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  #1  
Old 05-11-2011, 01:13 AM
DumDrum DumDrum is offline
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Default Need advice on In Ear Monitoring System and Buttkicker transducer

Hello,

As the title of the thread says, I am looking to put together an in ear monitoring system with a buttkicker throne shaker... I don't have a lot of money to spend but i have a couple pieces of gear that I can hopefully use to complete this system. Please keep in mind that I know almost next to nothing as far as technical sound equipment goes... if I were to have a conversation with someone about sound gear, I would probably come off as semi-retarded... i hit things with drum sticks and make sounds come out of them!

So anyways, here's what I have.. I have a small Yamaha 12 channel mixer model number mg12/4, and a rack mountable Sampson S-phone 4 port headphone mixer/amp. Are these suitable pieces of gear for what I have in mind? I have looked at some DJ rack cases to place the mixer on top and the headphone amp in the rack slots, and i guess I need one more slot to place the power amp for the Buttkicker unit... Does anyone recommend a case? I'd like something fairly compact and maybe with wheels since I'll be carrying this to all my gigs.

So I guess when I'm planning out this system, this is what it will consist of:

Yamaha Mixer
Sampson Headphone Amp
In Ear Monitors
Buttkicker Concert Transducer
Power Amp for Buttkicker
Various Cabling

For the In Ears I have seen plenty of threads on this so I will do some research and make a purchase... I can't seem to find a whole lot as far as power amps besides the amps that Buttkicker sells.. I saw some Fischer Amps designed to work with the buttkicker as well.. Does anyone recommend a certain power amp that will work with the Buttkicker that will be reliable enough to be carted to and from 2-4 gigs a week? It looks like the bulk of my money will be spent on this amp and I'd really like suggestions on what would be affordable as well as reliable (I live quite a long ways from our rehearsal space and gigs.. I drive on average 5-600 miles a week as it is and gas is killing me in my truck! I shudder to think about the gas prices coming up this summer) So I'd like something that I won't have to replace very quickly.

Thanks for your time in reading this... I know Bermuda has a lot of experience working with Buttkicker so maybe he has some valuable input for me!

Regards,

DumDrum
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  #2  
Old 05-12-2011, 12:45 AM
Wildturkey Wildturkey is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on In Ear Monitoring System and Buttkicker transducer

You should check this out. It's all in one with amp built in
www.porteranddavies.co.uk
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  #3  
Old 05-12-2011, 01:28 AM
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bermuda bermuda is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on In Ear Monitoring System and Buttkicker transducer

I'm not familiar with the particular Yamaha mixer, but that will have the most to do with whether you'll get a clean signal to the ButtKicker, and that's crucial to its operation. You really need a focused, isolated kick send from the mixer. You also don't want much rumble in the kick itself, or it won't translate into a thump... you'll just vibrate when you hit the kick, and that's not going to help you connect with what you're playing.

I also haven't tried the ButtKicker amp, but I think it may be the best deal for the money, and I would hope it's compatible with the ButtKicker itself.

Once you're set-up, I recommend a little kick in your ears just to tie-in the thump in the seat.

Good luck!

Bermuda
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Old 05-12-2011, 09:26 PM
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TTNW TTNW is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on In Ear Monitoring System and Buttkicker transducer

You'll be able to put a rig together with the items you've spec'd out except for that you need to get a power amp with the right power rating.

Also, when I put my rig together, I immediately noticed that I was not getting a short enough kick sound to better define the thump.

Bermuda does this by gating the signal that runs back from the mixer to the ButtKicker.

I am using a ddrum trigger on my bass drum and that signal is routed through a Simmons drum module. Using a short electronic kick sound has accomplished the same thing and eliminated the longer duration sound that was causing extended vibrations instead of a well defined thump.

You can go either way depending upon what signal processing gear you want to get. I went the trigger route so that I would also have some electronic drum sound pads
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Old 05-12-2011, 10:17 PM
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bermuda bermuda is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on In Ear Monitoring System and Buttkicker transducer

Quote:
Originally Posted by TTNW View Post
Also, when I put my rig together, I immediately noticed that I was not getting a short enough kick sound to better define the thump.

