The Grand Master Buddy Rich

[onemat]

I would have to say that Buddy had a extremely long career and was a household word long before Bonham arrived on earth.When Rock and Pop music became the most popular music, it displaced the jazz industry, which was "Americas Most Popular Music" for decades. It also put many players out of work. This may also be part of why Buddy had an attitude about rock music and it's drummers. Most of us would be quite happy having a career playing the tubs, that is making a living doing what we love. I'm happy just playing, whether it's for 20 people or 1000, it doesn't matter to me.
What could have been for Buddy: It's too bad Bill Graham didn't book the Buddy Rich Band and The Ellington and Basie bands into the Filmore the way he booked BB King, Miles Davis and other non-rock acts. Can you imagine Buddy Rich sharing the bill with Hendrix and the Dead? It would have been very good for Buddy and the band. Record sales would have skyrocketed. I have many friends from that era. Along with the rock staples in their album collections, they bought records by BB King, Albert King, Booker T and the M.G.s, Otis Redding, all thanks to Bill Graham. I got into BB King and many other blues artists because I saw him in a 3-way show with the Airplane and The Who at Tangelwood Mass, the weekend before Woodstock, August 1969! I was 14 years old and ran out and got "BB King Live at the Regal", and later "Indianola Mississippi Seeds" a year later. I got my musical horizons broadened many times in the late sixties and into the seventies. My Dad had me listening to Basie and Ellington but I didn't discover Buddy until years later. Stir in the first two Led Zep Lps, a little "Electric Lady Land, and "Wheels Of Fire", I think I was a pretty hip young man.
Ahh the good old days... :)
Matt

[Shamoo]

I believe the drummer who made this comment was the guy from the Strawberry Alarmclock. When his pop career faded he became a recording engineer and worked with both BR and Bonham, though his work with Bonham was limited to a quick sit down on another drummers kit while they were getting sounds up for a SwanSong band. To his credit he did say that even though the kit was a small pop kit "it still sounded like Bonham" but all this is just pure heresay. He seemed to feel that Bonham was over-rated, I think he was jealous of Johns career and used BRs opinions, of which there are many, to prove his point. Hey, Zep, or the Strawberry Alarmclock, take yer pick. I did read that Kathy Rich, Buddys daughter, took her father backstage to a Zeppelin show, and it didn't go that well, anyone else heard this one?

[onemat]

Originally Posted by Shamoo

I believe the drummer who made this comment was the guy from the Strawberry Alarmclock. When his pop career faded he became a recording engineer and worked with both BR and Bonham, though his work with Bonham was limited to a quick sit down on another drummers kit while they were getting sounds up for a SwanSong band.

The drummer in question was probably Randy Seol who was in the chair for Strawberry Alarm Clock's one and only hit record. However, the Alarm Clock's guitarist name was Ed King who went on to a little band known as Lynyrd Skynyrd. I've heard the story of Cathy Rich taking Buddy to a Led Zep show too. What a missed oportunity, Rich & Bonham performing solos together..how cool would that be?
Matt

[Elvin4ever]

Originally Posted by onemat

The drummer in question was probably Randy Seol who was in the chair for Strawberry Alarm Clock's one and only hit record. However, the Alarm Clock's guitarist name was Ed King who went on to a little band known as Lynyrd Skynyrd. I've heard the story of Cathy Rich taking Buddy to a Led Zep show too. What a missed oportunity, Rich & Bonham performing solos together..how cool would that be?
Matt

Because the BR band performed so many school clinics back then (the band's main income), Buddy was asked similar questions hundreds of times. Therefore a lot of us share similar stories. It might surprise people to learn (as has already been stated here) that Rich was good with kids. So more than a few were always around.

Many over 40 guys recall big bands like Rich, Woody Herman and Stan Kenton visiting high schools, where they would do clinics in the afternoon, and a concert at night. The local high school band (usually the sponsor) most often served as warmup. This was easy for us, since we were all playing the Rich, Herman, Kenton charts anyway. This was pretty common back then. Moreover, the clinic questions were always the same in all the bands.

I remember (in the tenth grade) seeing an 18 year old Peter Erskine play with Kenton, and drummers were asking him to play like Bonham, do Seraphine from 25 or 6 to 4...all that stuff. Therefore, no one person has an exclusive on these stories. But when you're a kid, and a famous drummer talked to you, it felt like he was talking to you and you alone.

Nowadays with all this new found interest in guys like Bonham, Moon etc, I suppose a lot of guys recall this stuff. If Rich heard this question from Seol, you can rest assured he had his routine down based on the thousands of times he had already performed it for the kids.

