The Grand Master Buddy Rich

[CadaveR (Ivo)]

Originally Posted by mattsmith

First of all, Mike James' website is great and what he said about how Buddy Rich invented this whole direction wer'e talkin' about now is dead on. And in jazz, invention is always the bigger deal than perfecting the invention. This is important to understand 'cause there are some good guys on this forum who think that Buddy Rich is like some relic of the past, who like Gene Krupa created the idea of speed with musicianship, but could never compete with the mutant superheros who have come from that style in today's time like Vinnie C or Virgil Donati, or Weckl.

There was even a guy on the Donati site who said that Virgil would grind Rich into dust. My dad looked at that and said "Any idiot can write on the Internet." To me, Buddy Rich is definately more important because he was the real creator, and the only reason guys like that exist in the first place. And I say this without even thinking about the technique or the obvious greatness of guys like Vinnie C and to some extent Donati.

Now when it comes to this speed issue. I have read about Tiger Bill sayin' this and I know Art Verdi believes this too. And when it comes to raw speed like just goin full out with rudiments, they know what they are talkin' about 'cause they are 2 of the fastest drummers to ever walk the Earth. But those tricks they talk about Rich doing are to me part of the creation that made Rich the great innovative drummer he will always be.

About where you say Tiger Bill feels Rich really wasn't that fast, what I believe he is really sayin' is that in his opinion Rich is not the fastest to ever live, and that's a different thing altogether. Remember when you are talkin' about speed opinions that come from top 10 WFD guys, your talkin' about absolutes.

But I don't think speed is what made Rich the great player anyway. A long time ago I was told to listen to super early Rich to get the true meaning of how great he was. Like listen to the Artie Shaw band when he played with it in the late 1930s. Then listen to it the year before he joined. The Rich groove made that band a thousand times better and the players are all better 'cause he's there. it was really the first time anybody had ever heard real independence combined with a tight and crisp high-hat. In other words, the start of modern drumming.

On the flip side listen to that Tommy Dorsey guy's band when Rich left. It was never the same. And nobody played fast on that band. His speed was only a piece of the puzzle.

It's funny, Rich has never been my very favorite. I am more into Elvin Jones and Tony Williams. But I always feel like Rich needs to be defended because of some of the opinions that are out there, like how bein' a nasty guy applies to his playing, or how some guy doesn't like the sound of his snare on a West Side Story video. To me the bigger question is why people judge stuff based on these things.

I think that (I'm saying that before my posts are deleted, for unknown/cryptic reasons...) you should also remember that Buddy Rich was the greatest drummer who ever lived for Mr. Verdi. He was "the Babe Ruth of the drums", as his own words named/crowned him. And his speed was also AMAZING. Even to this day of 2006. What this guy did in 1970 is still mindblowing today. 36 years after. He was definitely damn fast for his time, and damn fast for today's standard too. From what I can remember, BR already reached 'round 1.100 single strokes per minute back in the 70's. And that's SICK! Of course. I agree that his abilities were faaar, faaaar more present in his musicality, rhythm notions than on speed alone. What made BR's solos so amazing and unbelievable were the intelligent aplications he gave to them (to those tecniques and speed). The spontaneous beat-combinations and incredible, also spontaneous, musicality and genius-like showmanship were the responsible for the general awesomeness back then (and "the kids" are still amazed in 2006 too. Just check you.tube for some opinions on the subject...).

p.s. This added info is better suited for non BR fans than the otherwise. It was not really entirely directed at you. Sorry for anything...

All the best.

[neilpscuz]

Buddy Rich set a level for every drummer!!!when someone like Neil Peart does a cd like Burning for Buddy,we should all sit up and take notice.I ve heard a story that one time Buddy broke a spring on his bd pedal while soloing, and still managed to play 64th notes on it!!!his band (Buddy)played at my moms after prom party,(i am 42,you do the math)Buddy was hard on folks,but harder yet on himself!!started performing at age 2(traps the boy wonder)Buddy suffered no fools,and yet when being rushed to a hospital during a heart attack,a nurse asked him if he had any allergies, he replied"country music!"Steve Smith plays with Buddys buddies,(former members of Richs band),this should speak volumes,to anyone who thinks Buddy wasn't all that.he was all that and so very much more!!!!