Bermuda does this by gating the signal that runs back from the mixer to the ButtKicker.
And that's done right in my O1v mixer, that's why I'm not sure if the Yamaha mentioned will dial it in enough.

Bermuda
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  #6  
Old 05-12-2011, 10:40 PM
DumDrum DumDrum is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on In Ear Monitoring System and Buttkicker transducer

Thanks for the replies fellas, I was waiting for Bermuda and TTNW to chime in as I've taken a look at your threads while researching for these purchases.

So, let me try to explain my understanding since I really don't know what I'm doing just to make sure I'm heading in the right direction. So i can run my kick drum mic (I have the may mic system built into the shell of my DW kick drum) right into my personal mixer, and then run my personal drum mix into the main soundboard the band uses for the PA? And then another line from my kick drum mix into the Buttkicker amp? I love my bass drum sound, it's a 20" kick and it's pretty tight/focused sound with just enough resonance (to my ears)... hopefully I can tighten up the signal with that yamaha mixer.

When I was doing my research on the Buttkicker system, everyone was saying it was well worth it if you had 500 bucks to drop, but when looking for it online, the cheapest I can find is 600... In your guys' opinion, it's still worth it right? I don't know squat about electronics and I'm assuming it's safe to go with the whole system from Buttkicker that includes their own power amp to run it..

As far as the IEM system, the only thing that i can think that I might need is a Limiter for my headphone amp? The whole reason Im making this investment is because as Im older now than I used to be when I played, Im VERY worried about my hearing. Since I got back into music scene, I've religiously worn hearing protection but after a few gigs I realized that I wasn't able to hear the monitor as well as I wanted to, and my solution was to slightly pull my ear plugs out a little bit, which gave me a little hearing protection, but was also defeating the purpose. Is a limiter with my headphone amp necessary? Or if I have the volume on the headphone amp low enough will it really matter? I have nightmares of getting a blast of feedback and ruining my hearing permanently (on the plus side, it'd be easier to tune my wife out if she's bitching at me lol)

Im really excited about having the IEM and Buttkicker system and hope it all pans out the way I envision it!

Thanks!
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  #7  
Old 05-12-2011, 10:52 PM
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bermuda bermuda is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on In Ear Monitoring System and Buttkicker transducer

Quote:
Originally Posted by DumDrum View Post
So i can run my kick drum mic (I have the may mic system built into the shell of my DW kick drum) right into my personal mixer, and then run my personal drum mix into the main soundboard the band uses for the PA? And then another line from my kick drum mix into the Buttkicker amp?
Basically, yes. Your ButtKicker would simply get a 'send' from your mixer. If your mixer doesn't have sends, I guess a line would need to come back to you from the monitor (or foh) board.

Quote:
When I was doing my research on the Buttkicker system, everyone was saying it was well worth it if you had 500 bucks to drop, but when looking for it online, the cheapest I can find is 600...
Try going direct: http://www.buttkickergear.com/ButtKi..._Audio_s/3.htm I notice that only the 300w amp is listed there. They also have a more powerful amp: http://www.buttkickergear.com/product_p/bka-1000-n.htm It doesn't hurt to have some extra headroom and oomph. :) So yeah, there's your $600. :(

Quote:
As far as the IEM system, the only thing that i can think that I might need is a Limiter for my headphone amp?
It's not a bad idea, although at higher volumes you may also experience limiting, and the sound will be very unnatural. I guess it's a matter of fine-tuning the threshhold, etc. I don't use a limiter with my phones, but the mixes and our levels are so dialed-in, there are no spikes. I can't even recall the last time I heard any feedback, even with the mic being carried into the audience.

Bermuda
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  #8  
Old 05-13-2011, 12:41 AM
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TTNW TTNW is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on In Ear Monitoring System and Buttkicker transducer

You can get the Concert model Buttkicker for about $180 and the mounting plate for the drum throne is another $50.

The Buttkicker amp is good and it is a bridged amp but it's primarily designed to be able to power up to four units, so it is a little expensive if you don't plan on running multiple units.

An amp can be the most expensive component to putting this all together and you can find less expensive amps that will work just fine.

