DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > Off Topic Lounge

Off Topic Lounge All Discussions Not Related To Drumming

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #241  
Old 04-13-2011, 04:25 PM
inneedofgrace's Avatar
inneedofgrace inneedofgrace is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: New Jersey - Exit 5
Posts: 1,560
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
What Fleetwood Mac and Journey were able to do was bring in great songwriters. That seems to be generally what they do with bands now, have them sit down with a couple of good songwriters and try to hash out a hit. I like Journey; but many used Journey as a prime example of the failure of 1970s music due to the corporatizing of music. They probably would have said the same of later Fleetwood Mac, esp as compared to the really blues albums, made for guys instead of chicks. There are a lot of deep seated issues that underscore the discussion.
You can say Styx was an example of this. They started in the early 70's as a straight on rock n roll band, but as they began to garner more pop success in the late 70s/early 80s, DeYoung tried to turn the band into musical theater as opposed to rock. This ultimately split the band apart, with Tommy Shaw still rocking it out today, and DeYoung putting on musicals.

Ironically a couple years ago I saw both Styx and Dennis DeYoung in two different shows in the same week. Both were excellent. Styx was the opening act for Def Leppard, but I thought they out performed them by a mile. Those guys can still get it done.
__________________
"Through many dangers, toils and snares..." - Amazing Grace, third verse
Reply With Quote
  #242  
Old 04-13-2011, 04:40 PM
Deltadrummer's Avatar
Deltadrummer Deltadrummer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 2,685
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
I wonder, with the aging populace, if there will be a strong demand for music that entertains retirees once they have the free time again?
It's a good question. Rock n roll came out of the growing teenage culture of the 1950s when for the first time more and more young people were going to high school. You had this new culture of teenie boppers. Progressive rock came out of the growing college attendance of the late 1960s and 1970s. So if the populace was getting more educated, why is it that the best thing college rock could muster up in the 1980s was REM, The Cure and later Grunge? If the Indie movement was/is college based, why is it musically not very sophisticated? I'm thinking of Tull's Thick as a Brick, ELP's Karnevil 9, Genesis Supper's Ready, Zappa's Joe's Garage, the very sophisticated level of satire in the lyrics, and the allusion, however poor, to classical composition. Some of it may have to do with that video I posted some four pages back. The speaker outlines that creativity is not based on decision making, but the ability to come up with good solutions to problems necessitates that one think up many possible possibilities for action. Kids have that at 5, and it is educated out of them by 12.
__________________
Ken Marino Drum Teacher "It's not worth keeping score. You win some. You lose some, you let it go"
Reply With Quote
  #243  
Old 04-13-2011, 05:48 PM
Zeus Mutation Zeus Mutation is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 103
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

IMO the perception that we are looking at is wrong.

Who buys CD's today... When was the last time "you" bought something brand new, as in not an older "classic" CD?

Once file sharing and Napter was in full swing you'd be hard pressed to find people at records stores like before. The proof is in the big chain stores are gone... Look at Blockbuster, streaming technology has eliminated them as well.

Now bands will release stuff on vinyl just to help get you into the specialty store. April 16th, record appreciation day!

In my day getting an album was an all day adventure... the countless hours I spent looking at my Iron Maiden albums and playing them to death was, well, what you did...

Artist want money, its still a job, if you want people to know about it you have to market it... watch TV, think about how many people have no idea of all the subliminal messaging going on. If you ask, what the comercial was saying most see only the surface value. Advertising/Marketing people know this so they use it.

I remember MTV when it started... I used to hate this song called Big Log by a guy who I thought was Lame at the time, it played in heavy rotation and I hated it... his name is Robert Plant! Once I discoverd Zepp I couldnt belive it was the same dude... anyway, after awhile music was visual and no longer... just music... you didn't take albums to friends houses and wonder who the band was... now every band has a facebook page, mine included and we havent even played anywhere yet, lol.

Point being its not the "age" or demigraphic but the "how" that has changed music. The Styx refference is perfect. They rocked, got famous, DeYoung thought he was important and had new creative ideas to explore. Gotta love that he screwd up a good thing for his creative process and not just to remain popular. I digressed.

The kids today have more than kids before in terms of getting access to movies, music, and games. Business is Business and if your in it you know that the only logic is making money.. how to make more and more. The music business feeds us crap and we are often times to busy to notice or care, we buy the songs that we hear on TV, in our fav movie, associated with games, etc... we've become cattle.

With that doom and gloom I say... time is forever repeating itself... I discoverd a ton of music from long ago and so will new generations of music lovers. Its not the music, its the Packaging, but many people as you all know rebel against the mainstream and they often bring back stuff from yesteryear... I liked 60's hard rock in the 80's... day glow was new to me but old to my mom... you all know what I'm saying :)

Last edited by Zeus Mutation; 04-14-2011 at 12:05 AM. Reason: wrong song name
Reply With Quote
  #244  
Old 04-15-2011, 04:30 PM
Deltadrummer's Avatar
Deltadrummer Deltadrummer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 2,685
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Here's an interesting doc on progressive rock:

http://www.vimeo.com/21318405
__________________
Ken Marino Drum Teacher "It's not worth keeping score. You win some. You lose some, you let it go"
Reply With Quote
  #245  
Old 04-15-2011, 05:06 PM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 10,000
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Ken, I can't finish it right now but the doco is really good. I like the comment made about how people who enjoy intricacy and depth in their music go for prog. I'd argue that the depth tends to be musical rather than lyrical :) Will finish later this weekend - thanks!
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
Reply With Quote
  #246  
Old 04-15-2011, 06:46 PM
Zeus Mutation Zeus Mutation is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 103
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Delta - Where to start! First I shoud say your Documentary is E'ffn Awesome!!!

The more I watched the less I liked Prog Rock, now I'm going to try and explain. Unfortunately I don't have the vocabulary to express as much detail as I'd like. In addition I don't know that English has the words yet in order to clarify some of this.

The good & bad within us is the contridiction that makes the world so great. As a whole in general the human race thinks its wayyy more important than we really are... the old saying 'I think therfore I am'... is a perfect example of our stupidity. What do learn with age... that we truly know nothing.

What is Music? Where did it come from... well my college music appreciation professor thought she had the answer, maybe she did? To over simplify, music came from communication. We used banging on things to communicate when words were not the norm. I'll stop there because it to deep and thousands of years old now.

Music, I think, speaks to us all. We can say that its truly a barrer breaker, regardless of language a good piece of music effects us and unites us. When I think of the classical pierod I think of what life was like for the avergae person, we didnt have TV or all the mindless, time wasting endevors we have in todays world. Music was the novel for the illiterate... and still is to a degree.

The best of life is in simplicity... when you can take a complicated math equation and break it down to E=MC2, as an example, you open the door for everyone. To give mankind the same "feelings" from 3 chords as you can with 12 is really an art in itself.

I thought I really loved Prog Rock but one instrument that I've disliked for 30 years... the keyboard. That sound is just like a dirty ass to me. The only person I've really liked who played a keyboard was Stevie Wonder. In fact the "popular music" of the 80's with that synth keyboard was a major turnoff.

I love Primus, probably the best band in the world for me... that only some people like, What? I have always felt so blessed in the exposure I've had with music. My Great Grandfather was a composer in NYC. My grandfather played 7 instruments and loved the entire big band erra, he wrote tons of songs and he and my grandmother would sing for hours upon hours. My Moms was into frankie vallie and that whole type thing. My dad was into Jazz, heavily. My brother was a popular guy in the late 70's and listened to everything from Led Zeppelin to Michael Jackson, my sister was all Punk because she wasnt as popular as my brother (year apart and always in his shadow) My early years we had a music room... was really just a record player and a ton of albums. I would sit for hours and spin records... I still do something similar today, ok so its all MP3's.

