The Grand Master Buddy Rich

[bigbang]

again i don't normally hollarback but absurd statements bother me .to say buddy rich did not have rock chops is the most rediculous thing i've heard yet,being as rock was in it's formative years in the fifties all things drums were borrowed from jazz.Buddy thought that rock was a lesser form of music (much like country music is today)and had no intrest in lowering himself to play it.but i'm sure if he did he would have taken great amusement in destroying john bonham in a drum battle.the thing is if buddy respected you as a player such as ed shaunessy he took it easy on you .If he did not he had no problem shameing you off the stage.arrogance YES.As far as bebop is concerned he did'nt care for the way that the bass drum was used to accentuate the time...but to think he could'nt do it is ludicris and ignorant.And to miss a cymbal here and there let he amoung us without sin cast the first stone!

[theduke86]

Originally Posted by bigbang

again i don't normally hollarback but absurd statements bother me .to say buddy rich did not have rock chops is the most rediculous thing i've heard yet,being as rock was in it's formative years in the fifties all things drums were borrowed from jazz.Buddy thought that rock was a lesser form of music (much like country music is today)and had no intrest in lowering himself to play it.but i'm sure if he did he would have taken great amusement in destroying john bonham in a drum battle.the thing is if buddy respected you as a player such as ed shaunessy he took it easy on you .If he did not he had no problem shameing you off the stage.arrogance YES.As far as bebop is concerned he did'nt care for the way that the bass drum was used to accentuate the time...but to think he could'nt do it is ludicris and ignorant.And to miss a cymbal here and there let he amoung us without sin cast the first stone!

Bold words, my friend. Bold words.
Buddy's attempts at playing rock music weren't really happening. God bless his soul, he's the greatest drummer who's ever lived, but he was centric on jazz. He never played amazing latin stuff, certainly his rock wasn't the most traditional grooving approach ever- because as you said, he felt that was an inferior form of music. However, you need to learn it in order to play it properly. In that respect, John Bohnam was a better player than Buddy. It's even cooler since JB respected many forms of music. Buddy respected only a few. As for country being considered inferior, I don't know if I should even lower myself with a reply but I will. The dudes playing in Nashville are some of the heaviest mothers on the planet. I don't like the style much, but country music is happening most of the time. Outside of NYC, you won't find a scene with better musicians.

[bigbang]

not saying that the session musicians are inferior(we all have to work)however it is written with the lowest common denominator in mind ..the average joe six-pack who would not understand anything more than four beats to the bar.As for buddy a man with that much raw talent could do anything he put his mind to , unfortunatly his ego was in the way most of the time.And i'm not sure but i think ther still might be a "scene" in a small town called los angeles........

[finnhiggins]

Originally Posted by bigbang

not saying that the session musicians are inferior(we all have to work)however it is written with the lowest common denominator in mind ..the average joe six-pack who would not understand anything more than four beats to the bar.As for buddy a man with that much raw talent could do anything he put his mind to , unfortunatly his ego was in the way most of the time.And i'm not sure but i think ther still might be a "scene" in a small town called los angeles........

I think the argument here was that Buddy indeed didn't put his mind to it, regardless of talent. His attempts at playing rock music were less than stellar, most likely because he afforded the style so little respect. That's hardly an excuse. It's sort of like a drunk driver saying that they shouldn't be judged as a drunk driver because they could have chosen to stay sober.

If you make a choice it's entirely fair for people to judge you by it. Buddy chose not to play rock or latin music well, and he never employed much in the way of the phrasing innovations from bebop or later jazz styles, so it's quite fair to say he wasn't particularly endowed as a stylistic chameleon. He was, nonetheless, a bloody great big band drummer. I think you're just letting your love of his playing get in the way of reality a little.

By your reasoning we should be praising Einstein as a pioneer in computer science. Sure, he never had much to do with it... but hell, he was a smart guy - he'd have been great if he'd tried!

[bigbang]

you just said what i've been saying,His arrogence and ego got in his way.buddy rarely practiced (if at all) but if he had let it go (his arrogence)he would have made a fine rock drummer.It's not rocket science it's drums.And the analogy with the drunk driving is moot and makes no sense.It's not fair to judge anyone because they refuse to do something it's their choice ..leave it be.