I spent about $500 on a Crown XLS series which is way overkill but I also wanted to get a new amp for our PA system, so I splurged and spent a little more.
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  #9  
Old 05-13-2011, 12:53 AM
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bermuda bermuda is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on In Ear Monitoring System and Buttkicker transducer

Quote:
Originally Posted by TTNW View Post
You can get the Concert model Buttkicker for about $180 and the mounting plate for the drum throne is another $50.
I recommend skipping the mounting plate and bolting the unit directly to the seat. The response is better and it's less expensive. :)

Bermuda
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  #10  
Old 05-13-2011, 01:33 AM
DumDrum DumDrum is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on In Ear Monitoring System and Buttkicker transducer

Well the kit from Amazon is 599 with free shipping and comes complete with:

Buttkicker Concert
Throne Mounting Bracket
Buttkicker power amp running 1900 watts at 2ohms
All the necessary cabling to connect the unit to the amp

I guess that's the package I'll be getting... gotta say I've never been more excited about getting my butt kicked

Yah I see your point about the amp TTNA... but i guess having more power is better than not enough... I've read stories about people burning up their amps and I'm guessing that's not likely to happen with this one?

Will the other guys on stage be able to feel the vibrations? I told them about what I'm getting and they kind of looked at me like i was crazy for spending that kind of money on something like this...
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  #11  
Old 05-13-2011, 01:38 AM
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Default Re: Need advice on In Ear Monitoring System and Buttkicker transducer

It sort of depends on the stage floor and how close everybody is to you and how much you have it cranked up..

.. but yes, others can feel it if they're not too far away.
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Old 05-14-2011, 06:27 PM
Twoandfour Twoandfour is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on In Ear Monitoring System and Buttkicker transducer

I'm a serious Gavin Harrison fan, and he uses the BC2 by Porter & Davies. There's a link on his site.
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  #13  
Old 05-14-2011, 10:39 PM
Twoandfour Twoandfour is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on In Ear Monitoring System and Buttkicker transducer

Might help if I attached the link... here it is:

http://www.gavharrison.com/equipment.php
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  #14  
Old 05-15-2011, 10:47 PM
DumDrum DumDrum is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on In Ear Monitoring System and Buttkicker transducer

I looked at that system, and I couldn't find a whole lot of definitive answers as to the exact price, but from what i have seen, it looked like it was way out of my budget so I wrote it off and went with Buttkicker that i saw more information on and was in a price range that i could afford (barely!)

Thanks!
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Old 05-15-2011, 10:55 PM
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bermuda bermuda is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on In Ear Monitoring System and Buttkicker transducer

Their site says 999 for the BC2 I think.

Bermuda
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  #16  
Old 05-16-2011, 04:51 AM
flicky flicky is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on In Ear Monitoring System and Buttkicker transducer

[QUOTEQuote:
Originally Posted by DumDrum
So i can run my kick drum mic (I have the may mic system built into the shell of my DW kick drum) right into my personal mixer, and then run my personal drum mix into the main soundboard the band uses for the PA? And then another line from my kick drum mix into the Buttkicker amp?

Basically, yes. Your ButtKicker would simply get a 'send' from your mixer. If your mixer doesn't have sends, I guess a line would need to come back to you from the monitor (or foh) board][/quote]

Speaking about the line coming back to your mixer from FOH.. If this is for live shows with a band then i'm sure you'll want other instruments in your mix. Would your in ear mix be coming from your mixer or FOH or MON mix's? There are different ways you can make it work.
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Old 05-16-2011, 08:27 AM
brentcn brentcn is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on In Ear Monitoring System and Buttkicker transducer

It is a bit dangerous when you're getting a mix from the soundguy. Even the BEST of them will sometimes twist the wrong knob and send a signal screaming into your ears without knowing. It wouldn't be a bad idea to get a brickwall limiter in the chain (the Dominator would be an ideal choice here), but most musos using IEMs don't do this.

When everyone else is checking their mics, guitars, keys, etc., leave your IEMs OUT! Let the soundguy figure out the problem frequencies and levels, and then put the IEMs back in, volume all the way down, and slowly raise it.

Your mixer does not have gates, so you won't be able to adjust the "length" of the kick signal, which is critical to the Buttkicker performance. You could use a rackmount gate unit (usually they are 4-channels) here, just connect it to the insert on the kick channel on your mixer. To get the kick signal to your mixer, you can connect a mic splitter box (similar in size and shape to a DI box) to your kick mic. The other output of the splitter box would go to the FOH. I think ProCo and Radial even make mic splitters with 3 outputs (one signal for the buttkicker, one for your ears, and one for FOH).