To me the heartbeat of music is that thousand year old form of communication... the beat. Without the beat or heartbeat if you prefer, there'se no place for anything else. I want groove in my sounds... I'll take 3 minutes of Soul versus the answer to life anyday.

The bands in your doc without keyboards sounded cool. I really, really, enjoyed it. Just because I can't get behind "Jam Band Prog Rock" doesnt mean I can't appreciate what their trying to express. This is way to long... can't imagine its being read...

My fav's in no order... might help my point of view???

Led Zeppelin - Iron Maiden - John Coltrain - James Muther effin Brown - Dave Brubeck
Jimi Hendrix - Black Sabbath - Herbie Hancock - Muddy Waters - Beach Boys
Primus - Ozzy - NWA - Howlin Wolf - Beastie Boys
The Doors - Judas Priest - Snoop Dogg - T.I. - Jane's Addiction - Nirvana
Sublime - Santana - Sly and The Family Stone - RHCP - Kyuss... or Queens of the Stone Age if you prefer
Bob Marley - Miles Davis - Larry Grahm - FUGAZI!! - The Police
Barry Manilow - Billy Joel - Kool & The Gang - Earth Wind & Fire - Prince - Michael Jackson

I'm not sure what Prog Rock is anymore... if its good, its good! My aplogies to the other hundred bands I forgot to mention.lol!

Last edited by Zeus Mutation; 04-15-2011 at 06:50 PM. Reason: easier to read adjustment
Reply With Quote
  #247  
Old 04-15-2011, 10:07 PM
Deltadrummer's Avatar
Deltadrummer Deltadrummer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 2,685
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

I knew you'd like that doc Pol.

Yeah, what is prog rock?Many prog artists don't consider themselves prog, Ian Anderson and Peter Gabriel for example whereas Bruford would say that movement died thirty years ago, and musical allusions to it are not progressive. I like the doc; but it touches on some issues and then presents a biased view point towards the idea that record companies should indulge musicians whims irregardless of the potential of their investment. Niel Morse says in the video that when they first got Spock's Beard together, they thought they were unique until they realized that there were hundreds of bands doing what they were doing. So who gets funded and why? It's better if you prove yourself first I would say.

Now if people are complaining about the music that other people listen to, Rhiannon, Chris Rock or Eminem, you should be asking them why they bother. You have your bands that you like and others would ask that equally of you. The conflict reminds me of the Paul Simon song, Boy in the Bubble from Graceland, he says "every generation sends a hero up the pop charts." and that is important, that you feel you are being represented. People over 40 complain that top 40 does not represent their interests. One need remember that top 40 radio is very shortsighted. Miles didn't sell millions in his time; but is still selling, certainly better than Sonny and Cher. People under 30 tend to complain that FM radio doesn't represent their bands. They need to send their heroes up the pop charts as well.

As much as music is about communication, it is also about shared community. I remember I met this girl after HS who said to me, you're in college, I thought you were a burn out because of all that music you listened too. It would have been nice had I gone to a HS where people shared my interests.
__________________
Ken Marino Drum Teacher "It's not worth keeping score. You win some. You lose some, you let it go"

Last edited by Deltadrummer; 04-15-2011 at 10:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #248  
Old 04-15-2011, 10:09 PM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 7,785
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
Here's an interesting doc on progressive rock:

http://www.vimeo.com/21318405
I found it kind of odd. I like a lot of prog, but (with the exception of Pink Floyd) I only really like the metal influenced side of prog, which the documentary maker clearly did his best to avoid. He only barely mentions Dream Theater, and not a hint about Fates Warning, or any of the numerous European prog-metal bands, many of whom do really well in their home countries.

How do you a prog film and only mention Rush is passing? Aggravating.

He really focused on the 70's style, which as never been my cup of tea. It seems every 70's prog band uses the same keyboard sound, with the harmony runs.

It seems the movies intent is to drive prog further into the underground rather than help it along.

But the candid discussions about the music business were spot on.
Reply With Quote
  #249  
Old 04-16-2011, 06:36 PM
Deltadrummer's Avatar
Deltadrummer Deltadrummer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 2,685
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
I found it kind of odd. I like a lot of prog, but (with the exception of Pink Floyd) I only really like the metal influenced side of prog, which the documentary maker clearly did his best to avoid. He only barely mentions Dream Theater, and not a hint about Fates Warning, or any of the numerous European prog-metal bands, many of whom do really well in their home countries.

How do you a prog film and only mention Rush is passing? Aggravating.

He really focused on the 70's style, which as never been my cup of tea. It seems every 70's prog band uses the same keyboard sound, with the harmony runs.

It seems the movies intent is to drive prog further into the underground rather than help it along.

But the candid discussions about the music business were spot on.

I think part of that is that there are so many prog bands out there today and even back in the 1960s*-70s when it was at its commercial peak. The doc is from 2002, so it is dated. I don't know what his fascination with Echolyn was; but perhaps they were easiest to get access to.

I think you posts really points to the problem. We have the BB top 100, and at any given point, there are thousands of bands trying to get into it, trying to sell their product enough to be noticed. Bands like Dream Theater and Porcupine Tree do it and ahve success despite the obstacles. It took PT twenty years to get into the BB top 40 albums. That kind of tenacity should be an inspiration to any musician.

BTW, you analysis of Chinese Democracy was spot on. I think you ruined that album for me. It's a shame because there are a few songs on it that are really good and could have been up there with any of the great G n R tunes if they had been done right.
__________________
Ken Marino Drum Teacher "It's not worth keeping score. You win some. You lose some, you let it go"
Reply With Quote
  #250  
Old 04-16-2011, 09:18 PM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 7,785
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
I think part of that is that there are so many prog bands out there today and even back in the 1960s*-70s when it was at its commercial peak. The doc is from 2002, so it is dated. I don't know what his fascination with Echolyn was; but perhaps they were easiest to get access to.

I think you posts really points to the problem. We have the BB top 100, and at any given point, there are thousands of bands trying to get into it, trying to sell their product enough to be noticed. Bands like Dream Theater and Porcupine Tree do it and ahve success despite the obstacles. It took PT twenty years to get into the BB top 40 albums. That kind of tenacity should be an inspiration to any musician.
After thinking about it for a bit, would really bugged me about that movie is the film maker presents the prog fan as someone who has an open mind, and the music has having no rules. And yet, the film maker keeps a closed mind and puts rules on the music.

To say prog died out in the 80's and was unpopular is a complete misnomer. Rush albums in the 80's sold far better than there 70's albums did in the 70's. And while 80's Rush was not 10 minute long epics, the songs were still using odd times, high level of musicianship and complex parts. It was still prog. And the band was playing those longer 70's pieces to packed arenas every night. The music was still selling.

And then you had the whole neo-classic guitar shred movement in the 80s, which again totally fit the description of prog with high level of musicianship and complex parts. All those shredders were influenced by the 70's prog masters and we presenting their take on it as the next generation of prog.

Queenrsyche was never a prog band per se, but they had a lot of prog aspects (I used to used to refer to them as a semi-prog band). Their 1988 conceot album Operation Mindcrime being the best example. And Metallica's 1988 album And Justice for All was about as prog as you can get with odd time galore, long epic songs and crazy solos.

Just because prog went metal in the 80's doesn't mean it didn't exist.

And then to just mention Dream Theater in passing as "that metal band" was weird. Dream Theater was/is as prog as anyone can get. They had a gold album. And many of the bands mentioned in the movie, like Spocks Beard and the Flower Kings, owe their success to opening for Dream Theater, and/or Mike Portnoy talking about how great those bands are every chance he had. Dream Theater opened a lot of doors for the rest of these smaller prog bands, and it was just bizarre the movie didn't mention that.

Of course, I may be biased because the film maker left out some of my favorite bands, but still, facts are facts.

