Drum fill mentality

[Volentry]

Basically when you jam, either a free jam or a song, do you consciously think before you play (like what are you going to do), or do you just let loose and don't think at all?

Problem with me is, when I just to let loose, I play all singles and 16th notes. Simple stuff. But when I play thinking what I play beforehand, I can put licks like 6 stroke roll licks, or whatever lick I've been practicing into my playing.

There was this article I read that said if you think beforehand, you aren't playing emotionally (which is what I strive for). But even great players like Gavin Harrison admits to thinking what he plays before the fill itself, he says it's like "okay I'm going to play maybe... a roll leading into a triplet", and that kind of stuff.

So which way really works? I've been very caught up with this issue as I'm working with my fills as it's the one thing I really need work on.

[Fuo]

I'm still new... so take w. a grain of salt, but it seems that if you keep practicing the "hard stuff" and consciously work it into your playing, then it will become more natural, and that's what will start coming out when you "let loose." Keep working on new things, and your library will keep growing. I'm already seeing this to be true after less than a year (with beats and fills).

There was a thread awhile ago about having a "default beat". Maybe look that thread up, same idea; just replace "beat" with "fill".

[droveto]

Record yourself both ways and listen back. You'll probably find that thinking ahead and arranging the fills in your head while you're on auto-pilot with the groove will work best, but if you're not on auto-pilot with the groove, then you're primary functioning of communicating a pulse with your audience might get lost which is a bigger sin than a boring fill.

[720hours World Record]

Originally Posted by Volentry

Basically when you jam, either a free jam or a song, do you consciously think before you play (like what are you going to do), or do you just let loose and don't think at all?...

So which way really works? I've been very caught up with this issue as I'm working with my fills as it's the one thing I really need work on.

Each person has to find what works for them. It will just take time to build your "Tool Kit" of fills.

At present (since you made me think of it) I think of the space I have to insert a fill, like "8 beats" then I pull something out of my head that will fit the mood of the playing and that space.

I like to record Bass Guit and Synth patterns on a DAW (I use ProTools) with lots of space so I can practice my fills and grooves. Give it a try if you can.

[Fox622003]

Originally Posted by Volentry

Basically when you jam, either a free jam or a song, do you consciously think before you play (like what are you going to do), or do you just let loose and don't think at all?

Problem with me is, when I just to let loose, I play all singles and 16th notes. Simple stuff. But when I play thinking what I play beforehand, I can put licks like 6 stroke roll licks, or whatever lick I've been practicing into my playing.

There was this article I read that said if you think beforehand, you aren't playing emotionally (which is what I strive for). But even great players like Gavin Harrison admits to thinking what he plays before the fill itself, he says it's like "okay I'm going to play maybe... a roll leading into a triplet", and that kind of stuff.

So which way really works? I've been very caught up with this issue as I'm working with my fills as it's the one thing I really need work on.

As you said, everytime you see Gavin playing one of those undecipherable monster fills - - he's played them before. I'm sure he can play some stuff that's definitely not easy, and naturally, but the big things, they've been practiced for sure. Maybe not the exact voicings, but that's easy to improvise once you have the accents and subdivisions you want to play down.
Personally, I prepare a song note for note when playing live, of course, I don't prepare the bass drum melody, hi hat rolls and barks, ghost notes, fills in the middle that aren't important. But the main idea for the beats, the main accents, any important fills I want to do, or a particular passage that HAS TO BE like that, I plan beforehand, to ensure the best possible performance I can give. The more comfortable you are with certain part, the easier it'll be for you to focus on the feel you want to imprint on it, and not the technical aspects.


Fox.

I think both ways work, you just need to identify what fills or licks work within the song you are playing. 16ths and singles are the staple of drum fills. try changing them up with different dyanmics and patterns around the kit for a change of pace maybe so you dont feel you are playing the same thing over and over. Sometimes the simple fills fit a song or jam just as well as a killer one. DOn't stop working on either though.

[jivadayadasa]

Also, you have to remember that drummers like Gavin, for example, have played thousands and thousands of hours and have a tremendous "library" to pull from. Somebody said that difference between good and great is "accents". Dynamics within rolls and fills separate the men from the beasts ;-)

[Boomka]

I "think" about it in the sense that I'm listening to the music leading into the fill and trying to put a fill in there that makes a relevant statement in that context. The last thing I think about is "wouldn't lick #24 from that book I've been studying be cool to play right now..."

