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  #1  
Old 06-22-2011, 01:28 PM
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Mighty_Joker Mighty_Joker is offline
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Default Uptempo jazz studies - dancing on the ride and comping

As the title suggests, something I'm working on a lot at the moment is uptempo jazz work. Specifically, the 300-350bpm (crotchet pulse) range.

As well as John Riley's fantastic bop drumming books, I'm studying his Master Drummer DVD, as well as Tommy Igoe's section from G.E. 2.0 on very fast swing.

I'm having a little trouble with two areas. Firstly, at the top ranges, circa 350bpm, I'm starting to lose a little control on the stroke. Rather than keeping up a constant jazz-ride pattern, or controlled ride "dancing", I find myself just trying to keep to the tempo. I'm not tensed and work hard at staying relaxed, but the control is lacking. What is a good way to practice this? As I've said, this is uptempo study, so I feel like I should practice it at the high tempos. Up to and including the 300ish mark, my ride technique is fine, and I've put a good few years into practicing it slowly, so I'm not convinced continued slow practice will improve extreme uptempo technique. At this tempos, is it a case of practicing fast to get used to it?

Secondly, comping while dancing. Notwithstanding the above problem, when I have a comfortable ride feel at these tempos, I find I have lost much control of my comping. At a steady tempo, even high-mid swing like 250pm, with a steady ride pattern, I have relatively good comping control on all of my limbs. Playing uptempo however, especially with an erratic ride pattern, the comping feel disappears and I can't place the left hand a kick drum strokes where I want them.

Again, how can I work on this? Would you recommend I apply John's comping exercises to these tempos to get used to playing at these speeds, or set it at, say, 270, and work up gradually.

I understand slow practice, and I do it a lot, but I'm at the stage, having studied jazz for a few years, that it seems more and more that uptempo is a different animal altogether.

Any thoughts and advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks

P.S. Just a quick question; on Tommy's DVD when he's talking about groove 79, he talks about uptempo survival, and that if you try to keep up the ride pattern constantly at extreme speeds, "you're dead". Am I to take from this that it simply isn't feasible to keep up a constant spang-a-lang ride pattern, or is ride "dancing" simply a musical choice? John's technique on the DVD seems perfectly capable of maintaining the spang-a-lang at these speeds for long periods of time.
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Old 06-22-2011, 01:53 PM
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Swiss Matthias Swiss Matthias is offline
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Default Re: Uptempo jazz studies - dancing on the ride and comping

Could you record a video of you playing the jazz ride at 300 to 350?

I remember Jack DeJohnette saying something like that in those uptempo areas
his strokes come pretty much from the thumb.

In my experience there's one point where the fingers just aren't fast enough anymore
to compede with the speed the stick is able to bounce. I don't know if that's true, because
I personally don't see a reason for me to play faster than about 300 at this point, so I
don't practice over 300.
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Old 06-22-2011, 02:51 PM
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Default Re: Uptempo jazz studies - dancing on the ride and comping

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias View Post
Could you record a video of you playing the jazz ride at 300 to 350?
I can try. Hang on...

Last edited by Mighty_Joker; 06-22-2011 at 03:27 PM.
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Old 06-22-2011, 03:48 PM
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Default Re: Uptempo jazz studies - dancing on the ride and comping

Ok, here's a quick video showing about where I am on the ride playing. It's actually remarkably difficult to play the right hand on its own, while holding a camera. Any little bits that are out of time are probably a combination of not-mastered technique and not being able to hear the metronome very well. Hopefully gives you some idea.