I hope the young folks will read this and understand something important.

Buddy Rich was 100% ambidexeterous in hands and feet.
His speed was equal or better to anyone today
He could play lightning fast heel toe, with both feet.
He had a metronome-like accuracy
He had an ear for the music he played.

IOW: there is no musical style that he could not play physically. He could summon the speed and power to play rock or grace and subtlety for jazz.

No, he did not conquer rock or latin music. But he had the skills to do so. But he hated country music and rock drummers with a passion. He was narrow minded musically, but that aside, there is no drummer today that can do something Buddy could not. His barriers were strictly attitudinal.

[Lambo]

Originally Posted by bigbang

buddy rarely practiced (if at all)

The reason he didn't practise was because he was playing on average 5 nights a week for most of his life. He didn't need to practise. Performing WAS his practise...

[Raymond Bloom]

it's a bit wrong... he DID practice!! I read it from an interview with Joe Morello

can't find that link now :/

[DogBreath]

Originally Posted by finnhiggins

If you make a choice it's entirely fair for people to judge you by it.

That makes perfect sense to me. It also reminds me of a few years ago when Garth Brooks, who at the time was at the top of the Country Music charts, declared that Rock Music was easy, and he recorded and released a rock album to prove how he could be a rock star as well. It sucked, the critics hated it, and no one bought it. He did his absolute best, and he was horrible. (Amazon lists 214 of the CDs new and used starting at 65 cents)

Just because you are the best at something (as many would say Buddy was), doesn't mean that you can be the best at anything else. Buddy did not have the ability to be a great rock drummer, or a great Latin drummer. That doesn't take away from what he was, but there's no need to pretend that he was more than he actually was.

Say he was a pioneer. That's a fact. Say he was the greatest drummer ever. Fine, that's an opinion. But it's just silly to say things like "His speed was equal or better than anyone today" or "He never made a mistake while drumming." No need to make him into more than he was. Any one of us should be so talented!

[bigbang]

all i'm saying is that if he had applied himself to it he could have done it.This is something i see alot of usually from other musician's not drummers , the fact that you play a certain style ( such as country ) means you can't play rock or jazz or what have you.You guy's as drummer's above all know this not to be true. I played a job last night with a rock band and run into some girls there who saw me the week before with a country band, they were totally amazed that i was playing rock.It's all just drums and we should all be practicing different styles.

[Clark]

Of course it's all opinions. These comparisons of Buddy to Vinnie,Donati,Lang, etc....
I feel Buddy was far better in his fluidity, speed, and swinging attack. Buddy
didn't play the non-swinging, "worked-out" math equations for each limb.

[DTHdrummer]

Anyone have info or a video that explains on to do the Buddy Rich stick trick. Not his "secret weapon" technique. But the trick where he stops playing the drums and actually does a groove by hitting the sticks together. Can anyone help?

[jangus]

I would love to show off with that.

[tallassfreak89]

you hit your sticks together haha

[Jaymasta]

Man I want to know how to do that trick to, But I know how to Spin with my fingers! but if I ever learn that Buddy Rich thing I would want to show off with that to :D

[DogBreath]

Here's a video where he throws in a little Stick Trick at the very end. Also in the video, he actually hits the second floor tom!

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/b...ticktrick.html

[Jaymasta]

ok so he did the stick trick for like a second I still don't know how to do it.and most people don't know how to do it but WOW! he is the GREATEST drummer EVER!

[Donovan]

I just learned how to do this yesterday, and now I've got it pretty down packed but of course not as fast as buddy. What you do (of course start in traditional grip) is play RRL RRL RRL on the sticks, and that's basicaly it, it won't sound right at first, it just takes some time.

Donovan

[liquidrhythm]

If you can get a copy of Marco Minnemann's DVD "EXTREME DRUMMING", he shows his version of that trick. It's either right on or "Extremely" close. ;-)

[JohnMunsey]

This would make a great and popular instructional! Good trick!