[bonham990]

Originally Posted by neilpscuz

Buddy Rich set a level for every drummer!!!when someone like Neil Peart does a cd like Burning for Buddy,we should all sit up and take notice.I ve heard a story that one time Buddy broke a spring on his bd pedal while soloing, and still managed to play 64th notes on it!!!his band (Buddy)played at my moms after prom party,(i am 42,you do the math)Buddy was hard on folks,but harder yet on himself!!started performing at age 2(traps the boy wonder)Buddy suffered no fools,and yet when being rushed to a hospital during a heart attack,a nurse asked him if he had any allergies, he replied"country music!"Steve Smith plays with Buddys buddies,(former members of Richs band),this should speak volumes,to anyone who thinks Buddy wasn't all that.he was all that and so very much more!!!!

Ya he set a level alright! thats almost impossible to reach

[finnhiggins]

Originally Posted by neilpscuz

!!!

(...)

I ve heard a story that one time Buddy broke a spring on his bd pedal while soloing, and still managed to play 64th notes on it!!!

(...)

!

(...)

!!!!

I'm in the middle of playing 64th notes with my head on the desk right now.

Is it just me or is being impressed by a subdivision without an attached tempo kind of weird? I mean, I can play in 128th notes with just my left foot!(*)

(*) At 10bpm.

[mikejames]

Paraphrasing June Cleaver, from "Airplane!"...
Pardon me... I speak Jive...

He says that Buddy broke the pedal spring, and still played it "fast".

[BrynnerAgassi]

Buddy Rich, great drummer... for his time... He was the original, he was the "it" man and could entertain while drumming and etc. No one saw this before and thats why he has so much respect. AND he is a legend, BUT to say he had more speed than some of the players today.... NOOOOO WAYYY. look at Derrick Roody, i think i spelled that wrong, but anyways double bass speed... THAT guy is unreal.... Look at JoJo, look at Chambers.... Buddy Rich was the originator, but the story goes on, one man started it and now drummers are taking over what he did.
I am just waiting for another ten years to come around and see the quality of drummers in the future!

Buddy Rich was great. Really great. I have only heard mostly solo work, though, which sucks (not his solo's, because I haven't heard him with a band), I've heard maybe 20 seconds of him with a band. I do find his solos to be pretty repetitive now though.

When people say he is a jerk, and people respond "It was because he worked with young, incompetent musicians".......Does this make it right to yell at a 7-year-old because they can't play an E chord? Just another point of view.

[Yogman]

Over 30 years ago I was bought the Buddy Rich Snare Drum Rudiment Book.
Reading the thread I was wondering how many copies that book has sold, to aspiring students. It was a bible for me and I am sure for many others.
I luckily saw BR and his orchestra play a concert in Nottingham England in the 80's. He played West Side Story, and it just blew me away - something I'll never forget.

[jimmyq]

I agree man. Buddy truly is a legend and like you said, legends are being born today. Chambers is very impresively fast with his hands and is also a future legend. Gene Kruppa was pretty awesome too.

[CadaveR (Ivo)]

Originally Posted by BrynnerAgassi

Buddy Rich, great drummer... for his time... He was the original, he was the "it" man and could entertain while drumming and etc. No one saw this before and thats why he has so much respect. AND he is a legend, BUT to say he had more speed than some of the players today.... NOOOOO WAYYY. look at Derrick Roody, i think i spelled that wrong, but anyways double bass speed... THAT guy is unreal.... Look at JoJo, look at Chambers.... Buddy Rich was the originator, but the story goes on, one man started it and now drummers are taking over what he did.
I am just waiting for another ten years to come around and see the quality of drummers in the future!

Wrong. Plain wrong assertment. Derrick Roddy faster than Buddy Rich? "Yeah", "you're right". He does use a double bass. But that's it. no chances hands-wise. Sorry! : /

As a whole, as a "magic", his (Buddy's) performances are still the most memorable ones for the ones who've had the oportunity to witness him. The bad ass thing about Buddy is that nature is only that gift-giving once in a century. There's always one, and only-one guy who happens to have gained, all at once, speed, dexterity, immense spontaneous creativity, showmanship, exceptional rthythm senses and an interesting/charismatic personality all into just one "ordinary" guy from NY city. And when you do the maths and watch (and listen to...) all Buddy's videos available through the net and have a real good sense of justice, there's no way you can deny it all.

