AM
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Default Re: What happened here?

You had a bad or loose ply. The Emperor heads have nothing between the plies but they're not meant to touch much, if at all. For there to be obvious 'rainbowing' the plies need to be touching. If one ply is loose in comparison to the other then that will happen and the drum will sound dead. If you play it, it'll stretch the top ply even more and make the problem worse.

There's a reason I play single-ply heads!
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  #4  
Old 08-31-2011, 01:48 AM
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Default Re: What happened here?

Ah. Thanks! Not sure I'll go back to regular ambassadors yet, but thanks for the warnings. I love the emperor sound, just never had this happen before, very strange.
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  #5  
Old 08-31-2011, 01:57 AM
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Default Re: What happened here?

Yep, no oil mate. The "rainbow" is light reflection through the two plies....known as Newton rings. It's not uncommon at all. It's apparent on any clear Emperor.

I've had problems with a 2 ply head on 10" toms and smaller before too. I honestly just think they're a little thick to allow enough resonantion in smaller shells. It may be damaged, but more often than not I just think they're a little thick. Try a single ply and see how you go.
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  #6  
Old 08-31-2011, 02:52 AM
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Default Re: What happened here?

Bo, you were fooled by the old Newton Ring trick.
I first noticed them way back when many years ago.
I never knew what they were until a few years ago when I read about the phenomenon here in a thread on DW.
The toms on my old Gretsch have Newton Rings on the Emp's right now.
There was nothing wrong with your head.
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Last edited by bobdadruma; 08-31-2011 at 03:08 AM.
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Old 08-31-2011, 03:15 AM
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Default Re: What happened here?

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Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
There was nothing wrong with your head.
You're sure about that???
:-)
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Old 08-31-2011, 03:41 AM
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Default Re: What happened here?

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You're sure about that???
:-)
The Newton Rings will go away in a month or two when the humidity gets lower.
My two ply heads get them often during the summer months.
There are threads about it here.
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Old 08-31-2011, 03:47 AM
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Default Re: What happened here?

But in this case, why would it affect only one head out of the 7 heads I'm using? I'll hold on to the head and see what happens, but the broken ply sounded feasible to me.
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Old 08-31-2011, 03:55 AM
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Default Re: What happened here?

I have had it happen to one head on my kit before.
It is just light being bent like a prism.
That head may have been in the right place at the right time and the rings appeared.
I have been seeing them on two ply heads since I was a kid.

Ask the Evansprez, he will tell you the same.
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Old 08-31-2011, 03:55 AM
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Default Re: What happened here?

Bo...how long was the head on the drum before it went mute on you and did did it sound good up until it went mute? Just curious.
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  #12  
Old 08-31-2011, 03:55 AM
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Default Re: What happened here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
But in this case, why would it affect only one head out of the 7 heads I'm using? I'll hold on to the head and see what happens, but the broken ply sounded feasible to me.
It's a clear head no? If there's a broken ply, it'll be as obvious as the nose on your face. How hard can it be to spot? As I said, try a single ply head on it. i honestly think the thicker head is choking.

EDIT: Hang on...are you disputing the light spectrum?. Check the cover of Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon for a more famous example. It's a very real and very common phenomenon. The Newton rings are reflected light, pure and simple...nothing at all to do with a broken head. Check your science books.
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Old 08-31-2011, 04:16 AM
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Default Re: What happened here?

Here is a video.
http://youtu.be/PU-SeNfIRcs
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  #14  
Old 08-31-2011, 04:18 AM
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Default Re: What happened here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteN View Post
Bo...how long was the head on the drum before it went mute on you and did did it sound good up until it went mute? Just curious.
The head is only 14 days old, and it sounded great. It only went mute the other day. And no, I can't see anywhere the ply could have broken, that's why I'm suspecting maybe it broke around the collar or something....

But I'll hold on to the head and see what happens.
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  #15  
Old 08-31-2011, 04:24 AM
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Default Re: What happened here?

Here is a better vid.
http://youtu.be/eEfMiZfmBzo
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Old 08-31-2011, 04:29 AM
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Default Re: What happened here?

Mylar is made from oil and polymers. There will always be a hint an oil film on mylar.
The last video addresses this near the end.
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  #17  
Old 08-31-2011, 05:23 AM
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Default Re: What happened here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
The head is only 14 days old, and it sounded great. It only went mute the other day. And no, I can't see anywhere the ply could have broken, that's why I'm suspecting maybe it broke around the collar or something....

