DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > Off Topic Lounge

Off Topic Lounge All Discussions Not Related To Drumming

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #81  
Old 02-15-2011, 10:53 AM
Duckenheimer's Avatar
Duckenheimer Duckenheimer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Ireland
Posts: 435
Default Re: HIP HOP

I'm often turned off by the lyrics; no matter how musically innovative. The lyrics are just a bit too much in the forefront a lot of the time for me to ignore.

But The Roots, Me-Shell Ndgeocello... these guys are the pinnacle of musical quality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
Although I like the old school guys more than the current batch, I still find it interesting that so many continue to diss this stuff with the same 30 year old insults. Sure you can like ot hate anything you want, but I think it's silly to continue to wear out the illiteracy angle when a lot of these guys are some of the most literate people I know.

I have no rouble with the literacy part. I'm sure they can sit down and write or collaborate with others to write lyrics, but when they sing it I can't understand it. Call it ebonics or whatever but they are not pronouncing the words they have written down. There are the hand gestures that are just comical. Left hand out if front with the fingers all curled but the thumb and little finger, or grabbing the crotch. Micorphone in the right hand holding it parallel to the ground. Everyone of them does this same thing. there is no variety. How am I supposed to like something I can't stand to watch or listen to. The original question was dyu all like it or ????? My answer is no.
Rubbish. Like in ANY criticism in ANY form of music; a bunch of them do, but this over assertive generalisation is still rubbish.

The best rappers (by definition, pretty much) have superb enunciation - strongly accented ebonics do tend to be present, sure. It is just communicated via a different dialect than you are used to.
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 02-15-2011, 10:59 AM
Duckenheimer's Avatar
Duckenheimer Duckenheimer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Ireland
Posts: 435
Default Re: HIP HOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by daredrummer View Post
First off a little grammar would be nice. I literally spent 4 minutes trying to figure out what your post said when it should have taken 4 seconds
^^^ Lacks street skills.

:D

Quote:
Secondly, rap and hip hop have their place, and the world of drumming is not one of them.
?uestlove, Tony Royster Jr, Zoro etc would disagree with you... And of course the millions of listeners and drummers that they inspire.

And even in the machine driven side, we're talking several decades of focused experimentation on rhythm and beat.

Quote:
On second thought they have no place. I can't believe people listen to that...
Actually, they have a place - on my ipod.
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 02-15-2011, 11:11 AM
mattsmith's Avatar
mattsmith mattsmith is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Most Everywhere
Posts: 1,912
Default Re: HIP HOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frost View Post
Metal is incredibly diverse, I doubt your idea or knowledge of the subject covers a lot of it, there is stuff within the metal spectrum that is also within the jazz spectrum, the whole genre is rife with avant-garde and diverse influences, that is where so many of the arguments stem from.

You mentioned not pigeon-holing things, but then completely contradicted yourself by pigeon-holing metal lovers. A lot of metal guys do not care what the jazz crowd think, and listen to/like jazz. Some care, but there are jazz musicians who are under the impression metal is nothing but mindless noise and promotes hatred and violence. Plenty of metal musicians also play traditional styles of jazz or classical, I know a cellist from the Adelaide Symphony Orchestra who plays in a doom/death band.

I don't think metal is self-destructive at all, some metal-heads/bands/artists are, obviously when some people are playing with fire, pouring out emotions, they're going to get burnt, it is the same with any music, or even film, that plays heavily on intensity.

A lot of metal is very progressive, free-thinking and full of musical open-mindedness. I'm repeating myself with this second example, but the violinist of local Melbourne metal band Ne Obliviscaris has a Bachelor of Honours in Performance Music and recently spent time with Jean-Luc Ponty when he was in Australia.

I think you'll find stereotyping all metal fans a mistake, if anything, I'm a testament to that, I listen to a lot of different music in any given day, including some very heavy metal and some quite mild jazz and post rock. I was playing A Silver Mt. Zion yesterday, along with Miles Davis, Chet Baker and Isahn (the solo project of the frontman from Emperor, a very big name in the Norwegian black metal scene).

The root of all this was me trying to make a point that not all Hip Hop is what you hear on the radio and not all Metal is like what you are exposed to.
Actually had I said pigeonhole things your rant may have gone somewhere.

However, I actually said I've always found it amazing how their hardcore aficianados pigeonhole the genres with the same ferocity of the jazz aficiandos.

If you study that comment a little harder than you did the first time you'll see I'm NOT saying all metal anything. The word all was your insertion not mine.