[ewanlaing]

i think you're both right to some extent. there are definately players out there today, who could play buddy's solos just as well as he did, though not many.
but of course, it seems like no-one could in the day, and he started a lot of trends and made some great contributions to drumming and music as a whole.
i think the reason we love him so much is that there never was anyone quite like him before, and no-one has ever left a mark like his since.

[CadaveR (Ivo)]

Originally Posted by ewanlaing

i think you're both right to some extent. there are definately players out there today, who could play buddy's solos just as well as he did, though not many.
but of course, it seems like no-one could in the day, and he started a lot of trends and made some great contributions to drumming and music as a whole.
i think the reason we love him so much is that there never was anyone quite like him before, and no-one has ever left a mark like his since.

Yes, maybe. But still there's a huge, and i mean, HUGE difference between trying for days to copy what he did and CREATE what he did the way he usually created so much amazing solos like he usually played out of nowhere. Completely spontaneously. Oh God, how there is! (a difference). And that's exactly where/when Mr. Buddy Rich becomes the best drummer this face of the world has ever known. :)

What i'm trying to say is that, before everything, he had an absolutely brilliant percussive mind. His best qualities are the way he brilliantly thinked, fast as hell (and hell.. how well!...) those spontaneous solos and had the nature-given gift of having the physical possibilies of performing them. Performing whatever would come from his absolutely insane kind of mind (and i, definitely, dig this rapid genius mind i lot. I like it a lot, and try to perform things like those for other purposes in my life).

[fullmoon]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=X_giGBLeE...h=buddy%20rich

sorry if this has been posted here before

[DogBreath]

No need to link to YouTube when we already have the movie here.

[tomgrosset]

Buddy Rich was one of my first influences back when I was 12 years old.
Here's some footage of him with Artie Shaw.
Check it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luH5DsVsK5U

[mikejames]

This one, coming out in September, should be a huge hit with BR fans. Buddy is obviously "in the zone" on this one... Can't wait to hear and see it! (The drum solo from "Channel One Suite" is already posted here on Drummerworld, but to see the entire performance will be exciting.)

http://jazzicons.com/#buddy

I actually have that dvd with the whole Martin and Lewis tv show, bought it at Wal-mart for $5. An interesting thing happens during the solo, right after his flurry on the cymbals his beater comes off his pedal and he does the rest of the solo without a kick. You can slow it down on the dvd and see it clearly come off, he was and is the greatest drummer that ever held a pair of sticks.

[mikejames]

Hi everybody,

The page I've created at http://www.mikejamesjazz.com/br_clips.html continues to grow...

I've just gotten some materials out of storage, which enabled me to post 3 new concerts of Buddy and his band, which I know you'll enjoy.

The best one is a complete two-set concert from Columbus, Ohio, in mid 1973. It's a good quality recording made from the sound board, on a 4-channel reel-to-reel, and has some real "moments" on it, including an especially-funky version of "Paul's Tune", which first appeared on the "Different Drummer" album. (recorded by the sound man)

There's a nightclub performance from February 20th, 1974, which shows how a pro band deals with odd circumstances. There's no bass player! Check it out... filled with awesome playing by Lin Biviano, Pat LaBarbara, and the rest of Buddy's great players at the time. (recorded by me)

The third one i've added is a horrible recording, but fans would probably rather hear it than not. The band plays great... It's the technical end of the recording that's bad. It's from an appearance at the "Executive Inn", in Evansville, Indiana, from 1984. (recorded by the sound man there, at the time)

As always, these are completely free for you to download. I know you'll enjoy them.

Have fun, and happy gigging!
- Mike James

[mikejames]

I'm (obviously, I suppose) a huge fan of Buddy's music. Buddy's playing,along with his "the show must go on" attitude, will be discussed forever, which is the proof of what he was. Of course, our appreciation of music is subjective, so you may disregard guys like me as being biased. But here are some undeniable facts...

What (besides double-bass drumming) are the most popular tech subjects discussed here on Drummerworld? ...the Moeller and Gladstone techniques that Buddy and others had mastered. Derrick Pope's "stick trick" and "one-handed roll", as performed by Buddy, are still hot subjects. It's ironic that Buddy was the "textbook example" of the best way to play most techniques, but that he did it NATURALLY, with very little formal study.

Buddy once did a performance at Jazz at the Philharmonic, where he came out front and played a solo on ONLY two bass drums, flooring the audience. (Buddy didn't normally use two bass drums... He just sat down and did it, amazing everyone... Then he never did it again.)