Honestly, I don't think there was all this secretly admiring, studying stuff. Rich was simply asked these questions so often, that he learmed enough to do the routine and threw in his inevitable comments as time went on.

[dothecrunge]

Originally Posted by Shamoo

I believe the drummer who made this comment was the guy from the Strawberry Alarmclock. When his pop career faded he became a recording engineer and worked with both BR and Bonham, though his work with Bonham was limited to a quick sit down on another drummers kit while they were getting sounds up for a SwanSong band. To his credit he did say that even though the kit was a small pop kit "it still sounded like Bonham" but all this is just pure heresay. He seemed to feel that Bonham was over-rated, I think he was jealous of Johns career and used BRs opinions, of which there are many, to prove his point. Hey, Zep, or the Strawberry Alarmclock, take yer pick. I did read that Kathy Rich, Buddys daughter, took her father backstage to a Zeppelin show, and it didn't go that well, anyone else heard this one?

Kathy took Buddy to thier last concert in 1973. July 29th, 1973, Madison Square Garden. Yep, the same concert in The Song Remains the Same.

I highly doubt that Kathy Rich had backstage access, and I also highly doubt that Buddy Rich would've even wanted to go backstage to meet these "incompetant musicians" as he was probably mumbling to himself when he was at the show. If anything, Bonzo might've wanted to meet him, but from all these stories, Buddy would've told him to go screw himself.

Although, I have heard of maybe one or two incidents where Bonzo and Buddy met, but that's it. No other details.

[foursticks]

I doubt that buddy would have told bonzo to screw himself.... the man isn't THAT bad, but it would be more bonzo wanting to meet buddy rather than buddy wanting to meet bonzo, after all buddy did influence bonzo.....

[Fur drummer]

From what I've heard and read about him that sounds like something Buddy would say and do. As someone said the fact that he even knew who Bonham was says a lot. How old was Buddy when he said and did this? 50 or 60 something? I don't think to many people that age were listening to Led Zeppelin.

[Pete Stoltman]

[quote=onemat]I It's too bad Bill Graham didn't book the Buddy Rich Band and The Ellington and Basie bands into the Filmore the way he booked BB King, Miles Davis and other non-rock acts. Can you imagine Buddy Rich sharing the bill with Hendrix and the Dead? It would have been very good for Buddy and the band. Record sales would have skyrocketed.

Are you sure he didn't? I thought I remembered seeing an old Filmore poster with Buddy on the bill. I also remember him opening the show for the Who at the Kinetic Playground in Chicago. Pretty sure that was during the first Tommy tour. Buddy was not only a drummer but also a businessman. He obviously recognized the commercial value of rock music by including arrangements of rock tunes in his set. In fact I think his was the first big band to do rock. Norwegian Wood is one of my favorite arrangements from that era. It opened the door for Maynard and Woody among others to venture into the rock genre.

[Pete Stoltman]

Curiousity got the best of me and did a little searching. Without having to dig too deep I found that Buddy and his band played the Fillmore East on Oct. 4,1968 and Jan. 17,1969. He also played Fillmore West on March 12, 1970. There may have been other dates but those were the ones that I found. Interestingly, also spotted a listing for Count Basie at the Fillmore West on Aug. 21 & 22 1967. A real surprise was seeing the amazing vibist Gary Burton sharing the bill with Cream and Electric Flag in 67. Bill Graham obviously had a very eclectic sense of booking.

[onemat]

Originally Posted by Pete Stoltman

Curiousity got the best of me and did a little searching. Without having to dig too deep I found that Buddy and his band played the Fillmore East on Oct. 4,1968 and Jan. 17,1969. He also played Fillmore West on March 12, 1970. There may have been other dates but those were the ones that I found. Interestingly, also spotted a listing for Count Basie at the Fillmore West on Aug. 21 & 22 1967. A real surprise was seeing the amazing vibist Gary Burton sharing the bill with Cream and Electric Flag in 67. Bill Graham obviously had a very eclectic sense of booking.

I stand corrected. I just never heard about it. Perhaps the reason BB King, Albert King, . Albert Collins, and others benefited more from appearing at rock shows is the obvious relationship of the blues and rock music. Many rock acts were playing their versions of great blues tunes. I would imagine Buddy blew away a few concert goers and generated some record sales in the process.
This has been a very good thread...
Matt

[macktavish]

When I first got into Buddy, I was amazed by his solos, but now I focus on how musical he was and the way he kicked the band. In my opinion, Buddy was as great a musician as he was a soloist. Check out Buddies Big Band at the Montreaux Jazz Festival (on DVD). To me that is some of his best playing.. He had everything great time, dynamics, musical sensitivity, and creativeness. Another tune I love...just pure swing no solos, is Big Swing Face on the album by the same name.

