The Grand Master Buddy Rich

[Butch Axsmith]

I was with the ' Tommy Dorsey Band ' after Buddy
and ' Nobody Replaced ' him //// ever ////
Tommy Dorsey did like Louie Bellson ....
Butch Axsmith

Originally Posted by mosher

No contest
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwJAAlXomVk

Absolutely, positively!!


Though, GK had/has LOTS of company...PERIOD!


;-)

[Moon_Type_Drummer]

the greatest XXXXXXXXXXXXXXx thing about being a drummer is YOUR ABILITY TO DRIVE THE REST OF THE BAND. to get out there and bring your kit out from behind the guitar and bass is probably the best feeling in the world, because in many circumstances, the crowd absolutly loves it.
buddy did that. IN MY OPINION, buddy is definatley one of the best drummers who ever lived, not because of his versatility or his skill, but his ability to drive the band, and the intensity with which he played.

"Another like him is not even a possibility." - Gene Krupa

"The man was a genius. No one will ever equal him." - Joe Morello

"Truly, we will not see his like again." - Neil Peart

"Who will fill his shoes? No one can." - Jim Chapin

'nuff said.

[OOLILISSIMA]

I've just got back to drumming after a 37-year break, during which, almost whenever I've heard music, I've used my fingers to tap on tables, tin lids, car roofs, windows... the list goes on forever. I'm pleasantly surprised how quickly it is all coming back, and how the 37 years' practice has improved me. Anyway, to the point...

One thing I have picked up straightaway is the Buddy Rich stick trick, so it seems it cannot be the mark of a genius if someone as rusty as I am can do it.. I'm doing single-stroke only so far, but I'm gaining confidence that it'll be just the start.

The key was to think of ways round my initial difficulties, rather than just keep banging away. I found it impossible with the right stick travelling down onto the left one. Then I decided change to left-stick-downwards and I got it straightaway - in both traditional and matched grips. Hopefully, I will be able to do it right-stick-downwards when I really get the feel for what I'm doing.

Now I want to become a competent music-reading player. No doubt that'll take me a bit longer.

[aydee]

Originally Posted by michael drums

"Another like him is not even a possibility." - Gene Krupa

"The man was a genius. No one will ever equal him." - Joe Morello

"Truly, we will not see his like again." - Neil Peart

"Who will fill his shoes? No one can." - Jim Chapin

..is what they said about Carl Lewis and Mark Spitz. Look what happened.

; )

Originally Posted by aydee

..is what they said about Carl Lewis and Mark Spitz. Look what happened.

; )

Musicians and athletes.


Apples and oranges.


;-)

[Vipercussionist]

Bernard "Buddy" Rich the world's best drummer was born on 9.30.1917.

Happy birthday Buddy!!

We still listen intently to your awesome drumming prowess.
.
.
.

__________________
Most respect the badge, but all fear the drum.

Originally Posted by Vipercussionist

Bernard "Buddy" Rich the world's best drummer was born on 9.30.1917.

Happy birthday Buddy!!

We still listen intently to your awesome drumming prowess.
.
.
.

__________________
Most respect the badge, but all fear the drum.

Absolutely, Vc! You are correct, sir.

He woulda' been 91 years young, today!

[chungiemunchin]

Originally Posted by Citizen Insane

Well man you got to admit that calling Buddy Rich "Versatile" as I heard some Buddy Fans say is kind of overrating him, he was reasonable versatile in the realm of Jazz, but put him in a latin, or heavy metal gig and he would sound quiet awkward. In comparison to Vinnie Colaiuta who would be excellent in all of those situations And I think saying "Buddy Rich could have played any genre he wanted to" is a very weak excuse for his lack of versatality.

There are very few musicians about which it could be said that there is no way you could overrate them based upon the extraordinary level which they have attained. Buddy is among that few. Sorry but the words have not been invented to describe his achievement. This coming from someone who isn't a BR fanatic but who recognizes total genius when presented with it.

