DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > General Discussion

General Discussion General discussion forum for all drum related topics. Use this forum to exchange ideas and information with your fellow drummers.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 12-21-2010, 03:07 AM
aydee aydee is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,316
Default Music Myths

Some interesting perspectives from bassist Jeff Berlin on the great DW Groove v/s technique vs feel dust ups and a few others....



Myth #1: Some musicians don't know how to play with feel. They just regard music as if they were just notes, without phrasing or feel.


Jeff answered: Practically nobody, anywhere in music, just plays notes without some commitment to feel. The people who say this don't know much about music, because everybody wants to play with some kind of feel, to represent a song as they have heard it. Besides, if one regards feel as so important, then why do so many people defend click track recording, potentially one of the stiffest forms of playing you can have. The most widely accepted form of music is almost always one guy with a recording studio recording a track with no live performer and with either a singer or a rapper who overdubs over it. Nobody seems to be bothered by this music and refer to it as music without feeling.


Myth #2: You can learn groove with a metronome or by "feeling" the groove.

Jeff answered: Name me anybody in the top or secondary eschelons of music who can't groove. You practically can't! Only those guys who state that they "know a guy" who plays without a groove can point a finger at someone else saying that their groove is weak. And I question these guys' skill level to point a finger at anybody. Do you know why some guys can't groove? Because they can't play! Period! If you can't groove, you can't play! And if you can groove, you've learned how to play to some degree. Therefore the solution to the fake correction of groove difficulty is to learn how to play better so that the groove will organically become a part of of your musical skills. It happened exactly this way with everybody who can find a pocket in the music.

Myth#3: People who learn academic music play without feel.

Jeff answered: Name me anybody who learned ANYTHING academically and who cannot express what they have learned with some commitment to feeling. I don't know of a single academically trained chef, language speaker, dancer, actor, or anyone else who hasn't figured out how to evolve their academic training into some kind of artful expression of what they were working on. This is one of the biggest myths of all, and it is ruining music for everybody.

...

Last edited by aydee; 12-21-2010 at 05:03 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-21-2010, 03:34 AM
8Mile's Avatar
8Mile 8Mile is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 2,713
Default Re: Music Myths

I think Berlin is going overboard in trying to make a point. I think any musician who has dedicated a lifetime to practicing and learning technique resents the assertion that feel and chops are somehow mutually exclusive. They certainly are not, and that's often the red herring offered up by drummers who possess neither.

That said, Berlin's response to "Myth #2" is pretty silly. You can't name anybody in the top or secondary echelons of music who can't groove? Really? I mean, Carl Palmer is a legendary artist but I've never heard anyone argue that he grooves.

Unfortunately, by making comments like these, I think Berlin only strengthens the argument he's trying to discredit. He comes across as someone who really can't discern what grooves and what doesn't, which is what the "groove critics" have been accusing "technicians" of all along. Ugh.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-21-2010, 05:00 AM
Michael McDanial Michael McDanial is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The Windy City
Posts: 288
Default Re: Music Myths

Well, this kind of falls in under the technique vs. feeling debate. Personally, the people I've seen accusing other musicians with exceptional technique of playing with no feel have pretty much all been people who did not have very good chops themselves, and basically just used it as a put down to make themselves feel better about their own shortcomings.

Being a saxophonist myself, I've never listened to another saxophonist and thought "this guy is just all chops and no feeling". I try and use musicians who are a better than me as an example to inspire me to improve my own skills. I don't find any need to rip on better musicians just to make myself feel better about the fact that I'm nowhere near their technical level. Unfortunately, a lot of people do. After all, who puts in the time to bring their playing to a level of being able to make it as a professional musician, yet plays with no feeling? Obviously, if you've made it to the professional level, you've put in some time on your instrument. So who puts in all that time and yet plays with no passion or feeling? Just doesn't make sense. It's one thing to say "I don't care for this person's playing". Hey, that's fine. I've certainly felt that way about some musicians I've heard. However, the "this guy is all chops and no feeling" accusation is one that I have never made of another musician. Just because I can't feel, or get into what they're playing doesn't mean that they're not feeling what they play. Nor does it mean that others aren't feeling what that person is playing.
__________________
If you cannot tell the difference between a fact and an opinion, then that's your problem, not mine.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-21-2010, 05:08 AM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 2,437
Default Re: Music Myths

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8Mile View Post
red herring
There's the term I was looking for. The "myths" seem pre-formed to be shot down by Berlin. I don't recognize them from the real world. For example:

Myth 1: Usually a player's feel is discussed for its qualities, or for whether it's good or bad. When people say no feel, usually it means bad, not non-existent feel.
Myth 2: I don't know of anyone who seriously advocates learning to groove by just feeling it. And metronome use extremely is widespread and uncontroversial, and its benefits are self-evident. It's a little like screaming about the corrosive efftects of oxygen- no matter how authoritative you are, people are going to look at you funny, because they've been breathing it fine for years. Noted also that his answer is not really responsive.
Myth 3: I don't know what "academic" music is- whoever wrote the myths seems to think it's synonymous with formal or university training, and it isn't.

Berlin is an accomplished musician and teacher, so I take anything he has to say about music seriously, but also with a grain of salt. He's so dogmatic about the metronome thing (and contrary to nearly everyone else) that I have to wonder if there aren't other things at work- ego, maybe? He wouldn't be the first smart person to be a little bit of a crackpot on certain subjects.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-21-2010, 05:37 AM
aydee aydee is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,316
Default Re: Music Myths

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post

Berlin is an accomplished musician and teacher, so I take anything he has to say about music seriously, but also with a grain of salt. He's so dogmatic about the metronome thing (and contrary to nearly everyone else) that I have to wonder if there aren't other things at work- ego, maybe? He wouldn't be the first smart person to be a little bit of a crackpot on certain subjects.
( Off his FB page; ) Brandford Marsalis -

"What I’ve learned from my students is that students today are completely full of shit! That is what I’ve learned from my students! (Is that) much like the generation before them the only thing they’re really interested in is you telling them how right they are and how good they are!

That is the same mentality that basically forces Harvard to give out B’s to people that don’t deserve them, out of the fear that they’ll go to other schools that will give them B’s, and those schools will make the money. We live in a country that seems to be in this massive state of delusion where the idea of what you are is more important that you actually being that. And it actually works as long as everybody’s winking at the same time.

Then if one person stops winking, you just beat the crap out of that person and then they either start winking or they go somewhere else. Yeah, my students, all they want to hear is how good they are and how talented they are. Most of them aren't really willing to work to the degree to live up to that!
"

..

