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  #1  
Old 08-10-2011, 01:08 AM
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Default My transformation is complete

So I'm reading the "mixed hardware" thread and rather than add to that one, I thought I'd report in that my transformation is now complete. I've completely moved away from all things Drum Workshop.

Like everyone else it started with the pedals, and then two complete DW kits. And not to knock them, but after spending so much money, I kept wondering why my drums just sounded like everyone elses' (even though everybody was playing a DW kit at one point). I began not liking the sound when everyone else sounded just like me, and I couldn't make them sound different, they just sounded wrong when you did that to 'em. The drum clearly says it'll sing best when tune to ____________ (insert John Goode note recommendation here).

Then the hardware - as brilliant as it is, it forces you to buy a pickup truck with a liftgate if you ever plan on moving it yourself on one-night stands. Or it's all broken up among several smaller cases so you can manhandle it into the little car! Talk about defeating the purpose of the single trap case, eh?

So I'm happy to report I've gone back to my circa 1980 Tama Titan hi-hat and King Beat pedal, and the rest of my simple set-up is Pearl 900 straight cymbals stands and snare stand and my Roc-n -soc throne. My back-up pedal is even a late '80s Tama Flexi flyer with the strap!

Yes, I could've stayed with DW hardware and just went lighter (like the 3000 stuff) but you know, when you're popular because every drummer on the planet wants DW, the prices are ridiculously high for what amounts to slightly better-engineered Sound Percussion stuff (sorry light DW fans).

So, I have left one DW 5000 Delta II turbo pedal basically brand-new if anyone wants it. PM me and we'll discuss it.

I'll keep the baseball hat though. That's useful on a cold day.
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Old 08-10-2011, 01:17 AM
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larryace larryace is offline
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Default Re: My transformation is complete

Nice going Bo. Take that, unnecessarily heavy hardware!

One day I will lighten up too.
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Old 08-10-2011, 01:42 AM
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Default Re: My transformation is complete

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Nice going Bo. Take that, unnecessarily heavy hardware!

One day I will lighten up too.
Well, I didn't really lighten up. That Pearl 900 series stuff is heavy, but not DW heavy. And the original Tama Titan hi-hat and King Beat pedal, although not as heavy, are still considered heavy. I still need the stability I'm used to. I've just left DW to everybody else. I really wish I could say their drums sound incredible, but they don't. They don't sound $4500 incredible. Maybe $2200 incredible, which puts 'em in the same range as everyone else.
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Old 08-10-2011, 01:50 AM
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Default Re: My transformation is complete

Your transformation is complete for this week.
We all know you Bo. LOL
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Old 08-10-2011, 02:03 AM
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Default Re: My transformation is complete

Well done, Bo. It's not about the brand. It's about what feels best to you. I'm glad you're happy with your new setup.

However, I must say.. No need to bash on DW. Their drums may not sound $4500 to you, but they may do for someone else (who maybe thinks your King Beat pedal is pure sh**).

BTW, hey, please don't take it personally, I never owned anything DW.. just saying. We all like different stuff, there's no absolute truth regarding personal tastes. :)

Cheers.
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Old 08-10-2011, 02:44 AM
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Default Re: My transformation is complete

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFYO43UCMYE

I've never referenced Family Guy before but I figured this was a good time!
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Old 08-10-2011, 06:29 AM
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Default Re: My transformation is complete

Quote:
Originally Posted by diegobxr View Post
Well done, Bo. It's not about the brand. It's about what feels best to you. I'm glad you're happy with your new setup.

However, I must say.. No need to bash on DW. Their drums may not sound $4500 to you, but they may do for someone else (who maybe thinks your King Beat pedal is pure sh**).

BTW, hey, please don't take it personally, I never owned anything DW.. just saying. We all like different stuff, there's no absolute truth regarding personal tastes. :)

Cheers.
OK. Maybe I've gone a bit too far, fair enough. On the other hand, it's good to question a drum company who continues to produce gear as if the average casual gigger has access to two roadies to move their gear around with a moving van. There are a few people here who've already made up their minds to never use the heavy DW stuff opting for lighter (dare I say, "reasonable"?) hardware. I've just recently had discussions with a couple of hard working drummers who are beginning to question why people must have bass drum pedals that you can't fold up - let alone have to have a separate case for a piece of gear that's supposed to fit with the rest of the gear in a trap case.