Quote:
BTW, you analysis of Chinese Democracy was spot on. I think you ruined that album for me. It's a shame because there are a few songs on it that are really good and could have been up there with any of the great G n R tunes if they had been done right.
Sorry, but at least you're only out two bucks. I can't believe the record company poured some $13 million into that album thinking they would still make a profit. Sure, Appetite sold 18 million copies, but the Use Your Illusion albums were around 7 million each. There is no way anyone could think Axl still had enough star power to sell enough to make back $13 million and then a profit.
Reply With Quote
  #251  
Old 04-16-2011, 09:41 PM
Deltadrummer's Avatar
Deltadrummer Deltadrummer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 2,685
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

I initiated the idea on several prog boards that the legacy of 70s prog, esp ELP, was not neo-prog but heavy metal and you know the reaction I got. You are definitely preaching to the choir. By 1978-79, none of the big bands were producing anything of substance, except for Rush, Look at what you had, Yes, Tormato, Tull Stormwatch, ELP Love Beach, Genesis Duke, Floyd The Wall. Yes, I bought all those albums. Fool me once. I am still no big fan of The Wall, sorry if that offends anyone. I did like later Genesis up until Genesis '83. It certainly wasn't progressive. My thesis was that the metallic, virtuostic sound of much 1980s prog metal is heard on Brain Salad Surgery. Tommy Lee spun his drum set, Keith Emerson spun his piano. It goes back to Crimson through Black Sabbath and voila, Peter Sinfield is on those albums, too.

I was going to ask you what you thought of Metallica. In 1984, I was at a cafe with a 14 year old girl. I asked her who was going to be the next great band, and she said Metallica, I argued and she insisted. That was the moment I knew that I would get out of touch with the younger generation. Of course, she was right, and now looking back, I should have been more open-minded. In retrospect, they are better than I ever gave them credit for.
__________________
Ken Marino Drum Teacher "It's not worth keeping score. You win some. You lose some, you let it go"
Reply With Quote
  #252  
Old 04-17-2011, 02:58 AM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 7,785
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Oh yes, Metallica. I can't say I got in on the ground floor. I was too young to get into the clubs when they were a club band, and never actually heard them until later on.

I clearly remember that night in 1988. I had graduated high school. I was working part time at a drum shop. I came home from work, had dinner, did whatever, and turned on MTV. The world premier of "One" came on. I was floored. I had never seen anyone use double bass like that before. The sheer epic-ness, the sheer power. I ran out and bought the album.

And holy cow, what an album at the time. They're playing thrash in 7/4. They're throwing in bars of 5/4 into the mix. Lars is going over the bar line, then playing a fill to land back on the 1. It was complex, powerful, epic, raw and refined at the same time.

So yeah, I went back and got the back catalog. I was a huge fan. I've seen them maybe 15 times. Occasionally driving a few hours to see them.

But, like many fans, I was disappointed in Load. And then why release Re-Load?
I saw them right around that time, and they mostly played material from Ride the Lightening and Master of Puppets. It was if even they knew their newer material sucked.

And sorry, St Anger was the worst piece of crap I've ever heard in my life. I refuse to spend another dime on that band until they send me a refund check for that garbage.

Still, Ride the Lightening never gets old. Some great songs on that album.
Reply With Quote
  #253  
Old 04-17-2011, 03:46 AM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 10,000
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

My only issue with the prog doco was that it was obvious the maker was a guitar-head. Endless guitar melodies, which is one of the less interesting aspects of prog for me.

I'm opposite to you, DED, give me 70s prog - and nowhere near metal - any day. Rush is hideous! *wink*.

Most symphonic stuff usually doesn't do it for me either, but I really like the fusion and ethno-influenced styles and the more experimental things - most Crimson, Zappa, Beefheart, Henry Cow, psychedelic Floyd, Soft Machine, Gong, early Tubes, Bowie's Berlin albums, Focus, Quiet Sun ... great music.

Of the newer crop, I find Tool the outstanding act - great vibe and the drumming is wonderful. Deity help me but I like old ELP ... I know, I know ... it's overblown, ridiculous and often grating but they come up with the coolest riffs and sounds at times (but often, just as you're getting into it, they throw in some ugly changes - eg. Eruption).

As with modern jazz, prog requires an educated ear. To the untrained ear that loves Top 40 wallpaper, prog and jazz sound messy, confused, overcomplicated and pointless.

As radio programmers reduced the variety of styles they'd play, people's ears became less open to the unusual. Yet mainstream artists have always fed off the more inventive groups on the fringe, reinventing the others' experiments in a more commercially palatable way. Thank deity for the internet or fringe music would be totally starved of exposure.
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
Reply With Quote
  #254  
Old 04-17-2011, 06:52 AM
Deltadrummer's Avatar
Deltadrummer Deltadrummer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 2,685
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
Oh yes, Metallica. I can't say I got in on the ground floor. I was too young to get into the clubs when they were a club band, and never actually heard them until later on.

I clearly remember that night in 1988. I had graduated high school. I was working part time at a drum shop. I came home from work, had dinner, did whatever, and turned on MTV. The world premier of "One" came on. I was floored. I had never seen anyone use double bass like that before. The sheer epic-ness, the sheer power. I ran out and bought the album.
In 1978, I was in awe of Van Halen as was everybody, and in 1984 I would have said that the biggest band would be U2, so I wasn't totally off the mark. But I wonder if some of the awe factor is lost with age. After the dense winter of Poison, Motley and the W bands, I did hear a refreshing breadth of creativity in GNR; but nothing that was going to give me the same awe and 'being floored' as in earlier days. Anyway, I had seen Aerosmith, and the thought of watching five drunks on stage was certainly not welcoming. Their reunion will probably be the best the band has every played, now that they are clean and sober, and also a lot more experienced.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post

I'm opposite to you, DED, give me 70s prog - and nowhere near metal - any day. Rush is hideous! *wink*.


Of the newer crop, I find Tool the outstanding act - great vibe and the drumming is wonderful. Deity help me but I like old ELP ... I know, I know ... it's overblown, ridiculous and often grating but they come up with the coolest riffs and sounds at times (but often, just as you're getting into it, they throw in some ugly changes - eg. Eruption).
ELP has a lot more going for it than people give them credit for. i.e The big dilemma of prog is how do you get 4 minutes of radio friendly music somewhere in your 30 minute epic. Emerson did that with KE9 1st imp part 2, where the whole epic is summed up in 5 minutes with the entrance of the great Sinfield line Welcome Back My Friends . . You had to be there. It's pure nonsense, somewhat Lewis Carroll, but it works. The whole idea of a industrial society that gives waste to a romantic ideology is the basis of heavy metal angst. That's what every kid goes through. You want to be alone in the woods, building forts and playing with you friends, and then one day they put a 'hammer' in your hand. You're the guy that has to chop all the trees down.
__________________
Ken Marino Drum Teacher "It's not worth keeping score. You win some. You lose some, you let it go"

Last edited by Deltadrummer; 04-17-2011 at 07:10 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #255  
Old 04-17-2011, 08:15 AM
Strangelove's Avatar
Strangelove Strangelove is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Somewhere west of sanity
Posts: 1,133
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Honestly, I like everything from prog to funk to r&b to jazz to techno to punk rock to classical to indigenous drum groups that nobody here would ever listen to. As for thinking that any genre is above the other is absolutely ridiculous and pretentious. Whether music comes from the drum beats of tribal origins or from the melodies of the almost drum free classical composers, it's all good to me. I love it all, and will never limit my music appreciation to one or a few genres.
Reply With Quote
  #256  
Old 04-18-2011, 01:56 AM
inneedofgrace's Avatar
inneedofgrace inneedofgrace is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: New Jersey - Exit 5
Posts: 1,560
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Just today I saw a new commercial on FOX for baseball, where they are trying to come up with ideas to appeal to more of the younger generation. So as they start coverage of a ballgame, Tim McCarver starts talking and his voice is altered heavily with autotune. After about 15 seconds, Joe Buck throws his microphone down and says "I can't do this".