Last edited by aydee; 12-21-2010 at 07:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-21-2010, 05:55 AM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 2,437
Default Re: Music Myths

Quote:
Originally Posted by aydee View Post
"What I’ve learned from my students is that students today are completely full of shit!"
Well, I kind of agree with that! :-)

When it comes to college level jazz students, anyway. The Marsalises are pretty FOS themselves, but they're also right about a lot of things- like with JB, you can't just dismiss them. One thing Wynton said about sound being as important as ideas has stuck with me for years.

Last edited by toddbishop; 12-21-2010 at 06:03 AM. Reason: clarity
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-21-2010, 06:10 AM
caddywumpus's Avatar
caddywumpus caddywumpus is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Portland, OR USA
Posts: 5,589
Default Re: Music Myths

I'll take a second to disagree...coming from the university-trained standpoint, I'll vouch for the fact that you can learn a whole bunch of stuff academically, and not be able to apply it musically/with expression/with "feel". That was my story, kinda. I went into college with a great sense of feel, but no technique. I came out of college with a bunch of technique, but not much feel. It took a couple of years to reconcile the two. Now, I'm an unstoppable force, but there was that period of a couple of years where I got scared that I'd never be able to hold a satisfying groove ever again...
__________________
Be vewwy quiet, I'm hunting Lawwy

My kit: http://drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44195
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-21-2010, 06:14 AM
aydee aydee is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,316
Default Re: Music Myths

...


More from Jeff:

If there is blame, I blame the musicians who have a chance to insist to their students that they learn musical content, that they don't confuse performing with learning (which is why I dismiss groove classes, string crossing exercises, chops building exercises and anything in academics which includes the words "rock education", "rock classes" things like this.

It is the fault of all the players who don't insist that their students learn music, probably because the player/teachers don't believe in musical academics or else they would teach it.

....

I say, I don't need to make a living. I need to learn how to play. Sometimes that "making a living" expression supersedes learning how to play because some players try to work without actually knowing how to play well enough to do it.

The workingest musicians anywhere are the guys who can fullfill the needs of the people who call them. THIS is the pinnacle of working ability, to provide what is asked of you to provide. Why? Because most people need the phone to ring before they will earn a buck. But few people fill this need because they can't play. So the priority is to learn how and let the work part come when it is time to work. See my point?

...

I can try to cut through the B.S. and simply tell people to learn music. But it actually amuses me how much some people are against it. I don't know if I am smart enough to ever figure that one out.

...

Last edited by aydee; 12-21-2010 at 07:05 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-21-2010, 06:37 AM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 10,000
Default Re: Music Myths

Technique vs feel or technique vs groove all over again ... yeah, maybe it's been too long since we had one of these blood baths heeheehee

Weighing up the relative merits of aspects of music-making in forums is a recipe for misrepresentation and misunderstanding. The romantics imply that the pragmatists are soulless and the pragmatists suggest that the romantics are compensating for technical shortfalls.

It's not miles from science vs spirituality ... are all scientists devoid of feeling to the point of being incapable of love and are all spiritualists so devoid of science that they can't tie their own shoelaces? As often as not, each has a point - if overplayed. The subtlety and maturity needed to parse the issues without some misrepresentation and underestimation of the others' POV on a web forum is maybe not possible.

Even Jeff B's comments suggest that he's doing some misrepresentation but the quotes don't have context with other qualifying things he may have said on or off the record. For all we know, someone might have been trash talking to him the day before.

To me, it's a matter of focus. Nothing is the same. Yes, some play with more technique than feel and vice versa. Virgil Donati vs Rick Marotta anyone? They clearly have different focuses (foci?) and priorities. To suggest that all high level technicians have the same feel is as silly as saying all homespun players have the same technique. Fact is, like snowflakes, everyone has different levels and types of technique and feel. We instinctively gravitate to those who touch us most.

Personally, I'm way keen on focusing on feel despite (because of?) limited technique. It's my choice and always been my choice and the way I enjoy playing. It's not an approach that's conducive to being a pro, but it works out because I always struggled with the feral nature of the music biz anyway. You gotta be tough as well as talented and hardworking.

When I started out, 90% of the kids in my area started garage-style, playing along with Deep Purple and Sabbath records. Each naturally gravitated to their own thing. Some were speed demons. I couldn't play as fast, no matter how I tried. Some were solid as a rock. I wasn't one of them either. Some were known for their feel, and that was where I seemed to fit ... it was always the thing people commented on with my playing.

So we just got known for what we naturally did best in the eyes of our musical peers. Some went on to forge musical careers, some didn't, but most kept playing in bands. The only kid I knew who'd been trained from scratch was a keys player (and friend) who lived two doors from me. He was always playing the organ at home (ahem) and obviously loved it, and he went on to be a pro - as a young adult, anyway. No idea what he did once the kids came along.

However, despite being a "feel player" I love Cobham for his brilliance and intensity, Gadd for his everything, and Charlie Watts for his unassuming but supportive presence (aka feel). Better? Worse? I know who has more chops but I don't mind.

And I don't mind what Jeff B says because his playing gave me a lot of pleasure on Bruford's debut album. Fantastic bassist. All he's really saying is, if you don't have the chops you can't dis players who do have the chops for lacking feel. I agree, but you can still prefer other players because, just like my old garage pals and me, we naturally gravitate to whatever music makes us feel good. That certainly doesn't make the less sophisticated music better or even comparable on many levels, but it does make the music ours.

Sorry for the long post but you can't easily really parse this stuff with just a few words.
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-21-2010, 06:52 AM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 2,437
Default Re: Music Myths

Aydee, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on all of this. Maybe we're just missing context, but it's hard to understand what he's getting at without knowing what he means by the "learn music" phrase he keeps using. It's clear that he thinks many people studying music are not learning it, and maybe he's right, but I wish he would say what the difference is.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-21-2010, 07:13 AM
aydee aydee is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,316
Default Re: Music Myths

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
Aydee, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on all of this. Maybe we're just missing context, but it's hard to understand what he's getting at without knowing what he means by the "learn music" phrase he keeps using. It's clear that he thinks many people studying music are not learning it, and maybe he's right, but I wish he would say what the difference is.
Todd, this is the transcript of an open FB chat with him. ( ... Dont want anybody to think this is a Wikileak!!.. )
Like an assumption made earlier in the thread, Jeff is a master payer and master educater who seems to have some very pretty strong and uncharitable views on a lot of music education from both sides- the teacher's and the student's.

Each is low balling the other is what he seems to be getting at. The 'Just teach me what I'm asking you to teach me, and then get out of my way' approach is what he seems to be railing against. By learning music, I assume he means holistically and not piecemeal lessons in how to apply it practcially. To study it formally and study it in depth and not as in how to play this or how to play that..