Let me know when you've watched it so I can take it down, not really something I want to share while I'm still working on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iiq-t8RBJRM

(if it doesn't load, just keep trying, it might still be processing on YouTube as I've only just uploaded it.)
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Old 06-22-2011, 04:23 PM
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Default Re: Uptempo jazz studies - dancing on the ride and comping

doesnt sound so bad to me
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Old 06-22-2011, 04:32 PM
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Default Re: Uptempo jazz studies - dancing on the ride and comping

sounds good to me too. RE: the comping, i have the same issues. i have tired "Tony-isms" that i use over & over & need some new stuff. sometimes organic comping just does not flow for me at the higher tempos & the auto-pilot just gets in the way of piano comping / solos, etc. lately, i just find 4 bars at a time from one of Tommy's Birdland uptempo tunes on youtube & just shed that pattern over & over.
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Old 06-22-2011, 04:36 PM
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Default Re: Uptempo jazz studies - dancing on the ride and comping

Quote:
Originally Posted by double_G View Post
sounds good to me too. RE: the comping, i have the same issues. i have tired "Tony-isms" that i use over & over & need some new stuff. sometimes organic comping just does not flow for me at the higher tempos & the auto-pilot just gets in the way of piano comping / solos, etc. lately, i just find 4 bars at a time from one of Tommy's Birdland uptempo tunes on youtube & just shed that pattern over & over.
Yeah, I know what you mean. That's exactly what I'm trying to avoid. I've got a few "go to" patterns that just get repeated. I'm trying to integrate John Riley's Master Drummer exercises into the uptempo work, but it's rather difficult. If you haven't got it by the way, I'd highly recommend this DVD.
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Old 06-22-2011, 05:00 PM
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Default Re: Uptempo jazz studies - dancing on the ride and comping

yeah been wanting to get John Riley's DVD. also i tried doing stick control patterns w/ the uptempo jazz & they sound to mechanical, old-school. so i am always on the hunt for 4 bars from Igoe, Smith, Mayer, Riley, Hamilton, etc. that i can condense to a 4 bar pattern & shed.
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Old 06-22-2011, 07:41 PM
birks10 birks10 is offline
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Default Re: Uptempo jazz studies - dancing on the ride and comping

Joker.... I concur also: "Looks/sounds pretty darn good to me!" Sounds like from your original post, that its just a matter of spending lots of ....years....(sorry), playing this over and over again, to condition your right hand for this dotted 1/8th- 16th note pattern at high speeds. It's good that you give your hand a "break" by stroking a few 1/8th notes in there. I do the same and have for 45 years.

There is also the "collapse technique" for playing this at higher speeds, where you are essentially pressing or collapsing 3 notes out of each beat. Which at a high rate of speed, makes the dotted 1/8 th-16th sound virtually no different from the jazz pattern.

For "comping", i still think the seminal work out there for what you want is Chapin's. Playing those solo/comping patterns against the jazz ride is the way to it. Also, spend a lot of time watching those Buddy Rich videos and ....just copy what he did. (No, really...) Slow them down and analyze. It's do-able.

But, I was impressed with your technique on the video.

Kelly
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Old 06-22-2011, 08:08 PM
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Default Re: Uptempo jazz studies - dancing on the ride and comping

Thanks for all the encouragement, it's good to know I'm on the right track.

@birks10: Which Chapin exercises are you referring to?
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Old 06-22-2011, 08:21 PM
birks10 birks10 is offline
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Default Re: Uptempo jazz studies - dancing on the ride and comping

"Advanced Tech for the Modern Drummer." Its just a good way to get your left hand used to playing against the ride pattern. Obviously, we don't want to actually play those exercises in a musical genre. But it will give you the facilities to play what you want to play.

Left hand comping is about listening to the the pianists for the most part (in a jazz motif). Sometimes, i play the figures that the horn player may be playing in his solos. But we don't want to "interfere" with what they are playing either.

Kelly
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Old 06-22-2011, 08:31 PM
John Riley John Riley is offline
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Default Re: Uptempo jazz studies - dancing on the ride and comping

Hi M_J,

Thanks for your kind words about my DVD.

I watched your youtube clip and you are playing that fast tempo very well. It does look like have a bit more pressure between your thumb and first finger than I do. Try loosening up at that point - I can take my first finger off the stick and everything still works fine. When you take your first finger off, try to increase the distance from the tip of your thumb to the 3 fingers still on the stick. This "long thumb" position will give you more leverage with those fingers.

Regarding comping at these extreme tempi: of course you have to thin it out when playing with people but I still work on increasing the tempo I can play the prime ideas on the DVD.