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on today's pop music.

Too bad I couldn't find the commercial to link to it.
__________________
"Through many dangers, toils and snares..." - Amazing Grace, third verse
Reply With Quote
  #257  
Old 04-18-2011, 01:42 PM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 10,000
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
ELP has a lot more going for it than people give them credit for. i.e The big dilemma of prog is how do you get 4 minutes of radio friendly music somewhere in your 30 minute epic. Emerson did that with KE9 1st imp part 2, where the whole epic is summed up in 5 minutes with the entrance of the great Sinfield line Welcome Back My Friends . . You had to be there. It's pure nonsense, somewhat Lewis Carroll, but it works. The whole idea of a industrial society that gives waste to a romantic ideology is the basis of heavy metal angst. That's what every kid goes through. You want to be alone in the woods, building forts and playing with you friends, and then one day they put a 'hammer' in your hand. You're the guy that has to chop all the trees down.
Great observations, Ken. It can go either way - they'll either find a way of accepting the cruddiness of the world or they'll increasingly fall into weltschmurtz. The special thing about angsty music is the stance isn't sustainable; it captures that little moment in time before it dissipates.

I thought ELP's instrumentals were their best - Toccata, The Barbarian, Karn Evil 9: 2nd Impression, Eruption.

They also came up with some potentially lovely tracks that they managed to butcher - Still You Turn Me On ... gorgeous, if a bit dorky, but what was with "someone get me a ladder"? Rhymes with "madder" and "sadder"? Running out of time in the studio so grab anything that rhymes? Is he so overcome with emotion that he needs to distract himself with a bit of handyman work??

I wonder about the thought processes ... 'Hmm ... not much rhymes with "sadder" and "madder" ...I know! ... I've lost control of my bladder! ... No no, too crass ... umm ... I'm gonna kick a death adder? No, lacks drama ... Someone get me a ladder? ... hey, that's a bit iffy, Greg. ... Oh yeah? You think of something better, Carl ... How about you change the earlier lines to an easier rhyme? ... Nawwww, that's dumb. Bloody drummers!'.

And that wa-wa thing didn't fit. Or Take a Pebble ... it's going great and then there's this long, dull campfire strumming spot in the middle. Good on them for breaking the rules but, geez, they were pretty kooky and annoying at times lol ... Benny the Bouncer?

On the other hand, Carl P gets dissed unfairly for his groove - the man is a force.
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
Reply With Quote
  #258  
Old 04-18-2011, 02:16 PM
Deltadrummer's Avatar
Deltadrummer Deltadrummer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 2,685
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
Great observations, Ken. It can go either way - they'll either find a way of accepting the cruddiness of the world or they'll increasingly fall into weltschmurtz. The special thing about angsty music is the stance isn't sustainable; it captures that little moment in time before it dissipates.

I thought ELP's instrumentals were their best - Toccata, The Barbarian, Karn Evil 9: 2nd Impression, Eruption.

They also came up with some potentially lovely tracks that they managed to butcher - Still You Turn Me On ... gorgeous, if a bit dorky, but what was with "someone get me a ladder"? Rhymes with "madder" and "sadder"? Running out of time in the studio so grab anything that rhymes? Is he so overcome with emotion that he needs to distract himself with a bit of handyman work??

I wonder about the thought processes ... 'Hmm ... not much rhymes with "sadder" and "madder" ...I know! ... I've lost control of my bladder! ... No no, too crass ... umm ... I'm gonna kick a death adder? No, lacks drama ... Someone get me a ladder? ... hey, that's a bit iffy, Greg. ... Oh yeah? You think of something better, Carl ... How about you change the earlier lines to an easier rhyme? ... Nawwww, that's dumb. Bloody drummers!'.

And that wa-wa thing didn't fit. Or Take a Pebble ... it's going great and then there's this long, dull campfire strumming spot in the middle. Good on them for breaking the rules but, geez, they were pretty kooky and annoying at times lol ... Benny the Bouncer?

On the other hand, Carl P gets dissed unfairly for his groove - the man is a force.
Same goes for Trilogy. All that great piano music and then the most inane lyrics. I think much of that music stands better as an instrumental. Lake was not much of a lyricist. It's kind of the funny thing about being in a rock band. Oh, you're the singer, you have to write the lyrics. What about the drummer? So they brought in Sinfield, which was a good move. Sinfield had left Crimson that year because a mellotron almost fell on and killed him. Prog rock hazards. He was always a great conceptualist, another public school brat like Waters and Gabriel. It's all kind of silly but it's only rock n roll; it's theater. Read an opera libretto sometime. :)

I think ELP always gets a bad rap; but listen to the counterpoint throughout KE9, even in the drums with the lyrics, "Let the bridge computer speak." It's all counterpoint. There is an overt belief in prog rock that it dies with commercialism. It dies without it.
__________________
Ken Marino Drum Teacher "It's not worth keeping score. You win some. You lose some, you let it go"
Reply With Quote
  #259  
Old 04-18-2011, 02:25 PM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 10,000
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
Same goes for Trilogy. All that great piano music and then the most inane lyrics. I think much of that music stands better as an instrumental. Lake was not much of a lyricist. It's kind of the funny thing about being in a rock band. Oh, you're the singer, you have to write the lyrics. What about the drummer? So they brought in Sinfield, which was a good move. Sinfield had left Crimson that year because a mellotron almost fell on and killed him. Prog rock hazards. He was always a great conceptualist, another public school brat like Waters and Gabriel. It's all kind of silly but it's only rock n roll; it's theater. Read an opera libretto sometime. :)

I think ELP always gets a bad rap; but listen to the counterpoint throughout KE9, even in the drums with the lyrics, "Let the bridge computer speak." It's all counterpoint. There is an overt belief in prog rock that it dies with commercialism. It dies without it.
Greg L played some tremendous bass with ELP but vocally he was so much better early on with Crimson. That shouting shtick of his is bloody grating lol. Yes, Pete Sinfield was a good move; he actually improved with ELP.

Good point with the opera. Pure escapism, like fantasy, horror and adventure movies, thrillers, abstract and pop art and cartoons. The stuff of life! Screw romantic pop, sexpots showing off and rom coms reminding me of all the cute stuff I've long been too cynical to care about - give me escapist lunacy any day :)
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
Reply With Quote
  #260  
Old 04-18-2011, 02:44 PM
Deltadrummer's Avatar
Deltadrummer Deltadrummer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 2,685
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
Greg L played some tremendous bass with ELP but vocally he was so much better early on with Crimson. That shouting shtick of his is bloody grating lol. Yes, Pete Sinfield was a good move; he actually improved with ELP.

Good point with the opera. Pure escapism, like fantasy, horror and adventure movies, thrillers, abstract and pop art and cartoons. The stuff of life! Screw romantic pop, sexpots showing off and rom coms reminding me of all the cute stuff I've long been too cynical to care about - give me escapist lunacy any day :)
I think your point about technological music prepping folks for the technological society was a good one. Science dictates uniformity. We increasingly live in a society where non-conformity is suspect. It's strange to think that there was actually a time when it was hip to be out there. But as popular as that music was, I don't think it ever dominated the popular music landscape, at least not in America. That is such the fallacy, that prog rock came along and destroyed the three-minute pop song, or that punk destroyed prog. It's as much a fallacy as rock n roll destroyed jazz. Tell that to Dizzy.