This is a quote that should clarify his perspective -- "My intent is not to insult or look down on anybody (some see me as doing this). My intention is to wize up the majority of players who don't know that they are being sold a shabby education if practicing musical content isn't the center of their lessons.
Teachers confuse performance with learning how to play and because of this, music, and maybe most players everywhere are wandering around in the dark. I can fix this, but I truly feel that most people are happier not knowing about music than knowing about it. I wish that it were otherwize."





...

Last edited by aydee; 12-21-2010 at 07:30 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-21-2010, 08:00 AM
Skitch's Avatar
Skitch Skitch is offline
Pioneer Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Nashville
Posts: 2,751
Default Re: Music Myths

To quote Steve Smith in a Modern Drummer article in 1993, music has four aspects:

Emotional
Technical
Spiritual
Intellectual

To limit a discussion of music to the groove vs technique is really misguided.


Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com
http://www.patentcoachmike.com
http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.facebook.com/mike.mccraw
http://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemccraw
http://twitter.com/mikemccraw
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-21-2010, 08:41 AM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 2,437
Default Re: Music Myths

Quote:
Originally Posted by aydee View Post
Each is low balling the other is what he seems to be getting at. The 'Just teach me what I'm asking you to teach me, and then get out of my way' approach is what he seems to be railing against. By learning music, I assume he means holistically and not piecemeal lessons in how to apply it practcially. To study it formally and study it in depth and not as in how to play this or how to play that..
Thanks, that's very helpful- teaching at MI he probably has to deal with the results of that approach a lot. I have the impression they get a very mixed bag of students there.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-21-2010, 03:14 PM
mattsmith's Avatar
mattsmith mattsmith is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Nashville
Posts: 1,911
Default Re: Music Myths

I don't think there really is the volatility here I remember from the technique vs. feel thread. In fact one of the things I'm getting from this is that Berlin makes what I believe is the truly accurate assumption that in an attempt to learn as much book sense as is out there, many people are not encouraged to feel music, or for that matter even listen to the necessary amount of music to be a successful and versatile player capable of working for the long haul.

What's really to argue there? It's true.

It's just that Berlin presents his assertions in a kind of ham fisted way that suggests that probably in some long ago time, a music professor and/or institution stole his lunch money and gave him a negative experience.

There is also the issue that due to the existing economic climate fewer great players become music majors, requiring even the upper middle tier to take players they wouldn't have accepted 10 years ago. And trust me when I tell you that some of these guys will never be able to play without an insane reinforcement of technical issues they had never initiated in the first place. In those scenarios, if the studio teacher can actually scrap up enough material to turn someone into a fair to middling band director then mission accomplished. Still to infer that the whole phenomenon is the fault of academics is naive and silly.

But you know I hear the old guys say it all the time when they describe how much listening they did at my age and how so many of my colleagues do little or nothing to grasp any music past the 3-4 things they liked already. And I think there's a lot of truth to that. I also think it's why you see so many people on drum forums categorizing what kind of drummer they are and how this kind of a drummer does this, while drummer genre B guys do something else and why there can be a stupid and frankly uneducated feel vs. technique mindset to begin with.

I'm just not sure Berlin has taken it that far, because it's been my experience to notice that the guys who truly believe you have to pick can't play at all, and only talk all that garbage to save face.
__________________
I endorse Zildjian sticks because I like them.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-21-2010, 04:39 PM
druid's Avatar
druid druid is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 626
Default Re: Music Myths

I was going to post something ....but I realize jeff Berlin probably expressed exactly what I was going to say...

he NAILS it here.

this argument is so tired.

In my expereince the only guys who knock having chops or academic approaches are the same ones who have no chops and don't want to be bothered with learning.

Just my .02
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-21-2010, 05:14 PM
Deltadrummer's Avatar
Deltadrummer Deltadrummer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 2,685
Default Re: Music Myths

I think Todd makes some really good points. Jeff has a bit of a chip on his shoulder because he feels today's music world is being dominated by no talents and thinks that rap has no musical value. It is a tired argument.and he's probably just trying to create controversy and interest for his new album. Good for him. But he's so sure he's right, too sure to realize when he is wrong.

Everybody has a feel. You may like it you may not. Some people have an overly technical feel. I remember what John Riley said on that infamous thread and I keep on coming back to it. The market defines what good feel is, and by the market I think he means the community of musicians who hire certain musicians because of the way they play, not like the top ten. There's not even any musicians on those tunes. there is such a thing as good time, playing in time and playing musically and those things can be measured. It's all so scientific. :)

I think that the biggest myth is that metronome practice destroys feel. That's not a myth. That is ignorance, and I've talked to several of the greatest feel drummers out there, including the two most recorded, and they have all said they worked with a metronome and young drummers should as well. Any one whose works with one knows how valuable it is and especially how valuable it is to developing good groove. I hope my students are reading this.

Matt's point about blaming academics as silly is also a good point. How many academically trained musicians are out there playing in bands? You get some of these players from Berkelee or Musicians Institute; but really how many unis are creating musicians for the top twenty?
__________________
Ken Marino Drum Teacher "It's not worth keeping score. You win some. You lose some, you let it go"
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-21-2010, 05:46 PM
Skitch's Avatar
Skitch Skitch is offline
Pioneer Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Nashville
Posts: 2,751
Default Re: Music Myths

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattsmith View Post

It's just that Berlin presents his assertions in a kind of ham fisted way that suggests that probably in some long ago time, a music professor and/or institution stole his lunch money and gave him a negative experience.

There is also the issue that due to the existing economic climate fewer great players become music majors, requiring even the upper middle tier to take players they wouldn't have accepted 10 years ago. And trust me when I tell you that some of these guys will never be able to play without an insane reinforcement of technical issues they had never initiated in the first place. In those scenarios, if the studio teacher can actually scrap up enough material to turn someone into a fair to middling band director then mission accomplished. Still to infer that the whole phenomenon is the fault of academics is naive and silly.

But you know I hear the old guys say it all the time when they describe how much listening they did at my age and how so many of my colleagues do little or nothing to grasp any music past the 3-4 things they liked already. And I think there's a lot of truth to that. I also think it's why you see so many people on drum forums categorizing what kind of drummer they are and how this kind of a drummer does this, while drummer genre B guys do something else and why there can be a stupid and frankly uneducated feel vs. technique mindset to begin with.
Several great points made here - the "degree" factory which many universites have become and then some of the "fame" schools which have poped up for the sole purpose of cashing in on parents' dreams of seeing their children become rockstars to get validity for their short existence on this planet. While technique and chops are great, at some point the student must go out and get some dirt on his playing. I think that the whole technique vs feel argument is silly; you have to have abalance of both and a great awareness to know when either one is more important. I sometimes observe that the whole feel is looked down upon by the Jazz crowd as "They are just a bunch of bashers". The feel crowd replies back that the technique crowd is "A bunch of institute snobs with no sense of emotion."

