The Grand Master Buddy Rich

Originally Posted by nhzoso

Ahhh Buddy Rich, the great drummer with a low life attitude towards people.. What a shmuck. I hope in his day someone actually stood up to him and put him in his place. Maybe even dotted his eye for him. I guarantee he would have remembered Bonham in a whole new light had he said that to his face.

I guarantee Buddy would kick Bonham's ass.

Originally Posted by photon

As great as Bonham was, personally I don't think he is in the same league as Buddy...

That's exactly right! No one else was either.

[chris--byrne]

Originally Posted by NUTHA JASON

i beg to differ. the slang in the midlands of england circa 1970...going down meant it was going well...think of swallowing a pill or drinking a pint... it's going down. just like heavy and phat are compliments these days too.

according to all sources i've come across kieth admired bonzo and they were mates.

j

http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip...03/bonham.html (bottom of the 3rd paragraph is where I read this)

"They'll go over like a Lead Zepplin" was what Moon actually said, not "go down like a lead zepplin"

The comment seemed to be negative, but I have heard people use the phrse "went down well" so I guess you could well be correct.

[intooder]

Originally Posted by NUTHA JASON

i think the arguement is a moot point. we will never know...and they were different styles.

btw, bonham and moon were friends and 'going down like a lead balloon is a compliment. when a gig goes down it means it is going well. git down ya'll. kieth could see the ingredients were all there for a super group....he knew they would be a sensation.

j

Thanks for clarifying that, Nutha. I was always under the impression that that statement (by moon) had a negative connotation, and that he never really regarded them as a band that would make it (until they actually made it, of course).

[Danny]

mikejames just about summed up everything.

[KR3]

I can see JB being a fan of BR but not the other way around. I love both drummers and I really don't think BR cared too much about JB's talent. Lots of JB grooves and style cam from Jazz. My flame suit is on...go ahead.

[NUTHA JASON]

no i agree. but then i don't think buddy thought much of anybody else for that matter.

he probably had only a grudging respect for his top contempories like shaughnessey and krupa.

j

[dothecrunge]

Originally Posted by intooder

Thanks for clarifying that, Nutha. I was always under the impression that that statement (by moon) had a negative connotation, and that he never really regarded them as a band that would make it (until they actually made it, of course).

It is a negative connotation. Don't take it as truth just because Nutha said it. I've never heard/read anywhere where that comment was construed as positive.

When Keith heard who Page had hired as a band, he laughed and said they'll go down like a lead Zeppelin. How anyone thinks that's a positive statement is beyond me.

[bonham990]

In " A thunder of drums " the biography on John Bonham it was said that Bonham looked up to Buddy and idolized him. At one gig in New York i think they said, Bonham did a solo that was based on Buddy Rich with Big snare roll and all that. I personally think bonham would beat him in a solo battle because bonham has the speed in the hands, the feet he has the power and hes very original not saying Buddy Rich wasnt.

[dothecrunge]

Originally Posted by bonham990

In " A thunder of drums " the biography on John Bonham it was said that Bonham looked up to Buddy and idolized him. At one gig in New York i think they said, Bonham did a solo that was based on Buddy Rich with Big snare roll and all that. I personally think bonham would beat him in a solo battle because bonham has the speed in the hands, the feet he has the power and hes very original not saying Buddy Rich wasnt.

Carnegie Hall, 1969.

[Bonham to the moon]

well Keith Moon recorded with Page before bonham was even in the picture, so i would think that upon moon finding out that page started a band with bonham he would be maybe a little frustrated and i wouldnt think that with moon, competing for gigs against zep, would be too quick to compliment.

[djp132]

Got WAY too many responses and requests for this one to pass it up. It's a short video, bout 4 and a half minutes.

Feedback is appreciated.

www.derrickpope.net/buddyrichsticktrick.wmv

Thanks
Derrick

[Drummerboy3940]

great video man. i will try to learn that trick. its really cool

[samthebeat]

nice one derrick. I have allways wonderd how he did that. Good job

[foursticks]

Ah thank you so much! I've been puzzling over that one for months!

[Wegadrummer]

Thanks, always cool to see some showmanship.