I liked that line in the other doc where, I think it was Rick Wakeman says punk came along and all of sudden it was not cool to be able to play your instrument. It was only England that bought into the rubbish. And then they tied that into the the English sentiment for reservation, and said they had been going against that all the time. That was why they found a greater sense of acceptance in America where there was not such reserve. It's kind of strange that American didn't have the same degree of success in prog rock, perhaps because it had no deep rooted classical tradition. Well, we had fusion. I get in trouble for saying fusion was America's prog rock.:P
__________________
Ken Marino Drum Teacher "It's not worth keeping score. You win some. You lose some, you let it go"
Reply With Quote
  #261  
Old 04-18-2011, 03:31 PM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 10,000
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
I think your point about technological music prepping folks for the technological society was a good one. Science dictates uniformity. We increasingly live in a society where non-conformity is suspect. It's strange to think that there was actually a time when it was hip to be out there. But as popular as that music was, I don't think it ever dominated the popular music landscape, at least not in America. That is such the fallacy, that prog rock came along and destroyed the three-minute pop song, or that punk destroyed prog. It's as much a fallacy as rock n roll destroyed jazz. Tell that to Dizzy.

I liked that line in the other doc where, I think it was Rick Wakeman says punk came along and all of sudden it was not cool to be able to play your instrument. It was only England that bought into the rubbish. And then they tied that into the the English sentiment for reservation, and said they had been going against that all the time. That was why they found a greater sense of acceptance in America where there was not such reserve. It's kind of strange that American didn't have the same degree of success in prog rock, perhaps because it had no deep rooted classical tradition. Well, we had fusion. I get in trouble for saying fusion was America's prog rock.:P
Yes, now eccentricity = pathology. It's inefficient and therefore undesirable. Too many bloody people without enough time. What's on the radio? Ga Ga. Hey, that's catchy! Attention wanders to the next pressing obligation in Real Life (take kids to sport, do shopping, etc). Crimson? Ugh! What's that din! Soothe me ...

One thing taken from the 60s and 70s exploratory period that's endured (to say the least) is the theatrical side. The big show.

I agree about fusion being US's prog - the place for hot players to express themselves. Not sure why it gets you into trouble. When it came to American prog Zappa stands out a mile. Oh, and Beefheart. Then you had The Tubes before they were forced to pay their bills. Kansas had their moments, but a fair bit of it was just fancy AOR. Utopia had its moments but most people only know Todd R's soul tunes. Then some that didn't quite work out like Bebop Deluxe.

Never got into Rush. Annoying vocals and heavy rock with fancy bits. Soundwise it was pretty standard compared with other prog acts. Dream Theater seem to have similar taste issues to ELP. Tool's my fave of the new(ish) breed, and Don Cab. Have to say all those bands have tremendous drummers.

Most of the US fusion didn't have the same imagination in composition as the proggers but, in jazz tradition, the creativity often came in the improv and some of the musicianship was peerless. When I was a regular on Progarchives I was one of the people in the push to include Steely Dan.

I could see why there was resistance (the pop factor and only occasional shredding) but I figured that if they were going to include the "proto-prog" heavy groups like Purple and Sabs, surely they'd have a place for Dan. They ticked the boxes - quirky lyrics (and probably too good for prog :), challenging chord changes, incredible musicianship, unusual forms (Aja, Royal Scam, King of the World, Gold Teeth II), tricky accents and cut bars etc. Just that they were subtle and tasteful in the way they used the devices rather than hitting people over the head with it.
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
Reply With Quote
  #262  
Old 04-18-2011, 05:48 PM
Deltadrummer's Avatar
Deltadrummer Deltadrummer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 2,685
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

As far as PA, you and me both. Then they came to the conclusion that you had to include most everybody, first The Beatles, then Led Zep, then Steely Dan.

From what I remember, most of the Brit pop was classified as art rock, Pink Floyd, Yes, or Bowie because of its theatricality. You still see some docs that present it that way. There is that doc Seven Ages of Rock, I think it's another BBC doc.It presents it that way. Art rock included American groups like The Tubes or The Velvets,/Lou Reed or Roxy Music. Then at some point the Big Five became Progressive Rock; Pink Floyd, Genesis, ELP, Yes and Crimson. Originally it didn't include Floyd as it doesn't the 2008 BBC doc. Did you notice that omission? Progressive rock was ELP, early Genesis, Yes, Gentle Giant, Soft Machine,Van Der Graf or King Crimson, etc. The Big Seven? Some not so big. :)

I think Pink Floyd was originally omitted because by the time the term 'progressive rock' was being used to classify those bands a) the movement was over and b) Pink Floyd was such a stable on AOR and such a big seller. It's such a quandary of a term because then you have Ian Anderson saying that Pink Floyd was the most progressive band back in '67 and Tull was not progressive rock. And wouldn't you consider Talking Heads, Laurie Anderson or Kate Bush art rock? And of course as Ian, DED not Anderson, said, there are all the heavy metal bands form the 1980s that started to get more 'progressive,' Fates Warning, Queensryche and then Dream Theater.

You can argue the same thing about American musical Theater. It was dead by 1990 and then it was revived by Disney who took a then ailing 42nd, which was known for drugs and prostitution, and made it kid friendly. Now Broadway is the most popular tourist attraction in the US beating out the other most popular tourist attraction up to that point, which was Disneyland, now two and Disneyworld, Orlando, now three. If you watch the Disney channel you will see a bunch of shows that have nothing to do with reality and are steeped in cliches about student teacher roles, parent child roles, and male female roles. I think they are producing a generation of kids who have no real understanding of social roles. Kids that would talk on the phone or text while they are with another person. I was in a restaurant yesterday and there were six boys there. Two had headsets on. I longed for the days when they would come in with their boom box and blast their rap music. At least it was a social activity. :)
__________________
Ken Marino Drum Teacher "It's not worth keeping score. You win some. You lose some, you let it go"

Last edited by Deltadrummer; 04-18-2011 at 06:01 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #263  
Old 04-18-2011, 06:58 PM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 7,785
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post

Never got into Rush. Annoying vocals and heavy rock with fancy bits. Soundwise it was pretty standard compared with other prog acts. Dream Theater seem to have similar taste issues to ELP. Tool's my fave of the new(ish) breed, and Don Cab. Have to say all those bands have tremendous drummers.
.
This is the discussion I have with my wife all the time. She hates Rush, but loves Tool.
But when I listen to Tool, I hear such a huge Rush influence, just tuned down. Similar melodies, song structures, and heck, even some of Tool's music video's are similar-ish to some of Rush's music videos. Tool is Rush Jr, updated for the next generation. So always find it odd she can't at least have a mild appreciation for the parent band.

I do agree with one point you made about Prog lyrics not being all love songs. I think that was a huge draw to me as well. Sure, I love Journey, but one can only take so many darn love songs. Please, let's discuss something else.

But at the same time, I can't get into the fantasy lyrics some bands put out. I don't care about how you have the golden ring that you need to get to the volcano so you can slay the dragon to save the land of whatever. Ugh!

Which is why, even as a huge Rush fan, I don't care about By Tor and the Snow dog. Stupid lyrics that make no sense.

2112 was at least a giant metaphor for individual against great power, and the power of music to be something highly important to the individual even when it does not appeal to the mases.

Oh, come to think of it, going back to some other thread, we were discussing about grunge and heroin and why I was never ever tempted to do drugs I think goes back to Queensryche's "Operation Mindcrime" album, as it had a big anti-heroin theme. As did the fun-but-cheesy Aldo Nova song "Monkey on Your Back" from the early 80's.
Reply With Quote
  #264  
Old 04-19-2011, 12:56 PM
wy yung wy yung is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,029
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

I remember when M released the song, Pop music.

He sugggested we all "Talk about, pop pop pop music".

I hope he's reading this thread. That such a simple song is being discussed in detail so many years later must be a real boost to M's ego.

That drummers would take his suggestion so literally is a subject worthy of a detailed psychological paper.


