My rant on today's pop music

Ken, Paul Simon is great. I'm not big on Simon and Garfunkel, but his solo work is almost uniformly fantastic, particularly lyrically.

[Deltadrummer]

Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum

heh.....I knew someone would bring up Xanadu.

Granted, that song does contain odd lyrics, although he there is a moral to the story, but it might take listening to the song 100 times to understand it. (be careful what you wish for, you just might get it end up miserable) But yeah, his lyrics got much better into the 80's. He went to back to hit and miss in the 90's.

I wasn't specifically references the song, but the documentary where 'Glee' talks about how UFO called him Glee and made fun of the band, specifically writing that lyric on a banner. I loved those early albums and I bought them all when they first came out. But it was a very different time. I remember going to see Rush, or Zappa who I saw from the second row one night, and people listened to the music. They were relatively quiet. And then NWOBHM came along and you had these unruly mobs at all the concerts, jumping on seats, and shouting.

A friend sent me a clip she took of Rush playing YYZ, and the people were just screaming. It made me wonder of they were really listening or just excited that they were doing this song, that for all intense and purposes they could be listening to at home on their ipod. That's why I love jazz; it's always different.

[DrumEatDrum]

Originally Posted by Deltadrummer

I wasn't specifically references the song, but the documentary where 'Glee' talks about how UFO called him Glee and made fun of the band, specifically writing that lyric on a banner.

I wouldn't know anything about Glee. They made a Rush reference?

A friend sent me a clip she took of Rush playing YYZ, and the people were just screaming. It made me wonder of they were really listening or just excited that they were doing this song,

A few years ago now, Rush did their first ever South American tour. When they played Rio, Brazil, they sold out a massive stadium, which was filmed for a DVD release.

When the band started YYZ, much the bands surprise, the entire audience started singing the melody along to the song. After the DVD came out, American fans started to do the same thing. Which is a tad ironic, and funny, given the song is entirely instrumental, to have an audience "sing along". But Rush have always had a sense of humor about them.

Originally Posted by Deltadrummer

. That's why I love jazz; it's always different.

True. Which is why I can only really appreciate it live. Sitting at home and putting on a jazz record, and I'm pretty bored after a while. Want to to go see a jazz band in person? Cool, let's go.

[Deltadrummer]

Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum

I wouldn't know anything about Glee. They made a Rush reference?

Ian, I assumed you had a better working knowledge of the Beyond the Lighted Stage doc. Glee was how UFO referred to Geddy Lee, and UFO was the band tat made fun of their lyrics.

Here's a great doc with Dave Matthews, Eryka Badu, Questlove and a host of other artists that basically covers everything we've discussed. It's called Before the Music Dies.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/62945/befo...?from=fb_share

[Pollyanna]

Agree about Peter Gabriel and Ian Anderson. Brilliant lyricists. Thick as a Brick was unbelievable.

The other day I heard The Logical Song on the radio. Fantastic song - intelligent, witty, heartfelt (it's about the singer's feelings about his time in boarding school), superb writing and arranging, plus class musicianship .

If ever there was a bridge between pop and prog, Supertramp were it, along with 10CC. We almost never talk about them here and I suspect some will find the vocals too poppy, but I always loved their music and lyrics (a girl thing, maybe?) - especially Supertramp, although 10CC's Une Nuit in Paris was a triumph IMO

[Deltadrummer]

Originally Posted by Pollyanna

The other day I heard The Logical Song on the radio. Fantastic song - intelligent, witty, heartfelt (it's about the singer's feelings about his time in boarding school), superb writing and arranging, plus class musicianship .

If ever there was a bridge between pop and prog, Supertramp were it, along with 10CC. We almost never talk about them here and I suspect some will find the vocals too poppy, but I always loved their music and lyrics (a girl thing, maybe?) - especially Supertramp, although 10CC's Une Nuit in Paris was a triumph IMO

Great song. I think Freddie Mercury listened to more than a little 10CC. Certainly there are bands like 10CC that could have been more popular had they been given more airplay in the US, well more than two songs. That may also be a problem with having a good idea, and someone just comes a long and does it better, or more commercially.

On the other hand I liked Supertramp as well; but they were so over exposed by AOR. There were three albums that were a fixture in hi-fidelity audio shops. Dark Side of the Moon, Aja and Crime of the Century. They exemplified the best in audio recording technology of the time. I was never a big fan of Roger Hodgson's voice per se. I did love Geddy's though. There's no accounting for taste.