On the flip side or B side, I do tire of the 20 year old coming up to me and asking "Do I need to learn about to music to play music?" This is really the question of "Do you know of a shortcut to wealth and fame through music?" Yes - I do - become an entertainment attorney.


There are far too many players who debunk all of this - Steve Smith, Vinnie Colaiuta, Gary Novak to name three. Or even Steve Gadd



The sentence about the listening is a great point as I have come across the mindset of "I don't know any songs or music written and recorded after 1962" from other musicians - not drummers mind you. The best way that I can describe what a college education is for is to teach yourself how to go and and educate yourself and find the answers.


Case in point - I have a computer science degree. But most of the universities teach very basic courses in programming languages, writting programs which have been written since the 1950s and aren't going to be recoded anytime soon.


Ladies and gentlemen, I see it as a sign of the times as this shortcut to fame and wealth isn't only in the music area - it's everywhere. And there is no passion when the only goal is those two objectives.



Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com
http://www.patentcoachmike.com
http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.facebook.com/mike.mccraw
http://www.linkedin.com/in/mikemccraw
http://twitter.com/mikemccraw
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-21-2010, 06:13 PM
Deltadrummer's Avatar
Deltadrummer Deltadrummer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 2,685
Default Re: Music Myths

I wanted to add another thought here and that is that if you look at three musical genres, classical music, rock music and rap, they relate to three different social strata. The classical music is consumed by the upper class, who procured it in Europe over 400 years and was funded by the rich families of Boston and NY in 19th and 20th century America. Rock music was the music of the baby boomers and it related to working class kids of the 1950, 60, 70s and 80s As these kids became more educated you had progressive rock and alt rock develop on college campuses. Rap relates to the poor and working class poor throughout the world where it is seen as a music of rebellion and resistance. it's an empowerment movement. So rap is most popular because it has a larger audience than classical. Why aren't we asking why there are so many poor people in the world to begin with rather than complaining that they don't listen to good music, which is the music, of course, we would prefer they listen to?
__________________
Ken Marino Drum Teacher "It's not worth keeping score. You win some. You lose some, you let it go"
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-21-2010, 06:26 PM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 7,757
Default Re: Music Myths

To point #1 - I don't know. I've heard some recordings of some name players that were pretty devoid of groove. But groove is also a subjective term.

#2 - Not to disagree, but Jeff says "Name me anybody in the top or secondary echelons of music who can't groove." Assuming this is 100% true, it doesn't debunk the myth per se. Myths are applied universally across all levels, not just the upper levels. His reply implies that HE believe the myth is indeed true as long as one isn't an upper echelon player. Which probably wasn't his point. It's just a poorly worded statement.

#3 resonates with me. Way back before the internet was invented, I wanted to go to PIT. And I heard a lot of comments of "they make everyone sound the same" "people who there are just mechanical and lose all their feel" and other such non-sense. But the the negative feelings from people were absurdly strong. Everyone I went to school with got told the same sort of things.

To the point that after I graduated, I wouldn't tell people I had gone there for the longest time.

On of my classmates is now a huge name band, and I noticed he doesn't mention he was there anywhere on his website, player bio, or in interviews.

So, while it may be a total myth, I've found it's widely believed, despite all the evidence against it.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-21-2010, 08:00 PM
Ethan01's Avatar
Ethan01 Ethan01 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 358
Default Re: Music Myths

The Black Keys - Brothers

No click, critically acclaimed album from 2010.
__________________
My kit pics
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 12-21-2010, 08:24 PM
Michael McDanial Michael McDanial is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The Windy City
Posts: 288
Default Re: Music Myths

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
Technique vs feel or technique vs groove all over again ... yeah, maybe it's been too long since we had one of these blood baths heeheehee
Lol. Didn't realize there was a knock-down, drag-out debate on that before. We've had the same topic on the sax forum where I'm a member, and it was a very civil debate.
__________________
If you cannot tell the difference between a fact and an opinion, then that's your problem, not mine.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12-21-2010, 08:57 PM
Average Average is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 475
Default Re: Music Myths

Man he really nails it. It is easier to claim genius in the arts (despite lacking it) because when called on the no-talent thing, people just say "its all subjective" or - "player X isn't a technically accomplished player, but he/she plays exactly what the music calls for." How many times have we seen that play out on this forum? Its a lot different trying to claim ability in a field where the ability can be concretely measured. Here is my question, if there is no such thing as a better drummer or better guitarist etc, then how do I make a decision when hiring someone new? I'll give you a hint - when I have money to make or lose based on a decision - all that PC bullcrap goes out the window.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aydee View Post
( Off his FB page; ) Brandford Marsalis -

"What Iíve learned from my students is that students today are completely full of shit! That is what Iíve learned from my students! (Is that) much like the generation before them the only thing theyíre really interested in is you telling them how right they are and how good they are!

That is the same mentality that basically forces Harvard to give out Bís to people that donít deserve them, out of the fear that theyíll go to other schools that will give them Bís, and those schools will make the money. We live in a country that seems to be in this massive state of delusion where the idea of what you are is more important that you actually being that. And it actually works as long as everybodyís winking at the same time.

Then if one person stops winking, you just beat the crap out of that person and then they either start winking or they go somewhere else. Yeah, my students, all they want to hear is how good they are and how talented they are. Most of them aren't really willing to work to the degree to live up to that!
"

..
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12-21-2010, 10:27 PM
Michael McDanial Michael McDanial is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The Windy City
Posts: 288
Default Re: Music Myths

Quote:
Originally Posted by Average View Post
Man he really nails it. It is easier to claim genius in the arts (despite lacking it) because when called on the no-talent thing, people just say "its all subjective" or - "player X isn't a technically accomplished player, but he/she plays exactly what the music calls for." How many times have we seen that play out on this forum? Its a lot different trying to claim ability in a field where the ability can be concretely measured. Here is my question, if there is no such thing as a better drummer or better guitarist etc, then how do I make a decision when hiring someone new? I'll give you a hint - when I have money to make or lose based on a decision - all that PC bullcrap goes out the window.
Great post Average. Not only is there a lot of truth in Brandon's statement, but your point about not being able to say that one musician is better than another is spot-on. This whole "you can't use the word "better" because it's all subjective" thing really needs to go. What's so bad about it? Are we that thin-skinned that we can't deal with saying one musician is better than another simply because somebody might get offended?

Also, as you said, if no musician is better than another, how do you decide on hiring a musician when hiring a new band member? Just take the first person that comes due to the "it's all subjective" view. Maybe we should just abolish tryouts all together because according the the "it's all subjective view" no musician is better than another, and if you chose not to hire the first person that tried out it might hurt their feelings.