[matthew]

is this true?

from wikipedia "He received no formal drum instruction, and went so far as to claim that instruction would only degrade his musical talent. He also never admitted to practicing, claiming to play the drums only during performances."

if i only played live, i would suck so hard.... i work hard at home and only make progress because of it.

[Therma lobsterdore]

Yep so the legend goes man, though I'm sure that he must have spent hours practicing on his own when he was very young, he must have, but as soon as he started getting hired as a drummer (which happened when he was quite young) he spent all his time drumming pretty much, so there was no need to practice anymore. Buddy was not only gifted, but was also very lucky to be in the situation where he could drum all the time from an early age.

[BuddyBeaufordGaddNeil]

Buddy is the best!! Best drummer ever

[Mike Machine]

Well... Im at work ( a Music Shop) ...I just read this entire thread and have to say this... if you spent as much time thinking/talking about Buddy as you do... practising to be the best YOU can be... Buddy may have the same opinions of you. Good and Bad...in the end its an external opinion of what the man did/and was truly capable of... I just don't see anyone as "the best" in comparison to others... only the BEST they can be with themselves. This for me is the reality of being a WFD Champion... I'm not "the best" in comparison to you or whomever... only the best I can be!!!

I love buddy's style/approach to the kit... but he's night/day to me... so I have to respect where he went/took the drum kit.

Mike

[Fox622003]

Originally Posted by matthew

is this true?

from wikipedia "He received no formal drum instruction, and went so far as to claim that instruction would only degrade his musical talent. He also never admitted to practicing, claiming to play the drums only during performances."

if i only played live, i would suck so hard.... i work hard at home and only make progress because of it.

Buddy Rich was an egomaniac, a poor human being, and personally, his drumming is ancient history to me. Sure, he can't had played when we wasn't doing shows; he hated drumming, why would he do it in his spare time? Come on...


Fox.

Originally Posted by Fox622003

Buddy Rich was an egomaniac, a poor human being, and personally, his drumming is ancient history to me. Sure, he can't had played when we wasn't doing shows; he hated drumming, why would he do it in his spare time? Come on...


Fox.

You've insulted EVERY drummer that has come since him because EVERY drummer has been directly influenced by Buddy Rich whether they realize it or not.

What some perceive as 'ego' was supreme confidence in himself as reflected in his superhuman drive to perform at a level nobody else could. He demanded competency from the musicians he hired the same way any business owner would demand the best from their employees. You called him a 'poor human being', but a 'poor human being' wouldn't create a tremendous adoration and excitement for music like Buddy and his sidemen created.

A 'poor human being' would detract from, or deride those who aimed to enlighten others to the joys of music, which is exactly what you are doing Fox. As far as 'his drumming is ancient history to me.' goes, I suggest you put up or shut up. If you are as hawt sheet as you think you are, this should be easy to prove how much better you are at drums than Buddy was. I don't expect you will be able to do that.

[con struct]

Originally Posted by Fox622003

Buddy Rich was an egomaniac, a poor human being, and personally, his drumming is ancient history to me. Sure, he can't had played when we wasn't doing shows; he hated drumming, why would he do it in his spare time? Come on...


Fox.

Hands down this gets my vote for the stupidest post of the year, and we've still got four months to go.

[Steamer]

Originally Posted by con struct

Hands down this gets my vote for the stupidest post of the year, and we've still got four months to go.

Yes indeed Jay...and the outrageous comment that Buddy hated the drums and drumming. What? Hello?

Buddy LOVED the drums and you can HEAR IT in every note he played on the instrument by himself or with the band...love or leave it but cut the crap comments please and forget the person and FOCUS on the player.

Anyone who thinks he brought nothing to the table and is not worth a can of beans can imagine themselves sitting on his throne setting up and playing all the figures and tempo changes etc...etc... with the band on this very high level of musical performance on this concert live recording. By the way this IS the film footage from Ronnie Scott's of "Time Being" from the "Rich in London" album.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds-m8...os=4n7Lbkk5lEc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds-m8...os=4n7Lbkk5lEc

Any takers? Fox perhaps?

