Drum kit for a new church band - advice?

[goodrumm]

Hi all,
A rookie poster here! Glad to be on-board. I have a question for you all. I have been asked to play in a new band at my church. Along with this, I have been asked to look into identifying what types of drum/cymbal kits we should consider. I have been out of the drumming arena for some time, so, I’m a little overwhelmed and would appreciate any insight you might be able to share. Not sure if I’m even asking the right questions or providing the right information, but, some of the things I know:

• It will be a contemporary Christian rock band (we’ll play stuff by Chris Tomlin, Mercy Me, etc.)
• The venue will be relatively small (~250 people)
• The drum kit will be mic’d
• We are a little concerned about the drums overpowering the other instruments, so, any ways to tone down the drums would be awesome (suggestions on drum heads, sticks, etc.). We’d like to stay away from the “shields” we’ve seen at some churches (not sure if that is the right term for it – basically, the plexiglass enclosure around the drums.

Some questions:

• What are some brands, or specific kits, I should consider?
• What type of setup would you recommend (e.g., how many toms, cymbals, etc.)
• What type of cymbals would you recommend so as to not overpower the rest of the band
• Any suggestions on drum heads that would be good to consider with the goal of cutting down on the overall volume of the drums

We have a pretty good budget to put together a nice kit, so, we’d be looking at something new or slightly used (probably new though). So, if you could put together your ideal kit knowing the above information, what would it be??? (It's always fun to shop with other people's money!! :).

Any help with the information above, or just any general guidance on things I should start considering as we move down this path would be great.

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide. Looking forward to interacting with y’all.

Mike

[joshvibert]

Hey man, I've been playing in worship bands for 17 years now. You can pretty much make anything sound good with mics and a nice sound system. At that point, the drums almost act like triggers. Here's a short clip of me playing a Yamaha Maple Custom kit a few years back at a worship conference (granted they had the drums in an enclosure) but to the point: The drums sounded AWFUL. The heads were Remo Pinstripes (or Evans Hydraulics maybe), but super-thick, super dead (the duct tape on the bottoms of the heads didn't help resonance any), but throught the system, they sounded huge. That was the way the sound-guy wanted it: All his control.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyMfk...ature=youtu.be

As far as how many drums and what to get, that is 99% personal preference, but a 10/12/14/22 shell pack would serve you quite well for the music you'll be playing. I would go maple for the wood. There are a lot of hybrid shells out now, but they are generally very application-specific. I would recommend staying away from Oak, though. It's very loud and resonant, not ideal for a close-mic scenario. Remo Pin-stripes or Evans Hydraulics will "control" resonance and overtones. 2-ply heads like Evans G2's or Remo Emperors will open the sound a bit. Coated heads will be warmer, clear heads will be brighter. Yamaha used to have a worship-band deal where churches could get discounts on equipment. Maybe check into them. Maple Customs are solid drums, as are their Birch Customs. Avoid lower lines such as Yamaha Stage Customs, Pearl Visions, PDP. They will sound good at first, but will show wear very quickly, particualrly with the hardware.

If it were me, I'd buy either Yamaha Maple Customs, Pearl Master's Customs, or DW Collector's Series.

As far as cymbals, I'm a Zildjian guy. I like K's for worship as I feel that they are the most dynamic. If' it's purely hard and fast, A Customs will work, but they don't do so well at lower levels. Conversely, if the drummer is a super heavy hitter, he'll break the K's left and right. Cymbals is probably the most subjective part of this. Essentially, you'll need hi-hats, a ride, a crash or two and maybe a splash. Not much use for Chinas or other effects cymbals in worship (though it can be done).

I hope this helps get you started!