[DrumEatDrum]

Originally Posted by Deltadrummer

Ian, I assumed you had a better working knowledge of the Beyond the Lighted Stage doc. Glee was how UFO referred to Geddy Lee, and UFO was the band tat made fun of their lyrics. ]

Doh! whoosh....over my head.

Originally Posted by Pollyanna

The other day I heard The Logical Song on the radio. Fantastic song - intelligent, witty, heartfelt (it's about the singer's feelings about his time in boarding school), superb writing and arranging, plus class musicianship .

I have never been into Supertramp. I never got them, or understood why the radio played them so dang often.

But funny enough, a few weeks ago I got in my car, turned on the radio, and that song was on. And for the first time after 10,001 times of hearing that song, I actually paid attention the entire set of lyrics, and went "wow". I'm surprised I never "got it" before, given my own issues with my schooling days. Previously I always wondered why the hell would anyone sing about being logical (an ode to Spock? What logic have to do with music?) It was a big ohh moment.

I still can't say I'm a fan of the band though. I really could without ever hearing the "Girlfriend" song on the radio again. Although I have always liked that one song about the school yard with the harmonica, but mostly because when I was younger I thought it was a Zeppelin tune. LOL.

[Pollyanna]

Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum

I have never been into Supertramp. I never got them, or understood why the radio played them so dang often.

But funny enough, a few weeks ago I got in my car, turned on the radio, and that song was on. And for the first time after 10,001 times of hearing that song, I actually paid attention the entire set of lyrics, and went "wow". I'm surprised I never "got it" before, given my own issues with my schooling days. Previously I always wondered why the hell would anyone sing about being logical (an ode to Spock? What logic have to do with music?) It was a big ohh moment.

I still can't say I'm a fan of the band though. I really could without ever hearing the "Girlfriend" song on the radio again. Although I have always liked that one song about the school yard with the harmonica, but mostly because when I was younger I thought it was a Zeppelin tune. LOL.

That's funny, because that time I heard it in the car the other day it was the most I'd zeroed in on the song too.

Crime of the Century deserved its billing as per Ken's post. Funny thing, isn't it? All three of those albums had black covers. I know that at one stage I started questioning whether the fact that an album cover was black somehow coloured (ahem) my perceptions of the music. All the black albums I had sounded so clean and incredible. I think those three albums must have done it :)

Some great songs on Crime - not just School, but also Rudi , Hide in Your Shell and the title track (which was epic). I think the fact that they seemed influenced by older, unhip things like Gershwyn and honky tonk turned people off.

Originally Posted by Deltadrummer

Great song. I think Freddie Mercury listened to more than a little 10CC. Certainly there are bands like 10CC that could have been more popular had they been given more airplay in the US, well more than two songs. That may also be a problem with having a good idea, and someone just comes a long and does it better, or more commercially.

On the other hand I liked Supertramp as well; but they were so over exposed by AOR. There were three albums that were a fixture in hi-fidelity audio shops. Dark Side of the Moon, Aja and Crime of the Century. They exemplified the best in audio recording technology of the time. I was never a big fan of Roger Hodgson's voice per se. I did love Geddy's though. There's no accounting for taste.

Yep, Queen improved on the 10CC approach, but it's no disgrace to be outdone by a band like that. I recently saw 10CC on the Tube, a live version of Art for Art's Sake. They're a seriously talented band.

I always got mixed up as to who was who in Supertramp. I'm guessing the whiny voice is the issue. What a bitch it must have been for him to sing his first note and finding out that the natural vocal expression of his soul was a wimpy whine ... I know how that feels because my natural way of singing sounds like whining too lol

See above for comments on the Black Album Syndrome :)

[inneedofgrace]

Originally Posted by mediocrefunkybeat

I'm going to go right out and say it.

There are very few Rock bands with good lyrics. In fact, there are very few bands out there with good lyrics. Maybe I'm going to come out as controversial here, but I honestly think that a lot of what puts me off of older Rock bands like Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple isn't just the pomp, but it's the terrible, terrible lyrics they shoehorn in. There are massive exceptions - Bowie wrote some great lines, as did Pink Floyd sometimes (some albums are better than others) and the lyrics aren't always a deal-breaker for me; but sometimes I actually get embarrassed listening to them. It's like listening to John Wetton singing - it's just not very good and you can't redress it any other way.