Later........

[aydee]

...

Ya, I never got this 'judging Buddy as a human being' thing that one sees a lot of on forums.
Assuming he was a rotten to core human being, would his contribution to drumming history or indeed the evolution of drum playing be any less?

Does the fact that Einstein was a lousy dad who had his son institutionalized and never visited him ever again, make him less of a genius?

We can only judge him as a drummer, because thats what he had to say to the world.
As for his rants and the 'bus rides from hell' recordings, all I hear is a man who has set the bar very high for himself, and doing everything in his power to reach a higher plateau of perfection.

...

[Lex]

Honeslty, Buddy Rich just doesn't do it for me. I don't get the adoration he gets from the entire drumming community. I've seen him play on videos, and what I see is very good drumming indeed. But nothing from his playing that actually stands out to me. Note, I'm not bashing Buddy like Fox does. I understand he was a very good drummer. I just don't seem to get what actually makes him stand out from pretty much every other drummer out there, ever. Maybe the fact that he is self-thought?

[mattsmith]

Fox622003, when Jay Norem/ con struct/ and I agree on something then hell has truly frozen over. Your post just revolutionized Biblical climate change. Congratulations.

Bottom line-Buddy Rich suffers from an army of crazed hero worshippers who do little to forward his legacy and only worsen this uneducated historical revision of who he actually was. I truly believe that is why you see some of this ignorant backlash and that's unfortunate.

But you guys who pretend to know him then try to pick apart his playing are living in a dream world.

When I read someone slam his playing or make some tragically hip crack about how they thought he was the greatest than outgrew all that, all that makes me think is how much you still have to learn, alongside silence is golden. And I'm going to go out on a limb and say the same to any pro drummer here who spouts that nonsense too, and will accuse you of bandwagon jumping, because it's a silly discussion and you know it.

I also totally agree with Aydee and this ego as indictment stuff. The only people who judge artistic ego this harshly are people who don't play very much and have no business talking about it in these terms, plain and simple. Fact is Rich would only be one in a line 1000 miles longer than the nice guy line where you find Louie Bellson and a couple of others.

Besides not a one of you knew him to make these comments anyway, and only do so to impress on a drum forum. Great artists are complex people and Rich was one of the most complex of all. When my dad was young Rich once got mad and fired him over nothing then turned around and paid his university tuition for a semester.

I think that when engaging in these kinds of discussions it's best to stay out of deep water when you don't know how to swim. Fox, as I have told you before your own playing has a long way to go before making these kinds of comments.

Ancient history? Well if I were you I would become an archeologist and find Rich's left hand as soon as possible because it would do your playing wonders.

There's an expression in the US about being able to play as cute as you talk. Words to live by man. Yeah anyone can have opinions///playing aside. But there's also a big talk line, and you just crossed it.

[Boomka]

Originally Posted by aydee

...We can only judge him as a drummer, because thats what he had to say to the world.

Let me get this straight; if someone is good at something, we can't make moral judgments about their behaviour outside of the thing they do well? I mean, their acts take place "in the world" as much as whatever it is they're good at.

Not sure I can buy that.

BTW, I think Buddy was the bee's knees, in spite of never having a thing for him like some other guys I came up with. And I can't speak to his personality outside of the usual outsider's perspective. I'm just asking a general question here.

I remember Buddy had me at about 5:33 of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eIRj...eature=related

I still can't play those shuffled flams quite like that. Bugger.

[aydee]

Originally Posted by Boomka

Let me get this straight; if someone is good at something, we can't make moral judgments about their behaviour outside of the thing they do well? I mean, their acts take place "in the world" as much as whatever it is they're good at. Not sure I can buy that.

You could, but that would be out of context and judgmental IMO.. ; )
Its the fallibility of the human condition that makes us want to believe that anyone who has done anything great in this world would/should automatically be a great guy.
And if in our opinion he didn't quite measure up to our moral benchmark, well, then his life work couldn't be all THAT great.