Hope this helps,

John
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Old 06-22-2011, 09:14 PM
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Default Re: Uptempo jazz studies - dancing on the ride and comping

John, thanks for taking an interest and taking the time to comment. Your educational resources have really helped my drumming over the past few years, and it's really inspirational to have you say a few words of encouragement yourself. I'll certainly try your suggestions; I had wondered if my fulcrum was too tense, so I'll work on relaxing it.

Thanks Kelly as well. I know the book you're talking about, my teacher has had me work out of it a few times. He rates it very highly so I'll take a second look.

Good thread!
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Old 06-23-2011, 01:07 PM
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Default Re: Uptempo jazz studies - dancing on the ride and comping

I would like to take the opportunity to thank you, John Riley, for your great books and DVD.

I've been working on your material on and off for many years, and as I wish to develop my jazz drumming further these days, I've been working intensively on your stuff in the last few weeks or months. One of the things I've been working on lately is your cross-sticking ideas and patterns.
Although I've been playing for many years, for some reasons I had always avoided crossing my arms at the set, except for playing the hi-hat. I feel your patterns offer me many great new possibilities.

Cheers
Alain
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Old 06-24-2011, 02:16 AM
bolweevil bolweevil is offline
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Default Re: Uptempo jazz studies - dancing on the ride and comping

Just like to join the others in noting how nice your ride work is, M_J. After watching your clip I had to try it out myself, and I must say if you can comp at all at that tempo then your hard work has paid off. Personally I can keep the ride pattern going but at that speed I can do little else to accompany.
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Old 06-25-2011, 01:25 AM
zap98 zap98 is offline
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Default Re: Uptempo jazz studies - dancing on the ride and comping

I never studied jazz study material. I can play at bop tempos, I can play ride patterns, fills, consistently.

Relax your muscles, adjust your arms, elbow and wrist, find the sweet spot. And more tension to the grip, subtract less tension on the grip. Find the sweet spot.

To dance on the ride, alternating from a the 3notegroup forward motion phrase, i usually play a syncopated 'latin bell' type thing, or a chopped up version of that in artspeak. Whatever comes out.

A tip: The key is to relax and focus your attention and your 'voice' on the ride cymbal in the part of the music that 'requires' or that you 'want' the ride cymbal to be focal. When I mean focus not intense concentration, a distance away attention, so you can keep an sense of the other drums and cymbals, etc, that are within reach. Listen and Sing. It is a state of mind. Another tip, feel you are centred on the kit. It will fall together or pool together and you will have the benefit of your studies. A state of mind for this is easier said than done.

Good luck.
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Old 06-25-2011, 04:41 AM
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Default Re: Uptempo jazz studies - dancing on the ride and comping

There are great comping ideas in Jon Riley's Art of Bop Drumming- use the two-voice eighth note comping ideas. Obviously they are great for mid-tempo swing, but they sound great at fast straight-eight speeds too. Just tasty little phrases.
Also helpful is doing these snare/bass exercises over the ride/hh straight fast jazz patern:
groups of 3's: ssbssbssbssb...
groups of 5's: bssbsbssbs...
paradiddle-diddles (groups of 6's): ssbsbbssbsbb (sounds good if pattern starts one eighth before the downbeat)
groups of 2's: sbsbsb...
These help acquire the skill to drop any snare/bass combination wherever you can imagine putting them.
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Old 09-19-2011, 06:40 PM
Richard.Awesome Richard.Awesome is offline
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Default Re: Uptempo jazz studies - dancing on the ride and comping

Thank you for the tips everyone. I am having a lot of trouble in the 235+ range currently. I notice my fingers are coming off the stick, this doesn't sound like it should be happening?
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Old 09-27-2011, 04:32 AM
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Default Re: Uptempo jazz studies - dancing on the ride and comping

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighty_Joker View Post
John, thanks for taking an interest and taking the time to comment. Your educational resources have really helped my drumming over the past few years, and it's really inspirational to have you say a few words of encouragement yourself. I'll certainly try your suggestions; I had wondered if my fulcrum was too tense, so I'll work on relaxing it.

Thanks Kelly as well. I know the book you're talking about, my teacher has had me work out of it a few times. He rates it very highly so I'll take a second look.