I will openly admit, however, that I don't really listen to the vocals in a lot of songs. If there's a group of people listening to a song, I will be the last to tell you what they actually said and I'm much more likely to reply with a comment about the recording technique, dodgy editing or bad key change. Wether that's the result of listening to a lot of really bad lyrics and just giving up or natural propensity, I'm not sure. But when I'm enjoying something on a musical level and cringing at the vocals, I'm not enjoying it.

Furthermore, I'm absolutely with Polly. Prog had the worst lyrics of all - and still does. Do I want to hear any Dream Theater lyrics? No. Absolutely not. Do I want to hear any Dream Theater? Well, I think you can answer that one yourselves. Tool are the exception that proves the rule, but even they come out with some cabbages from time to time.

A woman I work with has been a die-hard fan of The Who for 30 years and has seen them countless times in concert. But whenever I ask her what a specific Who song means, she always tells me she has no idea and that all the words are nonsense.

Originally Posted by inneedofgrace

A woman I work with has been a die-hard fan of The Who for 30 years and has seen them countless times in concert. But whenever I ask her what a specific Who song means, she always tells me she has no idea and that all the words are nonsense.

The Who have better lyrics than most, although I think Daltrey often goes for the 'not quite sure, so I'll make it obscure' approach. The Rock Operas are fairly pretentious - but they were going for a theme there, so I'll cut them some slack. The only 'concept' album I really like the lyrics from is probably 'The Wall' - even though that is filled with some terrible examples.

I often prefer it when they're nonsensical, in a Barrettesque way. At least then you're not trying to read too much and it's ok for them to be ridiculous. Otherwise you run close to being into self-parody without intent!

[Pollyanna]

Originally Posted by inneedofgrace

A woman I work with has been a die-hard fan of The Who for 30 years and has seen them countless times in concert. But whenever I ask her what a specific Who song means, she always tells me she has no idea and that all the words are nonsense.

I know what the Tommy songs are about! The rest is a mystery to me and I love their music all the same. Most of the time I'm listening to Moonie anyway :)

[inneedofgrace]

Originally Posted by Pollyanna

I know what the Tommy songs are about!

Weirdest. Movie. Ever.

Ann Margaret covered in baked beans. Enough said.

[Deltadrummer]

I would have to say that The Who, more than any other band in rock history, best exemplifies what rock n roll is about, the unbridled anger, the energy and the rebellion. I would say even more so than The Beatles, Townsend wrote songs that resonated with that period in a straight -forward coherent way: My Generation, I'm Mobile, Won't Get Fooled Again or I'm Free. Yeah I wonder what that last one, I'm Free, is all about. I can't imagine how a woman would listen to this music and not know what Squeeze Box, I Can See for Miles or The Real Me are about. Quadrophenia is probably the greatest rock movie that there even was. Not that there is a lot of competition, well. Jesus Christ Superstar. The Who wasn't about the lyrics, but a whole lot more. But Townsend was a great lyricist.

[DrumEatDrum]

Originally Posted by Deltadrummer

I would have to say that The Who, more than any other band in rock history, best exemplifies what rock n roll is about, the unbridled anger, the energy and the rebellion. I would say even more so than The Beatles, Townsend wrote songs that resonated with that period in a straight -forward coherent way: My Generation, I'm Mobile, Won't Get Fooled Again or I'm Free. Yeah I wonder what that last one, I'm Free, is all about. I can't imagine how a woman would listen to this music and not know what Squeeze Box, I Can See for Miles or The Real Me are about. Quadrophenia is probably the greatest rock movie that there even was. Not that there is a lot of competition, well. Jesus Christ Superstar. The Who wasn't about the lyrics, but a whole lot more. But Townsend was a great lyricist.

^ This.

I once wrote a long thing about The Who is responsible for inspiring multiple genres of music. I'll have to go see where I put that.

Sure, some of his lyrics were silly, some were deliberately meant to be humorous, but many other lyrics were rather profound with a deeper meaning behind them.

[DrumEatDrum]

Originally Posted by inneedofgrace

Weirdest. Movie. Ever.

Ann Margaret covered in baked beans. Enough said.

Awesome movie.

The baked beans was a bit of a gag referencing The Who's second album "The Who Sells Out".

[Deltadrummer]

Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum

^ This.

I once wrote a long thing about The Who is responsible for inspiring multiple genres of music. I'll have to go see where I put that.

Sure, some of his lyrics were silly, some were deliberately meant to be humorous, but many other lyrics were rather profound with a deeper meaning behind them.

I wrote something about there being the band that created punk rock.

