There's nothing new under the sun

[larryace]

So they say, but to me, I found a brand new thing!

Cymbal flams! (using 2 cymbals, not 1)

Duh!

It's just a little detail that sets itself apart sonically.

It works best to my ear when there is a nice difference (like somewhere near 6") between cymbal sizes, hitting the larger cymbal first as the smaller grace note and doing the main note on the smaller cymbal, but however you like them...I think they sound pretty cool...different.

Which led to me experimenting with ideas to get the "ultimate" cymbal sound.
It occurred to me that if 2 cymbals are sonically "ear matched" for decay, and one is selected for attack and crispness, the other selected for richness and body, that work well together, you could really clean up. I'm talking striking them both together, not flamming here.
Again, a decent difference between cymbal sizes seems appropriate to accomplish the goal of getting the best frequencies from a small and large cymbal simultaneously, for the "ultimate" in cymbal tones lol.

But back to the cymbal flams, yea, new trick for this dog, never occured to me before.

Who already uses them? (and don't lie lol) Cause if nobody uses them, I'm officially claiming them right here, right now, as witnessed by the date stamp on this thread.

One of my dreams is to have something like "Bonham Triplets" named after me.
Hinkel Flams would work lol.

The sad thing is, instead of experimenting with them for a few hours, I ran up here and typed this. I'm hopelessly addicted. OK I'm going back now to practice them before my gig tonight...

[keep it simple]

Hand on heart as I type this Larry (I can do that because I'm the original one finger typist, lol), I've done that for years, but typically the other way round. I hit the smaller cymbal first (usually a large splash). Sometimes, I'll even use the open top hat as the first grace note. Probably more often than that, I'll hit two cymbals at the same time. That gives me a big chorus impact. You're right though, it's a cool thing to do in small doses. Because it's cool, & I'm not, you can have the credit. We'll call it a cymbal flace (cross between flam & ace). One tiny problem with that though, I stole it from Mick Tucker at a Sweet gig I went to in 1973! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzGsOTJWImo

[DrumEatDrum]

Steve Smith used the concept quite a bit with Journey.

[Pollyanna]

It was a dark and stormy night as frightened townspeople heard strange and terrifying sounds coming from the mysterious Dr Hinkelstein's laboratory.

Was it an earth tremor? A thunderclap? No, it was a Hinkel Flam, followed by the doctor's maniacal laughter.

"Igor, quit bogarting the j and pass me the 21" Zildjian K while you're at it", he commanded ...

[Bo Eder]

Hey Larry, how 'bout shifting everything you play one quarter note to the right instead?

Oh sorry, Stewart Copeland has already taken that. But shifting everything to the left is virgin territory!

(This was Stewart's advice in a YouTube video)

[braincramp]

I just Googled hinkleflam and there is actually one link that comes up...oh, its this thread..well maybe by this time next year it will make it to wikipedia : )

[madidus]

Another version of this is to do the first hit of the flam on the hihat and the second on a splash. Don't know that who was the first, but this is a very cool little accent. I think I remember hearing Sean Kinney doing this with Alice in Chains.

[Kenny Allyn]

Pretty much as described ...including ear matching the tonal balance, size difference and decay etc:


I have experimented with various strikes using both sticks and even one stick rolling from the 14" to the 19" as there is a slight overlap the 14 being just slightly above and to the right of the 19.

The setup looks like this ...

[GRUNTERSDAD]

It's amazing that all of these people and myself have been using some sort of Hinkel flam all this time and had no idea that it had a name.

[Kenny Allyn]

"Hinkel" huh ...

Charlie Chaplin "The Great Dictator" ... light and fun but complex with serious overtones

[larryace]

Damn! The thread title rings true. I honestly never noticed anyone do them before. Sorry for the waste of time lol
Pol, as usual you're a scream.
Andy, you're too generous, but I want to earn whatever it is that may be named after me, so this doesn't qualify.
I like the hihat splash idea too madidus.
And Kenny is already getting the "ultimate" cymbal sound.
Braincramp, too funny lol.
Yesterday I thought I was a genius. Today, I feel dumber than I was before yesterday.
Humility is a bitter pill.

[keep it simple]

Originally Posted by larryace

Damn! The thread title rings true. I honestly never noticed anyone do them before. Sorry for the waste of time lol
Pol, as usual you're a scream.
Andy, you're too generous, but I want to earn whatever it is that may be named after me, so this doesn't qualify.
I like the hihat splash idea too madidus.
And Kenny is already getting the "ultimate" cymbal sound.
Braincramp, too funny lol.
Yesterday I thought I was a genius. Today, I feel dumber than I was before yesterday.
Humility is a bitter pill.

It's new to you Larry, & that's what matters. Discovery is a personal triumph. Columbus is credited with the discovery of America, but the native Americans might have something to say about that. Didn't stop Columbus living in his halo of glory though.