Also understand that I never make a comment on this forum that I don't either investigate or know something about first. Your assumptive opening comments about what you believe I know or don't know was poor tact and simply misinformed. Of course I know metal is diverse. My discussion revolved around the behavior of pigeoholers. Interestingly you rarely see this kind of pigeonholing in classical music and it's one of the reasons their fans don't come off so badly on the Internet in much the way of the jazz and metal aficianados. For example you don't see impressionists questioning the authenticity of Haydn classicists or try to determine if The Three Tenors are the real deal or just a poppy adaptation. It's just classical music...period.

Come on Frost...you're better than this. You know as well as I do that hardcore (meaning behavior not genre specific) metal aficianados are the most vocal and demonstrative proponents of metal... and like the goofy jazz aficianados are bad for business.
__________________
I endorse Zildjian sticks because I like them.
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 02-15-2011, 12:53 PM
Hellwyck
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: HIP HOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattsmith View Post
You know as well as I do that hardcore (meaning behavior not genre specific) metal aficianados are the most vocal and demonstrative proponents of metal... and are bad for business.
I - as wellas alot of people I know are pretty hard-core metal fans (as well as a "hardcore metal" fans) and we don't get all elitist or pigeon hole bands.
Yes, we call Municipal Waste "Thrash metal" and Napalm Death "Grind" but that because they are!

I think you're mistaking the "elitist yet loudest" minority for the "true fan base" majority.
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 02-15-2011, 01:13 PM
Frost's Avatar
Frost Frost is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 933
Default Re: HIP HOP

the mindsets of jazz and metal lover was what I meant by stereotyping, to imply there is a certain mindset to applies to metal lovers. That was the core of my "rant".

By things I meant your comment on learning from the jazz crowd, who stereotype and cripple the genre, I'll watch my wording in future.

I agree with that point, my original post which sparked all of this was display my distaste for blanket statements such as, I dislike metal, as metal means a lot of things, and it's quite possible you do dislike most metal, but that doesn't mean you wont hear something you like.

You mentioned hardcore aficionados in a conversation about metal, I presume you mean metal aficionados, as it is a common mistake people make.

Hardcore isn't metal, by hardcore I believe you mean the genre (often confused with metal) not a hardcore fan, in the sense of the word, like a hardcore sports fan. I think you understand where I made that mistake.

I know they are bad for business and give metal a bad name, I do not disagree with you on this.

Yet another misunderstanding.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mattsmith View Post
Actually had I said pigeonhole things your rant may have gone somewhere.

However, I actually said I've always found it amazing how their hardcore aficianados pigeonhole the genres with the same ferocity of the jazz aficiandos.

If you study that comment a little harder than you did the first time you'll see I'm NOT saying all metal anything. The word all was your insertion not mine.

Also understand that I never make a comment on this forum that I don't either investigate or know something about first. Your assumptive opening comments about what you believe I know or don't know was poor tact and simply misinformed. Of course I know metal is diverse. My discussion revolved around the behavior of pigeoholers. Interestingly you rarely see this kind of pigeonholing in classical music and it's one of the reasons their fans don't come off so badly on the Internet in much the way of the jazz and metal aficianados. For example you don't see impressionists questioning the authenticity of Haydn classicists or try to determine if The Three Tenors are the real deal or just a poppy adaptation. It's just classical music...period.

Come on Frost...you're better than this. You know as well as I do that hardcore (meaning behavior not genre specific) metal aficianados are the most vocal and demonstrative proponents of metal... and like the goofy jazz aficianados are bad for business.
__________________
A disquiet mind at therapy with the music.

Last edited by Frost; 02-15-2011 at 01:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 02-15-2011, 01:29 PM
Frost's Avatar
Frost Frost is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 933
Default Re: HIP HOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellwyck View Post
Someone I used to know got called "the leading authority in metal"
We called him "an elitist prick".

I just gave my personal opinion on a band.
And that is what counts obviously. Just because you don't find them heavy, does not mean that others do not.

Quote:

The people who call Linkin Park "abrasive" usually think Nothing Else Matters is the heaviest Metallica get to.
A lot of people think Linkin Park are shit.
I agree, on the point of Linkin Park being shit, but that doesn't mean that some music that is considered metal is not accessible to ears that hard commercial rock, whether it be Linkin Park, Skillet, System Of A Down, Disturbed or any other band along that vein, is not.

Quote:

You mentioned a ton of death metal bands in your first reply to me, then you mentioned Pantera.
I have no idea who you are or how your mind works or your background in heavy music so I assumed you were classing Pantera in with Morbid Angel.
Your original post to me was,

"Industrial is heavier than metal, it's designed to be.
I haven't heard any mainstream rock that's heavier than Morbid Angel, Vader, Berzerker... tho'"

To which I responded, not all metal is death metal, as a blanket statement to make the point that some metal is easier to listen to then the bands you mentioned,

To which I followed by saying, after your sarcasm at my response, that "there are different degrees of heaviness" and that a lot of metal is vastly different to say, Pantera or Morbid Angel (who are quite different themselves, if you want to go into pedantics), which is why I dislike people, people being the post I responded to before you confronted me, pigeon-holing it. Not all metal is heavy to all ears, your belief Sunn are not (heavy "to a metalhead") is proof of that.