A cryptic Who lyric

The Dirty Jobs

I am a man who looks after the pigs
Usually I get along OK.
I am man who reveals all he digs,
Should be more careful what I say.

I'm getting put down,
I'm getting pushed round,
I'm being beaten every day.
My life's fading,
But things are changing,
I'm not gonna sit and weep again.

I am man who drives a local bus
I take miners to work, but the pits all closed today.
It's easy to see that you are one of us.
Ain't it funny how we all seem to look the same?

We're getting put down etc.

My karma tells me
You've been screwed again.
If you let them do it to you
You've got yourself to blame.
It's you who feels the pain
It's you that feels ashamed.

I am a young man
I ain't done very much,
You men should remember how you used to fight.
Just like a child, I've been seeing only dreams,
I'm all mixed up but I know what's right.

I'm getting put down etc.

[Pollyanna]

Originally Posted by Deltadrummer

I would have to say that The Who, more than any other band in rock history, best exemplifies what rock n roll is about, the unbridled anger, the energy and the rebellion. I would say even more so than The Beatles, Townsend wrote songs that resonated with that period in a straight -forward coherent way: My Generation, I'm Mobile, Won't Get Fooled Again or I'm Free. Yeah I wonder what that last one, I'm Free, is all about. I can't imagine how a woman would listen to this music and not know what Squeeze Box, I Can See for Miles or The Real Me are about. Quadrophenia is probably the greatest rock movie that there even was. Not that there is a lot of competition, well. Jesus Christ Superstar. The Who wasn't about the lyrics, but a whole lot more. But Townsend was a great lyricist.

Totally agree ... and yes, I picked up on the creepiness of I Can See for Miles (I don't know the other songs you mentioned). However ... Keith's playing in the verses is some of my favourite drumming by anyone ... ever ... so my focus is always elsewhere with that one.

Apart from Tommy - which I loved - I never really picked up on The Who until YouTube. I did have that Pete Townsend solo album with Face the Face, which is a great example of a Top 40 song that kicks the sorry backsides of today's popular music (in this old fart's opinion).

I agree - they are the perfect RnR band. They had it all.

BTW, Mum took me to see the stage production of JC Superstar when I was very young and I always liked it. Jon English as Judas and Reg Livermore as Herod in the Oz production were outstanding.

[DrumEatDrum]

The Dirty Jobs...a song about the common working man making it in society. It's a key part of the story, because Jimmy (as are most disenfranchised youth) are trying to avoid being a common working man. It's a key component of why Jimmy is so shocked when he finds out his hero is nothing but a common bell boy on side 2.

Anyhow:

Why The Who simply own the history of rock n roll and nearly all it's sub-genres:

Punk: Raw & sloppy, feed-back filled music with lyrics that have a "f- you to the establishment” attitude, along with the wild thrift store outfits (as opposed to the suits and ties of the Beatles), with concerts that ended with the band destroying all their instruments. Only this was in was the Who in 1964, well before the 1979 punk scene.
Even though Punk rock was supposed to be a middle finger to the established jam bands of the 70s and their 10 minute guitar solos, The Who being one of them, punk bands, including the Sex Pistols, actually covered Who songs.

New Wave: Prior to 80's New Wave and it's use of driving synths, the synthesizer was largely seen as a novelty instrument that people like Keith Emerson would use to play crazy sounding solos on. Except the Who started using sequencers & synth patterns in 1971, and then again very heavily in 1978, just before synth driven music exploded in the early 80s.

Metal: Metal was born from Deep Purple and Black Sabbath in 1968, as well as a few other bands, like Blue Cheer & Zeppelin (among others). But Pete Townshend’s heavy use of the power chord and his riffs were undeniable components of the metal bands that were to come. Not to mention Keith Moon’s stomping double bass drums.

Concept albums and Epic rock: The Who were the first rock band to take several 2 min. pop songs and string them into something that told a whole story. They then, in 1968, they took this idea further and made an entire double album based around one story, the very first rock opera, which set up the basis for every other concept album ever made.

Prog: Although the Beatles were the 1st band to use odd time signatures, while the Who never did, Keith Moon was the main influence for Neil Peart of Rush, which then inspired well, you know the rest. And in their concept album "Tommy", Pete mixed classical concepts like overtures, which became a huge influence on the 70’s prog bands who mixed classical music concepts with rock.