[Zardoz]

I bought 'Buddy Rich: At The Top' dvd tonight. Good concert, with some cool bonus solos and t.v. appearances.

It also claims to have a "blazing solo from a performance on The Mark Of Jazz, from December 1974", yet it's really just an interview from Sid Mark's show. While it's hilarious and showcases Rich's humorous side.....argh! I hate false advertising.......

Besides what macktavish just suggested, what are some must-have Rich dvd's?

[CadaveR (Ivo)]

While Buddy Rich, maybe, could NOT perform all the "gimmicks" performed by Mr. Lang, the otherwise is also true: Mr. Thomas could NEVER, EVER play like Buddy played. To perform such awe-inspiring cymbals-solos with his fast/light-speed, invisible hands, that cannot be duplicated too... never in the same elegant, sensitive and stylish way. NEVER. It's not all about technique but also his natural/neural spontaneous creativity that was (and still IS, to an extent, imo) unmatched.

Zardoz - I recommend you tryin' to get "Jazz Legends - 1970/1987 - BUDDY RICH" and the '82 video at the "MONTREAL JAZZ FESTIVAL", and while they're both great, they STILL don't make total justice to Buddy... as I have some rare, amateur-camera like, videos of Buddy outperforming, really OVERplaying his own self and playing as like in a maniac's dream. INSANE. :-)

One thing that should not be forgotten is that Buddy's best moments were NOT recorded on cameras, they're were recorded inside the andience's eternal recalls of "those special, really eternal nites...".

- Ivo.

[Liquid_Drummer]

Its very simple here.. He was a natural born talent PERIOD. He could have played anything if he wanted to. Jazz has the elements from all genres rolled in to one. It has moments of 4/4 rock feel (if you listen) and time wise is all over the charts as we all know. Saying he could not cop a rock feel with groove to me is like saying he couldnt play at all. Have you really listened to his work on the albums or are you juts judging from what you have seen or heard on the net which is mostly him soloing. He was a freak of nature period.

[Class A Drummer]

Another crazy buddy rich video. hope you guys like it as much as i do.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mQwBdHsVG...h=buddy%20rich

Originally Posted by Class A Drummer

Another crazy buddy rich video. hope you guys like it as much as i do.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mQwBdHsVG...h=buddy%20rich

Buddy did not look well at all in that video. You can really see the strain on his face even though he was still able to play a lot of his signature stuff. He died of brain cancer shortly after.

[Liquid_Drummer]

Anyone know what year that video of him on the Frank Sinatra special is from ?

[Clark]

It's from 1982. Buddy had a heart attack shortly after this. He was not well.
His playing was better than ever. Buddy ALWAYS played great!!

[dougalmac]

I gotta tell you, I've read some pretty silly nonsense regarding Buddy Rich on a lot of these posts. Buddy was the best drummer to play ever, period. The fact that he had an ego was irrelevant. Buddy knew he was phenomenally talented, and he wasn't ashamed or shy about saying it. Since when is being humble and self-effacing a requirement for being talented at something? You may not like it, but he could back it up whenever he played. I saw Buddy countless times on "The Tonight Show" with Johnny Carson in the 60's, 70's, and 80's. He was always innovative, brilliant, and amazing. Of course he wasn't perfect, he was human. But, Gene Krupa, who defined drums and soloing in the 30's said Buddy "was the greatest drummer to ever draw breath." And Krupa was a master. Buddy had immense respect for Gene, and they were very close friends. As far as different styles are concerned, if Buddy heard any Latin lick or groove, he could have played it. There's a famous story about Buddy's big band being hired to open for the lastest rock band phenom in the 60's at the Fillmore West. The rock band insisted that Buddy open their show, even after Bill Graham suggested to them that they should show deference to Buddy and let his big band close the show. The rock band refused, and Buddy proceeded to blow them off the stage totally. The next night the rock band insisted that Buddy and his band close the show. Now there are a ton of highly skilled, talented drummers out there today: Steve Gadd, Terry Bozzio, Dave Weckl, Vinnie Colaiuta, Chad Wackerman, Steve Smith, and the list goes on and on. But I've seen Buddy do things on the drums that I've NEVER seen any other drummer duplicate period. His left hand was unGodly. His independence was freakish. I've watched countless videos and performances of Buddy, and there's just no denying it-there is nobody better on drums I've ever seen. And I mean no disrespect to any of the amazing drummers out there playing today, some of whom I've mentioned here. Their talent and playing ability is phenomenal. But I tell you, Buddy could get up beside any of them on a drum kit, in his prime, and floor them with moves that would make your jaw drop. Buddy was one of a kind, and his like will never be seen again. I've played drums for 37 years, I've run camera on "Austin City Limits" for 29 years, and I've seen just about every major drummer from the 60's through the present day. I've been privileged to see some amazing, unbelieveable drummers and their performances. And without hesitation, I still say Buddy Rich was better than any other drummer I've ever seen. By the way, has anybody noticed that Buddy has more videos on his "Drummerworld" site than any other drummer?