[?uesto]

Originally Posted by goodrumm

Some questions:

• What are some brands, or specific kits, I should consider?
  If your budget is around $1,000-1,500, look into Mapex Meridian Birch or Maple, Gretsch Catalinas Maple or Birch, Yamaha Stage Customs, etc. If you can afford it, however, take a step up to anything from DW Performance series, Mapex Saturn, Yamaha Oak or Absolutes, Gretsch Renowns, etc.
• What type of setup would you recommend (e.g., how many toms, cymbals, etc.)
  As stated, it's all preference. I'm not too farmiliar with the bands you listed, but most music doesn't call for anything more than a four piece kit. The bigger and louder the music, the bigger the drums you're going to want. For example, 13, 16, 24 would be fore bigger, louder rock, whereas 12, 14 or 16, 20 or 22 would be a good mid level size range.
• What type of cymbals would you recommend so as to not overpower the rest of the band
  I'm first reading the other answer now, and agree 100% with Josh.
• Any suggestions on drum heads that would be good to consider with the goal of cutting down on the overall volume of the drums

If it's lighter and you don't mind changing the heads a tad more frequently, go with one-ply heads, (Remo Ambassador, Evans G1, Aquarian Classic Clear/Texture Coated), or if it's heavier music and it needs to really stand up to harder pounding, go with two-ply, (Remo Emperor, Evans G2, or Aquarian Response 2)

12345678901234567890

[Drumolator]

I my humble opinion, the best crashes for church are Sabian AAX Studio or Dark Crashes because they sound good at various volume levels. Last night at church, I hit the crash cymbals as hard as I could at one point, and later played very softly. AAX is the way to go.

[Frank]

- Sonor Safari
- Wuhan New Traditionals


Do the math. You'll thank me later.

[gavin_rossdale]

use pearl forum.. cheap,,but with good sound..

[Swiss Matthias]

Originally Posted by joshvibert

The drums sounded AWFUL. The heads were Remo Pinstripes (or Evans Hydraulics maybe), but super-thick, super dead (the duct tape on the bottoms of the heads didn't help resonance any), but throught the system, they sounded huge. That was the way the sound-guy wanted it: All his control.

That's about the strangest way of seeing it. Micing drums in the best case is only making
the instrument louder over the PA. It's about the contrary of triggering. If the instrument
sounds beautiful, it'll sound beautiful through the PA. If it sounds awful, the sound guy
can only try to do damage limitation.
And for the record ... the drums in your video example did sound awful still IMO.

[Davo-London]

Listen

You have a similar situation to me. The die-hards in the church do not like it loud. The young uns do. The drum shield cuts the volume so that the band can run with relatively quiet monitors or none and the micing gives the PA controller the ability to get the mix right.

Our church kit is Yamaha Tour Custom and the sizes are 10 X 10, 12 x 12, 16 x 16 and 22 x 20 or some such.

IT IS VERY LOUD and along with the cheap and loud cymbals it is nigh impossible to play quietly. Christian songs are a mix of intensity and volume. IMHO we would be much better with a Sonor Safari / Catalina Jazz set-up with shallow toms and smaller bass and floor tom. Then for most occasions you will be the right volume and you can go up in volume with a PA. So my vote is for Frank's suggestion or equivalent.

Good luck.

Davo

[alparrott]

As far as cymbals, I bought my last church a set of Sabian HHX Evolutions. Beautiful cymbals that do well at any volume. The crashes are like butter, and the hats are great and articulate. (The ride is more crashy-washy than I like, but that might work well on a lower volume situation.)

Get a good, quality maple or birch kit. Take a look on the used market to keep prices down. Or check to see if the local store will discount because it's a church buying. Get all new heads for it unless you're buying new high-end drums. If you buy intermediate you will need to rehead almost immediately.

Don't skimp on hardware. Buy quality, rugged hardware - not necessarily heavy, but reliable for the long term and easily adjusted. Your kick pedal doesn't have to be the best in the world but it does need to be well-made, reliable, and somewhat adjustable. The snare stand must be solid.

If the drums will be moved or stored often, investigate buying bags or cases for them. Unfortunately, even in churches most people treat house drumsets like cheap furniture and do unspeakably abusive things to them. I have seen a beautiful lacquered drumset (that DIDN'T belong to the church) get jammed in a corner of a storage room, and then a couple dozen Manhasset music stands piled on top of it, so that it got scratched up like a cat post.

Buy a few of the little baggies of extra parts, such as tension rods, felt washers, and cymbal thread sleeves. Keep them safe somewhere, like in a tackle box or drawer.

Good luck!

[rstange1]

I've been playing drums in church since the early to mid-90s. I'm not a heavy hitter, but even in big sanctuaries that seat 1500 people, drum volume has at times been an issue. I would gravitate toward smaller four or five-piece fusion, jazz or bop sized drums in an attempt to limit the upper volume levels.