But I'll hold on to the head and see what happens.
yeah...sounds like a collar thing! I'm like the idea of single ply heads on small toms more and more!
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  #18  
Old 08-31-2011, 05:31 AM
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Default Re: What happened here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteN View Post
yeah...sounds like a collar thing! I'm like the idea of single ply heads on small toms more and more!
It's just never happened before. Very strange. All these years and nothing like this. I'm interested to see if Bob's right on this.
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Old 08-31-2011, 05:41 AM
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Default Re: What happened here?

If your head is bad it isn't because of the Newton Rings.
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Old 08-31-2011, 05:47 AM
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Default Re: What happened here?

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Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
It's just never happened before. Very strange. All these years and nothing like this. I'm interested to see if Bob's right on this.
I think bob's right that it's not a newton ring thing and if the collar has let loose somewhere that would explain why your rainbow colors look different than the other day.
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  #21  
Old 08-31-2011, 05:55 AM
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Default Re: What happened here?

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Originally Posted by PeteN View Post
I think bob's right that it's not a newton ring thing and if the collar has let loose somewhere that would explain why your rainbow colors look different than the other day.
Possibly. I'll check it when I get home tonight. But it went from having minimal newtons close to the edge, to the whole head having them. I think the bottom layer snapped out of the collar - it has that nice dead muted Evans hydraulic sound. Perhaps the Pinstripe solved that issue by using the pinstripe to adhere both layers together?
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  #22  
Old 08-31-2011, 06:04 AM
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Default Re: What happened here?

I'd be willing to bet that a ply has just slipped a bit from the collar. I've had this happen with another brand of head. You couldn't really tell what was wrong (other than the sound) until you took the head off the drum. Then you could tell that the bottom ply was looser than the top. It totally killed the sound.
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  #23  
Old 08-31-2011, 06:21 AM
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Default Re: What happened here?

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Originally Posted by IDDrummer View Post
You couldn't really tell what was wrong (other than the sound) until you took the head off the drum.
Just realised I didn't actually mention this before when I said it would be easy to spot. Truth is, I didn't consider it as I thought it would be stating the bleeding obvious.....but it's prompting me to ask the question nonetheless. Bo, tell me you've actually taken the head off the drum? If you're trying to asses issues with the head whilst it's still on the drum, we're never gonna let you live this one down!! :-)
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Old 08-31-2011, 06:24 AM
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Default Re: What happened here?

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Originally Posted by Pocket-full-of-gold View Post
Just realised I didn't actually mention this before when I said it would be easy to spot. Truth is, I didn't consider it as I thought it would be stating the bleeding obvious.....but it's prompting me to ask the question nonetheless. Bo, tell me you've actually taken the head off the drum? If you're trying to asses issues with the head whilst it's still on the drum, we're never gonna let you live this one down!! :-)
No it's off the drum. I already changed it out and then rushed out the door to get to work. So I won't be able to really look at it until I get home. I'm gaining much from the theoretical discussion, though. It'll point me in some directions when I actually do get to see what may have happened.
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  #25  
Old 08-31-2011, 06:27 AM
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Default Re: What happened here?

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No it's off the drum.
I NEVER doubted you mate! .....well, not much anyway. :-)
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  #26  
Old 08-31-2011, 09:47 AM
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Default Re: What happened here?

I'd go for the Newton's Rings theory. These are a phenomenon that is caused under specific circumstances. First you need two parallel reflective surfaces in very close proximity. There has to be some air trapped between the surfaces.
Then if light shines through both surfaces and various other factors are present then you can get Newtons Rings.
I know about this because it's an effect you get in a photographic enlarger. It is caused when air is trapped in the glass plates of the negative carrier and the image is projected onto the print thus ruining it.
So the point is, there must be air trapped between the surfaces of the head.
So air is getting in somewhere.

Sherlock :)
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  #27  
Old 08-31-2011, 11:02 AM
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Default Re: What happened here?

Well, upon close inspection, I could find no evidence of the bottom ply pulling out. Perhaps Bob is right and it's just condensation between the plies that will hopefully dry out. But you know how you can tap the head when unmounted and hear some kind of tone? Well, this one sounds totally dead and much lower in pitch then the new one which rings at a higher pitch. I'm flummoxed. No damage to the collar (unless the glue broke inside the collar and you can't see where its gotten loose).

I put it in the box and out in the garage where it can enjoy some dry heat for a few days.
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  #28  
Old 09-01-2011, 05:24 AM
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Default Re: What happened here?

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Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
But does anyone know what happened and why?
Remo quality control.
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