[Elvin4ever]

Originally Posted by dougalmac

I gotta tell you, I've read some pretty silly nonsense regarding Buddy Rich on a lot of these posts. Buddy was the best drummer to play ever, period. The fact that he had an ego was irrelevant. Buddy knew he was phenomenally talented, and he wasn't ashamed or shy about saying it. Since when is being humble and self-effacing a requirement for being talented at something? You may not like it, but he could back it up whenever he played. I saw Buddy countless times on "The Tonight Show" with Johnny Carson in the 60's, 70's, and 80's. He was always innovative, brilliant, and amazing. Of course he wasn't perfect, he was human. But, Gene Krupa, who defined drums and soloing in the 30's said Buddy "was the greatest drummer to ever draw breath." And Krupa was a master. Buddy had immense respect for Gene, and they were very close friends. As far as different styles are concerned, if Buddy heard any Latin lick or groove, he could have played it. There's a famous story about Buddy's big band being hired to open for the lastest rock band phenom in the 60's at the Fillmore West. The rock band insisted that Buddy open their show, even after Bill Graham suggested to them that they should show deference to Buddy and let his big band close the show. The rock band refused, and Buddy proceeded to blow them off the stage totally. The next night the rock band insisted that Buddy and his band close the show. Now there are a ton of highly skilled, talented drummers out there today: Steve Gadd, Terry Bozzio, Dave Weckl, Vinnie Colaiuta, Chad Wackerman, Steve Smith, and the list goes on and on. But I've seen Buddy do things on the drums that I've NEVER seen any other drummer duplicate period. His left hand was unGodly. His independence was freakish. I've watched countless videos and performances of Buddy, and there's just no denying it-there is nobody better on drums I've ever seen. And I mean no disrespect to any of the amazing drummers out there playing today, some of whom I've mentioned here. Their talent and playing ability is phenomenal. But I tell you, Buddy could get up beside any of them on a drum kit, in his prime, and floor them with moves that would make your jaw drop. Buddy was one of a kind, and his like will never be seen again. I've played drums for 37 years, I've run camera on "Austin City Limits" for 29 years, and I've seen just about every major drummer from the 60's through the present day. I've been privileged to see some amazing, unbelieveable drummers and their performances. And without hesitation, I still say Buddy Rich was better than any other drummer I've ever seen. By the way, has anybody noticed that Buddy has more videos on his "Drummerworld" site than any other drummer?

This is the greatest Buddy Rich post ever seen on drummerworld. It sums up perfectly what so many of us older guys feel everytime we see inane comments like all he had was chops, he always played his solos out of time, he was great for his era, he couldn't lay down real grooves, he would suck in a real rock band etc, etc, etc... .

Dougalmac may not be aware of the revisionist history seen frequently on drum forums where Rich is still considered great but with disclaimers, judged almost entirely on four or five videos that I have stated at least a thousand times are not even close to what he actually was.

Day after day we witness teenage fans who argue incessantly, with no regard for idealogical comprehension and/or possess the tools necessary to make such judgements. Instead they rail on that Rich support is a kind of props for an older generation that neither appreciates nor understands the nuances of their misunderstood heroes, as if any comparison does justice to historical accuracy. I have even seen posts where I am told that Rich could not hold his own with DCI drummers, had lousy brushwork, or could not lay down a good groove.

For the last time...from the perspective of American 20th Century drum set playing alone...

Rich could groove any way he desired.

He could play any music he chose to play at the highest possible level, and could perform said task without the need for practice.

He was the fastest.

His cymbal work was the absolute standard.

His brush work was at least as good as Shelly Manne's.

Yes, he would have been great with absolutely any band of any style or genre.

No these are NOT opinions. They are quantatative and qualitative assessments based on many years of educational analysis, and thousands of hours of acute observation.

Am I saying that Rich walked on water?

Yes, I am saying that. He was a Mozart like prodigal freak of nature, whose likes may not be seen again for decades to come.