And...
Buddy's influence was a major force in the drum industry itself. Who was responsible for the first (reinforced) "dot" heads? Buddy Rich asked Remo Belli about making his bass drum head last a little longer, and they were invented. Who motivated the design of the (Rogers) "Dynasonic" snare drum? Buddy Rich asked Rogers to design a snare drum that could respond at all volume levels with clarity, and without "choking", and after they did, he proved it's attributes during his playing with Harry James and later, with his own band.

Buddy was the first drummer to play drums "upside down", when he did a gag performance on the pilot for the "I've got a secret" TV show, which then led to many rock drummers doing it in their live shows.

Buddy drove Slingerland hard when he was en endorser in the late 1960s and 1970s, proving his seriousness by playing other drums, when Slingerland made drums he wasn't happy with. Simply naming a drum as a "Buddy Rich model" wasn't enough to buy Buddy's loyalty. On the other hand, when they, in his own words, "finally made him a snare drum that was playable", he was happy to play it and speak about it. He used very simple drums and hardware, showing drum companies (and drummers) that "complex" and "heavy-duty" didn't necessarily mean "better". His thoughts on cymbals influenced Zildjian. He didn't talk a great deal about these things, but simply led by example. When Slingerland let him down, in the mid 1970s, he switched to Ludwig, and stayed with them for years.

In his final years, when he could've played anything he wanted, he returned to Slingerland "Radio King" drums, made in the late 1930s. That wasn't because he was "nostalgic"... It was because he loved the sound of the drums. After his death, drummers and manufacturers alike began to wise up, and you're now seeing "Vintage" drums in their own (high-priced) market, as well as modern manufacturers trying to emulate them. Just recently, DW has introduced a vintage series, and who was the "showroom" kit modeled after? Buddy Rich. Buddy's sidemen included generations of players and writers who then went on to become the jazz masters of our time.

We all benefit from Buddy's influence, (and, in all fairness, other great drummers too) whether we realize it or not. He certainly did a lot more than just "play fast".

For those of you who would like to hear some great live concert clips of Buddy and his bands, I'm hosting a page of previously-unheard and unpublished clips on my site, at http://www.mikejamesjazz.com/br_clips.html (free to download for personal listening, with no "catch") Enjoy!

[mlaugh]

I once listend to Buddy play on the Johnny Carson show. I was in shock at how this guy could play. I have never seen anything like it .................man what a drummer!!! He is the best in his controll and chops and speed......I only wish I could of met him.

[Thomas]

Yes Buddy was A absolutley Fantastic drummer, Yes he was extremley influential...but i think popularity shaddows the efforts of other true greats such as Krupa and Tony Williams.

Originally Posted by Thomas

Yes Buddy was A absolutley Fantastic drummer, Yes he was extremley influential...but i think popularity shaddows the efforts of other true greats such as Krupa and Tony Williams.

Hey Thomas. Good point. But did you know what Gene Krupa said about Buddy Rich? He said that "Buddy Rich is the Greatest Drummer to have ever drawn breath!" Quite a compliment from one of the true greats, huh? Cya! Peace!

Originally Posted by finnhiggins

I'm not buying that.

He's an astounding player and his chops are phenomenal. But musical vocabulary? He's not a patch on Vinnie Colaiuta in that respect, to name but one. He never had much in the way of rock chops, indeed he expressed great loathing for the style on many occasions. I've never seen footage of him playing any convincing latin material either. And likewise I don't recall seeing any of Elvin or Tony's innovations making their way into his jazz time playing.

He was an enormous big band drummer, there's few who could touch him on that ground. And his soloing chops were jaw dropping too. But if you're going to put him forward as the kind of stylistic versility and musical vocabulary then we're going to have to disagree. His range was really rather limited compared to many drummers today, he just had astounding control inside that range.

Huh? There would be no Vinnie Colaiuta if there was no Buddy Rich. Come to think of it,
the list here would be infinite, of drummers that would not be, had it not been for Buddy
Rich. My guess is you haven't seen many videos/clips of him. There was NO style of drums he couldn't play. Have you ever seen what his left hand did while he played? You're kidding, right? Few who could touch him? What few? Can I make a suggestion? There are a number or really good videos of him available. You should pick one up and take a look at it. Fact is, he was the greatest drummer to have ever drawn breath. Not my quote. Gene Krupas'.
Play on!