[Raymond Bloom]

Originally Posted by liquidrhythm

If you can get a copy of Marco Minnemann's DVD "EXTREME DRUMMING", he shows his version of that trick. It's either right on or "Extremely" close. ;-)

Yeah, get that DVD, it's a pretty simple trick

i just tried to do the stick trick after looking at this post and the video....i can do it about 99% consistant at the speed buddy rich does it..........i followed the RRL RRL RRL RRL guideline for the sticking..... but then i found that i wasn't very consistant in always hitting when i would do the left hand stroke

so, i experimented with my grip a little bit and i found that if i hold the left stick really tight and make extremly quick strokes with it, i can do the trick up to the speed buddy rich does it

hope that helps

Originally Posted by finnhiggins

I'm not buying that.

He's an astounding player and his chops are phenomenal. But musical vocabulary? He's not a patch on Vinnie Colaiuta in that respect, to name but one. He never had much in the way of rock chops, indeed he expressed great loathing for the style on many occasions. I've never seen footage of him playing any convincing latin material either. And likewise I don't recall seeing any of Elvin or Tony's innovations making their way into his jazz time playing.

He was an enormous big band drummer, there's few who could touch him on that ground. And his soloing chops were jaw dropping too. But if you're going to put him forward as the kind of stylistic versility and musical vocabulary then we're going to have to disagree. His range was really rather limited compared to many drummers today, he just had astounding control inside that range.

Vinnie Colaiuta isn't in Buddy Rich's league when it comes to musical phrasing. Buddy could play a tidal wave of endless phrases at 100mph without repeating himself. No one can or could do that like Buddy Rich. Perhaps Duffy Jackson comes close. Buddy Rich is not only the greatest musician to ever sit behind a drum kit. He may be the greatest musician who ever lived, of any instrument, any genre. When you think of the greatest musicians who ever lived, who do you think of? Arthur Rubinstein, Vladamir Horowitz, Jascha Heifetz, Yehudi Menuhin, Andres Segovia, Harry James, Benny Goodman, Charlie Parker, Joe Pass, Ray Brown, Glenn Miller. None of them were better at their art than Buddy was at his. Buddy Rich was as great a genius as any of them. Maybe greater.

Vinnie has never, and will never, have a musical thought that Buddy hasn't played 1,000 times. JMHO.

PS: And Buddy could sing and dance.

Originally Posted by Lambo

Yes, as Sabian Cymbals put it, "The world's most versatile drummer".

Marketing. Buddy Rich is the original 'celebrity' drummer. He was the master of fast single strokes, cross-overs, upside flipping drum kits, and an amazingly good big band drummer.

Versatile is not a term I'd associate with Buddy Rich, other that the fact he was very versitile in creating new ways to single stroke and amaze crowds with his showmanship.

Don't take this as a criticism of Buddy Rich. Its more a statement about people who think he was something he wasn't (a rock drummer, a versatile drummer, etc.)

He was the original ostentatious flashy drummer, and his playing has been borrowed from and copied for years now. His showmanship and his thousands of gigs has made him one of the most recongized names to non-drummers.

Originally Posted by Stu_Strib

Marketing. Buddy Rich is the original 'celebrity' drummer. He was the master of fast single strokes, cross-overs, upside flipping drum kits, and an amazingly good big band drummer.

Versatile is not a term I'd associate with Buddy Rich, other that the fact he was very versitile in creating new ways to single stroke and amaze crowds with his showmanship.

Don't take this as a criticism of Buddy Rich. Its more a statement about people who think he was something he wasn't (a rock drummer, a versatile drummer, etc.)

He was the original ostentatious flashy drummer, and his playing has been borrowed from and copied for years now. His showmanship and his thousands of gigs has made him one of the most recongized names to non-drummers.

Hmm.. you seem to have forgotten someone...

Gene Krupa was the original superstar drummer. He was the one that had bigger (floor) toms created and pioneered that "Sing Sing Sing" sound. Rich idolized Krupa, even though he did surpass Krupas talent.

Krupa and Rich both inspired Bonzo, and a legion of other drummers.