Alternative: Back in the 60’s, the main streamers listened to the Beatles, while the rockers listened to the Stones. All the alternative kids, knows as “Mods” who wore a mix of dark glam and items picked up from military thrift stores, listened to the Who. This would all be documented in the Who’s double album “Quadraphenia” which was later made into a full-length feature film. And if you take all the alternative bands of the 90’s get them to list their influences, work your way backwards, and it starts with the Who. Further proven by the VH-1 Rock honors, when the band was honored mostly by "alternative" bands.

Goth and Death Rock started from punk mixed with the dark sounds of the Doors, but John Entwhistle of the Who wrote several creepy, dark, and/or morbid songs, none of which were ever hits, but certainly pre-dated up what would come later. Borris the Spider, Heaven and Hell, the creepy album cover of his solo albums "Smash Your Head Against the Wall" and the title of his 3rd solo album "Rigor Mortis Sets In."

There is no denying th Beatles are the most influential band in terms of number of artists they inspired, but they stopped making records at the end of the 60's. The Stones and Zep, great bands and all, but they never really stepped outside of their heavy blues based roots. The Who pushed boundaries, and inspired a wider variety of movements

[Pollyanna]

Excellent homage, DED :)

I'll just add that other metal & hard rock pioneers and inspirations were Hendrix and Iron Butterfly. Tracks like Voodoo Chile and In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida seemed to be pretty influential.

[Deltadrummer]

Excellent look at this influential band. The mods actually liked Beat music and black music and in that way were the forerunners of the alt rockers. The Rockers liked 50s rock n roll and rockabilly. Lennon was a teddy boy but The Beatles gave up their rocker look for money.

It's all here as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9eLeZS9OeY

[Pollyanna]

Originally Posted by Deltadrummer

It's all here as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9eLeZS9OeY

What is? Booze and amphetamines? :)

... and then they start growing up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShCSuFSauzU

[Deltadrummer]

Originally Posted by Pollyanna

What is? Booze and amphetamines? :)

... and then they start growing up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShCSuFSauzU

I wasn't a big Clash fan; but I did get to see them live, and I did get to see Joe Strummer perform for free, accidentally, one afternoon right before he passes at Tower Records on Broadway in NYC. I'm glad I did because they were a great band. A lot of people I respected loved them.

Rael from The Lamb, is Jimmy, is Johnny Rotten. it's the 300,00 guys they're singing to in the video. White Riot is almost an answer to Dirty Jobs. I love the thick and brick rhyme. Where did he get that? Waters critique of the English educational system goes far back. Another great lyric is London Calling, 100% Dylan, "And I live by the river".

Black people gotta lot a problems
But they don't mind throwing a brick
White people go to school
Where they teach you how to be thick

An' everybody's doing
Just what they're told to
An' nobody wants
To go to jail!

White riot - I wanna riot
White riot - a riot of my own
White riot - I wanna riot
White riot - a riot of my own

All the power's in the hands
Of people rich enough to buy it
While we walk the street
Too chicken to even try it

Are you taking over
or are you taking orders?
Are you going backwards
Or are you going forwards?

[inneedofgrace]

I was looking up some information, and came upon this interesting data on the songs that have stayed at no. 1 for the longest period of time. Almost every song on this list is what I would consider a "modern era" pop song (1995 or newer). The question is, what does this mean in terms of the quality of pop music today?

Most weeks at number one

16 weeks
Mariah Carey and Boyz II Men — "One Sweet Day" (1995)

14 weeks
Whitney Houston — "I Will Always Love You" (1992)
Boyz II Men — "I'll Make Love to You" (1994)
Los del Río — "Macarena" (Bayside Boys mix) (1996)
Elton John — "Candle in the Wind 1997" / "Something About the Way You Look Tonight" (1997)
Mariah Carey — "We Belong Together" (2005)
The Black Eyed Peas — "I Gotta Feeling" (2009)

13 weeks
Boyz II Men — "End of the Road" (1992)
Brandy and Monica — "The Boy Is Mine" (1998)

12 weeks
Santana featuring Rob Thomas — "Smooth" (1999)
Eminem — "Lose Yourself" (2002-2003)
Usher featuring Lil Jon and Ludacris — "Yeah!" (2004)
The Black Eyed Peas — "Boom Boom Pow" (2009)

[Pollyanna]

Originally Posted by inneedofgrace

I was looking up some information, and came upon this interesting data on the songs that have stayed at no. 1 for the longest period of time. Almost every song on this list is what I would consider a "modern era" pop song (1995 or newer). The question is, what does this mean in terms of the quality of pop music today?