[pete_on_drums]

thats really helpful, thx a lot.
how do you like the carbohsticks? did you use them because they are so loud when you hit them together, or just because you use them normally?
thx

Great video, I would have liked a backsticking one more though.
I see you have a 'technique master' title now. Well deserved.

[mitchel1]

Has anyone seen the post on the Official Buddy Rich site written by Cathy Rich? Someone was selling rare cds and dvds of Buddy Rich on Legends.com but i guess there was no agreement with the Rich family, so she told the guy to stop selling them. In a way i agree,but if your familiar with the slow way Cathy runs the site,and how slow she releases New /Old Buddy material. I mean if she just bought out alot of the footage from the people who have the tapes, she wouldnt be running into people trying to make money from her father. Does anyone agree?

[low-tech]

http://www.jazzprofessional.com/inte...y%20Rich_3.htm

heres a bunch of interviews with buddy rich

alot of people think hes arrogant, a jerk, egotistical and so on

the only thing i can say is his interviews are interesting because he says whats on his mind, id rather hear out a person who calls things as they see them than someone who is just paying lip service,giving the "right" answer as opposed to the "real" answer to questions, be it good or bad.

[Class A Drummer]

there is something we all have to except about buddy,

He is arrogant, and a jerk, but awsome at playing jazzzzzzz.

Ooooh, fiesty. Just kidding, I agree with you, he comes across as a jerk, but anyone would in his position (and do).

Think of all the people that get annoyed being around joey and travis lovers. Then put that into the context of yourself being one of the greatest musicians ever. How much more would it annoy you?

[mikejames]

Derrick,

You're killing me, man...

Your videos are, in my opinion, the best way for these things to be taught. There are certain individuals who like to portray these things as "deep, mysterious secrets", which can only be divulged after we purchase the "Secrets of ... (whatever)" videos for $50 each, because after all, learning how to play drums should be very serious, tedious, expensive and above all, mysterious. (Not!)

Thank you for your correct and very down to Earth approach to these things. I know they'll help a lot of drummers... especially younger players, and possibly help them keep a sense of humor and humility too.

Do more!

[intooder]

Derrick, you da man!! I especially got a kick out of the end with you spinning around and simulating a slo-mo. Thanks again and keep 'em coming.

[Class A Drummer]

Originally Posted by Bernhard

He was arrogant - with good reason and he was NO jerk - he was surrounded by jerks.

But YOU are arrogant too - with no reason and not so awsome at playing jazz. Slow down a little bit.....please

Bernhard

Bernhard, i know people who have met buddy, they all called him a jerk. i also read an old old old interview, buddy seemed to be a jerk to me. btw, who has surrounded buddy that is a jerk?

*edit- also i never said i was awsome at playing jazz. Hell im not even remotly good. im just over the level of complete novice.

[Class A Drummer]

Derrick,

Great Job, that is an insanely awsome trick. What makes me angry (not really angry just kind of a "why didnt i think of that" kinda of feeling) is that after all your vids it hits me that every one of these is so simple. with just a little bit of think i cud do this.

once again, GREAT JOB.

[ewanlaing]

Originally Posted by infernal drummer

im pretty sure that every drummer no matter what style or type of music they play could add more drums :D IF they feel like it

spot on, as the new ed shaugnessy (sp) video proves. i really like how he incorporates jazz onto all those drums. i think a lot of the things buddy did needed a very close small set though. no doubt he would master a monster kit, but i think his style was at home behind a smaller kit, with fewer cymbals. it would be swell though, to see him play a big kit.

[mikejames]

Most of us like to get along with our friends, and with our fellow musicians. That's admirable, and the world certainly could use more tolerance and diversity.

But...
Many organizations, including bands, have allowed the quality of their product to suffer due to "not wanting to be rude", or "not wanting to offend anyone", or because "the trumpet player is a good friend", or whatever.

Buddy placed the quality of his product (both his personal playing, and his band's) first, and accepted nothing less than everyone's best effort. If their best effort wasn't good enough, in his opinion, then he would first try and get them some help, and if that didn't work, he would replace them. Most of us aren't that confrontational, and so we perceive these people as "jerks", or whatever other term you want to use.