He may not be your favorite. Check out my handle. He wasn't mine. But he was the best...and during his lifetime, no one and I mean n-o o-n-e dared claim otherwise.

[DogBreath]

Originally Posted by dougalmac

Buddy was the best drummer to play ever, period. The fact that he had an ego was irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Elvin4ever

Rich could groove any way he desired.

He could play any music he chose to play at the highest possible level, and could perform said task without the need for practice.

He was the fastest.

His cymbal work was the absolute standard.

Sounds like you both agree with most of what has already ben posted in this thread. You did notice that the name of the thread is "The Grandmaster Buddy Rich"?

[toteman2]

Originally Posted by Elvin4ever

This is the greatest Buddy Rich post ever seen on drummerworld. It sums up perfectly what so many of us older guys feel everytime we see inane comments like all he had was chops, he always played his solos out of time, he was great for his era, he couldn't lay down real grooves, he would suck in a real rock band etc, etc, etc... .

Dougalmac may not be aware of the revisionist history seen frequently on drum forums where Rich is still considered great but with disclaimers, judged almost entirely on four or five videos that I have stated at least a thousand times are not even close to what he actually was.

Day after day we witness teenage fans who argue incessantly, with no regard for idealogical comprehension and/or possess the tools necessary to make such judgements. Instead they rail on that Rich support is a kind of props for an older generation that neither appreciates nor understands the nuances of their misunderstood heroes, as if any comparison does justice to historical accuracy. I have even seen posts where I am told that Rich could not hold his own with DCI drummers, had lousy brushwork, or could not lay down a good groove.

For the last time...from the perspective of American 20th Century drum set playing alone...

Rich could groove any way he desired.

He could play any music he chose to play at the highest possible level, and could perform said task without the need for practice.

He was the fastest.

His cymbal work was the absolute standard.

His brush work was at least as good as Shelly Manne's.

Yes, he would have been great with absolutely any band of any style or genre.

No these are NOT opinions. They are quantatative and qualitative assessments based on many years of educational analysis, and thousands of hours of acute observation.

Am I saying that Rich walked on water?

Yes, I am saying that. He was a Mozart like prodigal freak of nature, whose likes may not be seen again for decades to come.

He may not be your favorite. Check out my handle. He wasn't mine. But he was the best...and during his lifetime, no one and I mean n-o o-n-e dared claim otherwise.

I'm gonna have to let you stand alone on this one Elvin...I have nothing but 100% respect and admireation for Buddy, but I think you went overboard on this one...

Yes they are opinions and nothing more...we all respect your opinions, or at least I do...IMO Buddy was the greatest and most impressive drummer of HIS TIME...

I know your 100% serious...But when you start thowing out speculations such as "He could play any music he chose to play at the highest possible level, and could perform said task without the need for practice.", you kindda start lossing me...

[Elvin4ever]

Originally Posted by DogBreath

Sounds like you both agree with most of what has already ben posted in this thread. You did notice that the name of the thread is "The Grandmaster Buddy Rich"?

I respect that Dogbreath. But even on a thread of such vaunted title, 16 posts from the last page alone either debated the veracity of the total Rich legacy or openly sought to identify an imagined weakness. It's a strange twist of fate considering his almost untouchable status just a decade ago.

Over the years I have noticed the respectful level and diversified nature of the adamant Rich support base. This is in stark contrast to the cult based factions observed on other threads, who seem interested in their hero and their hero alone, and in doing so contribute little to the totality of drum set experience. I have never met a true Rich supporter who did not admire and respect the whole picture, and because of their diversified nature contributed mightily to the overall percussion based landscape.

The Rich legacy that makes such good works possible, rests on the totemic status of its leader. IMO, for that reason alone, historical inaccuracies tarnish the ongoing progress of the genre as a whole.

[mattsmith]

Originally Posted by toteman2

I'm gonna have to let you stand alone on this one Elvin...I have nothing but 100% respect and admireation for Buddy, but I think you went overboard on this one...

Yes they are opinions and nothing more...we all respect your opinions, or at least I do...IMO Buddy was the greatest and most impressive drummer of HIS TIME...

I know your 100% serious...But when you start thowing out speculations such as "He could play any music he chose to play at the highest possible level, and could perform said task without the need for practice.", you kindda start lossing me...

Its somethin' about being around him I think Totem. Elvin knew him as a kid and he saw him a bunch. My dad played in his band and hated his guts. People say he even got in a cussing match with him one time. But dad worships him as a player and talks just like Elvin about him. When people talk about other drummers bein' better than him, dad just thinks thats funny.