I don't think it says anything about quality, but it does suggest a tightening of radio and video clip playlists.

A few tracks I like a lot there, though - Candle in the Wind, Loose Yourself and Smooth.

[Boom Boom Dah]

Pop music changes all the time. At coming up 23 I like to think I have quite a wide range on music taste, on my ipod I have everything from 36 Crazyfist to Tears For Fears. However one thing that really scared me, that not to long ago I went to visit my parents and my 6 year old sister was shaking along to a recent pop video. Which I do not approve of. Some of the lyrics are made by some very closed minded people, talking about basically just getting rich and sleeping with lots of girls. These people are NOT musicians, and are not the sort of role models we want our younger generation to try to aspire to. When I was 6 I loved Michael Jackson, I listened to a lot of my mum's records suc as the Bee Gees, Beach Boys, The Beatles ect. this great music is what made me want to be a musician, as I was always hitting pots and pans as a toddler my mum put me into drum lessons.
I love music, it is the one language that everyone understands. I have gotten my sisters into Blink 182 now which makes me very happy, as they are my favorite band as Dude Ranch album was the first I ever bought.


Anyways thats my Rant

[Pollyanna]

Originally Posted by Boom Boom Dah

These people are NOT musicians, and are not the sort of role models we want our younger generation to try to aspire to. When I was 6 I loved Michael Jackson ...

Who, despite his talent, is perhaps not such a great role model either:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTJEBex2jvM

:)

[Deltadrummer]

Originally Posted by Pollyanna

Who, despite his talent, is perhaps not such a great role model either:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTJEBex2jvM

:)

Somebody had to teach grammar school kids how to masterbate, and Michael Jackson was up for the task. :P

I was talking with a guy yesterday who is a musician, quite well educated. He went to conservatory. He's in his 20's and said his favorite decade in pop music is the 1990s, Tupac, Biggie, Lauryn Hill. For him, this music had something to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3_dOWYHS7I


He thinks its a white/black thing, because he said that when you ask black people what they are listening to the will say Black Eyed Peas, or Usher, etc. new artists. But when you ask white people, they will tell you some old school band from back in the day, even the kids. "It would seem," he said , "that rock music stopped developing in the late 80s, where as R and B has continued to grow and change with the times."

[DrumEatDrum]

Originally Posted by Deltadrummer

He thinks its a white/black thing, because he said that when you ask black people what they are listening to the will say Black Eyed Peas, or Usher, etc. new artists. But when you ask white people, they will tell you some old school band from back in the day, even the kids. "It would seem," he said , "that rock music stopped developing in the late 80s, where as R and B has continued to grow and change with the times."

Funny thing, a few years ago on a different forum someone posted a rant about today's hip-hop isn't as good as yesterday's hip hop and why don't radio stations cater to people who grew up with the genre but can't stand the new stuff.

Years ago, I spent a summer playing 3 times a week with some much older guys playing old R&B at a bar. I was way out of place being the 24 year old long haired white kid, and I couldn't even say I knew most of the tunes. But after a few months I had a large stack of cash.

[Boom Boom Dah]

Originally Posted by Pollyanna

Who, despite his talent, is perhaps not such a great role model either:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTJEBex2jvM

:)

Well played love.


But I do have to say, I think it was just a load of bs about MJ, touching those kids, I don't want to make this a "is he guilty?" thread, but if what is my opinion is true, then the guy had his trust betrayed by some degenerate family, his fans gone, his money gone and in a huge amount of debt, plus everyone taking the piss out of him.


Anyway back to conversation. I think the rock genre is as good as it was going to be, at the moment the best band to come out in the past couple of years has been Mumford and Sons, who came from our mighty ol' england. Come to think of it we have actually come out with every type of great rock group there is...

The Beatles
The Who
The Kinks
The Rolling Stones
Queen
Phil Collins
Led Zepplin
Black Sabbath
Iron Maiden
Sex Pistols
David Bowie
Joy Division
The Smiths
The Clash
The Police
Duran Duran
Fleetwood Mac
Radiohead
Muse
The Libertines
The Stone Roses
The Small Faces
U2
Pink Floyed
Deep Purple
Def Leppard

Seriously America step up your game haha :)

[Pollyanna]

Originally Posted by Boom Boom Dah

Well played sir.

Ahem - try madam! :-P

Originally Posted by Boom Boom Dah

But I do have to say, I think it was just a load of bs about MJ, touching those kids, I don't want to make this a "is he guilty?" thread, but if what is my opinion is true, then the guy had his trust betrayed by some degenerate family, his fans gone, his money gone and in a huge amount of debt, plus everyone taking the piss out of him.