I won't argue or dispute Buddy's ability in other genres of music; as has been said, his ego and narrow-minded taste in music got in the way of his ever developing good rock or Latin rhythms, and it's pointless to debate whether or not he could have if he had tried to.

However, I thought I'd post on here addressing another issue that was brought up earlier: Buddy's having been one of the first "fast" drummers (that is, someone whose speed is marvelled as much as their actual skill; as opposed to the "musical" drummer). I'd agree with that statement, that Buddy did overdo it--I once read in an interview him saying that he played so fast because he "wanted to get the hell off the stage"--and though it never bothered me, I can surely see it bothering some people. However, I saw a CD at Border's today that I absolutely had to buy--Buddy playing with trumpeter Sweets Edison in a jazz quintet in 1955. Finally, I can hear Buddy's playing outside of the big band genre--and, though this is still swing and certainly not rock or Latin or country or anything like that, Buddy's skill certainly wasn't all in his "fast chops." The CD opens with "Yellow Rose of Brooklyn," four-and-a-half minutes of drums, and the solo, I think, at times rivals in "musicality" some of Joe Morello's solos--to name one well-known to Drummerworld, his rendition of "Take Five." Not all flashes and explosions: some great soft stuff, great melody. The rest of the album features just some excellent swing/jazz grooves, the more subtle kind that you don't normally hear from Buddy because all you can find in stores or online anymore are his big band numbers (which makes sense, as that was his forté, or at least his most common style, especially from the 60s onward--the "Swingin' New Big Band" years where most of his well-known recordings of today come from).

Just thought I'd throw that out. I've always been a huge Buddy Rich fan, and am glad to say that I can finally hear a good deal of his softer, more jazzy side (well, you know what I mean, anyway).

[Lambo]

Originally Posted by Stu_Strib

Marketing. Buddy Rich is the original 'celebrity' drummer. He was the master of fast single strokes, cross-overs, upside flipping drum kits, and an amazingly good big band drummer.

Versatile is not a term I'd associate with Buddy Rich, other that the fact he was very versitile in creating new ways to single stroke and amaze crowds with his showmanship.

Don't take this as a criticism of Buddy Rich. Its more a statement about people who think he was something he wasn't (a rock drummer, a versatile drummer, etc.)

He was the original ostentatious flashy drummer, and his playing has been borrowed from and copied for years now. His showmanship and his thousands of gigs has made him one of the most recongized names to non-drummers.

I was talking about Ed.

[Lambo]

Originally Posted by Henry II

Vinnie Colaiuta isn't in Buddy Rich's league when it comes to musical phrasing. Buddy could play a tidal wave of endless phrases at 100mph without repeating himself. No one can or could do that like Buddy Rich. Perhaps Duffy Jackson comes close. Buddy Rich is not only the greatest musician to ever sit behind a drum kit. He may be the greatest musician who ever lived, of any instrument, any genre. When you think of the greatest musicians who ever lived, who do you think of? Arthur Rubinstein, Vladamir Horowitz, Jascha Heifetz, Yehudi Menuhin, Andres Segovia, Harry James, Benny Goodman, Charlie Parker, Joe Pass, Ray Brown, Glenn Miller. None of them were better at their art than Buddy was at his. Buddy Rich was as great a genius as any of them. Maybe greater.

Vinnie has never, and will never, have a musical thought that Buddy hasn't played 1,000 times. JMHO.

PS: And Buddy could sing and dance.

I'm definitely not buying that.

Originally Posted by Thinshells

Hmm.. you seem to have forgotten someone...

Gene Krupa was the original superstar drummer. He was the one that had bigger (floor) toms created and pioneered that "Sing Sing Sing" sound. Rich idolized Krupa, even though he did surpass Krupas talent.

Krupa and Rich both inspired Bonzo, and a legion of other drummers.

Non-drummers will say Buddy Rich before they say Gene Krupa if you ask them who is the best drummer of all time.