What if I started in a band where we were pretty much all on the same skill level at the beginning, but my band mates really worked hard to improve their playing, while I on the other hand, put in little practice time and improved very little, and I'm now struggling to keep up? Should the band be able to fire me because I don't have the dedication to improve my skills to their level? I sure think they should be able to do so.

I'm also tired of this crap about "let's not use the word "better" and just enjoy the music". So if two people have a debate about two musicians on who they think is the better musician of the two, then they're not enjoying the music? That's just ridiculous.

This PC "can't say this or that because it might offend somebody" crap really needs to go. Some people just need to grow a thicker skin.

This is a problem in our society in general that started with the self-esteem movement. This "everybody makes the team" crap has to stop. Sorry, but that's not reality. If you don't make the team, use that as a motivation to practice harder and make the team next year. I suppose when people are adults nobody should get a raise at work unless everybody gets a raise. That's the mentality that we're bringing our kids up with. This idea that it's wrong to reward only certain people, even though they worked harder/did better than the others, is not only ridiculous, but unrealistic.

As I've said in posts in previous threads, I could use the "it's all subjective" view as a reason to say that I'm just as good of a saxophonist as Sonny Rollins, if I wanted to live in this PC fantasy world to protect a fragile ego. Of course, the reality of the situation is that I'm not as a good as him and I'd be a complete fool to think otherwise.
__________________
If you cannot tell the difference between a fact and an opinion, then that's your problem, not mine.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 12-22-2010, 12:03 AM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 2,437
Default Re: Music Myths

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael McDanial View Post
Great post Average. Not only is there a lot of truth in Brandon's statement, but your point about not being able to say that one musician is better than another is spot-on. This whole "you can't use the word "better" because it's all subjective" thing really needs to go. What's so bad about it? Are we that thin-skinned that we can't deal with saying one musician is better than another simply because somebody might get offended?

Also, as you said, if no musician is better than another, how do you decide on hiring a musician when hiring a new band member? Just take the first person that comes due to the "it's all subjective" view. Maybe we should just abolish tryouts all together because according the the "it's all subjective view" no musician is better than another, and if you chose not to hire the first person that tried out it might hurt their feelings.

What if I started in a band where we were pretty much all on the same skill level at the beginning, but my band mates really worked hard to improve their playing, while I on the other hand, put in little practice time and improved very little, and I'm now struggling to keep up? Should the band be able to fire me because I don't have the dedication to improve my skills to their level? I sure think they should be able to do so.

I'm also tired of this crap about "let's not use the word "better" and just enjoy the music". So if two people have a debate about two musicians on who they think is the better musician of the two, then they're not enjoying the music? That's just ridiculous.

This PC "can't say this or that because it might offend somebody" crap really needs to go. Some people just need to grow a thicker skin.

This is a problem in our society in general that started with the self-esteem movement. This "everybody makes the team" crap has to stop. Sorry, but that's not reality. If you don't make the team, use that as a motivation to practice harder and make the team next year. I suppose when people are adults nobody should get a raise at work unless everybody gets a raise. That's the mentality that we're bringing our kids up with. This idea that it's wrong to reward only certain people, even though they worked harder/did better than the others, is not only ridiculous, but unrealistic.
I have several problems with this:
- The entire point of subjectivity is that you make personal judgments, not that you make no judgments at all.
- I've never actually heard the "it's all subjective" argument made by anyone knowledgeable- it always seems to come from ignorant people who can't deal with the fact that someone might know more than them. It's not any kind of establishment/PC position that I've ever been exposed to.
- I don't recognize this "self-esteem"/"everybody makes the team" movement from real life- and I went to a hippie school in the biggest hippie town in America in the 1970's. I've heard a lot about it on right-wing radio however, almost like it's a made-up bogeyman.
- Avoiding saying offensive things is not PC, it's just being a gentleman. But I don't think teachers need to coddle students' feelings, and I have not met many teachers who do.
- I think you're misinterpreting what (Branford) Marsalis said- I don't believe he is responding to so-called political correctness. He appears to be complaining that over-privileged (that's my interpretation) students are basically refusing serious instruction, and schools are degrading their standards not in the name of PC, but in competing for those students.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 12-22-2010, 12:54 AM
Average Average is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 475
Default Re: Music Myths

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
I have several problems with this:
- The entire point of subjectivity is that you make personal judgments, not that you make no judgments at all.
- I've never actually heard the "it's all subjective" argument made by anyone knowledgeable- it always seems to come from ignorant people who can't deal with the fact that someone might know more than them. It's not any kind of establishment/PC position that I've ever been exposed to.
I don't know how long you've been around this particular forum, but the argument seems to be - everything is subjective, its just your personal taste/judgment and all judgments/personal tastes are equal. The whole argument here has been that no one's opinion is any more valid than any one else's, regardless of ability, success etc. Therefore, there is no such thing as a 'better' drummer, which of course, is BS.

You said you went to school in the 1970's. The "self esteem" movement happened in the late 80's and 90's and continues today. It is real. I can attest to it from personal experience and from the experience of my wife, who was a music teacher in both the Chicago and Kansas City public schools. Its effects are being seen in an entire generation of idiots who can't think and can't do a project without it being a 'group effort.' The intended result was to remove individual effort and individual reward from the concept of achievement. They have largely been successful and the thinking is pervasive. The other point BM was making was - if someone stops winking, everyone jumps on them. Witness this phenomenon on MULTIPLE F'ING threads on drummerworld. It happens OVER and OVER and OVER again.

Quote:
-
- Avoiding saying offensive things is not PC, it's just being a gentleman. But I don't think teachers need to coddle students' feelings, and I have not met many teachers who do.
The problem is that what is considered 'offensive' has been redefined by a bunch of no-nothing twits. It is offensive to think outside of the box. It is offensive to say that there is such a thing as a better drummer. The whole concept of individual achievement is supposed to be a no-no now, so saying that one person is better at a given task than another is offensive. Remember, there is no I in t-e-a-m.