Secondly, I'm inclined to take less than half of what the media makes of anybody as gospel. I happen to be close to the Jaco Pastorius' family, and I do know that Jaco was another victim of one-sided stories that became mythic and dont reveal the real person in the least.

Third, I generalize but I do believe that all so called geniuses are essentially flawed and somewhat unbalanced people. To constantly ask so much of themselves usually means somethings got to give somewhere.

History is littered with examples.

...

[larryace]

Could Buddy read? I can never wrap my head around how he hits all the band hits, the stabs, everything. I've never seen him reading from a chart in any of the videos I've seen. Does anybody know for sure if he just internalized all those big band charts or did he read them early on and memorize them? He's amazing. He had the most even sounding hand technique I ever heard. He gives us all a mark to strive for.

[Deltadrummer]

Originally Posted by aydee

Secondly, I'm inclined to take less than half of what the media makes of anybody as gospel. I happen to be close to the Jaco Pastorius' family, and I do known that Jaco was another victim of one-sided stories that became mythic and don't reveal the real person in the least.


...

I hear ya Abe. I could imagine that even in an internet forum folks would quabble about what has actually been said. :P

If anybody has ever been quoted in a newspaper, you will come to ask, "did I say that?" Folks are going to use the fodder for their own reward. And once you're talking about mass culture and a time line like Buddy or Jaco, legend and mythology rules. By the way, you know, Michael Jackson slept with snakes.

I think that you are even clearer when stating that you cannot base an understanding of ones artistic or intellectual capacity on some other flaw or character trait that one may or may not like.

[mattsmith]

Originally Posted by Deltadrummer

I hear ya Abe. I could imagine that even in an internet forum folks would quabble about what has actually been said. :P

If anybody has ever been quoted in a newspaper, you will come to ask, "did I say that?" Folks are going to use the fodder for their own reward. And once you're talking about mass culture and a time line like Buddy or Jaco, mythology rules. You know, Michael Jackson slept with snakes. by the way.

I think that you are even clearer when stating that you cannot base an understanding of ones artistic or intellectual capacity on some other flaw or character trait that one may or may not like.

A few years ago Art Verdi gave me a home made DVD that had 10 years of Buddy Rich appearences on that old Johnny Carson Show. At first glance you could watch one of those shows and think Geez he's kind of a jerk. But then I watched another, then another, then another and you know what? 90% of that stuff was a routine that had been worked out between Rich and Carson to where both guys knew their role in the gimmick and responded accordingly. It was vaudeville and that's where Rich came from. And Rich's vaudeville gimmick was being a wise guy. Now does that mean it was entirely an act? No. But I just think that sometimes people talk very matter of factly about things they have no business discussing because they really don't get it.

As for the bus tapes, I've never talked to a pro musician who had the inside track about that who didn't think the guys in that particular Rich band were far worse jerks than Rich ever was. In fact people still talk about that trombone player who started it all, and he's also a known jerk in Australia now.

Story was he egged Rich on for both those sets while the band was playing and disrupted the performance onstage. Then others in the band started laughing and playing along too. The trombone player was mostly mad that Rich wasn't going to record his arrangement of a tune called Manhattan, although Rich still played it almost every night on gigs. Now if anyone would like to google that chart, you can hear the downloads for yourself. It just wasn't up to recording standards and Rich was right to refuse it. Let's also remember this was the same guy who recorded the bus rant. So in other words, an overrated jerk poked sticks into the cage of a volatile personality for 2 straight sets then recorded it for posterity because he didn't get his tune recorded. The whole thing was a setup from the get go.

Want to judge?

What would have been Tony Williams' reaction to that setup?

Elvin?

Copeland?

Weckl?

And for those who want to pretend they're psychologists and blabber on about how no one deserves etc, etc, I only ask why anyone stayed on that bus if they weren't part of some scheme? Why didn't the aggrieved parties just quit? After all everyone knows those big bands didn't pay all that much. Besides you're supposed to be pros. Goofing up gigs on purpose is the worst thing a pro can do and is deserving of the most extreme consequences.