Originally Posted by mikejames

I'm (obviously, I suppose) a huge fan of Buddy's music. Buddy's playing,along with his "the show must go on" attitude, will be discussed forever, which is the proof of what he was. Of course, our appreciation of music is subjective, so you may disregard guys like me as being biased. But here are some undeniable facts...

What (besides double-bass drumming) are the most popular tech subjects discussed here on Drummerworld? ...the Moeller and Gladstone techniques that Buddy and others had mastered. Derrick Pope's "stick trick" and "one-handed roll", as performed by Buddy, are still hot subjects. It's ironic that Buddy was the "textbook example" of the best way to play most techniques, but that he did it NATURALLY, with very little formal study.

Buddy once did a performance at Jazz at the Philharmonic, where he came out front and played a solo on ONLY two bass drums, flooring the audience. (Buddy didn't normally use two bass drums... He just sat down and did it, amazing everyone... Then he never did it again.)

And...
Buddy's influence was a major force in the drum industry itself. Who was responsible for the first (reinforced) "dot" heads? Buddy Rich asked Remo Belli about making his bass drum head last a little longer, and they were invented. Who motivated the design of the (Rogers) "Dynasonic" snare drum? Buddy Rich asked Rogers to design a snare drum that could respond at all volume levels with clarity, and without "choking", and after they did, he proved it's attributes during his playing with Harry James and later, with his own band.

Buddy was the first drummer to play drums "upside down", when he did a gag performance on the pilot for the "I've got a secret" TV show, which then led to many rock drummers doing it in their live shows.

Buddy drove Slingerland hard when he was en endorser in the late 1960s and 1970s, proving his seriousness by playing other drums, when Slingerland made drums he wasn't happy with. Simply naming a drum as a "Buddy Rich model" wasn't enough to buy Buddy's loyalty. On the other hand, when they, in his own words, "finally made him a snare drum that was playable", he was happy to play it and speak about it. He used very simple drums and hardware, showing drum companies (and drummers) that "complex" and "heavy-duty" didn't necessarily mean "better". His thoughts on cymbals influenced Zildjian. He didn't talk a great deal about these things, but simply led by example. When Slingerland let him down, in the mid 1970s, he switched to Ludwig, and stayed with them for years.

In his final years, when he could've played anything he wanted, he returned to Slingerland "Radio King" drums, made in the late 1930s. That wasn't because he was "nostalgic"... It was because he loved the sound of the drums. After his death, drummers and manufacturers alike began to wise up, and you're now seeing "Vintage" drums in their own (high-priced) market, as well as modern manufacturers trying to emulate them. Just recently, DW has introduced a vintage series, and who was the "showroom" kit modeled after? Buddy Rich. Buddy's sidemen included generations of players and writers who then went on to become the jazz masters of our time.

We all benefit from Buddy's influence, (and, in all fairness, other great drummers too) whether we realize it or not. He certainly did a lot more than just "play fast".

For those of you who would like to hear some great live concert clips of Buddy and his bands, I'm hosting a page of previously-unheard and unpublished clips on my site, at http://www.mikejamesjazz.com/br_clips.html (free to download for personal listening, with no "catch") Enjoy!

Ahh...Written by a true professional. Absolutely true on all points. You must have read my mind, Mike! Well Done! Write On & Play On!

Originally Posted by Jusstickinaround

I actually have that dvd with the whole Martin and Lewis tv show, bought it at Wal-mart for $5. An interesting thing happens during the solo, right after his flurry on the cymbals his beater comes off his pedal and he does the rest of the solo without a kick. You can slow it down on the dvd and see it clearly come off, he was and is the greatest drummer that ever held a pair of sticks.

Just wanted to repeat that last statement: He was and is the greatest drummer that ever held a pair of sticks. The truth always bears repeating! Play On!

Buddy had a natural talent that was extraordinary in no uncertain terms. I can't imagine that there is any beat, any independant technical thing that he could not do if he wished. He was a drummer of just that magnitude.

It seems far beyond any individual on this forum to put Buddy into a paradigm, and declare what Buddy could and could not do. I find that logic rediculous. It's interpolation and opinion only.

EDIT: Broad stratification of Buddy isn't a good idea either. I agree with the following comments. The words "best" or "can't" probably should not be used.