Irregardless of the accusations, I still say that most parents don't want their kids grabbing their crotch in public, having mountains of plastic surgery, danging their children over balconies for photographers, living in oxygen tents, having little boys as bedmates (platonic or whatever) ... he lived in an alternate universe.

Looking at that list I see great quite a few British performers who were deeply influenced by US artists like Buddy Holly, Chuck Berry, Elvis, Muddy Waters, Bob Dylan, The Byrds, Little Richard, Elmore James, Howling Wolf, Sun Ra's Arkestra (Pink Floyd) ... not to mention a host of jazz and Motown artists.

Not wanting to be contrary ... some of my favourite bands are in that list of yours :)

[Boom Boom Dah]

Originally Posted by Pollyanna

Ahem - try madam! :-P

Edited, I do apologise

Originally Posted by Pollyanna

Irregardless of the accusations, I still say that most parents don't want their kids grabbing their crotch in public, having mountains of plastic surgery, danging their children over balconies for photographers, living in oxygen tents, having little boys as bedmates (platonic or whatever) ... he lived in an alternate universe.

Looking at that list I see great quite a few British performers who were deeply influenced by US artists like Buddy Holly, Chuck Berry, Elvis, Muddy Waters, Bob Dylan, The Byrds, Little Richard, Elmore James, Howling Wolf, Sun Ra's Arkestra (Pink Floyd) ... not to mention a host of jazz and Motown artists.

Not wanting to be contrary ... some of my favourite bands are in that list of yours :)

I see where you are coming from, but as you are most likely to be correct, some of those Bands/Artist that I have listed have influence a lot more musicians, I can't imagine how many Drummers here would say they have been directly influence by John Bonhams plaing, but it would be a hell of a lot. However you could say the same about Neil Peart. It's a tough one but I think we may still have the edge :)

[Deltadrummer]

I mentioned Mumford and Sons earlier in the thread and it went over like a lead balloon then as well.

One of the things I noticed about Brit pop is that when you talk about the major figures, you are most often talking about bands. You have the big 5, Beatles, Stones, Who, Zep, Floyd from the classic period, and add Queen. Even the biggest American band, The Eagles, was never as big as those bands in their hey day. I don't know why that is although it might have something to do with a socialist ethic. When you mention American artists from that period, you are usually talking about individuals, Bob Dylan, Paul Simon, Hendrix, Stevie Wonder, James Brown and Billy Joel. Michael Jackson anyone. You also has Motown and Stax artists;Sam and Dave, Otis Redding, Aretha, Smokey Robinson, Diana Ross and Marvin Gaye. Of course Michael Jackson and Stevie both started on Motown.

But certainly American has produced no lack of bands in the last forty years, from the horn bands, Chicago, Earth Wind and Fire, Tower of Power to the rock bands Aerosmith, Van Halen, Guns and Roses, Metallica. Who could forget all those great soul bands of the 1960s and 1970s, Temptations, O'Jay's, Chi-Lites, Isley Brothers, Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes.

[Pollyanna]

It's cool, Boom, I liked the "well played" bit :) With rock I lean toward Brit music, but I'm also a big fan of some American/international jazz music. Not sure if being an older Aussie with a European background makes a difference.

Ken, which of the old groups do you think have had the biggest influences on modern pop (the stuff we seem to love to hate)? I'm thinking Kraftwerk was one.

I think Kraftwerk are undeniably the single most influential electronic group out there, but only through osmosis. It took the industry ten years to catch up with them, but they didn't develop enough to keep ahead - I think after 'Computer World' they started sounding dated, but the ten years before that are quite something.

Brian Eno would be another obvious candidate, but a lot of his music is less clearly definable and hence the influence harder to define. 'My Life in the Bush of Ghosts' with David Byrne is one album that took the industry another ten years to come to terms with - it's just simply amazing in scope and influence.

[Deltadrummer]

Americans are really big on songwriting, and even many of the biggest bands are really a songwriter or two and a bunch of guys. When it works best like with the Eagles, CSNY, Grateful Dead or The Band you had a band of songwriters drummer included. Of course, many bands list all the members as co-authors of the songs, Deep Purple, U2, or Green Day.