And I am not being a Luddite about it. I marvel at the wonderful engineering of drum hardware over the last twenty years. Things have really improved so much from what was offered in the '70s. I've even tried to use the stuff, so you can't say I'm blindly saying the heavy stuff is crap. I really tried to work with it. But the increasing weight and the fact that if I wanted to move a cymbal stand, I actually had to get up from behind the set, go to the front of it, brace myself and breathe in, then lift to move, really gets old when you're just trying to play the friggin' music. Granted, I don't want the old days of flat-based cymbal stands that could get knocked over if I hit it too hard, but I wonder who really needs a cymbal that feels like it's been concreted into the floor?

The drums are great too, I suppose. But whatever they're doing to their drums to make them sound great, I've already discovered Ludwig had done it to their kits from the 60s and 70s - sans telling you what kind of wood it was or without telling you it was made from a tree that was found at the bottom of the Potomac River. I joked that everything DW has done, has already been done, thus they're a company that didn't really come up with anything new on their own. Better made maple drums? OK. Better. But not really a new thing. Better made Camco pedals? OK. Better. Again, not a really new thing. It's like DW wants to be Ludwig, or Gretsch, or Slingerland. But they want you to pay the prices you'd normally pay for complete innovation, which they' haven't really done.

Sorry for the extreme dig, but again, I tried it and owned it. It's not a theoretical discussion for me.

Really, I'm not trolling. Let the flames begin!
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Old 08-10-2011, 06:43 AM
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Default Re: My transformation is complete

Haha, when I read the title I thought you were going to tell us that you had fully transformed into a giant anthropomorphic mouse...
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Old 08-10-2011, 01:17 PM
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Default Re: My transformation is complete

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
But the increasing weight and the fact that if I wanted to move a cymbal stand, I actually had to get up from behind the set, go to the front of it, brace myself and breathe in, then lift to move, really gets old when you're just trying to play the friggin' music.
I don't own DW but I've played my share of heavy hardware and I'm with you 100% on this. It really is excessive with some of these stands.
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Old 08-10-2011, 09:51 PM
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Default Re: My transformation is complete

I am still a DW hardware user. Yeah it's heavy, but I like it. I do agree with Bo, though, it does seem a bit excessive at times. I also had 2 DW Collector's Maple kits, and I'll tell you flat out that my current Pearl Session Maples blow both of those kits out of the water.

To take the discussion a step further: I'm to the point where I feel I can really appreciate even the little nuances in cymbals. At the same time, I'm leaning more and more toward the " a drum is a drum" side of things. Not completely, but if you put good heads on a kit and tune it up, it really doesn't matter that much. To me, the cymbals are where the quality really matters, and not even so much that they "sound good", but that they sound good across several different dynamic levels and styles. Versatility is key.

I'll even go so far as to say I woudn't mind playing an old Percussion Plus out of a dumpster, but give me my K's and I'll make the whole getup sing!
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Old 08-10-2011, 11:39 PM
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Default Re: My transformation is complete

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
OK. I joked that everything DW has done, has already been done, thus they're a company that didn't really come up with anything new on their own. Better made maple drums? OK. Better. But not really a new thing. Better made Camco pedals? OK. Better. Again, not a really new thing. It's like DW wants to be Ludwig, or Gretsch, or Slingerland. But they want you to pay the prices you'd normally pay for complete innovation, which they' haven't really done.

Sorry for the extreme dig, but again, I tried it and owned it. It's not a theoretical discussion for me.

Really, I'm not trolling. Let the flames begin!
With all due respect to DW players and DW fans, I agree. Even if I could afford them, which I cannot, I would not buy DW's. Peace and goodwill.
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Old 08-10-2011, 11:53 PM
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Default Re: My transformation is complete

I still use the DW hi-hat stand that I bought 15+ years ago and it's going strong! But that's the only bit of DW anything I have anymore.