I mean the song was ok. But it wasn't The rite of Spring!!!???
Reply With Quote
  #265  
Old 04-19-2011, 04:44 PM
inneedofgrace's Avatar
inneedofgrace inneedofgrace is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: New Jersey - Exit 5
Posts: 1,560
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by wy yung View Post
I remember when M released the song, Pop music.

He sugggested we all "Talk about, pop pop pop music".

I hope he's reading this thread. That such a simple song is being discussed in detail so many years later must be a real boost to M's ego.

That drummers would take his suggestion so literally is a subject worthy of a detailed psychological paper.


I mean the song was ok. But it wasn't The rite of Spring!!!???
Reminds me of the 1997 Hanson song MMM Bop I heard on the radio last weekend. I want to hate the song, but it is so daggone catchy...... :)
__________________
"Through many dangers, toils and snares..." - Amazing Grace, third verse
Reply With Quote
  #266  
Old 04-22-2011, 09:52 AM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 10,000
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
This is the discussion I have with my wife all the time. She hates Rush, but loves Tool.
But when I listen to Tool, I hear such a huge Rush influence, just tuned down. Similar melodies, song structures, and heck, even some of Tool's music video's are similar-ish to some of Rush's music videos. Tool is Rush Jr, updated for the next generation. So always find it odd she can't at least have a mild appreciation for the parent band.

I do agree with one point you made about Prog lyrics not being all love songs. I think that was a huge draw to me as well. Sure, I love Journey, but one can only take so many darn love songs. Please, let's discuss something else.

But at the same time, I can't get into the fantasy lyrics some bands put out. I don't care about how you have the golden ring that you need to get to the volcano so you can slay the dragon to save the land of whatever. Ugh!

Which is why, even as a huge Rush fan, I don't care about By Tor and the Snow dog. Stupid lyrics that make no sense.
There might be some similarities between Rush and Tool, but I find the vibe very different. Tool's music is darker, more exotic, more psychedelic and it flows more. I find Rush music more mainstream - be it metal or AOR - whereas Tool never does.

I miss a lot of lyrics so if the vocals aren't way up and the singer's diction isn't great, then chances are I'll just tune into the music and treat the vocals as an instrument.

Agree that lyrics talking of the evil faeries planning to take over the peaceful kingdom of Zorothastclasm don't do it for me either. And this coming from a huge fan of fantasy fiction :) Weird, but in music it just seems to come off as goofy.

There are some classic bad prog lyrics out there. I always thought that Crimson's Cirkus was an outstanding track but ...
Night: her sable dome scattered with diamonds,
Fused my dust from a light year,
Squeezed me to her breast, sowed me with carbon,
Strung my warp across time
Gave me each a horse, sunrise and graveyard,
Told me only I was her;
Bid me face the east closed me in questions
Built the sky for my dawn.
"Bid me face the east"? ... lol ... uh, that's pretty medieval, Pete. Maybe 400 years late? I almost prefer "get down and boogie, yeah baybee, ooo ooo" ... almost :)
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
Reply With Quote
  #267  
Old 04-22-2011, 10:31 AM
Frost's Avatar
Frost Frost is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 933
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

This is my current argument against all pop music, it gave birth to this abomination,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5ICY3mc45c
__________________
A disquiet mind at therapy with the music.
Reply With Quote
  #268  
Old 04-22-2011, 12:21 PM
Deltadrummer's Avatar
Deltadrummer Deltadrummer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 2,685
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post

There are some classic bad prog lyrics out there. I always thought that Crimson's Cirkus was an outstanding track but ...
Night: her sable dome scattered with diamonds,
Fused my dust from a light year,
Squeezed me to her breast, sowed me with carbon,
Strung my warp across time
Gave me each a horse, sunrise and graveyard,
Told me only I was her;
Bid me face the east closed me in questions
Built the sky for my dawn.
"Bid me face the east"? ... lol ... uh, that's pretty medieval, Pete. Maybe 400 years late? I almost prefer "get down and boogie, yeah baybee, ooo ooo" ... almost :)
I've gotten in trouble for saying this as well, but these guys were young and they really had not idea how to write a lyric. The first thing you learn about lyric writing is that the alliterations have to go. the first two Crim albums were full of them if I recall. paranoia's poison door. Wait, In the Court of the Crimson King. The album title was an alliteration.

The purple piper plays his tune,
The choir softly sing;
Three lullabies in an ancient tongue,
For the court of the crimson king.

Three alliterations in one quatrain. It sounds good. But you know that he is generating ideas from the sounds of the words and the rhymes, not from ideas.

The second thing you learn is that the adjectives (and adverbs) have to go. Not everything needs to be modified. Sinfield wrote pop lyrics in the 1980s. I don't know how good they were. When Gabriel simplified his language and came up with "In Your Eyes" you understood why those guys swore off prog.
__________________
Ken Marino Drum Teacher "It's not worth keeping score. You win some. You lose some, you let it go"
Reply With Quote
  #269  
Old 04-22-2011, 01:51 PM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 10,000
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
I've gotten in trouble for saying this as well, but these guys were young and they really had not idea how to write a lyric. The first thing you learn about lyric writing is that the alliterations have to go. the first two Crim albums were full of them if I recall. paranoia's poison door. Wait, In the Court of the Crimson King. The album title was an alliteration.

The purple piper plays his tune,
The choir softly sing;
Three lullabies in an ancient tongue,
For the court of the crimson king.

Three alliterations in one quatrain. It sounds good. But you know that he is generating ideas from the sounds of the words and the rhymes, not from ideas.

The second thing you learn is that the adjectives (and adverbs) have to go. Not everything needs to be modified. Sinfield wrote pop lyrics in the 1980s. I don't know how good they were. When Gabriel simplified his language and came up with "In Your Eyes" you understood why those guys swore off prog.
When I was thinking of some of prog's bad words I was thinking of In the Court but ... somewhere along the line I feel like it's an analogy for something too clever and deep for me to discern.

Yes, the main function of adjectives in a lyric IMO is to align the rhythm of a rhyming doublet :) Really, it's hard enough to squeeze in coherent ideas into something as short as a lyric (unless your singer has a Dylan's memory) without having extraneous words in there.

And do you remember Sinfield's terrible misjudgement in Ladies of the Road?
Two fingered Levi'd sister
Said, "Peace", I stopped I kissed her.
Said, "I'm a male resister",
I smiled and just unzipped her.

High diving chinese trender
Black hair and black suspender
Said, "Please me no surrender
Just love to feel your Fender".

Stone-headed Frisco spacer
Ate all the meat I gave her
Said would I like to taste hers
And even craved the flavour

"Like marron-glaced fish bones
Oh lady hit the road!"
Tragic. Written by Howard Wolowitz??

I heard someone say - and I'm inclined to believe them - that prog bands should not do sex (lyrically). In this case, I think purple pipers would be less embarrassing. The saddest thing is that musically the song is outstanding. Bob Fripp's imitation of a bad guitarist in his solo is a riot. You have to be good to pretend to play that bad.
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
Reply With Quote
  #270  
Old 04-22-2011, 02:37 PM
mediocrefunkybeat
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

I'm going to go right out and say it.

There are very few Rock bands with good lyrics. In fact, there are very few bands out there with good lyrics. Maybe I'm going to come out as controversial here, but I honestly think that a lot of what puts me off of older Rock bands like Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple isn't just the pomp, but it's the terrible, terrible lyrics they shoehorn in. There are massive exceptions - Bowie wrote some great lines, as did Pink Floyd sometimes (some albums are better than others) and the lyrics aren't always a deal-breaker for me; but sometimes I actually get embarrassed listening to them. It's like listening to John Wetton singing - it's just not very good and you can't redress it any other way.