[Fox622003]

Originally Posted by Steamer

Buddy LOVED the drums and you can HEAR IT in every note he played on the instrument by himself or with the band...love or leave it but cut the crap comments please and forget the person and FOCUS on the player.

That's exactly what I said, perhaps you didn't get the sarcasm.
Someone quated Buddy as saying something like he never played outside of the performances, and never practised. As someone who loves the instrument, how could he not play outside performances? So, he just watched TV and picked up girls? Only developed techniques live? Come on...
As someone else said, Buddy was a nice drummer, that played nicely, but he's constantly mentioned as the best by too many people. It's similar to how I feel about Ian Paice, who at least doesn't go around constantly saying to everyone how good he is.


Fox.

[Fox622003]

Originally Posted by con struct

Hands down this gets my vote for the stupidest post of the year, and we've still got four months to go.

Yeah, it wasn't a very thought out comment. It's true that morals shouldn't get in the way of examining someone's playing. But personally, his playing never impressed me enough for all the hype he's got; and mentioning the fact that everytime you see him, he acts like such a self-important jerk, just seemed to reinforce the question of why is he so revered.

However, to be completely fair, I'm pretty sure your comment about playing behind and ahead of the beat being a myth, a false concept, gets to take the gold home this year ;) .

Fox.

[Steamer]

Originally Posted by Fox622003

That's exactly what I said, perhaps you didn't get the sarcasm.
Someone quated Buddy as saying something like he never played outside of the performances, and never practised. As someone who loves the instrument, how could he not play outside performances? So, he just watched TV and picked up girls? Only developed techniques live? Come on...
As someone else said, Buddy was a nice drummer, that played nicely, but he's constantly mentioned as the best by too many people. It's similar to how I feel about Ian Paice, who at least doesn't go around constantly saying to everyone how good he is.


Fox.

I'll just add that I admire many of the greats since i'm no singular Buddy fanboy by any stretch but a seasoned pro jazz veteran who always gives those who deserve it credit for what they brought to the table for the music and instrument with the BS talk around them or their personal lives in a very distant 3rd on the list. Even another one of my all time favorites Jack Dejohnette in an interview said if you want to hear one of the truly great examples of Big Band drumming and how to play and interpret an arrangement as a drummer listen to Buddy on West Side Story was his advice...works for me too.

The clips I recently provided are all the proof needed what he left behind as a a Big Band drummer and with those who use their ears, emotions and intelligence, cutting all the other bias BS issues out of the mix, speaks for itself in my view Fox.

Like I say for those who think it was a piece of cake to set up a large band like Buddy did show us what you have to compare for me and the rest of the musical community to judge on its on individual merits. Actions speak much louder than all the "talk" in the world on a real live stage situation in front of folks or what can be captured by recorded history....... in the end.

[GetAgrippa]

I have to admit I'm jaded and love Buddy! He was inspiring. But this about drumming "Evolution". It is all relative. Newton explained gravitation as mass attraction and Einstein as a bend in space-time. Both brilliant and made an outstanding contribution for their day. It is believed Newton probably had a high I.Q. than Einstein. Anyways I would love to clone Buddy's left arm and attach it my body. hee,hee.Both on second thought.

[larryace]

If there ever was a drummer who's beyond reproach, it's got to be Buddy Rich first, then it's up for grabs.

[GetAgrippa]

I loved watching Buddy on Johnny Carson. Johnny was a drummer at heart and you could tell he really admired and liked Buddy. They were hilarious as I recollect. I took Jiujitsu in high school because I saw Rich was into martial arts and I though it might help my drumming. No correlation I should say.

[Deltadrummer]

Originally Posted by mattsmith

A few years ago Art Verdi gave me a home made DVD that had 10 years of Buddy Rich appearences on that old Johnny Carson Show. At first glance you could watch one of those shows and think Geez he's kind of a jerk. But then I watched another, then another, then another and you know what? 90% of that stuff was a routine that had been worked out between Rich and Carson to where both guys knew their role in the gimmick and responded accordingly. It was vaudeville and that's where Rich came from. And Rich's vaudeville gimmick was being a wise guy.