I'm just saying Buddy Rich was a lot of flash and show and a not one lick of restraint. For all those who rip Weckl for overplaying, they should check out old Buddy Rich recordings and videos.

http://www.buddyrich.com

People who would like to know more about Buddy Rich might consider checking out the website that his daughter is the webmaster of. Very informative on Buddy's musical career as well as his life.

To me, when I watch Buddy (Westside Story DVD) I listen to how well he plays around all the melodies. His style is none but unique to his own. I would consider him to have left a great legacy for many drummers to follow throughout history.

Just like I have a favorite drummer and try to sound and mimic him. To me he is one of the best, but that is my choice of his colorful art. We all have our colorful art choices. Thats what is cool about our differences. It makes life interesting.

[eastcoastdrummer90210]

I've been working on it for the longest time...my left hand (weak) is finally to the point where I can play get about 650 strokes in a minute...sadly my strong hand hasn't been able to get that "snap" I've gotten with my left hand.
From what I can remember, I started it out as almost a single handed buzz role (not sounding like it though, just to get the feel.) and eventually got to the point where I could make larger movements with my fingers....
....that's the other thing...I don't lift my hand back like in the Gladstone video, but I'm using my fingers like jo-jo...


If anyone's got anything else I've missed, I'm still workin' on my right hand...idk what I'm doing different from my left! ....I'll try to post a video soon.

Keep on drumming!!!

Originally Posted by JW89

Buddy Rich makes me wanna throw the sticks down and stop playing, the stuff he puts together is amazing, lol

Many (well-known) players, as well as novices have said that exact same thing... The experienced people have continued to ply their craft, perhaps because it was basically said in "half-jest"... but for all his "hard cynical veneer", to a beginner or student, to literally want to "throw the sticks down & stop playing", or even "wanna", would've been about the last thing Buddy Rich would want to hear. If there's one thing he stood for musically, it was to "inspire you", not "copy him"---or anyone else.

[finnhiggins]

Originally Posted by Stu_Strib

Non-drummers will say Buddy Rich before they say Gene Krupa if you ask them who is the best drummer of all time.

Depends what generation they're of. My grandmother thinks Krupa is the man and never took to Buddy, and she's of the generation where those guys were actually stars rather than figureheads for musicians.

[I once read in an interview him saying that he played so fast because he "wanted to get the hell off the stage"--]
That rather smacks to me like a typical "smartass Buddy remark"... There's only two ways he'd ever "get the hell off a stage"... well, three: 1) If the band was too atrocious... 2) If his tour was hopelessly behind schedule... 3) If he was on the way to his funeral. I won't insist on #3.

Found this elsewhere. Too bad it already has a website stamp, I don't think Bernhard would be able to host it that way.

http://mediax.muchosucko.com/movies/...8-05-09-05.mp4

[MECHT4NK]

this link didn't work. I guess people should try this one

http://www.muchosucko.com/video-budd...msolo1978.html

Originally Posted by MECHT4NK

this link didn't work. I guess people should try this one

http://www.muchosucko.com/video-budd...msolo1978.html

Thanks. I didn't want to post that link because of the advertising, but if Bernhard's ok with it. The other like works too. It's just a large video and when you click on it it takes a while to load. Saving it works fine.

[MECHT4NK]

I believe the other link works only when you have opened the movie once before. the first time I tried it it took me directly to their homepage but now after I've seen it the first link does work.

btw I believe this movie is taken at the north sea jazz festival which is a yearly event in the hague (the city where I'm from).

[Plook]

Cool link. Thanks for posting

[eastcoastdrummer90210]

The basic concept of the stick clicking trick is that:

The stick being hit must stay stationary until it's driven back by the force of the stick hitting it.

Afterwards, the stick that just hit must stop were it made contact with the other. It's a bit like, if you were on a drum or a pad, after throwing the stick down, instead of letting it bounce back up into your hand, you leave it down close to the head. THE RESULT: anything you can play on a drum can be played with your sticks. Once you have the motion down, try adding it a few rudiments. Who knows, maybe you'll come up with a cooler stick trick than the video?!

The motion of the sticks sorta like the swinging pedulum toy that appears on the cover of Dream Theater's new album, "Octavarium".

Hope it helps, keep on drumming!