The whole concept of a band is tenuous from that perspective. I think it's funny that people complain about bands touring with one or two original members. There's this band King Crimson, and I think they only have one original member. One of the things I liked about Genesis, Crimson and Yes was that they were truly a band, all the members squeezing in ideas and trying to make them work. Yes always sounded like they were going to explode from the massive amount of talent in the band all squeezed in to the Yes box. Then people get squeezed out.

You can't count one band or artists as the biggest influence on pop music because there are so many subgenres; but certainly U2 and the Edge's guitar in particular are a huge influence on a lot of young bands. I would agree that the minimalist thing is still so big going back to Eno from Cale; it made its way into rock n roll.

The point I have been trying to make. to take the question outside of the role of the listener renders it moot and meaningless. I heard a joke the other day. What do music and a box of chocolate have in common? You have to get rid of the rappers. Would it surprise you that a white guy was telling that joke, and the guy who said that 1990s music had the most well thought out messages of any decade was black? Not a surprise.

I think it gets down to what Bermuda was asking in the beginning of the thread, is the song any good. You have that one aspect of popular music, which is the great song. you also have the other side, which is the great dance tune. I wouldn't sit around listening to Madonna or Lady Gaga, but lay it on the dance floor and that is a different story. I bet that most of the people who criticize today's pop music haven't been out on a dance floor in decades and they probably look like they could use it.

[Boom Boom Dah]

Originally Posted by Deltadrummer

Americans are really big on songwriting, and even many of the biggest bands are really a songwriter or two and a bunch of guys. When it world best like with the Eagles, CSNY, Grateful Dead or The Band you had a band of songwriters drummer included. Of course many bands list all the members as co-authors of the songs, Deep Purple, U2, or Green Day.

The whole concept of a band is tenuous from that perspective. I think it's funny that people complain about bands touring with one or two original members. There's this band King Crimson, and I think they only have one original member. One of the things I liked about Genesis, Crimson and Yes was that they were truly a band, all the members squeezing in ideas and trying to make them work. Yes always sounded like they were going to explode from the massive amount of talent in the band all squeezed in to the Yes box. Then people get squeezed out.

You can't count one band or artists as the biggest influence on pop music because there are so many subgenres; but certainly U2 and the Edge's guitar in particular are a huge influence on a lot of young bands. I would agree that the minimalist thing is still so big going back to Eno from Cale; it made its way into rock n roll.

The point I have been trying to make. to take the question outside of the role of the listener renders it moot and meaningless. I heard a joke the other day. What do music and a box of chocolate have in common? You have to get rid of the rappers. Would it surprise you that a white guy was telling that joke, and the guy who said that 1990s music had the most well thought out messages of any decade was black? Not a surprise.

I think it gets down to what Bermuda was asking in the beginning of the thread, is the song any good. You have that one aspect of popular music, which is the great song. you also have the other side, which is the great dance tune. I wouldn't sit around listening to Madonna or Lady Gaga, but lay it on the dance floor and that is a different story. I bet that most of the people who criticize today's pop music haven't been out on a dance floor in decades and they probably look like they could use it.

Great post.

It's true, after a few too many lagers I will dance to anything, but I also "take a leak" on a wall when I am a bit drunk so bearing that in mind that we do a lot of silly stuff when we are drunk.

[inneedofgrace]

I don't think there is any R&B in most pop music today. Long gone is the Motown sound that dominated pop music such as Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder, Temptations, Supremes, etc

[Deltadrummer]

R Kelly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6rqp7kUX2Y

sounds like Stevie, no?

Usher

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6urbZyHgO4

You can hear the auto-tune on the high notes. I'd like them better if it had some real instruments; but it could have been done by The Chi-Lites or Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes. Whether it would be better if done by those bands, I will not comment.

[Pollyanna]

INOG, do a search for Ce Lo Green in YouTube ...

Originally Posted by mediocrefunkybeat

I think Kraftwerk are undeniably the single most influential electronic group out there, but only through osmosis. It took the industry ten years to catch up with them, but they didn't develop enough to keep ahead - I think after 'Computer World' they started sounding dated, but the ten years before that are quite something.

Funny, so much music in the mainstream of the UK and US yet a few quirky Germans did something with roots that spread through a huge percentage of today's mainstream.

On the other hand, Grandmaster Flash's influence is huge too.

[inneedofgrace]

I wonder if anyone got upset when Bill Wither's Lean on Me was remade by Mud (1976), Al Jarreau (1985), DC Talk (1992), Michael Bolton (1993), Bonnie Tyler (1999), Anne Murray (1999), and The Temptations?

,