The rest of your IEM mix will have to come from the monitor or FOH board. Have them reserve a "send" on their board for your in-ears mix, and connect that send to an available channel on your board. As you go along, you'll figure out how much of each instrument you'll want in your ears.
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Old 05-23-2011, 12:41 AM
DumDrum DumDrum is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on In Ear Monitoring System and Buttkicker transducer

Hi guys,

Haven't checked this thread in a bit, but I have an update... I got my rig in this week and used it at rehearsal for the first time last night.... It was incredible! The guys in the band were really taken aback when they sat down and tried it out... they were very skeptical at first when I told them about what I had ordered! The only thing bad that happened was about an hour into rehearsal and heavy use (I insisted on starting out our rehearsal with all or our samba heavy tunes and did a 15 minute warmup with lots of kick exercises) the buttkicker's thermal shut down kicked in and shut off in the middle of a song... i put my hand on the transducer and it was very hot to the touch. I know I had it cranked up pretty good, but I'm a little bit worried about all of our outdoor gigs this summer... I guess I am going to start placing my vornado fan behind me pointed at the buttkicker... is this normal? After the unit cooled down, I turned it back on and turned down the volume on the amp and it lasted the rest of rehearsal just fine... How much "thump" do you guys normally use? I had the kick drum mic run into my little mixer with the gain on that channel turned up to around 60-70% and the volume nob on the amp at about 40% and was getting a nice thump with each of the kicks...

As far as the in ear stuff goes, Im still a bit in the dark about how im going to set this up.. Our band's PA is run by a Carvin c1644p mixer and the problem is that no one in the band really knows how to run that board. Before I joined the band, the singer had a sound guy come out and set up the PA and board so basically we have everything set and just plug in and do little adjustments during sound check. Most shows we run sound ourselves from the stage and during our soundchecks the percussionist goes out to the FOH and makes adjustments as necessary. Here is my basic understanding of how to set this up:

Drum mics into personal mixer -> Line out to mixer running foh and one to buttkicker amp -> line into personal mixer from the monitor mix from the foh board? Do I need to buy anymore gear?

I'm sorry if i sound so ignorant about this... i have no clue when it comes to setting up sound equipment.. im actually considering paying that sound guy 75 bucks to come to our rehearsal space and show me how to set it up so we're not fumbling around forever before our gigs... any help would be greatly appreciated!
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Old 05-07-2012, 10:30 AM
SergeKIEFFER SergeKIEFFER is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on In Ear Monitoring System and Buttkicker transducer

Hi
This might be an inspiration?

Here is my In-Ear monitoring system (A-rig) described:
I use my own mics for the kit:
BD-shure beta91
SN-Audix D1
TT-shure beta 98amp
HH-AKG 451-ck1
OH-Oktava mk1

The 9 mics run into PALMER Mic splitters (back of the Rack). They get splittet into the F-O-H signal and my monitoring signal.

The monitoring signal is sent to my A&H 16channel mixwizard, where each mic has its own channel. MAIN R-L is sent to the headphone amp.

The Yamaha REV500 shown in the Rack is for reverb on SN and TT in my headphone (UE 11pro) and sent to 1 channel on the mixer

additionally I have a ZOMM234 for click track (sent to 2 channels on the mixer)

However the best tool in my set is the PORTER&DAVIS BC Gigster. It get's its signal from the BD spitter and is definitely the best investment done for years! In-ear monitoring (my UE 11pro's however are 4 way and sound pretty great) has changed completely with the GIGSTER. You must try this tool ... it is incredible!

Missing link is the band signal which I get from the FOH or on stage monitor guy. I always ask for a mix wzout drums of course (as they come from my mixer).

If I do trio gigs and as I have in total 12 splitters avail and only use 9 for the drums, I am able to sent a BASS, GUITAR and L-VOC signal into the 3 remaining spitters and are able to have a complete independant monitor setup!