Good thread!
Another concept to work on for uptempo phrasing is the clave pattern translated into jazz time. The 2-3, 3-2 Son and Rumba clave are both incredibly useful, hip patterns that are not only highly practical, but they flow beautifully at those fast tempos.

They also lend themselves perfectly to constant invention and variation and the syncopation of them is classic jazz. From memory, the first two patterns out of the Art of Bop eighth note snare and bass comping section are basically the type of thing I'm talking about. Check it out. Learn the 4 main clave patterns above, then, to start out with, add bass after each snare note, or just play every second note as bass or vice versa.

Another thing that I found really loosened up my phrasing at 300+ is to do a lot of practice on the upbeat of every 1/4 note. Start by going through singles, doubles, diddles, 3 note snare-snare-bass and snare-bass-bass type stuff all on each upbeat. Being able to hear and play the offbeats at those tempos seems to create a real fluidity and ease to uptempo playing. It's very much in the idea of Riley's headroom/excess capacity concept.

Have fun. As always though, it's just a practice thing and you're clearly on the right track and will get there sooner than you think with consistent, focused practice.
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Old 10-02-2011, 02:50 AM
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Default Re: Uptempo jazz studies - dancing on the ride and comping

Hey Mighty Joker,

I wanted to say I COMPLETELY feel where you are coming from on this because I have also been working hard on uptempo playing. Comping and playing time with a loose and relaxed improvisational voice at these tempos is an incredible challenge. I wanted to add my perspective and some ideas for practice in an attempt to help further the discussion.

The thing that I have been working on recently is singing a melody while playing uptempo. I generally use an uptempo friendly piece like "Cherokee", and then try to keep the melody going while practicing various comping patterns. For comping patterns some of my favorite resources are:

The aforementioned uptempo section of Riley's "Beyond Bop Drumming"
Gregory Hutchinson on "Whirlybird" from the Ray Brown Trio's "Live at Scullers"
Karriem Riggins on "Caravan" from the Ray Brown Trio's "Live at Starbucks"
Philly Joe on "Dr. Jackle" from "Milestones"
Kenny Washington on "In the Still of the Night" from the Bill Charlap Trio's "Written in the Stars" (brushes)

I then take the given comping pattern or idea through the form a couple of times, trying to hear how it sounds in relation to the melody (right now I am working with the metronome set at whole note = 90). After that feels comfortable I will try changing comping patterns in every section of the song.

There are a number of reasons I think that singing the melody while you are playing can really strengthen your uptempo playing, but the basic idea is that you should practice in as close to a complete musical environment as possible. Or in other words, make your practicing more like actual performance. Singing the melody while practicing is one thing you can do to help bridge the gap between practice and performance.

I am putting together a blog post about this right now, and I will post a link here when I am done with it so you can check out more if you are interested.

Hope this helps.
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Old 10-02-2011, 04:30 PM
ChuckSilverman ChuckSilverman is offline
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Default Re: Uptempo jazz studies - dancing on the ride and comping

I've used the first few pages of Stick Control to enhance my comping at fast tempos. These 8th notes in Stick Control are interpreted as quarter notes against the cymbal rhythm. After I discovered this idea, I then went to a very old book by Alan Dawson, to a section called "Developing Musical Drum Solos". I used the exercises there in the same way. The exercises are written as eighth notes and I reinterpreted them as quarter note phrases against the cymbal rhythm. These techniques really do work.
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Old 10-03-2011, 02:05 AM
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Default Re: Uptempo jazz studies - dancing on the ride and comping

There are many exercises that you could work on, which everyone's input has displayed some thoughtful ideas to work on. I think it’s best to know for yourself what you need to practice and what comping patterns work best with your uptempo studies. It's most important that you create your own exercises.

It’s rare that I ever post, but here is my input on uptempo studies:

It’s important just to work on your endurance (playing time without comping). I set my metronome to the half-note and usually don’t go beyond 152, 160. This past week I’ve been at the 132, 138, 144 range. At this range there’s a gradual switch between swinging your notes and straightening them out. I usually select a tempo and play time for 10 minutes and then start throwing in some comping ideas for a minute or two (after the 10 minutes) just to check my timing.

