DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > Drum Gear > Other Gear

Other Gear Discuss Hardware and all other equipment not covered in the other topics

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 03-30-2011, 07:34 PM
joshvibert's Avatar
joshvibert joshvibert is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Oakwood, GA
Posts: 299
Default Kick mic: in or out?

What are the pros/cons of mounting your kick mic inside vs outside of the drum? I have a pretty good sounding kick (everytime a sound guy mic's it, he says it's one of the best he's heard) using Aquarian Superkick's front and back. The reso head is ported from Aquarian.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-30-2011, 07:41 PM
Bo Eder's Avatar
Bo Eder Bo Eder is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 11,533
Default Re: Kick mic: in or out?

Are you talking about mic'ing your kick from the outside with a non-ported reso head as opposed to inside with the ported reso head? Those are two different things. The popular thing to do if you have a ported reso is to get the mic inside so it's isolated from everything else. Obviously, mic'ing from the outside doesn't give you the isolation, and your tuning of the drum has to be more spot-on because your front head may sound very different to the mic when put up close. In a studio with a non-ported front head, I find if I move the kick mic back from the drum, say, about two feet, the mic picks up this great whole bass drum sound. Some guys get a great sound with the mic just a few inches away from the front of the drum. But in a live setting, the isolation will be the issue.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-30-2011, 07:44 PM
caddywumpus's Avatar
caddywumpus caddywumpus is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Portland, OR USA
Posts: 5,589
Default Re: Kick mic: in or out?

Inside: you get the sound of the batter head--more attack, isolation from other mics

Outside: you get the sound that the audience would hear anyways, if it weren't miked.

...a third option is to mic the batter head, which gives you plenty of attack, and it picks up what the drummer hears. This is a pretty cool option as well, that most people don't consider. Above all, experiment with your setup and find the sound that YOU prefer...
__________________
Be vewwy quiet, I'm hunting Lawwy

My kit: http://drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44195
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-30-2011, 07:56 PM
T.Underhill's Avatar
T.Underhill T.Underhill is offline
Pioneer Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: MD
Posts: 1,559
Default Re: Kick mic: in or out?

With a ported head? Inside but only with proper gating and mixing. We tried the batter head and too much snare was bleeding into it and it wasn't worth the time to figure it out! Deadly sounding punch when mic'd inside...for me anyways.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-30-2011, 08:12 PM
PQleyR's Avatar
PQleyR PQleyR is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Godalming, UK
Posts: 2,280
Default Re: Kick mic: in or out?

I would always put a mic in the drum if it's ported, but ideally I'd use another mic as well. Depending on the situation it could be a condenser a short distance forward from the drum, for recording, or perhaps a boundary mic on the inside of the drum, or just in front, for live.
I think if you want a big bass drum sound you're unlikely to capture it perfectly with just one mic.
__________________
Drummer for Gloryhammer
My facebook page
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-30-2011, 09:39 PM
Chonson's Avatar
Chonson Chonson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 472
Default Re: Kick mic: in or out?

IMO it depends so heavily on the sound you're wanting to go for. Live, generally just stick it in there a bit, get it so that no guitarists or singers can cause the mic stand to tear your head, and be done with it.

Studio, there's so much to consider and you could probably write a short book just on micing the kick drum and techniques there. Inside you'll get greater isolation but it'll sound less natural; you'll have more attack but it'll have less of the roundness.

Outside is great for certain drums, and for certain vibes in recording. I love micing one of my bass drums about 2-3 feet out because it's just so real but nice and deep; the downside is that you have to be really careful about bleeding and any sort of manipulation of the kick sound because you can wind up with weird cymbal sounds, for instance.

It's such a massive topic, and it's not at all uncommon for the answer to be "both"... or some variant. (one pointed at the beater from the playing side, another at the end of a tunnel of a few bass drum shells, etc.) All depends on what you want to hear and how exactly you want the bass drum to be perceived.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-30-2011, 10:20 PM
joshvibert's Avatar
joshvibert joshvibert is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Oakwood, GA
Posts: 299
Default Re: Kick mic: in or out?

My primary concern is live applications. In a small room, I really don't even need it as the bass is so deep and boomy. I just put in an order for the Shure kit that includes the B52, so I'm trying to determine how best to mount it:
1) Short straight stand outside
2) Boom stand
3) Clamp neck thing
4) Kelly SHU - this appeals to me the most as I could just mount it and leave it in there, but it's also the most expensive option.