.

Yeah, he had his schtick. I also stayed up late to watch him and Johnny and sometimes Ed. It was the link you had the pro world of drumming before youtube came along.

Great story Matt about the trombomist. Thanks for sharing that.

[aydee]

..

You know when someone says something like " I dont get whats so great about Picasso. I mean, c'mon... he cant even draw a face right", there is no real answer to that.

An opinion about the arts is something, so completely yours ( and valid ) , that it cannot be contradicted.

But a suggestion - here's a good question to ask oneself very quietly before making sweeping statements " Am I missing something"? If the answer to that is no, they bang away, by all means.

...

[aydee]

Originally Posted by Deltadrummer

Yeah, he had his schtick. I also stayed up late to watch him and Johnny and sometimes Ed. It was the link you had the pro world of drumming before youtube came along.

Me too, Ken! I remember having to wait impatiently for him to go through all his other guests till Buddy would come on. I'd love their exchanges and you are right, I think they were very good friends and had a schtick going on all those episodes, like an Abbott & Costello.
Buddy had also given Johnny some lessons, I believe.

Yea, that was pre-utube euphoria!

I think the residual impression of Buddy in the public eye comes mostly from those shows and from the 'bus tapes' that have circulated 'wildly' amongst the musician communities.

Not a lot to go on IMPO.

...

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

You are a wise man Aydee.

Buddy.....I am truely staggered......honestly!

Picasso, I'm just not into. That's not to say I don't understand (I'm unwilling to understand....maybe), but I truely don't like. And I see no reason to "study and absorb" him from now until kingdom come, until I do. No one except me will change my mind on that fact........sorry.

Closed book? Perhaps, but it is what it is.

Be careful guys.....no one says we all have to agree. If Fox doesn't like, he doesn't like....accept it and move on gracefully. I don't agree with Fox's summation (it's BUDDY for christ sake, I fail to see how anybody can miss the good), but I'll support his right NOT to like anybody.

[aydee]

Originally Posted by Pocket-full-of-gold

Picasso, I'm just not into. That's not to say I don't understand (I'm unwilling to understand....maybe), but I truely don't like. And I see no reason to "study and absorb" him from now until kingdom come, until I do. No one except me will change my mind on that fact........sorry.
.

Pack your bags, PFG, you n' me are going to Barcelona for some art therapy.

...

[Pollyanna]

Not quite the same, PFOG. If you're an artist then it's fair to assume that you are very keen on art. If you are an artist who doesn't like Picasso, you might want to explore what people see in his work because it might open up some enjoyable and useful things to explore.

If you're not an artist and have only a cursory interest in art, who cares? You like what you like, full stop. Learning more about art might enrich your life, but it's no biggie. BTW, Picasso is my fave artist, daylight second :)

Same with the Buddy thing. If you're a drummer, there may be things to be gained from working out what others see in him. Agree that it's a personal choice whether to check out those aspects of playing or to limit your options. After all, there are many other drummers and aspects of drumming to explore.

For me, anyone who plays with Buddy's passion and skill is worth listening to.

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

Originally Posted by aydee

Pack your bags, PFG, you n' me are going to Barcelona for some art therapy.

...

LOL, Aydee.

My friend, I'm sure you are familar with the old saying "akin to feeding caviar to swine"?

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

Polly.......ok, you make (yet another) reasonable point. Now kindly, sod off!! :-)

Clearly I'm no match for the wiles of "AD"' and Poll.......a most formidable unison!

Well played. I'll bid a hasty retreat......(to pack my bags for wamer climes.......Barcelona, is it Aydee?)

But, fwiw, this " For me, anyone who plays with Buddy's passion and skill is worth listening to" works for me...........I'm off to peruse Mrs Pocket's art books. :-)