[mattsmith]

Look Michel, I'm as big a Buddy Rich fan as there is. I don't just watch the same 5 videos again and again. I listen a lot, and I've studied his whole career, not just the West Side Story/appearences on Tonight Show part. My dad and grandfather even did some ocassional playing with him. For the record I think he is probably the greatest drummer of all time, and certainly the greatest technician...I don't care what the Vinnie/Virgil fanatics think.

I even scoff at that crowd who say there is no such thing as a best drummer, and that you can't measure stuff like that, because that's just plain BS. Best is always qualifiable, and those who say it isn't, just want to keep the lines blurred so they can feel better about never having any personal goals in their musical lives.

But I've gotta comment on this latest Buddy fan base, because I think you guys are startin' to get out of control. Look at this man. Four posts in a row, and what have you really said?

You start off by repeating the Krupa quote that's been said a thousand times, and then you can't believe that people who favor others can possibly exist, implying that finnhiggins has probably never seen a Rich video, when that's one of the main topics discussed on this forum. Then you spend the next 2 posts doing no more than reinforcing the parroting of ardent disciples.

Geez, I never thought I would say this, but you guys are getting more and more like Travis Barker fanboys every day. I think your throat cramming tactics like these last 4 spams, only qualify my point and dishonor the legacy of Buddy Rich. And you know something? It's really starting to bug me.

Let me tell you something about finnhiggins. He and I have butted heads over a lot of issues, and I thought that He's not a patch on Vinnie Colaiuta comment was pretty out there too. But instead of checking out finn's views, or even looking at the discussions on this thread, you essentially assumed he was uneducated about Rich in any way, which is not even close to be being true.

In fact one of the reasons finn's Rich comments irk me as they do, is because he does know what he is talking about. You coming in here and lecturing us...a person who has yet to offer a intellectual qualified comment, doesn't really help the cause at all.

I also most strongly resent the newest Rich fanboy tactic, which is to use the Buddy Rich website forum to artificially distort what is believed to be Rich naivete on Drummerworld. I invite you to visit the Rich forum now, because his Drummerworld rant thread is still there, along with my rebuttal.

I even went to the Rich forum to explain that I thought there was a 4 year period in Rich's career where he was the best who ever lived without doubt. The reaction of the Rich fan base was to express disbelief that I would only give Rich 4 years of unquestioned immortality, in light of the fact that those 4 years were also the peak years of Elvin Jones and Tony Williams. And this came only weeks after I defended Rich about his speed...a most hallowed issue Rich issue indeed, and one I was qualified to discuss.

Here's the issue at hand.

The Rich fan base need to do some soul searching, because the way you are getting your message out lacks... to say the least. And I have to think that Cathy Rich is not going to like it, if the original accurate viewpoint about her father becomes controlled by instransigent fanatics, who will do anything to sell their point.

There are already some drummer fan bases that suffer this affliction. I would not want this to occur to the legacy of the greatest drummer of us all.

Come on, let his music speak for itself. It already does for me. History will prove your point if you allow things to run their proper course.

[CadaveR (Ivo)]

About Buddy being the best drum technician to ever live... that's probably true. The fact that his solos did not follow a certain and restrict time did not matter at all. His solos worked as a free and spontaneous exercise of genius creativity. Which other drummer could simply seat and play like that? Out of nowhere and withouth much thinking or "special preparation"? Not many, that's for certain.

When i watch/listen to some of Buddy's solos on the hi-hat, for example, i can clearly sense his geniality in every step of the composition of such solo. The snare dynamics have an order, beginning, "mid", end, the accents are very accurate and are followed by immediately subsequent equally interesting rudiments played with class and "magic". I never get tired of watching as many of his videos as possible; always, just when gets dark and total boreness arrive. That's what art is all about; that's what truly God-given talent (and genius) is all about: to make us lighter and brighter individuals; to inspire us and make us better (even for just 1 sec) individuals and learn from this apreciation moment.

What can you say about a guy that did around 1.100 beats per minute in the 60's using traditional grip!??? That's what's been reached TODAY! In 2006. Amazing. Incredible, you (realistically) name it. I name it Buddy Rich. The greatest musical phenomenon in the percussion area EVER. Period (at least to me).

ps. For some strange and subject reason, some of my posts are still getting gently cleaned from this website... and not one ofense or bad name was taken.... hmmm.