Not that I ever had a lot, just 2 snares that were so underwhelming that they didn't stay in my possession beyond a couple months: a special order Collectors maple 6x14 (too boxy and dull) and an Edge 6x14 (louder and sharper, but still a bit boxy and lacked character).

It's not even that I mind that everyone else is using them (I'm using an LM402 which is hardly unique), it's more that I'm not crazy about the re-ring sound and the sky-high pricing. There's also something in the vibe that I can't get past; I don't know if it's the lugs (which I've never liked) or what, but there it is.

Even Tama (home of the over-engineered Titan stands from the '80s, which I still own plenty of) has been making lighter, more drummer-friendly hardware.

I'm with you, Darth Bo.
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Old 08-11-2011, 04:05 AM
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Default Re: My transformation is complete

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Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
I still use the DW hi-hat stand that I bought 15+ years ago and it's going strong! But that's the only bit of DW anything I have anymore.

Not that I ever had a lot, just 2 snares that were so underwhelming that they didn't stay in my possession beyond a couple months: a special order Collectors maple 6x14 (too boxy and dull) and an Edge 6x14 (louder and sharper, but still a bit boxy and lacked character).

It's not even that I mind that everyone else is using them (I'm using an LM402 which is hardly unique), it's more that I'm not crazy about the re-ring sound and the sky-high pricing. There's also something in the vibe that I can't get past; I don't know if it's the lugs (which I've never liked) or what, but there it is.

Even Tama (home of the over-engineered Titan stands from the '80s, which I still own plenty of) has been making lighter, more drummer-friendly hardware.

I'm with you, Darth Bo.
Thanks MikeM. Funny thing was, ever since I played an old Camco kit that a friend had, I've always loved those round turret lugs. Hayman didn't quite pull off that look, but they're another story. I had two DW snares and really couldn't do anything with them. It's nice to hear others who experience the same thing. I thought it was me!

And this could just be me, but there is this sort of elitest vibe I get when I meet amateurs who own DW. It's a shame and highly amusing when they get a quick social-music lesson on the spot, though.

And like joshvibert below, I've learned long ago that the drums don't matter as much as the cymbals. Which Is why I have great cymbals. I can make anything else work. The reason why I stay with the high-end stuff is mainly because I don't want to have to be fiddling around with it on a gig. I buy it because it works. The mistake many people make is that there are more than your favorite drum brands out there that can do that. But then again, I always say that if you're going to go into debt for it, or sacrifice your life for a year to save up money, you might as well get what you want. If that's DW, Tama, Yamaha, Ludwig, etc.,....they all make good drums.

The only "this is better than that" statement I might believe came from pianist Keith Jarret. He has both Baldwin and Steinway grand pianos in one room. He says the blues sound better on the Baldwin. Only he would say that!
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Old 08-11-2011, 05:14 AM
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Default Re: My transformation is complete

I have to agree. At one point I thought DW was simply the best and I wasn't worthy to own one (nor could I ever afford one lmao). So I always stick with Tama because they never seem to disappoint and are very durable and just sound the best to me.

Anyways, one day I went to a massive music store (their selection of drum gear is second only to Sam Ash or MDS as far as I've seen) and they had a dw collectors set. I thought holy crap, I'm finally going to hear one of these puppies in person and was very disappointed in their sound. Next to it was a Pearl Masters. Possibly one of the most beautiful kits I've ever seen or heard. This thing was awesome. Then, next to that was a Gretsch Renown in natural finish. Again, sounded and looked unbelievable. Then, next to THAT was a brand new Starclassic Maple that just blew my mind.