The "saw him up close people" see him almost like he was a magic man. He had a spell on people I think. I don't think the Bonham hardcores are as hardcore and they have better videos to draw from. The old school is right. If you want to understand Buddy's greatness listen to recordings and stay off the video. they're good but not as good as that stuff.

But still, I don't know totem. Maybe they're right. Like your sayin' Buddy was the best in "his time.' But wasn't his time the greatest time for drummers ever? About the opinions, can't people actually figure out whose best based on standards we all accept? I don't know man. I need to think about this.

[Class A Drummer]

I think i heard something pop up that buddy could play any genre and would be the best ever in that genre period. I disagree. Just sayin i think Peart is the best rock drummer in history and buddy wouldnt be as good for the genre.

[DogBreath]

Originally Posted by Elvin4ever

I respect that Dogbreath. But even on a thread of such vaunted title, 16 posts from the last page alone either debated the veracity of the total Rich legacy or openly sought to identify an imagined weakness.

So the vast majority of the members here hold Buddy Rich in the highest regard, and a few say things like maybe Buddy Rich wasn't the best at every possible musical style or he might not have had the fastest hands ever or that maybe some drummers today have better four-way independence. I can live with that.

[toteman2]

Originally Posted by mattsmith

Its somethin' about being around him I think Totem. Elvin knew him as a kid and he saw him a bunch. My dad played in his band and hated his guts. People say he even got in a cussing match with him one time. But dad worships him as a player and talks just like Elvin about him. When people talk about other drummers bein' better than him, dad just thinks thats funny.

The "saw him up close people" see him almost like he was a magic man. He had a spell on people I think. I don't think the Bonham hardcores are as hardcore and they have better videos to draw from. The old school is right. If you want to understand Buddy's greatness listen to recordings and stay off the video. they're good but not as good as that stuff.

But still, I don't know totem. Maybe they're right. Like your sayin' Buddy was the best in "his time.' But wasn't his time the greatest time for drummers ever? About the opinions, can't people actually figure out whose best based on standards we all accept? I don't know man. I need to think about this.

I can totally see the "up close" effect Buddy could've left on people back in the day no doubt...I mean NOBODY was doing the things Buddy was doing back then, and then you actually witness it...I must have been breathtaking...I see "oldschollers" regaurding Buddy as the best there ever will be as kind of a Babe Ruth effect...I talk to alot of old baseball buffs who all reaguard Babe Ruth as the best ever, and I argue with them non-stop...Babe Ruth was the best of HIS TIME...The game has evolved so much since then...You have athletes who excell in almost every phase of the game, and they have to do it agaist much better competition...

Do I beleive that Buddy's time was the greatest time for drummers ever? Not at all...I think we're living in that time right now...The explosion of "over the top" drummers in the last 10 years is like it has never been...The advancements in the industry are at a level never sceen before, and we happen to live in a time where soooo many drummers are able to share information and communicate with one another (hence drummerworld)...Drumming has been going nowhere but up since Buddy, and Buddy has ALOT to do with that...The standards he set were able to push drumming to where it is today...IMO it's at a much higher level...

And IMO I don't think we can ever say who is the BEST...Drumming is far to wide open to limitless options to say who is best...

[mattsmith]

Originally Posted by toteman2

I can totally see the "up close" effect Buddy could've left on people back in the day no doubt...I mean NOBODY was doing the things Buddy was doing back then, and then you actually witness it...I must have been breathtaking...I see "oldschollers" regaurding Buddy as the best there ever will be as kind of a Babe Ruth effect...I talk to alot of old baseball buffs who all reaguard Babe Ruth as the best ever, and I argue with them non-stop...Babe Ruth was the best of HIS TIME...The game has evolved so much since then...You have athletes who excell in almost every phase of the game, and they have to do it agaist much better competition...

Do I beleive that Buddy's time was the greatest time for drummers ever? Not at all...I think we're living in that time right now...The explosion of "over the top" drummers in the last 10 years is like it has never been...The advancements in the industry are at a level never sceen before, and we happen to live in a time where soooo many drummers are able to share information and communicate with one another (hence drummerworld)...Drumming has been going nowhere but up since Buddy, and Buddy has ALOT to do with that...The standards he set were able to push drumming to where it is today...IMO it's at a much higher level...

And IMO I don't think we can ever say who is the BEST...Drumming is far to wide open to limitless options to say who is best...

I have to disagree on these things totem. I don't think our time is even 10% as good as the drummer peaks in the 60s and 70s. All of those top guys then were the great innovators. Nowadays I just don't hear innovators, which is like guys who are doin' something to push a unique sound or voice along with their great technique and skills. Today I hear alot of "chops guys" but nothing that hasn't already been done before in some other way.