I will openly admit, however, that I don't really listen to the vocals in a lot of songs. If there's a group of people listening to a song, I will be the last to tell you what they actually said and I'm much more likely to reply with a comment about the recording technique, dodgy editing or bad key change. Wether that's the result of listening to a lot of really bad lyrics and just giving up or natural propensity, I'm not sure. But when I'm enjoying something on a musical level and cringing at the vocals, I'm not enjoying it.

Furthermore, I'm absolutely with Polly. Prog had the worst lyrics of all - and still does. Do I want to hear any Dream Theater lyrics? No. Absolutely not. Do I want to hear any Dream Theater? Well, I think you can answer that one yourselves. Tool are the exception that proves the rule, but even they come out with some cabbages from time to time.
Reply With Quote
  #271  
Old 04-22-2011, 03:24 PM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 10,000
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by mediocrefunkybeat View Post
I'm going to go right out and say it.

There are very few Rock bands with good lyrics. In fact, there are very few bands out there with good lyrics. Maybe I'm going to come out as controversial here, but I honestly think that a lot of what puts me off of older Rock bands like Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple isn't just the pomp, but it's the terrible, terrible lyrics they shoehorn in. There are massive exceptions - Bowie wrote some great lines, as did Pink Floyd sometimes (some albums are better than others) and the lyrics aren't always a deal-breaker for me; but sometimes I actually get embarrassed listening to them. It's like listening to John Wetton singing - it's just not very good and you can't redress it any other way.

I will openly admit, however, that I don't really listen to the vocals in a lot of songs ...
+1,000,000 lol ... Deep Purple's Highway Star has the worst lyrics. It makes Ladies of the Road seem like high art ...
Nobody gonna take my car
I'm gonna race it to the ground
Nobody gonna beat my car
It's gonna break the speed of sound

Ooh it's a killing machine
It's got everything
Like a driving power big fat tyres
And everything

I love it and I need it, I bleed it
Yeah, it's a wild hurricane
Alright, hold tight
I'm a highway star

Nobody gonna take my girl
I'm gonna keep her to the end
Nobody gonna have my girl
She stays close on every bend

Ooh she's a killing machine
She got everything
Like a moving mouth body control
And everything

I love her, I need her, I seed her
Yeah, she turns me on
Alright, hold tight
I'm a highway star
"I seed her" ... creeeeepy ...

John Wetton has a rich tone between the rough ones but he sings a lot of flat notes and he always sounds a bit messy, as though he has trouble spitting out fast consonants.

Still, modern pop takes the cake for vacuous lyrics ...
Na na na na
Come on
Na na na na
Come on
Na na na na na
Come on
Na na na na
Come on, come on, come on
Na na na na
Come on
Na na na na
Come on
Na na na na na
Come on
Na na na na
Come on, come on, come on
Na na na na

Feels so good being bad (Oh oh oh oh oh)
There's no way I'm turning back (Oh oh oh oh oh)
Now the pain is my pleasure cause nothing could measure (Oh oh oh oh oh)

Love is great, love is fine (Oh oh oh oh oh)
Out the box, outta line (Oh oh oh oh oh)
The affliction of the feeling leaves me wanting more (Oh oh oh oh oh)

Cause I may be bad, but I'm perfectly good at it
Sex in the air, I don't care, I love the smell of it
Sticks and stones may break my bones
But chains and whips excite me
"Love is great, love is fine (Oh oh oh oh oh)" ... OMG
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
Reply With Quote
  #272  
Old 04-22-2011, 04:02 PM
mediocrefunkybeat
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Rhianna is total rubbish, I agree.

But that doesn't make 'Highway Star' any better lyrically. It's Godawful.

I never could stand Wetton's singing, but at least the vocals-to-instrumental ratio is in a positive balance.
Reply With Quote
  #273  
Old 04-22-2011, 04:03 PM
sticks4drums
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

I understand what you guys are saying. Lyrics have always been of great importance to me. Growing up I really liked Elton John. I loved the piano. To this day it is my favorite instrument. I have two in the house. Everyone in my family have taken some lessons, but none of us have stayed with it. I could sit and listen to the piano all day long. Bernie Taupin wrote some great lyrics for Elton that I still sing and remember to this day. Yes there was some fluffy ones in there, but they were for fun.

My older brother listened to heavier stuff during my Elton John stage. I picked up my next influence from him. He listened to Max Webster, Led Zeppelin, Jethro Tull, and many others of that Genre. One band I hung on to was RUSH. They just didn't sing about girls, and rock, and drugs. Neil had some pretty heady lyrics. Sometimes too heady. They were hard to figure out. At least they had, for the most part some substance to them.

A lot of rock lyrics throughout the ages has been very simple. The 50's were probably the worst. My memory sucks, so I have a hard time thinking up song titles as examples, but I have heard enough of them to know that they were pretty thin.

Today bands like Nickleback are a complete joke to me. There lyrics are pretty much fluff, and they can't seem to write any lyrics without swearing in them. It seems kind of pointless because they are a popular band, and all their stuff gets played on the radio. Then they have to mute out the lyrics. Kind of wrecks the song. A rock band that I really like nowadays is Alter Bridge. They seem to put some thought into what they write about.
A good exampleis this song.

"In Loving Memory"

Thanks for all you've done
I've missed you for so long
I can't believe you're gone
You still live in me
I feel you in the wind
You guide me constantly

I've never knew what it was to be alone, no
Cause you were always there for me
You were always there waiting
And ill come home and I miss your face so
Smiling down on me
I close my eyes to see

And I know, you're a part of me
And it's your song that sets me free
I sing it while I feel I can't hold on
I sing tonight cause it comforts me

I carry the things that remind me of you
In loving memory of
The one that was so true
Your were as kind as you could be
And even though you're gone
You still mean the world to me

I've never knew what it was to be alone, no
Cause you were always there for me
You were always there waiting
But now I come home and it's not the same, no
It feels empty and alone
I can't believe you're gone

And I know, you're a part of me
And it's your song that sets me free
I sing it while I feel I can't hold on
I sing tonight cause it comforts me

I'm glad he set you free from sorrow
I'll still love you more tomorrow
And you will be here with me still

And what you did you did with feeling
And You always found the meaning
And you always will
And you always will
And you always will

Ooo's

And I know, you're a part of me
And it's your song that sets me free
I sing it while I feel I can't hold on
I sing tonight cause it comforts me

I like the band Tool very much musically, but they are just so dark and their lyrics really aren't family friendly. My kids are getting older now, but when they were younger I just did not want to play this stuff with them in the house. Heck dark lyrics really seem to effect me in a negative way. This is a big reason I don't listen to heavier forms of Metal.

With my new band I want to write lyrics that have a meaning, with music that is up beat and has an edge. Here is an example of something I just wrote. I take a big chance putting it out there, but what the heck. What better place to be torn apart than the internet.

Dead Leaves

I saw it in the sky
As the clouds rolled in to stay
Summers warmth is fleeting
Winters cold, on its way

The leaves fall from the trees
Those silly cats begin to chase
When they finally capture
You can see it on their face

The prize they thought they had
Was only dead and dry
No one could tell them different
They had to chase, believe the lie

From time to time, just like those cats,
We begin to stray
When what we have is here to stay.

Donít waste your days, chasing dead leaves
There here today, then blown away with a breeze
Hang on to living things, roots firmly in the ground
In my wife, this Iíve found

Another winters passed
New life is on its way
Seems like things are steady
Complacency held at bay

The sun beats on our face
Flowers sprout from the ground
It all seems so beautiful
No distractions can be found

We go about lifeís daily tasks
Balancing work and play
Trials and tribulations
Seem forever in the way

When it all seems overwhelming
And our grass seems kind of grey
Just remember those cats at play

Donít waste your days, chasing dead leaves
There here today, then blown away with a breeze
Hang on to living things, roots firmly in the ground
In my wife, this I have found
Reply With Quote
  #274  
Old 04-22-2011, 04:37 PM
mattsmith's Avatar
mattsmith mattsmith is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Nashville
Posts: 1,911
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by mediocrefunkybeat View Post
I'm going to go right out and say it.