[Pollyanna]

Originally Posted by larryace

Yesterday I thought I was a genius. Today, I feel dumber than I was before yesterday.
Humility is a bitter pill.

Doktor Hinkelstein, if you kept up lessons with a quality teacher over the years you could have asked him (or her) and probably found out it was a KrupaFlam or something. As many on this site have suggested, those quasi-paternal mentoring relationships seem to be the surest path to success, drawing on the vast stores of knowledge of drummers past.

Personally, I couldn't give a sheet about success and already have a father, so I just enjoy tinkering about in my own dopey way and relate to what you were doing. Andy makes a good point about Columbus. The HinkelFlam might have been done before but none - not the KISFlam, the DEDFlam, BoFlam, MadFlam, GruntFlam - will be quite the same as the HinkelFlam, or each other. Not all discoveries are equally momentous but each has its own nuances and pleasures.

Your thoughts on cymbal chords were interesting. In the old days I'd crash a 17" Meinl and 22" 2oo2 together but that was only in big, over-the-top finales. Usually, I find a single crash overpowering enough and I have enough trouble doing things linearly, so it's not on my radar. It could be useful for you, though, as a born again rocker. I can imagine a splash and a larger cymbal melding together nicely.

BTW, how's that rock group of yours coming along? You haven't been posting much so I'm guessing you guys are gigging lots.

[braincramp]

As for the title of the thread I studied for years off of a great drummer from our area Larry (I think you live in the Philly area?).. he would tell me this all the time.. I would take something in I had never heard before and he would listen to it, smile and say thats a blankety blank then play it... his name is Fred Biondi, he was at the time the drummer for the Philadelphia Jazz Emsemble and a very busy commercial jingle drummer from Chester County. Have not seen him in years..maybe he's a member here?

[larryace]

Yea Pol, the rock band is going strong, we had to replace a bass player and we finally got one so that was holding us back from booking gigs but now we are actively booking. The guitar player in the rock band is VERY possevive of me and when I told him of a date in May I am playing with my Blues band, he said..."Well, try not to let that happen again, we want to book the band a lot"...Now the Blues band is getting some different rooms, and I'm getting more calls to do other things....He's not going to like that and will give me a hard time about it but I can't play with just one group of people.

So things are going well, business is good, It's only January and I have 14 gigs booked so far this year

[Pollyanna]

Geez Larry, talk about busy! Does you ever see your partner?

[keep it simple]

Originally Posted by Pollyanna

Geez Larry, talk about busy! Does you ever see your partner?

Being busy does have it's benefits, lol!

Larry, good to hear of progress, & the guitarist's obviously happy with you. Keep that posessive streak in check though. We're booking gigs again after rolling out guitarist hassles. Nice feeling isn't it! As a total aside, here's one of the new guy's home solo recordings, whatcha think? http://www.myspace.com/andycarney/mu...rings-61190698 Oh man, that drum machine overplays the gig, lol!

[larryace]

Damn Andy, nice track! You did some really interesting stuff there! That's some guitar work too! You just can't keep it too simple in this kind of song. Were those drums programmed or real? I thought they were real but near the end I wasn't so sure...

Pol I see my honey every day, plus she come out to most of the gigs.

[Pollyanna]

Glad you have the multitasking happening, Larry well done! It's not easy.

Andy, yep, that lad can play, as long as he's cool about being on a leash. Seems like Andys are taking over the band ...

[keep it simple]

Originally Posted by larryace

Damn Andy, nice track! You did some really interesting stuff there! That's some guitar work too! You just can't keep it too simple in this kind of song. Were those drums programmed or real? I thought they were real but near the end I wasn't so sure...

You're pulling my string Larry, right? C'mon, that's the busyest drum machine known to man! Nothing to do with me Larry, that's just one of our new guitarist's home recordings. He did those tracks before he joined our band. He played all the parts. Not bad for a bedroom recording huh! Killer guitarist though,

@Pol, Most of his stuff is much more feel melodic based rather than that frantic example. He's very tasteful, so no leash required. & yes, band now has 2 x Andys & 2 x Marks. Very confusing!

Anyhow, sorry for the slight hijack Larry.

[Aeolian]

Back to the multi-crashes. Back in the 70s I picked up this stunt from someone I saw where he came up under the cymbal and then right back down onto it. Really quickly, like a 16th or so. Then I find out that Buddy and others had been doing it for years. Just another take on hitting two crashes. Only in this one, the second hit chokes off the first. Kind of like an old sampler stutter. It still catches some folks off guard. "What was that?".

When doing the Hinkleflam, I tend to like the higher pitched cymbal second. It seems to accent the home base better. But depending on what you have in front of you, I guess it's worth trying all the possibilities. I'm in the midst of reading Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" where he says that there are only five musical notes (Chinese pentatonic scale being all he knew of) but endless possibilities of melodies.