Sometimes it sounds like a bunch of great drummers were all smashed together to create some mutant named Vinnie Hellhammer Donati. But they still sound like pieces of old stuff. This doesn't mean they don't play the drums super great. But I don't see any of these guys turning into immortals that get talked about like people go on about Bonham and Rich. Maybe Chambers, but I don't know. I just don't see the old magic dust today. And I don't count Gadd in this because he's really part of this same older age where Rich comes from. He just comes from the end of that.

When I was at NAMM a couple of months ago, I got to hear all these big guys, the ones everybodys all into now. But to me they were all masters but kinda sounded real similar. They had incredible chops but were not innovators. Nothing got me like when I hear Elvin Jones, Rashied Ali or Tony Williams, Morrello or John Bonham, Buddy or Louie Bellson before he got sick. One thing about today is there seems to be more guys goin' around to the music stores and such. Thats why i think some people think its a bigger scene now. But back in the older time big guys played in schools and there isn't as much of that now. That was probably something that left a bigger mark.

I think people now feel like there missin' something. Wouldnt this be why there is all this Gadd worship now?

BTW Babe Ruth was the greatest. Because he was also the greatest lefty pitcher of his time too. A 94-46 record for a nine inning per game starter aint bad for the greatest hitter. Nobody today can do that.

[toteman2]

Originally Posted by mattsmith

I have to disagree on these things totem. I don't think our time is even 10% as good as the drummer peaks in the 60s and 70s. All of those top guys then were the great innovators. Nowadays I just don't hear innovators, which is like guys who are doin' something to push a unique sound or voice along with their great technique and skills. Today I hear alot of "chops guys" but nothing that hasn't already been done before in some other way.

Sometimes it sounds like a bunch of great drummers were all smashed together to create some mutant named Vinnie Hellhammer Donati. But they still sound like pieces of old stuff. This doesn't mean they don't play the drums super great. But I don't see any of these guys turning into immortals that get talked about like people go on about Bonham and Rich. Maybe Chambers, but I don't know. I just don't see the old magic dust today. And I don't count Gadd in this because he's really part of this same older age where Rich comes from. He just comes from the end of that.

When I was at NAMM a couple of months ago, I got to hear all these big guys, the ones everybodys all into now. But to me they were all masters but kinda sounded real similar. They had incredible chops but were not innovators. Nothing got me like when I hear Elvin Jones, Rashied Ali or Tony Williams, Morrello or John Bonham, Buddy or Louie Bellson before he got sick. One thing about today is there seems to be more guys goin' around to the music stores and such. Thats why i think some people think its a bigger scene now. But back in the older time big guys played in schools and there isn't as much of that now. That was probably something that left a bigger mark.

I think people now feel like there missin' something. Wouldnt this be why there is all this Gadd worship now?

BTW Babe Ruth was the greatest. Because he was also the greatest lefty pitcher of his time too. A 94-46 record for a nine inning per game starter aint bad for the greatest hitter. Nobody today can do that.

Always liberating to view the world through the eyes of another...Especially when it's from someone as young and as talented as yourself Matt...This converstation could go on until the end of time. I don't even want to get into Babe Ruth and oldschool baseball lol...We just see things differently on this subject...I think one thing we really do agree on is that Buddy rules...

[mattsmith]

Originally Posted by toteman2

Always liberating to view the world through the eyes of another...Especially when it's from someone as young and as talented as yourself Matt...This converstation could go on until the end of time. I don't even want to get into Babe Ruth and oldschool baseball lol...We just see things differently on this subject...I think one thing we really do agree on is that Buddy rules...

Aw come on man. These guys today like Barry Bonds could have never made it back then. The first time Bonds ever mouthed off like he does now, Satchel Page and Josh Gibson would have drug him behind a tree and beat a hole in him. How many homers would steroid dude have hit then? (lol)

Youre right man we will have to disagree on this and walk away for now. I think innovation is the reason a great musiciam walks the earth. Some have other ideas. But I'll respect that.

Originally Posted by Class A Drummer

I think i heard something pop up that buddy could play any genre and would be the best ever in that genre period. I disagree. Just sayin i think Peart is the best rock drummer in history and buddy wouldnt be as good for the genre.

Oy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Elvin4ever]

Originally Posted by Class A Drummer

I think i heard something pop up that buddy could play any genre and would be the best ever in that genre period. I disagree. Just sayin i think Peart is the best rock drummer in history and buddy wouldnt be as good for the genre.

Ahhhhhh...to be young.