There's also some thought put into stickings now and again, because I need to worry about which hand I'm going to finish on and where on the drumkit I'll end up depending on what needs to come next.

[larryace]

I try to think of it less as a fill and more like a set up as to what's going to come. Since I know what's coming, my mind naturally defaults to appropriate set ups for whats coming, whatever I pick depends on my mood, but there are certain fills that are frozen so to speak, that basically don't change, because I like them. Rather than thinking of it as "filling up" space A, I think of it as using space A to punctuate and/or lay down the bed for and/or set the tone for whats coming up. Fills are functional to me. They totally depend on the next part of the song.

Sometimes the best thing to do is don't fill. It depends. Whatever the fill is, it has to have musical relevence. Blowing chops just because you can fit them in usually misses the mark. Whether you feel the fills, or have them worked out ahead of time, takes a back seat to whether the fill sits properly with the song.

You can have a beautiful fill, and play it in such a way that it doesn't work.
I'll give you an example. I record all my gigs and early on, listening back, I would hear what I played and realized that a certain fill I did, didn't work because it was simply too loud in relation to it's context. The next week I played the exact same fill, this time without upping the volume of the fill, and it worked great. I knew it was a good fill, but I learned (from recording/listening back) that there's a bit more to it than the right choice of notes. It has to be played at the right dynamic with the right intention...the right feel behind it, to really shine. If I'm playing it too loud, that's not the right feel.

[Mikecore]

I plan them out ahead of time, most of the time. There are some limited occasions where I'll improv the part, but I grew up with Peart in my brain, and one of the things that stuck was that his fills were as much a signature part of some Rush songs as the guitar or bass parts. Danny Carey does a lot of Tool material this way as well.

The other part of this is that we play this material two or three times a week, so eventually we all settle into things that just seem to work even when we are supposed to be "going off". My guitarist is no different. It's nice to have it all working and ready to go.

Someone else mentioned recording yourself. Absolutely, you should, and even better to record with your band. Even a cheap and dirty recording will allow you to listen back in the calm of your living room (or whatever) and realize whether you are fitting with the music or wrecking it completely.

I've also learned (even after 20 years behind the kit) that taking chances with fills at the show is a dangerous way to play. I ain't no Buddy Rich...so I have to go with what I know on stage, and work on the "amazing" stuff in private.

[alparrott]

Depends on if I am playing a cover, playing a jam, or writing a song and then playing it live.

If I'm playing a cover that has a very definitive fill, i learn the fill and then it's like performing any other section of the drum part: get it as authentic as possible because the audience expects to hear it like the artist performed it.

If I'm playing a jam, it depends on how much space the rest of the band, vocalists, etc. need. I will often tone it down a lot and play simple figures, which require very little forethought.

If I'm writing the part for an original song, I figure out what kind of fill i want at certain parts of a song, and then do it as close to the same way, every time. I try to sound very close to what I recorded.

[con struct]

Originally Posted by Volentry

Basically when you jam, either a free jam or a song, do you consciously think before you play (like what are you going to do), or do you just let loose and don't think at all?

I don't see how you couldn't think before you play. Learning a song is thinking. Remembering when you come in after the intro, for example, that's thinking. And while you're playing, even if it's only jamming, you have to be listening to the rest of the rhythm section, especially the bass player, you have to listen to whoever's soloing, you have to stay alert to and aware of everything that's going on and you have to play the drums while all that's taking place. I don't see how that couldn't be called thinking.

In other words, listening while you play is thinking, and the better you listen the more meaningful your fills will be, the more meaningful everything you play will be.

But I wouldn't say that it's really thinking in the way that one normally thinks, like thinking about what you're going to have for dinner for example. The kind of thing I'm talking about, that kind of alert awareness, that's a learned thing, something that eventually becomes rather instinctive, and learning takes thinking.

The best musicians, in my opinion, are always learning because they're always thinking.

[brentcn]

Originally Posted by con struct

I don't see how you couldn't think before you play. Learning a song is thinking. Remembering when you come in after the intro, for example, that's thinking. And while you're playing, even if it's only jamming, you have to be listening to the rest of the rhythm section, especially the bass player, you have to listen to whoever's soloing, you have to stay alert to and aware of everything that's going on and you have to play the drums while all that's taking place. I don't see how that couldn't be called thinking.

In other words, listening while you play is thinking, and the better you listen the more meaningful your fills will be, the more meaningful everything you play will be.