[mattsmith]

Originally Posted by CadaveR (Ivo)

About Buddy being the best drum technician to ever live... that's probably true. The fact that his solos did not follow a certain and restrict time did not matter at all. His solos worked as a free and spontaneous exercise of genius creativity. Which other drummer could simply seat and play like that? Out of nowhere and withouth much thinking or "special preparation"? Not many, that's for certain.

When i watch/listen to some of Buddy's solos on the hi-hat, for example, i can clearly sense his geniality in every step of the composition of such solo. The snare dynamics have an order, beginning, "mid", end, the accents are very accurate and are followed by immediately subsequent equally interesting rudiments played with class and "magic".

This kind of post convinces a whole lot better than the blind scripture I just discussed.

[CadaveR (Ivo)]

Originally Posted by mattsmith

This kind of post convinces a whole lot better than the blind scripture I just discussed.

Thanks, Matt.

ps. You have a short but impressive musical history (was just checking your website...). Keep up the great job!

pss. I know you from the "old times" (Buddy Rich's official forum and stuff). Keep it FAST! Heh. Take care.

[thombo]

Originally Posted by mikejames

This one, coming out in September, should be a huge hit with BR fans. Buddy is obviously "in the zone" on this one... Can't wait to hear and see it! (The drum solo from "Channel One Suite" is already posted here on Drummerworld, but to see the entire performance will be exciting.)

http://jazzicons.com/#buddy

HI Mike, I checked your your Buddy Rich page ( on your web site) , I really just scanned it quickly but NICE! Stories about how you drove.......whatever and what not , just to see Buddy....anyway I was wondering...but first a thought just came to mind......until you've see Buddy live, you just might think you've found a drummer better than him.

I made this mistake once. During the Jazz Rock era with Return to Forever wowing the
Jazz world and Billy Cobham having just come out with Magic, I thought that Buddy has met his match in Billy> But then Buddy came to town (San Francisco) , so I went to see the old guy for "ol time sake" not knowing what he had in store. It was at the Great American Music Hall, and he had a Jazz Rock quartet, no horns no Big Band, just a bass,
a piano a guitar and him. 4 Dudes and I wondered "what is this gonna be?" Here's what it was. The most impressive display of Jazz Rock drumming I'd ever seen. Billy in my mind suddenly became a ghost note shy of Buddy (which is still great) but he had to be placed somewhere. Ironically later on the Tonight Show, in a interview with Buddy, when asked if there were any other great drummers out there (besides you: as Johnny would always stroke him) he did say yes, "that would be a young man named Billy Cobham".

So getting back to what I wanted to ask you.....are there or do you know of any recordings
of Buddy's Jazz Rock. I've never really looked, but I'm wondering now?

Later
Thombo

[mattsmith]

I don't want to step into Mike's eventual more qualified answer, but I wanted to weigh in on this one.

There are a number of fine examples of Rich playing in rock/fusion and crossover genres. Of course most people point immediately to his Pacific Jazz outing Buddy and Soul, where the switch was most apparent. But in my estimation he gets a lot better at this style a little later, although the Wonderbag track is quite good.

To me, Speak No Evil RCA from the mid 1970s, was a really fine example of Rich playing in this style. But it was destroyed by jazz critics and his main fan group, who thought Rich had sold out. A lot of the arrangements themselves weren't that great either, with slicked up silly background vocals. So you don't hear much about it now. But if some of the Rich can't play rock guys would listen to it, they would have a much better impression of his drumming in that style. The horn playing on Speak No Evil ... especially saxophonist Steve Marcus, and the trumpet work of Blood Sweat and Tears' Lew Soloff, is top notch.

You also hear fine rock based Rich examples on Roar of 74, and latter efforts where saxophonist Bob Mintzer is present. But again in most cases, the quality of the rock based arrangements themselves is so horrible, that the playing is also dismissed in hand..and except for Speak No Evil, Rich never recorded a project where he played all rock. So if there were some jazz tracks on the album, young guys would say Not a real rock record, and dismiss it. So he was gettin' it from both sides.

My feeling about his rock playing is: Much, much better than his detractors claim. In facts it's really good... but not the greatest rock drumming in history as the fanatics would say either.

[bromasi]

http://jazzicons.com/#buddy
I just purchased this DVD and it's great, I was lucky to see this group Buddy's Killer Band,and on this DVD Buddy seems so relaxed just kicking the band like no one could,I recommed this one to any one who loves big band drumming or just great drumming.