But ask anyone who worked with Buddy successfully over a long period of time what kind of man he was, and they will praise him highly for his dedication to excellence. I am an audience member who sat in front of Buddy's bands on many occasions, thrilled with what I heard, and also became casual friends with several of his players. They reinforce these ideas. Buddy did this in the face of tough financial times, resistance from the music world in general, and health problems (back problems and heart trouble) that would have most of lying at home in bed.

Everyone in a successful and/or authoritative position will always be criticized as being a "tyrant". It's universal, and it's even what kids say about their own parents, when they're disciplined. See the many articles around the net by people like Steve Marcus, who worked with Buddy for over 10 years, and you'll find that these great musicians didn't think Buddy was a "jerk". They loved and respected him.

The music that Buddy and his bands left us is remarkable, and to my ears, the standard is so high that few have even come close since his passing. I respect and love the guy, as much as any fan can, and miss the spirit he provided greatly.

How many of us are strong enough to propel that kind of a band for that length of time? (even disregarding Buddy's personal talent) If such people existed today, we'd all be talking about them, instead of Buddy.

[mikejames]

New BR concert clips, from the 1984 Berlin Jazz Fest are posted on my page at http://www.mikejamesjazz.com/br_clips.html These are NICE ones, sent to me by drummer friend, Dag Markhus.

Enjoy! (free, as always, of course)

[gretsch223]

Is Mike James Buddy's brother or something?

[fossilhead]

By most accounts I've read Buddy used Emperor heads with ambassadors for resonants, but, sources on the net are not always so reliable. From what I've seen on DVD's and the like Buddy's sound wasn't always the same anyway. Switching from Slings to Ludwig to Rogers and back and forth. Also changing bass drum sizes from 26 to 24 to 22 and back.

I think the main thing about BR's sound is the fact that nobody sounds like BR.

[mikejames]

I can guarantee you that the Emperor and Ambassodor thing is wrong.

I know about the Diplomats (MUCH thinner) from interviews with Buddy, spokesmen at Remo, and from physically seeing his drums on many occasions.

[BigSexyPanda]

i dont know if this was already talked about in the thread, but basically I was watching this video from Tiger Bill, he has this website he gives free lessons and stuff and in one of his videos he mentions how Buddy Rich wasn't fast. He never had the real speed, he was just really good at tricks, he would add in those extra accents with his bass drum or something to sound fast, but he actually wasn't. I don't know, but I was wondering if anyone else heard this before too? and wondering if Tiger Bill really does know his stuff, he really seems like he does to me, but it might just be me...

[mikejames]

ALL judgements about ANY art form, including music, are subjective. That is... If you like it, it's great. and if you don't, it's not. No amount of qualification can "prove" that one person is "better" than another. The audience can't be convinced that someone is better or worse than any other person, except by "what THEY like".

If "speed" is the only issue, then that's something that can be mechanically calibrated and measured. But... It has NOTHING to do with music or art, in my opinion. I consider the issue of "fastest" to be a very shallow barometer of musical integrity. (although it can certainly be exciting, at times)

Buddy Rich, along with the many incredible writers he utilized, and the musicians in his bands, gave this planet a HUGE number of tremendously exciting live and recorded performances, which you can buy and listen to, and make your own judgement.

In my opinion, Buddy, his writers, his recording methods, (mostly live) and his players,have produced some of the most timeless, hip, sensitive, technical, "firey", emotional, "funky", "swinging", dynamic, and historically important music ever performed by anyone. Opinions will vary.... That's mine. It's one thing to "play a thing". It's quite another to INVENT it. And... It's not "what" Buddy played, as much as "how" he played it.

If you would like to hear some live (and unpublished) recordings of Buddy and his bands (free) visit my page at http://www.mikejamesjazz.com/br_clips.html

I feel very lucky to have experienced many of those beautiful performances. To this day, Buddy's performances strike a certain nerve with me that no one else approaches.

[mattsmith]

Originally Posted by BigSexyPanda

i dont know if this was already talked about in the thread, but basically I was watching this video from Tiger Bill, he has this website he gives free lessons and stuff and in one of his videos he mentions how Buddy Rich wasn't fast. He never had the real speed, he was just really good at tricks, he would add in those extra accents with his bass drum or something to sound fast, but he actually wasn't. I don't know, but I was wondering if anyone else heard this before too? and wondering if Tiger Bill really does know his stuff, he really seems like he does to me, but it might just be me...