Don't be surprised or disappointed if a plexiglass shield goes up one day. I'm currently playing in a sanctuary that seats 400-500 people and the shield is necessary in that size of room for Sunday mornings. It gives the drummer the ability to play less tentatively without overpowering the room, but necessitates hearing protection for the drummer and makes getting a good working mix for the drummer more of a challenge.

I'm not sure I would pay for a pure maple or exotic wood kit unless I found a good deal used. Church kits just take too much of a beating to spend the congregation's money on high-end drums. If you have the time to shop for quality mid to pro-level name brand used gear, that is where I would start.

Rugged hardware is a must - it will take a beating and the Neanderthals of the drum world will over-tighten everything. Name brand hardware that your local music store stocks spare parts for are what you want, as invariably hi-hat clutches (or parts thereof), tension rods, wing nuts and other parts that rattle loose from neglect will go missing.

There's good advice above regarding cymbals -- I'll throw in a different twist for consideration: Don't buy any cymbals for the church kit. Any drummer good enough to play in a worship service in front of people surely owns a good cymbal or two and pair of hi-hats; and most good drummers bring at least some of their own cymbals to gigs even when the house kit has some. Hauling your own cymbals to a gig isn't a huge burden like dragging your kit around, but leaving cymbals on the house kit encourages all kinds of abuse from folks who shouldn't really be touching the instrument (let alone pounding the daylights out of it).

Best of luck!

[Davo-London]

I agree with the issue of playing tentatively. Far better to be able to go for it. I have in the past used brushes quite a lot for this same reason. It alows me to play with a bit of groove rather than being worried about my volume all the time.

As for bring your own cymbals - love it.

Davo

[08mike11]

There's some good and bad advice in this thread. Nothing gets me more fired up than people thinking drums sound great because of EQ, Compression, Reverb, dual kick channels or any other trick that's involved with the sound board. Drums should NOT act like triggers. If the source sounds good, then a flat EQ output from the sound system should be bearable for a service. Bottom line is, Great input = Great Output, Bad input = Bad output. The sound board should be a tool used to add sparkle to the kit using techniques such as space (reverb), EQing out harsh frequencies in the room, and other things.

Another thing to think about is that a plexiglass shield is not going to reduce the volume but just redirect it. Actually, I've heard audio engineers say it does almost nothing to reduce the volume but it's intended purpose is to reduce drum bleed-in into vocal mics on stage or vice-versa. The best thing to do is pre-mix yourself to the room. I'm not just talking about playing the drums solid and the cymbals soft... Find out which cymbals can be laid into and which have to be feathered.

If you want a good sounding kit, try getting the right sizes. In modern worship music, I tend to hear lots of classic tones, and you can never go wrong with that. Lets start off with the kick drum. You want that nice, tight, huge sounding, punchy kick, right? Well do NOT go with a depth greater than 18". The punchiest kick I've heard live has been a Ludwig from the late 70s that was 14"x20" (depth vs. diameter). I have played a 22"x20" kick and a 16x20" kick and I promise you the smaller size wins. The 22" is really boomy, and tends to have a muddy sound to it. For Worship, I've found that the tighter kick sits better in the mix, especially with the typical bass tones found in worship music.

For toms, i go 9x13, 16x16, and 16x18. If you're budget is limited, don't worry about the 18", It's just useful on extremely "ballsy" fills. Most tom parts in modern worship, such as the one on "Forever Reign" by Hillsong Live can be translated really well with just two toms instead of three. If you can't get a 9x13, a 9x12 rack tom sounds good too.

For a snare, find something that is versatile, something that can reach low thuddy sounds, or a nice high crack. You could get a Ludwig acrolite off of eBay in nice condition for fairly cheap. If you have a few extra dollars, supraphonics are always nice. Other non-ludwig options would include some of the pearl masterwork snares or even the standard snare that comes with the kit you choose to buy.

I've also heard somewhere, or read it, that thinner ply shells have lower volume than drum shells with greater number of plies. Also, with thinner plies, you get more tone and depth to the drum rather than the volume and projection of the thicker plies.

As for drum brands and which set model, I feel like we could help you better if we had a price range.