Here is the other thing - part of the self-esteem indoctrination training that we received in school was that you had to give someone a 'warm-fuzzy' (compliment) and that was supposed to make the feel good and have self esteem. It wasn't supposed to be something that they earned, just something arbitrary that you would pick out to say. "I love the way your shoe laces are tied today."
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 12-22-2010, 01:39 AM
Michael McDanial Michael McDanial is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The Windy City
Posts: 288
Default Re: Music Myths

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
I have several problems with this:
- The entire point of subjectivity is that you make personal judgments, not that you make no judgments at all.
True, but I'm not arguing that. What I am arguing is that I don't like the view that no musician is better than another with the defense of an "it's all subjective" argument. Some musicians ARE better than others. Professional musicians that I go and see at clubs around Chicago ARE better than me. Of course, that doesn't mean that I can't one day reach their level, but to kid myself into thinking that I am on their level due to subjectivity would be foolish on my part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
- I've never actually heard the "it's all subjective" argument made by anyone knowledgeable- it always seems to come from ignorant people who can't deal with the fact that someone might know more than them. It's not any kind of establishment/PC position that I've ever been exposed to.
Well, I've certainly seen it made on here quite a bit. Just look at the Ginger Baker thread from a while back and you'll see plenty of it. There were two quotes in that thread that I highly agree with:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattsmith View Post
I've talked to a lot of older musicians about this better is all subjective thing, and they just look at me like I'm nuts. One of them told me How do I hire the better drummer when I can't tell what better is?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Average View Post
Sometimes I log on here and wonder if I am living/playing in some alternate universe where there actually IS a difference between a 6 year old drummer after his first lesson and a seasoned player with 33 years of experience. Clearly, reality must be wrong.
Clearly, I am not the only person that has seen this on here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
- I don't recognize this "self-esteem"/"everybody makes the team" movement from real life- and I went to a hippie school in the biggest hippie town in America in the 1970's. I've heard a lot about it on right-wing radio however, almost like it's a made-up bogeyman.
I can tell you right now I'm probably the farthest thing from right wing. However, from my own experiences a lot of younger kids do have an attitude that they always deserve a reward for something. I'm a teacher myself, and I see it all the time. Thing is, it's not the kids' fault, it's the parents' fault. I've especially seen this from other special ed. teachers. The kids who did their reading at home for the month for the Book It program would get ice cream as a reward. One teacher would always give all the kids ice cream arguing that it wasn't fair. Uh, yeah it is fair because they did the work. So the message they're sending to the kids who didn't do the work is that they can not do the work and still get rewarded. Then the kids who did do the work see this and say to themselves "why should I do the work when they did nothing and still got rewarded?" They feel sorry for the kids and that's the worst possible thing you can do, because when they get out in the real world nobody is going to feel sorry for them, and reality is going to smack them down hard.

This has nothing to do with political views. You're experiences are obviously different than mine, therefor we have differing opinions. Nothing wrong with that. I base my opinion on my experiences, so I'm not going to change it because I have seen it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
Avoiding saying offensive things is not PC, it's just being a gentleman. But I don't think teachers need to coddle students' feelings, and I have not met many teachers who do.
Well, I have. Especially in special ed. The above is just one example. But saying that people shouldn't use the word "better" is different. So anybody who says that one musician is better than another is not being a gentleman? Sorry, but I don't agree with that at all. If somebody finds it offensive when somebody says that this musician is better than that musician, then they just need to grow a thicker skin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
- I think you're misinterpreting what (Branford) Marsalis said- I don't believe he is responding to so-called political correctness. He appears to be complaining that over-privileged (that's my interpretation) students are basically refusing serious instruction, and schools are degrading their standards not in the name of PC, but in competing for those students.
He didn't specify that so I guess that's open to interpretation, but even if your interpretation is correct, I don't think that the attitudes of the students he talks about simply applies to over-privileged kids, because I've seen it a lot with kids from middle and working class families as well. Kids who can't handle any kind of negative criticism and expect to be praised all the time. To say that only over-privileged kids act that way is not true.

Granted, it's not in the name of PC, but the fact is that a lot of kids nowadays are brought up with the "nothing but praise" attitude, and it doesn't just apply to the upper class. Again, parents are to blame for that, not kids.
__________________
If you cannot tell the difference between a fact and an opinion, then that's your problem, not mine.

Last edited by Michael McDanial; 12-22-2010 at 02:30 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 12-22-2010, 01:57 AM
Deltadrummer's Avatar
Deltadrummer Deltadrummer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 2,685
Default Re: Music Myths

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael McDanial View Post
True, but I'm not arguing that. What I am arguing is that I don't like the view that no musician is better than another with the defense of an "it's all subjective" argument. Some musicians ARE better than others. Professional musicians that I go and see at clubs around Chicago ARE better than me. Of course, that doesn't mean that I can't one day reach their level, but to kid myself into thinking that I am on their level due to subjectivity would be foolish on my part.
The one thing here about Jeff is that he is so fu'en the real deal. You talk about a guy who is a player, who has honed and owned his craft. He has one of the most distinctive sounds, grooves and techniques. He along with a few others, really defined this instrument. I think that such talent is a detriment as well because your sound is so unique and your language so particular you may not be the best all around guy for the job.
__________________
Ken Marino Drum Teacher "It's not worth keeping score. You win some. You lose some, you let it go"
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 12-22-2010, 02:02 AM
8Mile's Avatar
8Mile 8Mile is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 2,713
Default Re: Music Myths

I dunno, guys. I get the point that there are distinctions between levels of proficiency amongst musicians. And yeah, I think a lot of that is objectively measurable. But I can't dismiss the reality that subjectivity is a huge part of evaluating music and, by proxy, musicians. How do you hire the better drummer? By hiring the one you like better. Just know that doesn't necessarily mean it's the same drummer someone else will like better. If all of this was so objective, we'd all list the same top 10 drummers. And clearly, we don't.

Music isn't a hard science. It's just not. We have different tastes. Some of the music I consider beautiful and sublime sounds like noise to someone else. And vice versa. I think the frustration over this fact is what drives people who have dedicated their lives to an art form like music so crazy. It really can be frustrating.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 12-22-2010, 02:07 AM
Deltadrummer's Avatar
Deltadrummer Deltadrummer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 2,685
Default Re: Music Myths

I'll take this one.

Even though you may prefer one player over the other, you would still recognize that the five guys who auditioned for the job had merit because that is objectively observable. You can discuss those merits with the other guys in your band who are doing the auditioning. The guy who came in and didn't know squat, he would stick out like a sore thumb.
__________________
Ken Marino Drum Teacher "It's not worth keeping score. You win some. You lose some, you let it go"
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 12-22-2010, 02:10 AM
8Mile's Avatar
8Mile 8Mile is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 2,713
Default Re: Music Myths

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
I'll take this one.

Even though you may prefer one player over the other, you would still recognize that the five guys who auditioned for the job had merit because that is objectively observable. You can discuss those merits with the other guys in your band who are doing the auditioning. The guy who came in and didn't know squat, he would stick out like a sore thumb.
Okay, I'm good with that. And maybe nobody was saying anything more than that. If not, then no argument from me.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 12-22-2010, 02:15 AM
Average Average is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 475
Default Re: Music Myths

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
I'll take this one.