First of all, Mike James' website is great and what he said about how Buddy Rich invented this whole direction wer'e talkin' about now is dead on. And in jazz, invention is always the bigger deal than perfecting the invention. This is important to understand 'cause there are some good guys on this forum who think that Buddy Rich is like some relic of the past, who like Gene Krupa created the idea of speed with musicianship, but could never compete with the mutant superheros who have come from that style in today's time like Vinnie C or Virgil Donati, or Weckl.

There was even a guy on the Donati site who said that Virgil would grind Rich into dust. My dad looked at that and said "Any idiot can write on the Internet." To me, Buddy Rich is definately more important because he was the real creator, and the only reason guys like that exist in the first place. And I say this without even thinking about the technique or the obvious greatness of guys like Vinnie C and to some extent Donati.

Now when it comes to this speed issue. I have read about Tiger Bill sayin' this and I know Art Verdi believes this too. And when it comes to raw speed like just goin full out with rudiments, they know what they are talkin' about 'cause they are 2 of the fastest drummers to ever walk the Earth. But those tricks they talk about Rich doing are to me part of the creation that made Rich the great innovative drummer he will always be.

About where you say Tiger Bill feels Rich really wasn't that fast, what I believe he is really sayin' is that in his opinion Rich is not the fastest to ever live, and that's a different thing altogether. Remember when you are talkin' about speed opinions that come from top 10 WFD guys, your talkin' about absolutes.

But I don't think speed is what made Rich the great player anyway. A long time ago I was told to listen to super early Rich to get the true meaning of how great he was. Like listen to the Artie Shaw band when he played with it in the late 1930s. Then listen to it the year before he joined. The Rich groove made that band a thousand times better and the players are all better 'cause he's there. it was really the first time anybody had ever heard real independence combined with a tight and crisp high-hat. In other words, the start of modern drumming.

On the flip side listen to that Tommy Dorsey guy's band when Rich left. It was never the same. And nobody played fast on that band. His speed was only a piece of the puzzle.

It's funny, Rich has never been my very favorite. I am more into Elvin Jones and Tony Williams. But I always feel like Rich needs to be defended because of some of the opinions that are out there, like how bein' a nasty guy applies to his playing, or how some guy doesn't like the sound of his snare on a West Side Story video. To me the bigger question is why people judge stuff based on these things.

[mikejames]

No.

But Buddy was awarded an honorary Doctorate for his accomplishments in music, from Berklee Colege of Music.

Righltfully so.

[Hummada]

Who ever said he was surrounded by jerks(at least by the people that called him jerk,arrogent,or what ever),I agree 100%! These people who call him a jerk behind his back should take a look in the mirror. There should be a certain level of respect because you can not say any thing to his face(or behind his back!) since he has passed on. Anywho...

I will agree with any one that thinks he is the best that ever set behing the drums. Every little gracefull note that Buddy played was purposely to be played as music. I will also agree with who ever said that if any of the top players today were to battle him,they would get smoked! And if you were to ask any of these top players of today if they would get smoked,almost all of them would agree to that.

[adrian]

Originally Posted by bigbang

you just said what i've been saying,His arrogence and ego got in his way.buddy rarely practiced (if at all) but if he had let it go (his arrogence)he would have made a fine rock drummer.It's not rocket science it's drums.And the analogy with the drunk driving is moot and makes no sense.It's not fair to judge anyone because they refuse to do something it's their choice ..leave it be.

Why rock? Dude, the best Jazz drummers can play rock better than the most well known rock drummers.

[toteman2]

Originally Posted by adrian

Why rock? Dude, the best Jazz drummers can play rock better than the most well known rock drummers.

And where did you come up with that? Jazz and Rock are 2 very different things that require different feel. I don't understand where this mindset comes from. I guess it really depends on what type of "rock" drumming we're talking about.

[brittc89]

Originally Posted by Class A Drummer

there is something we all have to except about buddy,

He is arrogant, and a jerk, but awsome at playing jazzzzzzz.

Ah ha ha ha ha ha! You make me laugh! I love how you call him arrogant and a jerk. You are the best, for real!