In the past, I've had sound guys just stick a mic right in front of the port, but through searching/reading here, it seems that is not a good approach.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-31-2011, 01:40 AM
timmdrum's Avatar
timmdrum timmdrum is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Wilson, NC
Posts: 732
Default Re: Kick mic: in or out?

My BD mic is mounted in a Kelly Shu. Reso head is ported just for the convenience of plugging/unplugging the cable, or if the mic clip works loose from its mount. I don't have the Shu dead center, but rather, kinda near the port, which is at about 4:30, and the mic is pointed diagonally across the middle of the drum to a spot on the batter about halfway between the beater spot and the bearing edge. I love the sound that this gets, but I admit I didn't put a lot of thought into it. Just lucky, I guess. The mic is a cheaper CAD that came in a pack. Pretty decent mics for the money.

An aside- I've been thinking of experimenting with pointing the mic directly sideways toward the shell. Anyone tried this?
__________________
My player site
My instructor site
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-31-2011, 02:25 AM
IDDrummer's Avatar
IDDrummer IDDrummer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: I-Dee-Ho
Posts: 3,361
Default Re: Kick mic: in or out?

I use and like the Kelly Shu. The composite version is not all that expensive and I find it to be well worth it. Setup is quick and easy, the mic is protected, stands don't get kicked, etc.

If you go with a boom and a ported head, putting that B52 JUST inside the port will give you plenty of isolation, plenty of attack, and tends to preserve the roundness of the note more than sticking the mic way inside close to the batter head. Incidentally, I have my mic as close to the reso side as it will go when mounted on the Shu, as well.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-31-2011, 02:26 AM
audiotech
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Kick mic: in or out?

I don't believe in placing a microphone inside of the bass drum as long as it has it's resonant head on. There are just too many air turbulence inside of a two headed bass drum. Add to this the proximity effect of a cardioid microphone and the mud starts to evolve. Also putting a microphone inside of a drum is like turning the heads of the drum into giant diaphragms that react with anything in close proximity to the kit. This includes the bass, guitar and keyboard parasitic oscillations. I've proven this many, many times to artists and their producers in the studio. If you want a full bodied sound from a bass drum, mic it from the front head. If you want more attack, point either a short shotgun mic or cardioid at the batter head where the beater hits and slightly mix it with the resonant head microphone, but keeping both mics away from the extreme air turbulence. I saw an individual once try to use a ribbon mic at a porthole. The ribbon microphone didn't even make it through the mic check.



Dennis
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-31-2011, 02:34 AM
sticks4drums
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Kick mic: in or out?

This is how Neil Pearts drum tech does it. The mic is pointed to where the head meets the shell.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-31-2011, 03:06 AM
simmsdn simmsdn is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: North Pole, AK
Posts: 594
Default Re: Kick mic: in or out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiotech View Post
I saw an individual once try to use a ribbon mic at a porthole. The ribbon microphone didn't even make it through the mic check.
Really?! Someone was that ignorant?!

I'm a mixed bag...I prefer a full reso head. I just switched from external mic to a Kelly Shu. I don't have issues with the dual membrane resonance. I run the cable through the tom mount.

I do not play live or with amplified musicians, I only use it in a studio setting and it's fine.

A good short boom mic stand and a Shu are pretty close in price.

Always is dependent on personal preference.
__________________
Ludwig Drums; TaylorMade Golf Clubs
http://www.youtube.com/zombie13studio
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-31-2011, 03:52 AM
IDDrummer's Avatar
IDDrummer IDDrummer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: I-Dee-Ho
Posts: 3,361
Default Re: Kick mic: in or out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiotech View Post
I don't believe in placing a microphone inside of the bass drum as long as it has it's resonant head on. There are just too many air turbulence inside of a two headed bass drum. Add to this the proximity effect of a cardioid microphone and the mud starts to evolve. Also putting a microphone inside of a drum is like turning the heads of the drum into giant diaphragms that react with anything in close proximity to the kit. This includes the bass, guitar and keyboard parasitic oscillations. I've proven this many, many times to artists and their producers in the studio. If you want a full bodied sound from a bass drum, mic it from the front head. If you want more attack, point either a short shotgun mic or cardioid at the batter head where the beater hits and slightly mix it with the resonant head microphone, but keeping both mics away from the extreme air turbulence. I saw an individual once try to use a ribbon mic at a porthole. The ribbon microphone didn't even make it through the mic check.