If you're in the 1,000-1,500$ range, Id go with a Ludwig keystone series, pearl MCX's, or maybe even some of the newer renown maples that Grestch is putting out. I've heard good Yamaha kits as well, I just have an innate disdain for them. They've done nothing to wrong me, I just don't like companies that are good at everything :) You might also check eBay and see if you can find any vintage kits from the late 60s to late 70s. A friend of mine recently acquired a nice blue and olive badge Ludwig from the late 70s and I'm tempted to steal it from him. It's probably the best drum kit I've heard in my 11 years of drumming; I think it was around $1400 or something like that.

If you can get $2k and up, a lot more options open up, such as DW, nicer Ludwigs, Pearls, and Yamahas.

As for cymbals, my personal taste is a 17" k dark custom crash, 21" armand ride, or a 21" sweet ride, and a 20" A custom crash. If the 20" is too big, maybe go with an 18" or 19". You could also go with the K customs in this size too, I just like to have a sparkly cymbal around. As for hats, I'm starting to like the sound of 15" hats, or even the sound of two 16" crashes together. I put a 16" A custom fast crash on bottom with a 16" 2002 paiste on top and it sounded great.

If it wasn't such a small venue, I'd suggest checking out Meinl cymbals but to be honest, they are just explosively loud. Their extra dry hats that Benny Greb uses are extremely nice but expensive. I dont know much about sabian so I'm gonna bite my tongue on this.

To be quite honest, a lot of it comes down to how you tune the kit, and what heads your using. I'm not talking about Remo vs. Evans vs. Aquarian.. I mean single-ply, 2-ply, coated, clear, pins, and which combination in relation to top and bottom you use. I am pretty high on the Aquarian Studio X heads right now though... Maybe I'll feel different after I hear them mic'd, who knows?

Whatever you buy, make sure everything is balanced. Don't go buy a custom DW with sabian b8 cymbals or ZBT's.. Im pretty sure you know this.

Hope this helps, and I'll pray God blesses your worship ministry :D

[Swiss Matthias]

Originally Posted by 08mike11

There's some good and bad advice in this thread. Nothing gets me more fired up than people thinking drums sound great because of EQ, Compression, Reverb, dual kick channels or any other trick that's involved with the sound board. Drums should NOT act like triggers. If the source sounds good, then a flat EQ output from the sound system should be bearable for a service. Bottom line is, Great input = Great Output, Bad input = Bad output. The sound board should be a tool used to add sparkle to the kit using techniques such as space (reverb), EQing out harsh frequencies in the room, and other things.

+1 +1!!

[joshvibert]

Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias

+1 +1!!

In case any of the trigger comments were directed at me, I'll clarify:

I don't think it's a good idea to mute the drums and try to push them through the board. I was simply stating what a lot of my large church playing experiences have been. By all means, let the drums sing and get good tones out of them. You wouldn't put a blanket on your piano's strings and soundboard to quiet it down would you?

[wloeb]

i would recommend a Yamaha Stage custom 4 piece, either with a 20" bass drum or the new bop kit. The Yamaha hardware and tom mount balls will take a lot of abuse and hold up better than other kits in the price range. That would be the basic low cost setup. If budget allows, Yamaha Maple/Birch custom absolute would be a great choice.

[tamadrm]

Originally Posted by 08mike11

There's some good and bad advice in this thread. Nothing gets me more fired up than people thinking drums sound great because of EQ, Compression, Reverb, dual kick channels or any other trick that's involved with the sound board. Drums should NOT act like triggers. If the source sounds good, then a flat EQ output from the sound system should be bearable for a service. Bottom line is, Great input = Great Output, Bad input = Bad output. The sound board should be a tool used to add sparkle to the kit using techniques such as space (reverb), EQing out harsh frequencies in the room, and other things.

Another thing to think about is that a plexiglass shield is not going to reduce the volume but just redirect it. Actually, I've heard audio engineers say it does almost nothing to reduce the volume but it's intended purpose is to reduce drum bleed-in into vocal mics on stage or vice-versa. The best thing to do is pre-mix yourself to the room. I'm not just talking about playing the drums solid and the cymbals soft... Find out which cymbals can be laid into and which have to be feathered.