I’m usually counting 1 e & a 2 e & a… instead of 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 (Jack DeJohnette ). This really opens things up a bit, especially for comping.

I’ve worked on Riley’s uptempo exercise in “Beyond Bop Drumming”. I think the exercise is beneficial and challenging, but it’s not the most musical. I’ve had much better results practicing from pages 18 - 21 out of “The Art of Bop Drumming”. The comping patterns in these pages may be too dense for fast tempos, but practicing pages 18 & 19 and applying Pacing and Rhythmic Transposition ideas has worked very well with my overall comping and feel for song form (playing the exercise while singing a tune – developing counter melodies).

Comping patterns for fast tempos should be kept SIMPLE. Here are a few ideas:

First and foremost, work on your ride cymbal phrasing and develop your comping ideas off of the ride cymbal at all tempos.

Try working with half-note triplet (270 and below) and dotted-quarter note permutations.

Get comfortable on all eighth notes in a bar. First eighth note on One and Three, Second eighth note on the & of One and Three, Third eighth note on Two and Four, and the Fourth eighth note on the & of two and four.

Linear patterns for hands. G.L. Stone pages 5-7. R=Ride Cymbal, L= Snare Drum with Feet playing ostinatos. Quarter notes Hi-Hat w/foot (Tony Williams), Samba, Baiao,Tumbao, HH on down beat (1 & 3).

Bob Moses’ Pivot Points (Resoulution Points??). Accent on one or multiple eighth notes in a 4 or 8 bar phrase. For example, the & of beat 3 in the first bar.

Take pages 10-11 from Ted Reed. Play written notes with Ride Cymbal and fill in eighth notes with SD, BD, or HH.

Inverted Doubles.

3-Stroke displacements.

The ideas are endless. Come up with your own exercises and keep practicing them. Start at slow tempos. Take breaks often to avoid injury. Breathe and relax. Listen to “Four and More”. Don’t forget to pick up the brushes. Be creative. Thanks.
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Old 10-03-2011, 06:41 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
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Default Re: Uptempo jazz studies - dancing on the ride and comping

Nice substantive posts, people. And welcome to the forum, Andrew!

This would be a good time to link to my "what is up" (that's what I should have called it) post. I've given the metronome markings for a bunch of famous/favorite jazz recordings of the 50's-60's- good for gaging where you stand with your fast tempos. Listening to the recordings, those famous drummers are very fluent up into the HN=150 range; around 150-165 you start feeling some pressure; above about 170 they sound much more like they're playing for survival- increasingly so as you get above 180. Max Roach with Clifford Brown and Sonny Rollins, and Billy Higgins/Ed Blackwell with Ornette Coleman are the fastest things I know of.
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Old 10-03-2011, 11:45 PM
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Default Re: Uptempo jazz studies - dancing on the ride and comping

Thanks Todd!

Also, I promised a more fleshed out posting about the uptempo exercises I am working on, and here it is:

http://haredrums.blogspot.com/2011/1...slow.html#more

Let me know what you guys think.
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Old 01-02-2012, 04:20 PM
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Default Re: Uptempo jazz studies - dancing on the ride and comping

Here is a new post on uptempo jazz comping using the melody of "Anthropology":

http://haredrums.blogspot.com/2011/1...gy-part-2.html
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Old 01-02-2012, 05:42 PM
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Default Re: Uptempo jazz studies - dancing on the ride and comping

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
Nice substantive posts, people. And welcome to the forum, Andrew!

This would be a good time to link to my "what is up" (that's what I should have called it) post. I've given the metronome markings for a bunch of famous/favorite jazz recordings of the 50's-60's- good for gaging where you stand with your fast tempos. Listening to the recordings, those famous drummers are very fluent up into the HN=150 range; around 150-165 you start feeling some pressure; above about 170 they sound much more like they're playing for survival- increasingly so as you get above 180. Max Roach with Clifford Brown and Sonny Rollins, and Billy Higgins/Ed Blackwell with Ornette Coleman are the fastest things I know of.
Thanks for that! Remarkable how things can get sped up sometimes!!

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