Dennis
I'm sure you are quite right, but there are other considerations. For a fairly low budget working band, that has to set up and tear down in a hurry, sometimes in near darkness, for those times when you don't even get a soundcheck, and nobody is a trained audio tech anyway, the internal mount has lots of advantages. In a studio, where getting the absolute best possible sound is the only consideration, maybe it isn't the best choice. But for my application, I find that it works the best for me. There is good consistency, isolation, ease of use, speed of setup/teardown, and really the sound is quite good. I've heard other people sit in and play my kit, and I like the way it sounds through the PA, so that's good enough for me. I can just worry about my playing, lol!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-31-2011, 07:38 AM
audiotech
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Kick mic: in or out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IDDrummer View Post
I'm sure you are quite right, but there are other considerations. For a fairly low budget working band, that has to set up and tear down in a hurry, sometimes in near darkness, for those times when you don't even get a soundcheck, and nobody is a trained audio tech anyway, the internal mount has lots of advantages. In a studio, where getting the absolute best possible sound is the only consideration, maybe it isn't the best choice. But for my application, I find that it works the best for me. There is good consistency, isolation, ease of use, speed of setup/teardown, and really the sound is quite good. I've heard other people sit in and play my kit, and I like the way it sounds through the PA, so that's good enough for me. I can just worry about my playing, lol!
There is nothing wrong with either way as long as your way is good enough for you and my way I get to keep my jobs, lol. Most talent and the producers they hire want the absolute best sound for a particular piece of music they're tracking. That's part of my job as session engineer to get the sound out of their craniums and either lay it to tape or hard drive. I was going to say heads instead of cranium, but anyways. It's like anything else we do, we all need six ways to a dozen in case something doesn't quite work. I call it walking and chewing gum at the same time.

Dennis
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-31-2011, 07:58 AM
IDDrummer's Avatar
IDDrummer IDDrummer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: I-Dee-Ho
Posts: 3,361
Default Re: Kick mic: in or out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiotech View Post
There is nothing wrong with either way as long as your way is good enough for you and my way I get to keep my jobs, lol. Most talent and the producers they hire want the absolute best sound for a particular piece of music they're tracking. That's part of my job as session engineer to get the sound out of their craniums and either lay it to tape or hard drive. I was going to say heads instead of cranium, but anyways. It's like anything else we do, we all need six ways to a dozen in case something doesn't quite work. I call it walking and chewing gum at the same time.

Dennis
Yeah, I wish I could walk and chew gum better than I do. lol But I do my best. I often wish I had learned more about audio engineering, but it's just never been on the front burner for various reasons. It's nice to have input from people who really know what they are doing in that field!
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-31-2011, 08:32 AM
audiotech
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Kick mic: in or out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IDDrummer View Post
Yeah, I wish I could walk and chew gum better than I do. lol But I do my best. I often wish I had learned more about audio engineering, but it's just never been on the front burner for various reasons. It's nice to have input from people who really know what they are doing in that field!
I stumble a lot too, especially with typing. After I re-read my post, I probably could have said it better. I meant to say that if I was working on my own projects which I do a lot, i wouldn't have to be as critical as I do when working with paying customers breathing down my neck. Yea I lucked out and got many big breaks in the media when I was young. Back then there wasn't the extreme competitiveness like there is today. Today everybody has a recording studio in their computer.

I hope I didn't sound like I think I sounded on my last response. It's no excuse but I usually only have time late at night to type on these boards and sometimes my fingers just don't know what my mind is trying to say, lol. That and I'm just getting old.

Take care.
Dennis
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-31-2011, 04:33 PM
IDDrummer's Avatar
IDDrummer IDDrummer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: I-Dee-Ho
Posts: 3,361
Default Re: Kick mic: in or out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiotech View Post
I stumble a lot too, especially with typing. After I re-read my post, I probably could have said it better. I meant to say that if I was working on my own projects which I do a lot, i wouldn't have to be as critical as I do when working with paying customers breathing down my neck. Yea I lucked out and got many big breaks in the media when I was young. Back then there wasn't the extreme competitiveness like there is today. Today everybody has a recording studio in their computer.

I hope I didn't sound like I think I sounded on my last response. It's no excuse but I usually only have time late at night to type on these boards and sometimes my fingers just don't know what my mind is trying to say, lol. That and I'm just getting old.

Take care.
Dennis
No worries, Dennis. I didn't take any of it in a bad way, if that is what you mean. Just different tools and techniques for different situations.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com