Let me know if you have any questions .. ;)

greetings
Serge
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  #20  
Old 05-17-2012, 09:30 PM
Mike7300 Mike7300 is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on In Ear Monitoring System and Buttkicker transducer

Do you have to mic your drums to be able to use an in ear monitor?
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Old 05-18-2012, 09:19 AM
SergeKIEFFER SergeKIEFFER is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on In Ear Monitoring System and Buttkicker transducer

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Originally Posted by Mike7300 View Post
Do you have to mic your drums to be able to use an in ear monitor?
Hi Mike,
Not Necessary , however if you work with custom IE plugs how you think you will hear yr drums?

s
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Old 05-18-2012, 06:45 PM
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bigiainw bigiainw is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on In Ear Monitoring System and Buttkicker transducer

I use an Art mymonitor personal monitor amp with a Shure PSH600 that allows me to mix the overall band monitor mix with my drums and my vocal mic. The PHW600 has a built in limiter to prevent deafness caused by sound engineers and bandmates. If you don't need a vocal input for yourself, the PHW600 will allow you to take an overall mix and a drum mix and mix them to your liking.

I use the in-ears whether my drums are mic'd or not, but I don't use custom in-ears (I use stock Shure in-ears- can't remember which model) so I get some bleed from the kit past the in-ears for the non mid'd gigs. If I'm mic'd up, just a feed from my little mixer to the PHW 600 does the business, so that i can balance the band monitor mix, my vocal and my drums.

It looks much more complicated here that it actually is!
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Old 05-19-2012, 11:42 PM
Mike7300 Mike7300 is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on In Ear Monitoring System and Buttkicker transducer

Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeKIEFFER View Post
Hi Mike,
Not Necessary , however if you work with custom IE plugs how you think you will hear yr drums?

s
I guess my question is, say your playing a small gig with a band. Small enough where the drums do not need to be mic'd. Are IE monitors useless for a drummer in this type of situation?
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  #24  
Old 08-13-2012, 10:10 PM
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BradGunnerSGT BradGunnerSGT is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on In Ear Monitoring System and Buttkicker transducer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike7300 View Post
I guess my question is, say your playing a small gig with a band. Small enough where the drums do not need to be mic'd. Are IE monitors useless for a drummer in this type of situation?
My opinion is that even on small gigs where the drums don't need to be mic'ed I will always throw up at least a kick, snare and overhead. I'd rather have it and not need it than vice versa, especially since it is easy to have the overheads up nice and low just to provide the cymbals with some sparkle and the kick with a little bit of oomph. I hate seeing bands in small venues (or even not so small venues) without overheads, since the cymbals almost always get lost in the mix. I also try to use my in-ears as much as possible (to protect my already-slightly-damaged hearing), so I always try to have them in my ears even on small gigs.

Back to the original topic, I'm extremely interested in either the Buttkicker or the P&D Gigster right now. We played a big outdoor gig on Friday and we had borrowed a couple of dual 18 subs, so we had our normal pair of single 18 subs in the trailer. The bass player mentioned that the last time we played there he really wasn't feeling the kick drum, so he and I got the idea to pull the 18's out and put them face down on the stage about 5 feet on either side of me, and just run the kick drum to them. The whole band felt the kick through the floor, and I felt like I was playing so much tighter being able to roll off the low end in my in-ears (keeping the "click" of the bass drum through the overheads) while also still feeling it through the floor. I think I could become addicted to "feeling" my kick instead of trying to hear it through my in-ears.
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Old 08-15-2012, 11:09 AM
SergeKIEFFER SergeKIEFFER is offline
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Default Re: Need advice on In Ear Monitoring System and Buttkicker transducer

Hi BRAD

Confim yr below statements!
Same for me, even in a really small club environement I MIC my set and use my In-Ear sys. EIther the big rack shown in the pic below or my B-Rig where there is only the gigster and a headphone amp.

If drums is on the PA (small gigs) and I do not mean LOUD on the PA but PRESENT the whole band sound is much tighter. Althought I tent to prefer the toms on the PA than the cymbals ... mine always cut through :)

GIGSTER:
If once you used this tool, you would never want to miss it! Small / medium or big venues ...it is a great tool, and correct your In-ear sound is much "cleaner" if you turn down the low end from the bass drum. It like you would tidy-up yr pracice room ... :)

greetings
Serge
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