But I wouldn't say that it's really thinking in the way that one normally thinks, like thinking about what you're going to have for dinner for example. The kind of thing I'm talking about, that kind of alert awareness, that's a learned thing, something that eventually becomes rather instinctive, and learning takes thinking.

The best musicians, in my opinion, are always learning because they're always thinking.

+1!

Those 6 stroke roll licks need not only more practice, but also more use in musical situations. After that, they'll become instantly accessible, and won't require the deliberate thought it once took to learn the lick, and when and how to use it. It sounds to me like you can play these 6 stroke roll licks by themselves all day long, but perhaps you've skimped on applying them in many different musical situations?

Anyways, once you have the application down, it's been shown to be counterproductive to think deliberately about something you already know very well. The faculties of the brain involved in deliberate, logical thinking are simply not quick enough to provide adequate information to the rest of your nervous system. You should instead rely on your snap-judgement and instincts, which will access that which you have learned at an incredible rate. As you might imagine, this is sometimes VERY difficult in a high-pressure situation!

If your "instincts" are not leading you to good results, then you simply need more practice and/or more/different experience. It doesn't mean you should start thinking differently!

For example, professional golfers often think to themselves a simple word when it's time to make that 20-foot championship putt. They are NOT thinking: "okay, remember to have good posture, and to grip the club this or that way, etc.". Usually they are coached to think a simple thought, like "balance".

[Deathmetalconga]

Originally Posted by Volentry

Basically when you jam, either a free jam or a song, do you consciously think before you play (like what are you going to do), or do you just let loose and don't think at all?

Problem with me is, when I just to let loose, I play all singles and 16th notes. Simple stuff. But when I play thinking what I play beforehand, I can put licks like 6 stroke roll licks, or whatever lick I've been practicing into my playing.

There was this article I read that said if you think beforehand, you aren't playing emotionally (which is what I strive for). But even great players like Gavin Harrison admits to thinking what he plays before the fill itself, he says it's like "okay I'm going to play maybe... a roll leading into a triplet", and that kind of stuff.

So which way really works? I've been very caught up with this issue as I'm working with my fills as it's the one thing I really need work on.

Yes, to play with emotion, I think you need to not think. The problem is, if you don't do it correctly, you will just screw up. That's where you need to practice, so that you have completely absorbed the technical things you are trying to do and they are second nature to you.

People who speak a language fluently don't need to think about how they produce sounds with their mouth or string words together or raise or lower their voice; they immediately and accurately do these things, even in advanced ways like poetry. It needs to be the same with music.

[Volentry]

Thank you for the responses, it has been more than enlightening.

I have been putting them in musical situations and using them as fills. Though I've only been practicing one 6 stroke roll fill regularly (simply playing roll on the snare, putting first note on tom, last two notes on toms and that kinda stuff) I have been able to put that into my playing. I wouldn't call it 'okay I'm going to go RLLRRLR etc', but more of telling myself to play the 6 stroke roll motion since it's programmed into my muscle memory.

This is hard to put into words, I know. But I think it means I've got that basic 6 stroke roll lick down.

So now that I got that over with, I have a question about single stroke fills. Supposing the fills are all 16th/32nd notes, one steady stream of them. But when we phrase and orchestrate them differently, they are counted as separate licks, right? So do you practice these single stroke fills just like you would, for example a 6 stroke roll lick? Because I don't, and even though I listen to Keith Moon or Mitch Mitchell and listen to their single stroke licks which I can play, I don't find myself playing those licks at all...

[brentcn]

Originally Posted by Volentry

So now that I got that over with, I have a question about single stroke fills. Supposing the fills are all 16th/32nd notes, one steady stream of them. But when we phrase and orchestrate them differently, they are counted as separate licks, right? So do you practice these single stroke fills just like you would, for example a 6 stroke roll lick? Because I don't, and even though I listen to Keith Moon or Mitch Mitchell and listen to their single stroke licks which I can play, I don't find myself playing those licks at all...

Phrasing and orchestrating can mean different things. To a drummer, orchestrating usually means "voicing" (transferring parts of a combination onto other surfaces). Phrasing usually refers to which moments you are starting/stopping the combinations (for example, do the 16ths begin on beat 1 or beat 2?).

I would say that orchestrating and phrasing continuous notes of a single value (16ths, 32nds, triplets) is ONE skill, to be explored and perfected over time. Playing singles around the kit is pretty common fare, search YouTube for some examples.