Even though you may prefer one player over the other, you would still recognize that the five guys who auditioned for the job had merit because that is objectively observable. You can discuss those merits with the other guys in your band who are doing the auditioning. The guy who came in and didn't know squat, he would stick out like a sore thumb.
But what if one person in the world (his mother) thinks that the 6 year old who just auditioned for my band is the greatest drummer who ever lived? Remember -

Quote:
Just know that doesn't necessarily mean it's the same drummer someone else will like better. If all of this was so objective, we'd all list the same top 10 drummers. And clearly, we don't.
Just because I like Tony Williams better than Precious, the 6 year old after the first lesson, doesn't mean that I'm right. Precious' mother thinks he is a fantastic drummer and since its all subjective, who am I to say that Tony Williams is better?
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 12-22-2010, 02:16 AM
Michael McDanial Michael McDanial is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The Windy City
Posts: 288
Default Re: Music Myths

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8Mile View Post
I dunno, guys. I get the point that there are distinctions between levels of proficiency amongst musicians. And yeah, I think a lot of that is objectively measurable. But I can't dismiss the reality that subjectivity is a huge part of evaluating music and, by proxy, musicians. How do you hire the better drummer? By hiring the one you like better. Just know that doesn't necessarily mean it's the same drummer someone else will like better. If all of this was so objective, we'd all list the same top 10 drummers. And clearly, we don't.

Music isn't a hard science. It's just not. We have different tastes. Some of the music I consider beautiful and sublime sounds like noise to someone else. And vice versa. I think the frustration over this fact is what drives people who have dedicated their lives to an art form like music so crazy. It really can be frustrating.
I'm not arguing that subjectivity doesn't play a role. I just don't like the "it's ALL subjective". To say that it isn't ALL subjective doesn't mean that your saying that it's all objective. They both play their roles.

I am able to make my personal opinions on musicianship without letting my preferences cloud my judgement. As I stated in an earlier thread, I'm not a fan of Andres Segovia. His music doesn't fit my personal taste. HOWEVER, if somebody were to ask me who I thought were the best guitarists of all-time, Segovia would be in my top 3 for sure. I would choose to listen to Jimmy Page instead if I had to choose between the two. However, I would NEVER say that Page was a better guitarist than Segovia. Even though I really enjoy Page's playing.

Maybe some people can't make the distinction between "favorite musicians" and "better musicians", but that doesn't mean it applies to all of us.
__________________
If you cannot tell the difference between a fact and an opinion, then that's your problem, not mine.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 12-22-2010, 02:23 AM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 2,437
Default Re: Music Myths

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael McDanial View Post
True, but I'm not arguing that. What I am arguing is that I don't like the view that no musician is better than another with the defense of an "it's all subjective" argument. Some musicians ARE better than others. Professional musicians that I go and see at clubs around Chicago ARE better than me. Of course, that doesn't mean that I can't one day reach their level, but to kid myself into thinking that I am on their level due to subjectivity would be foolish on my part.
But you were asking "how would I know who to hire for my band if everything is subjective?" I'm pointing out that picking the people you want is not inconsistent with being subjective.

Quote:
Well, I've certainly seen it made on here quite a bit. Just look at the Ginger Baker thread from a while back and you'll see plenty of it.
I guess I should've put an emphasis on the word knowledgeable. I know people who don't know what they're talking about say it all the time.

Quote:
I can tell you right now I'm probably the farthest thing from right wing.
I'm glad to hear it, and that you are speaking from personal experience- you seemed to be repeating some right wing/Libertarian memes. Sorry if I came off as accusing you of something.

Quote:
But saying that people shouldn't use the word "better" is different. So anybody who says that one musician is better than another is not being a gentleman?
No, I didn't say that. I am not arguing in favor of this "subjective" thing. When you said "This PC "can't say this or that because it might offend somebody" crap really needs to go" I thought you were making a broader point about civility/PC/niceness. For some reason, certain Libertarians are very big on this- they seem to view judgments on them being a-holes as some kind of infringement on their personal liberties.

Quote:
Granted, it's not in the name of PC, but the fact that a lot of kids nowadays are brought up with the "nothing but praise" attitude, and it doesn't just apply to the upper class. Again, parents are to blame for that, not kids.
I don't necessarily disagree with that- you seemed to be laying it all at the feet of PC, and I disputed that.

Sorry if this is boring for other readers- I'm just having to repeat myself from the previous comment. I tried to be as clear in my language as I could.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 12-22-2010, 02:26 AM
Pocket-full-of-gold's Avatar
Pocket-full-of-gold Pocket-full-of-gold is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia.
Posts: 9,892
Default Re: Music Myths

I'm not totally sure that the ability to judge good, better, best, completely negates the subjectivity argument though. Blind Freddy could tell you that I am not as a good a drummer than a host of others, it's evident to all and sundry that there are "better" players than me. I'd never assume a 'subjectivity' debate between Jojo and and a guy who's been playing for three weeks. Of course that line of thinking is unrealistic.

But what about when we're looking into the upper echelon of players out there?

I remember that quote from Matt Smith as it gave me plenty to think about.....but on the flip side, couldn't it be argued that the idea presented by the band leader of knowing who to hire, is indeed subjective to his own requirements for his own music, in the first place? He will pick and choose who he thinks is "best" to fill the roll.....in this case, it's his music he's making the call on and it makes perfect sense that he would have an idea of who he thought was the best option for that purpose.

But taking that idea a step further, do you think it's fair to say that if there really was "one best drummer", there'd be only one drummer who get's all the work? If the "best' was as easy to define as some say it is the drumming world would be a one man show. We could definitively say that Gadd is better than Vinnie who is better than Weckl and as a result Gadd would be on every session played. But I'm wondering if the fact that all three (and a multitude of others) get called upon so frequently denotes that there is some degree of subjectivity with respect to those doing the hiring?

What do you guys think?
__________________
What's the best cape for running away from a gig?
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 12-22-2010, 02:36 AM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 10,000
Default Re: Music Myths

Toldja that parsing this stuff is a fraught business online :)

If we were all sitting at a club with drinks in hand and listening to a succession of bands then I expect we'd find there would be a fair bit of consensus as to who's the more skilled drummer and even whose playing we liked more.

The objective technical side relates to speed, independence and dynamic control - what the player is capable of playing. The subjective side relates to whether you enjoy the choices made with the technique at the drummer's disposal.

When I was in my teens I got into fusion and was an Al DiMeola fan. A fried, who hated fusion, said he reckoned Keith Richards was a better guitarist than Al. I just about had an apoplexy :) Of course Al has far better technique with far fewer limitations but the problem was that the comparison was futile. If we were teaching or auditioning for RTF or The Stones or a project band then it's useful but it otherwise totally doesn't matter IMO. Al's great doing what he does and Keef's great doing what he does and the fact that Al is a much better guitarist is irrelevant.