If you want a good sounding kit, try getting the right sizes. In modern worship music, I tend to hear lots of classic tones, and you can never go wrong with that. Lets start off with the kick drum. You want that nice, tight, huge sounding, punchy kick, right? Well do NOT go with a depth greater than 18". The punchiest kick I've heard live has been a Ludwig from the late 70s that was 14"x20" (depth vs. diameter). I have played a 22"x20" kick and a 16x20" kick and I promise you the smaller size wins. The 22" is really boomy, and tends to have a muddy sound to it. For Worship, I've found that the tighter kick sits better in the mix, especially with the typical bass tones found in worship music.

For toms, i go 9x13, 16x16, and 16x18. If you're budget is limited, don't worry about the 18", It's just useful on extremely "ballsy" fills. Most tom parts in modern worship, such as the one on "Forever Reign" by Hillsong Live can be translated really well with just two toms instead of three. If you can't get a 9x13, a 9x12 rack tom sounds good too.

For a snare, find something that is versatile, something that can reach low thuddy sounds, or a nice high crack. You could get a Ludwig acrolite off of eBay in nice condition for fairly cheap. If you have a few extra dollars, supraphonics are always nice. Other non-ludwig options would include some of the pearl masterwork snares or even the standard snare that comes with the kit you choose to buy.

I've also heard somewhere, or read it, that thinner ply shells have lower volume than drum shells with greater number of plies. Also, with thinner plies, you get more tone and depth to the drum rather than the volume and projection of the thicker plies.

As for drum brands and which set model, I feel like we could help you better if we had a price range.

If you're in the 1,000-1,500$ range, Id go with a Ludwig keystone series, pearl MCX's, or maybe even some of the newer renown maples that Grestch is putting out. I've heard good Yamaha kits as well, I just have an innate disdain for them. They've done nothing to wrong me, I just don't like companies that are good at everything :) You might also check eBay and see if you can find any vintage kits from the late 60s to late 70s. A friend of mine recently acquired a nice blue and olive badge Ludwig from the late 70s and I'm tempted to steal it from him. It's probably the best drum kit I've heard in my 11 years of drumming; I think it was around $1400 or something like that.

If you can get $2k and up, a lot more options open up, such as DW, nicer Ludwigs, Pearls, and Yamahas.

As for cymbals, my personal taste is a 17" k dark custom crash, 21" armand ride, or a 21" sweet ride, and a 20" A custom crash. If the 20" is too big, maybe go with an 18" or 19". You could also go with the K customs in this size too, I just like to have a sparkly cymbal around. As for hats, I'm starting to like the sound of 15" hats, or even the sound of two 16" crashes together. I put a 16" A custom fast crash on bottom with a 16" 2002 paiste on top and it sounded great.

If it wasn't such a small venue, I'd suggest checking out Meinl cymbals but to be honest, they are just explosively loud. Their extra dry hats that Benny Greb uses are extremely nice but expensive. I dont know much about sabian so I'm gonna bite my tongue on this.

To be quite honest, a lot of it comes down to how you tune the kit, and what heads your using. I'm not talking about Remo vs. Evans vs. Aquarian.. I mean single-ply, 2-ply, coated, clear, pins, and which combination in relation to top and bottom you use. I am pretty high on the Aquarian Studio X heads right now though... Maybe I'll feel different after I hear them mic'd, who knows?

Whatever you buy, make sure everything is balanced. Don't go buy a custom DW with sabian b8 cymbals or ZBT's.. Im pretty sure you know this.

Hope this helps, and I'll pray God blesses your worship ministry :D

+1..I agree with just about everything here,especially the use of the plexi shield.You need to become good at tuning,head selection,and if necessary muffeling to get a good sound in relatively small venue..When I played in church.most of the older congregation found it to loud,so I changed my tuning,and used just a little muffeling,and it made all the difference.You can't play every song with brushes,so touch and feel become even more important

I would also add Tama Starclassic birch/bubinga as well as Tama Silverstars to the drum selection.Both are very warm sounding kits.

Don't overlook used either,especially vintage Ludwig,and A Zildjian and Paiste cymbals.Some of them are just the best sounding cymbals you will ever hear.

Steve B

[Davo-London]

I have no experience of the plexi-shield and so it's interesting to hear that they are designed to stop bleed-through rather than reduce the drum volume. Although I would guess the drums would be quieter for the band fold-back/ambient acoustics as well.

Davo