[CadaveR (Ivo)]

Originally Posted by Henry II

Then prepare to eat thy words and humble thyself at the altar of Buddy:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/62425/...8_buddy_is_61/

After seeing this video sooooo many times (everyday many times - a day!) since it was first available on the Buddy Rich official forum (a long time before being available here), I might say very confidently: There was no better snare drum Master technician than Mr. Buddy Rich... not even Mr. Alex Duthart! It cannot be... how??? It's so unbelievable what he does "here"... his spontaneous routines, perfect executions of the most ridiculously difficult hand techniques, eveything is so easy, fast and creative (also inhumanly controlled), he doesn't even look at the drums at all!!! It's truly amazing. I've been studying "all" of Buddy's videos (the ones I've got, of course) and there could'nt be anyone BETTER than him (maybe on league with, but not much more than that). One thing which constantly bugs me is that Buddy quote of him saying that "he is a far better drummer than me" refering to Alex Duthart... I really cannot imagine anyone "a LOT better than him", how could it be? For me it's not humanly possible. Not a LOT better. Definitely. Even less "back in the days...". Just my humble opinion also based on thousands (literally speaking!) of observations and comparasions.

- Ivo.

[DogBreath]

Originally Posted by Class A Drummer

I think i heard something pop up that buddy could play any genre and would be the best ever in that genre period. I disagree. Just sayin i think Peart is the best rock drummer in history and buddy wouldnt be as good for the genre.

I completely agree, and that doesn't take anything away from Buddy.

[LiquidSoul546]

True, but can't you argue that with the vast ability Buddy possesed, it would not be a stretch to say he could very well play most all styles? Not trying to take anything away from any drummer, but Peart has a very good rep at being the best at rock drumming, but to me I kind of think just because Buddy was such a prodigy (bit cocky..haha..) [b]IF[[b]he would have practiced on a variety of levels he probably would have achieved to be pretty good at all styles. I wonder what he would have brought to the "rock" table. I think it might have been too much drums, and not enough music.
peace

[theduke86]

Having refrained from posting in this thread thus far, I will give my opinion.
I've never seen Buddy Rich play live because I was 1 when he passed away. I own numerous recordings that he plays on. I've seen his videos. I think it's safe to say that Buddy Rich is the great drummer to ever pick up a pair of sticks. Just because he didn't play a groove doesn't mean he couldn't. Personally, I think the funk stuff he does is fine. If anyone cares to notice, in "Mercy Mercy Mercy" off Channel One Suite, he plays a basic James Brown type beat, and plays it busy and very, very, very well. There's other stuff- example- he may not have known a traditional 6/8 bembe cowbell pattern but when pressed to do it on Rich vs. Roach he grooved it extremely well..... even if it wasn't textbook correct. He was a true drum virtuoso. He wasn't my favorite- I'd have to say I have transcribed far more Tony Williams, Elvin Jones, Roy Haynes, Bill Stewart et al but just the same, I think Buddy was the best. I think Vinnie Colautia (who I also love) is another guy who can really really play. In my mind, the modern Buddy Rich. However, Buddy just had that "X" factor. I have no doubt he could play absolutely anything if pressed to do so. He was a once in a generation prodigy. Much in the likes of Mozart, Paganini, Charlie Parker, John Coltrane, Keith Jarrett..... Buddy Rich. As good as some of these new drummers are, they won't match Buddy. I love Vinnie more than almost any drummer, but I'll be damned if I'll say he's better than Buddy.

[theduke86]

And as for Babe Ruth, he could hit more than Barry Bonds any day if he was chemically enhanced.
By the way, Go Sox and Big Papi in '06. Second mention to Doc Halladay and the Jays, along with Troy Glaus.
edit: as for lefty pitchers... Give me Whitey Ford with a .690 (!) winning percentage being played against only the best teams in the AL.. 45 career shutouts. Thank you.
PS: Honorable mention to Sandy Koufax in the NL with a .655 winning percentage,2395 strikeouts and 2.75 ERA.

I hate to rain on anyone's parade, but Babe Ruth never faced the likes of Roger Clemens, heh. (also a 'roid rager, perhaps?)

How did we go from BR to BB (Big Baby, Barry Bonds)? Matt, you teenager! Stay on topic ;-)

I hate baseball, I love drums.

[Clark]

Buddy's prime: His last performance. He always got better.

[Class A Drummer]

ok guys here it is. its not as entertaining as the others because buddy only does a cool fill once or 2wice. It starts slow . Gets faster, but still kinda slow. Gets faster and more entertaining as it goes on. About half way it starts gettin a little better to watch.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4FHma2gXm...h=buddy%20rich