Brad Pitt is richer and better looking than all of my previous partners but that doesn't mean he would have been be a better match for me.
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 12-22-2010, 02:46 AM
Deltadrummer's Avatar
Deltadrummer Deltadrummer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 2,685
Default Re: Music Myths

Quote:
Originally Posted by Average View Post
But what if one person in the world (his mother) thinks that the 6 year old who just auditioned for my band is the greatest drummer who ever lived? Remember -

Just because I like Tony Williams better than Precious, the 6 year old after the first lesson, doesn't mean that I'm right. Precious' mother thinks he is a fantastic drummer and since its all subjective, who am I to say that Tony Williams is better?
Sorry that job has been taken. Playing devil's advocate is Aydee's job. Truthfully, the ironic thing is that we can all sit down and say who the 10 greatest drummers are.
__________________
Ken Marino Drum Teacher "It's not worth keeping score. You win some. You lose some, you let it go"
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 12-22-2010, 02:49 AM
Average Average is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 475
Default Re: Music Myths

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocket-full-of-gold View Post
I'd never assume a 'subjectivity' debate between Jojo and and a guy who's been playing for three weeks. Of course that line of thinking is unrealistic.

But what about when we're looking into the upper echelon of players out there?
I vaguely remember that back when I first started playing drums there were two guys, call them drummer A and drummer B. Both of those drummers were so much better than me that I could barely even tell how much better than me they were, and I did not have the ability to distinguish better or worse between the two of them. As time went on, it became really, really, really obvious that drummer A blew drummer B's doors off in every respect. But if you went on the street and asked someone with no drumming knowledge, opinions would be split. I think you have a point about top echelon players (placed in the top echelon because of ability, not necessarily because of fame). They are much closer in ability level and one would have to be very accomplished to make an informed judgment as to who was better.

Quote:
But taking that idea a step further, do you think it's fair to say that if there really was "one best drummer", there'd be only one drummer who get's all the work? If the "best' was as easy to define as some say it is the drumming world would be a one man show. We could definitively say that Gadd is better than Vinnie who is better than Weckl and as a result Gadd would be on every session played. But I'm wondering if the fact that all three (and a multitude of others) get called upon so frequently denotes that there is some degree of subjectivity with respect to those doing the hiring?

What do you guys think?
Two of those guys are FAR better than one of them. I'll let you decide who is who. A lot of how busy a player is has to do with availability and whether or not they are likable, dependable guys. You can be a phenomenal player but you won't get many gigs if you are a jerk and show up late/drunk.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 12-22-2010, 02:55 AM
Michael McDanial Michael McDanial is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The Windy City
Posts: 288
Default Re: Music Myths

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocket-full-of-gold View Post
I'm not totally sure that the ability to judge good, better, best, completely negates the subjectivity argument though. Blind Freddy could tell you that I am not as a good a drummer than a host of others, it's evident to all and sundry that there are "better" players than me. I'd never assume a 'subjectivity' debate between Jojo and and a guy who's been playing for three weeks. Of course that line of thinking is unrealistic.

But what about when we're looking into the upper echelon of players out there?

I remember that quote from Matt Smith as it gave me plenty to think about.....but on the flip side, couldn't it be argued that the idea presented by the band leader of knowing who to hire, is indeed subjective to his own requirements for his own music, in the first place? He will pick and choose who he thinks is "best" to fill the roll.....in this case, it's his music he's making the call on and it makes perfect sense that he would have an idea of who he thought was the best option for that purpose.

But taking that idea a step further, do you think it's fair to say that if there really was "one best drummer", there'd be only one drummer who get's all the work? If the "best' was as easy to define as some say it is the drumming world would be a one man show. We could definitively say that Gadd is better than Vinnie who is better than Weckl and as a result Gadd would be on every session played. But I'm wondering if the fact that all three (and a multitude of others) get called upon so frequently denotes that there is some degree of subjectivity with respect to those doing the hiring?

What do you guys think?
See, but that's the thing. Why would we all have to agree on who was the "one best drummer"? Can we not therefor, use the term better because in order to do so we all must agree?

Of course a band leader is going to pick the drummer that fits his band best. (OMG I'm using the word best! :O), but objectivity is still going to be involved as well. Still doesn't mean he can't look at other musicians and not be able to tell the difference between his favorites and who he feels are better musicians. He can still look at a guy during auditions and say "this guy is the best drummer out of the lot so far, but his style just doesn't fit mine".

It's this assumption that favorite is always going to mean best when people look at musicianship and that's simply not true. Maybe some people can't discern the two, but that doesn't mean we should stereotype everybody else as not being able to do so.

Again, just to say that it isn't ALL subjective isn't saying that subjectivity doesn't play a role. Why does it always have to be "all this" or "all that"? Can't both play a role?
__________________
If you cannot tell the difference between a fact and an opinion, then that's your problem, not mine.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 12-22-2010, 03:18 AM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 2,437
Default Re: Music Myths

Quote:
Originally Posted by Average View Post
The whole argument here has been that no one's opinion is any more valid than any one else's, regardless of ability, success etc. Therefore, there is no such thing as a 'better' drummer, which of course, is BS.
Of course it is. And I'll say again, I don't know anyone serious who thinks otherwise. I know there are people on the site who say that; you should go argue with them instead of hijacking unrelated threads.

Re: the rest of your Glen-Beckian rant:

Quote:
The whole concept of individual achievement is supposed to be a no-no now, so saying that one person is better at a given task than another is offensive. Remember, there is no I in t-e-a-m.
What, is Vince Lombardi a commie socialist now?

This is absolutely ridiculous. I have nothing else to say about it, except good job forcing the asinine subjectivity debate.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 12-22-2010, 03:57 AM
Pocket-full-of-gold's Avatar
Pocket-full-of-gold Pocket-full-of-gold is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia.
Posts: 9,892
Default Re: Music Myths

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael McDanial View Post
See, but that's the thing. Why would we all have to agree on who was the "one best drummer"?
I'm not trying to state we would....it was more a question surrounding what I perceived to be a dismissal of the term "subjective" as being irrelevant. It was a direct question posed on the back of the "One of them told me How do I hire the better drummer when I can't tell what better is? ", line of thought.

I just questioned the notion that subjectivity can be removed entirely, thus leaving a clear cut answer on who should be hired.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael McDanial View Post
Again, just to say that it isn't ALL subjective isn't saying that subjectivity doesn't play a role. Why does it always have to be "all this" or "all that"? Can't both play a role?

Couldn't agree more mate....and that was the angle I was approaching my post from. ;-)
__________________
What's the best cape for running away from a gig?
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com