Fact WAS, not IS, and even that is subjective... Gene Krupa died in 1973. Could Gene's OPINION have changed if he had remained alive another 33 years and heard Colaiuta or Weckl or any of the other "modern greats"? I think so.

In 1973 who was "the greatest golfer to ever drawn breath"? Jack Nicklaus? Arnold Palmer? How about in 2006? That Tiger Woods guy is pretty good. Face it, there are greats but there will never be "the greatest".

Originally Posted by michael drums

Fact is, he was the greatest drummer to have ever drawn breath. Not my quote. Gene Krupas'.
Play on!

[onemat]

Originally Posted by mlehnertz

Fact WAS, not IS, and even that is subjective... Gene Krupa died in 1973. Could Gene's OPINION have changed if he had remained alive another 33 years and heard Colaiuta or Weckl or any of the other "modern greats"? I think so.

In 1973 who was "the greatest golfer to ever drawn breath"? Jack Nicklaus? Arnold Palmer? How about in 2006? That Tiger Woods guy is pretty good. Face it, there are greats but there will never be "the greatest".

Have a sense of humor when you read this. All opinions being subjective. Buddy had a long history of learning new styles of drumming. In 1968 he began to play big band arrangements of rock, soul and other popular music. He could play the latest styles of drumming and usually embellish them with killer fills with no effort. His versions of Mercy Mercy and Ode To Billie Joe come to mind. So based on his history and the type of drummer he was, if Buddy was alive today, I believe he could achieve anything Colaiuta or Weckl could come up with and probably go one better, just my opinion.
As for Golf, the greatest Golfer (and pool player) was W.C.
Fields. Nobody cheated like he could and there hasn't been anyone funnier to watch cheating his way through a game. :)
Matt

Originally Posted by onemat

Have a sense of humor when you read this. All opinions being subjective. Buddy had a long history of learning new styles of drumming. In 1968 he began to play big band arrangements of rock, soul and other popular music. He could play the latest styles of drumming and usually embellish them with killer fills with no effort. His versions of Mercy Mercy and Ode To Billie Joe come to mind. So based on his history and the type of drummer he was, if Buddy was alive today, I believe he could achieve anything Colaiuta or Weckl could come up with and probably go one better, just my opinion.
As for Golf, the greatest Golfer (and pool player) was W.C.
Fields. Nobody cheated like he could and there hasn't been anyone funnier to watch cheating his way through a game. :)
Matt

Absolutely 100% right on target with that answer, onemat. No doubt about Buddys' abilities. Yes, he could have and would have been able to "go one better". He was doin' that his whole life. It may be just opinion, but the proof is in the pudding. Look what he achieved. Playing for 70+ years at "his" level. NO ONE, to this day, has his resume'. Period. Thanks onemat! Play On!

Oh, and about the sense of humor...Well Said! Great examples, too...

Originally Posted by mlehnertz

Fact WAS, not IS, and even that is subjective... Gene Krupa died in 1973. Could Gene's OPINION have changed if he had remained alive another 33 years and heard Colaiuta or Weckl or any of the other "modern greats"? I think so.

In 1973 who was "the greatest golfer to ever drawn breath"? Jack Nicklaus? Arnold Palmer? How about in 2006? That Tiger Woods guy is pretty good. Face it, there are greats but there will never be "the greatest".

In your opinion, of course...

[toteman2]

Would it be possible for someone to share or direct me to some of Buddy's work outside of the Big Band Swing genre? Is there any recorded material?

[mikejames]

Often, Buddy performed tunes with just the trio portion of his band, featuring his favorite players. And... Often Buddy would feature one or more soloists in long stretches, with the rest of the band either just sitting, or playing percussion "toys". So even with his big bands, all the tunes were not "big band". But, to answer your question...

Buddy's early career included many small groups. "Blues Caravan", for example, is a remarkable album. You can find these by simply typing "Buddy Rich recording" into "Google". Later, Buddy recorded other small group albums, including a period in the 1970's when he briefly abandonded the big band and played in New York with a sextet at the club bearing his name, "Buddy's Place". The first of those albums was "Very Live at Buddy's Place". (available at Barnes & Noble, for example, at http://music.barnesandnoble.com/sear...N=046172410421

Buddy also recorded some European performances with musician friends, including Lionel Hampton. (Check Barnes & Noble, Amazon, etc..)

[toteman2]

Thanks for responding Mike.