Careful with that Mitch Mitchell, he has a nasty habit of making paradiddles sound like singles.

[Davo-London]

I've asked the question of what are you thinking of when you're playing a solo to Benny Greb and others and the response is always Nothing. I can only presume that when you are in a state of zen and you have an extensive lick backlog, then indeed you can afford to think of nothing.

However, mortals like my goodself need to do a lot of thinking and concentration to make sure you stay at the same BPM for a start. But as Con Struct says you should be listening. If there is singing going on during Your fill, then er you shouldn't be filling!

Davo

[k-train78]

When jamming with my band at a practice session, I like to not really know what Im going to do...allows for more feel and natural responses. Then if its likeable as a possible future song of ours, Ill take what I did in the jam and expand on it and write more intricate parts and fills for it, even though I get pretty insane and go macho Mike Portnoy sometimes =P

[mikeveny]

Originally Posted by Volentry

Basically when you jam, either a free jam or a song, do you consciously think before you play (like what are you going to do), or do you just let loose and don't think at all?

Problem with me is, when I just to let loose, I play all singles and 16th notes. Simple stuff. But when I play thinking what I play beforehand, I can put licks like 6 stroke roll licks, or whatever lick I've been practicing into my playing.

There was this article I read that said if you think beforehand, you aren't playing emotionally (which is what I strive for). But even great players like Gavin Harrison admits to thinking what he plays before the fill itself, he says it's like "okay I'm going to play maybe... a roll leading into a triplet", and that kind of stuff.

So which way really works? I've been very caught up with this issue as I'm working with my fills as it's the one thing I really need work on.

1. When you practice at home, think through the fills that are practicing. You can try different ideas, listen back, and evaluate.

2. When you perform, let it come naturally. Trust yourself. When you trust yourself, the right stuff comes at the right time. If it was only a quarter note fill, then that's what it was meant to be.

Keep in mind that a quarter note fill can sound better than a sixteenth note triplet fill, if done at the right place, at the right time.

Good luck.

[BillBachman]

Both ways work, the key is to not force a fill for the fill's sake. As your vocabulary expands you'll have more fills which will pop out on their own without much or any forethought.

[larryace]

Bill said it all. The best fills just come out naturally, with little thought.

There's a lot to be said for leaving a fill out too. Sometimes just a simple cymbal crash (or none at all!) at the transition point is more effective than a marking of the transition point with a fill. Kinda like doing something other than the obvious, meaning keep it straight, rather than fill.

More and more, I'm getting into the mentality of not doing the obvious, which many times just means keeping it straight. For instance when the whole band is hitting accents, rather than hit the accents along with them, I just be the straight man. It gives the accents some context, and the counterpoint serves to make it sound bigger. They already have the accents covered. It would be redundant for me to do them too. Of course there are times where you definitely do have to hit the accents, but I'm always on the lookout for those other times when it would sound more interesting to just keep on keeping the beat. Fills are better underused than overused in my world.

What gets me is the drummers who fill the song up with useless fills at every transition point, and then when it comes time for the big ending, where it's really OK to go for it, they just limp through it. Different priorities I guess lol.

[JoeLackey]

I always thought the best fills just come without over thinking them. I think that's where a lot of guys get too stressed or too aggravated at themselves - they over think. Just let the musical juices flow and don't try over analyze.

[jivadayadasa]

As usual, great comments here from seasoned veterans. I would add that if you are developing your part for an original song, it is challenging, satisfying, and beneficial for all to work it out and play it the same way every time. It becomes an integral part of the song, without which, it just wouldn't be the same song.

When I was in my very early teens, I was taken to a Rush concert. I had listened to the music a lot and "knew" the songs well. It was astonishing to me that Neil played his parts virtually note for note and played his "part" just like the other guys were doing. It kills me when I see bands where the drummer essentially keeps time but plays something different from gig to gig. The guitarist would be fired for not playing his parts consistently. Especially with well-known rock tunes. There are signature fills that just have to be played or it's not the song. (and yes, I have heard countless bootlegs with variations and embellishments by great drummers, just saying structure is good for us beginners)

[Zickosdrummer]

Playing any musical instrument is like speaking a language. The notes are the letters and the rudiments or scales are the words. You can't speak a language fluently untill you can put the words together. Unfortunately, I'm a "goo goo ga ga" man myself.