All of these kits just destroyed the DW in looks and sound and I realized just because a kit is custom and hand made to my specifications, and ungodly expensive, doesn't mean it's the best. To this day I still haven't decided between the Gretsch, Pearl, or Tama sets there.
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Old 08-11-2011, 05:48 AM
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Default Re: My transformation is complete

My introduction to DW drums was when I got to hang out with Johnny "Vatos" Hernandez from Oingo Boingo one evening in the mid-80s. And to him, drums were drums. He had a 26" DW bass drum that he took the front lugs off of, and he used it to carry his other toms. He carried it like a bag of groceries into the club and I carried his cymbal bag. He's rough on his stuff and those drums just handled everything he threw at it. But in reality, the kit didn't sound fantastic. It did it's job and that was it. As the 90s rolled-in we got into this "pure open sound" that Neil Peart told us all about (again) and I thought it funny that he found it with Ludwig. I have to hand it to DW, they probably got us all thinking about how drums were actually musical instruments again, but Yamaha and Tama hit that chord years earlier with the Recording Custom and Artstars in the 80s.
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Old 08-11-2011, 07:57 AM
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Default Re: My transformation is complete

What I find amusing in some of these threads is, someone may have heard or played a DW set of drums and might think that they are trash. Well that's all well and good, but DW has more than the one make of kit that 99% of the people are most familiar with, The Maple Collectors. DW also makes birch kits, Jazz kits that have basically the same shell composition as the Gretsch USA Custom and my favorite, The Classic kit with mahogany and poplar shells with maple re-rings. All three kits have very different sounding shells. I personally don't care very much for the sound of the Collector series, if I did, I would have had them years ago.

I'll give a few more examples. Since I don't really care for the sound or looks of the Ludwig Epics or Centennials, does this mean that I should never play or purchase their Classic Maples or Legacy lines? The Yamaha Stage Customs are alright drums, but should I put all of Yamaha lines including the Absolute series also in the "just alright" category? They all have the Yamaha name and logo on them. Maybe I heard a set of Pearl Forums that didn't sound quite right to me. It could have been the tuning of the kit, the heads or maybe even the sound guy but why take a chance, I'll completely disregard their Masters, Reference and Masterworks lines because of what I thought I heard.

I'm just putting certain things into perspective when completely generalizing any certain company. Oh, I heard that someone on the Internet broke a Vic Firth stick. I'll never buy those sticks again, lol.

Good night.
Dennis
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Old 08-11-2011, 11:21 AM
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Default Re: My transformation is complete

I'd agree about the hardware. I prefer Gibraltar's stuff, which IMO is even better made. More than stable enough and so easy to work with.

I'll probably never get rid of my DW 5000 hi-hat stand and BD pedal, though. Their weight and stability is a huge reason why I like them.

Tried a friend's Pearl Masters free floating maple snare yesterday. Amazing drum!
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Old 08-11-2011, 06:26 PM
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Default Re: My transformation is complete

I went to the light side 2 years ago, and I'll not haul around any heavy stands again.

I own a bunch of Gibraltar Bake Tilter gear, and that stuff is GREAT, but it's super heavy as well.
I just put my Liquid Drive hat stand up for sale, and that thing weighs a lot more all by itself, than my lighter weight DW stand does WITH the hats ON IT.

I do really like my DW lighter stuff though. I wanted, and dig the cymbal adjustment, and the integrated memory locks. Memory Locks are a must for me. I just want to set it and not think about it, unless I want to move something.

The thing I DON'T like about DW is the Collector's series sound. Never have liked it.
Now, the straight shells I like (Jazz, old Workshop/new Performance series). THOSE drums sound really good to me.
I never bought into the high dollar finishes. They look great, but I want to play my gear on gigs, not have it sit at home and take out a "beater" kit.

It also perturbs me about DW's "innovations" that are re-makes of shells that other companies have had forever. The shells are well made, but they don't sound 1K more (than other stuff) "better".
I also believe that anyone who can really tune a drum kit can sound good on pretty much anything.
The enthusiasm is there in the company too (John Good), but the marketing is what irritates me sometimes.

I still just prefer my Ludwig stuff.

It's just the sound in my head of what MY drums sound like. Simple, always works design in the shell. I can use any head combination I want, and tune them the way I want and they sound great. Easy as pie.
In 35 years I've never had a bum experience with anything Ludwig, so it's worked out.
It's also very reasonably priced gear IMO.

The DW Performance stuff I could really like though. I have too many kits, and I wouldn't sell them, but if I only had one kit, and was looking at another, a Performance kit would be a high consideration.
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