There are very few Rock bands with good lyrics. In fact, there are very few bands out there with good lyrics. Maybe I'm going to come out as controversial here, but I honestly think that a lot of what puts me off of older Rock bands like Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple isn't just the pomp, but it's the terrible, terrible lyrics they shoehorn in. There are massive exceptions - Bowie wrote some great lines, as did Pink Floyd sometimes (some albums are better than others) and the lyrics aren't always a deal-breaker for me; but sometimes I actually get embarrassed listening to them. It's like listening to John Wetton singing - it's just not very good and you can't redress it any other way.

I will openly admit, however, that I don't really listen to the vocals in a lot of songs. If there's a group of people listening to a song, I will be the last to tell you what they actually said and I'm much more likely to reply with a comment about the recording technique, dodgy editing or bad key change. Wether that's the result of listening to a lot of really bad lyrics and just giving up or natural propensity, I'm not sure. But when I'm enjoying something on a musical level and cringing at the vocals, I'm not enjoying it.

Furthermore, I'm absolutely with Polly. Prog had the worst lyrics of all - and still does. Do I want to hear any Dream Theater lyrics? No. Absolutely not. Do I want to hear any Dream Theater? Well, I think you can answer that one yourselves. Tool are the exception that proves the rule, but even they come out with some cabbages from time to time.
1000% agree...Prog lyrics suck...except for Zappa's which were satirical, biting and supremely funny in a clever 10 year old boy kind of way.

With that said I really hate when people throw Zappa into that prog heap /like I disrespectfully did to make an obvious point/ Zappa was Zappa period and some of that stuff like Gregory Peccary was pure brilliance.

Gregory Peccary...now that was one cool libretto. I've probably listened to the Lather compilation 800-900 times.
__________________
I endorse Zildjian sticks because I like them.
Reply With Quote
  #275  
Old 04-22-2011, 07:17 PM
mediocrefunkybeat
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Agreed, I don't put Zappa in with those other bands. He's a satirist and a composer, which is a totally different thing. My favourite Zappa album is actually 'Freak Out!' with the Mothers of Invention. I used to listen to it all the time, but I lost my copy and I won't pay £15 for a CD these days. His music was quirky, but in a totally different way to Prog - Prog became a formula very quickly which actually meant that it wasn't 'progressive' after more than a couple of years and I'm totally with people who don't want to be labelled pejoratively as a 'Prog' band.
Reply With Quote
  #276  
Old 04-22-2011, 07:51 PM
sticks4drums
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by mediocrefunkybeat View Post
Agreed, I don't put Zappa in with those other bands. He's a satirist and a composer, which is a totally different thing. My favourite Zappa album is actually 'Freak Out!' with the Mothers of Invention. I used to listen to it all the time, but I lost my copy and I won't pay £15 for a CD these days. His music was quirky, but in a totally different way to Prog - Prog became a formula very quickly which actually meant that it wasn't 'progressive' after more than a couple of years and I'm totally with people who don't want to be labelled pejoratively as a 'Prog' band.
If you are going to use words like pejoratively you need to put the definition for us simple folk ;)
Reply With Quote
  #277  
Old 04-22-2011, 08:00 PM
mediocrefunkybeat
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by sticks4drums View Post
If you are going to use words like pejoratively you need to put the definition for us simple folk ;)
Gah! Definitions! Derogatory. I suppose that would be listed in a thesaurus!
Reply With Quote
  #278  
Old 04-22-2011, 09:41 PM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 7,785
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Well, it's easy to point out bad or silly lyrics, because there are so many of them.

But to say an entire genre of music has bad lyrics is just not paying attention and giving into stereotyping. We don't say all jazz is boring because the record store puts a certain Musak artist in the jazz bin.

Dream Theater has some great lyrics, and some really stupid ones, depending on the album/song. Same with Rush, some are brilliant, some are lame.

But I agree too many bands want to focus on just recycled love song themes. That does get old. And I admit, I've never understood why Aerosmith is so popular, given all there songs (save two) have pretty silly lyrical concepts.

What I really can't stand are fantasy lyrics. It's the main reason I can't not get into Nightwish, even though they have a lot of talent. And one of the big reasons the last two Dream Theater albums blew chunks.
Reply With Quote
  #279  
Old 04-22-2011, 10:09 PM
Deltadrummer's Avatar
Deltadrummer Deltadrummer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 2,685
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
Well, it's easy to point out bad or silly lyrics, because there are so many of them.

But to say an entire genre of music has bad lyrics is just not paying attention and giving into stereotyping. We don't say all jazz is boring because the record store puts a certain Musak artist in the jazz bin.

Dream Theater has some great lyrics, and some really stupid ones, depending on the album/song. Same with Rush, some are brilliant, some are lame.

But I agree too many bands want to focus on just recycled love song themes. That does get old. And I admit, I've never understood why Aerosmith is so popular, given all there songs (save two) have pretty silly lyrical concepts.

What I really can't stand are fantasy lyrics. It's the main reason I can't not get into Nightwish, even though they have a lot of talent. And one of the big reasons the last two Dream Theater albums blew chunks.

I agree, Ian. Of course the doc goes into the pretension of Rush's prog songs. But when "I have dined on honey dew and drank the milk of paradise." gave way to Moving Pictures or even Spirit of Radio, Peart's simpler lyricism was creating some more interesting lyrics. Same with Peter Gabriel who wrote some really thought provoking lyrics in his prog days, and emerged as a great pop songwriter after Genesis. Take apart Supper's Ready verse for verse and you will a guy who knew his Milton and Blake. I also thought DT Metropolis was a great concept. I don't really remember how well it was written lyrically.

Ian Anderson was another satirical writer that came out of the prog days, and in my opinion probably better than anyone mentioned here. He got into trouble with Robert Plant in the early 1980s for saying he had always wondered what his lyrics would sound like with Jimmy Page's writing. Those two bands came up together, but Plant was not happy with that statement, which he took to mean, I wonder what Jimmy Page's music would sound like with some good lyrics. Of course , that's how we all took it. We knew what he meant.

If you want to good lyricist for American popular music look no further than Paul Simon. I had a friend years ago who was a songwriter on a small label. I asked him who his favorite lyricist was and he answered Paul Simon. I asked why and he said, "because he edits so well." One day looking at this lyric I knew what he meant. Nice rhyme of colors with summers. There are multiple level of meaning in this little pop ditty that could be a commercial.

When I think back
On all the crap I learned in high school
It's a wonder
I can think at all
And though my lack of education
Hasn't hurt me none
I can read the writing on the wall

Kodachrome
They give us those nice bright colors
They give us the greens of summers
Makes you think all the world's
a sunny day
I got a Nikon camera
I love to take a photograph
So mama don't take my Kodachrome away

If you took all the girls I knew
When I was single
And brought them all together
for one night
I know they'd never match
my sweet imagination
Everything looks worse
in black and white
__________________
Ken Marino Drum Teacher "It's not worth keeping score. You win some. You lose some, you let it go"
Reply With Quote
  #280  
Old 04-22-2011, 10:55 PM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 7,785
Default Re: My rant on today's pop music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
I agree, Ian. Of course the doc goes into the pretension of Rush's prog songs. But when "I have dined on honey dew and drank the milk of paradise." gave way to Moving Pictures or even Spirit of Radio, Peart's simpler lyricism was creating some more interesting lyrics.
heh.....I knew someone would bring up Xanadu.

Granted, that song does contain odd lyrics, although he there is a moral to the story, but it might take listening to the song 100 times to understand it. (be careful what you wish for, you just might get it end up miserable) But yeah, his lyrics got much better into the 80's. He went to back to hit and miss in the 90's.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:54 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com