Quote:
Thanks, I mean this in the nicest way when I say "you've just tried to teach me to
suck eggs".
I made that comment in order to try bring the conversation back to my original point, which was that I dislike the blanket statements like, I dislike metal, because metal is a very diverse thing.
__________________
A disquiet mind at therapy with the music.
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 02-15-2011, 01:39 PM
Hellwyck
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: HIP HOP

Your rants are too much now Frost... I'll take a raincheck on this:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Frost View Post
You mentioned hardcore aficionados in a conversation about metal, I presume you mean metal aficionados, as it is a common mistake people make.

Hardcore isn't metal, by hardcore I believe you mean the genre (often confused with metal) not a hardcore fan, in the sense of the word, like a hardcore sports fan. I think you understand where I made that mistake.
mattsmith meant "hardcore" as in 100% or nothing... More or less why the Genre's called hardcore.

And you're right, it isn't metal, it's punk but there is hardcore metal which is crossover.
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 02-15-2011, 01:41 PM
Frost's Avatar
Frost Frost is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 933
Default Re: HIP HOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellwyck View Post
Your rants are too much now Frost... I'll take a raincheck on this:



mattsmith meant "hardcore" as in 100% or nothing... More or less why the Genre's called hardcore.

And you're right, it isn't metal, it's punk but there is hardcore metal which is crossover.
I understand that now, and I'm sorry if I offended him.

You can take a raincheck, but honestly, I never wanted to argue and would prefer if we didn't, really it's over nothing.
__________________
A disquiet mind at therapy with the music.
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 02-15-2011, 07:42 PM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 7,886
Default Re: HIP HOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellwyck View Post
I - as wellas alot of people I know are pretty hard-core metal fans (as well as a "hardcore metal" fans) and we don't get all elitist or pigeon hole bands.
Yes, we call Municipal Waste "Thrash metal" and Napalm Death "Grind" but that because they are!

I think you're mistaking the "elitist yet loudest" minority for the "true fan base" majority.
He is referring to the millions of posts on youtube that follow most metal videos with people going back and forth calling each other names because they disagree about which exact genre said video is in, and further name calling over if said video is any good.

It may only be a minority of teenage e-thugs who don't represent the majority, but that doesn't change his point that it happens.

But seriously, you and Frost are doing it now, going back and forth over what band fits into what mico-sub-genre. And using terms like "because they are." Seriously, what does it matter? It's a description of how one band sounds relative to another, it's not a term that DEFINES the band once and for all.

And it's all relative.

If one only listens to light classical music, or traditional country, Linkin Park might as well be extreme metal.

Like back in the 80's and Poison always got lumped into the metal scene, even though their is nothing remotely metal about them. But compared to Duran Duran, MTV figured they were. Motorhead is considered one of the godfathers of metal, yet Lemmy himself has said over and over again Motorhead is just a rock and roll band and he doesn't see his band as metal at all. It just depends on where you're coming from.

When I was a kid, Ozzy was considered pretty extreme. Now he's mild classic rock that my 4 year old listens too. Again, it's all relative.
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 02-15-2011, 07:53 PM
RollingStone000's Avatar
RollingStone000 RollingStone000 is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: What do you care, you're not my mom.
Posts: 655
Default Re: HIP HOP

A few great documentaries to watch for you real fans.

Scratch - http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...4575841814301#
One of the quintessential docs about hip hop in my opinion. You see a lot of old school hip hop history with the likes of Bamabaataa and others.

Beat Diggin - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPYEvx-pNMo
This'll flat out just make you appreciate vinyl records again. Now these cats LISTEN to music.

Good Copy, Bad Copy - http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...1317653995812#
It's more about piracy, but it has a large and really good segment with Danger Mouse (of Gnarls Barkley) who did a mash-up mixtape of Jay Z's Black Album and The Beatles White Album, and ultimately got in a lot of trouble even though he intentionally made no money from it. It kind of tackles the issue of sampling.
__________________
"This message was paid for by the Committee to Re-invade Vietnam" - Jack Donaghy; 30 Rock
Reply With Quote
  #91  
Old 02-16-2011, 03:46 AM
mattsmith's Avatar
mattsmith mattsmith is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Most Everywhere
Posts: 1,912
Default Re: HIP HOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
He is referring to the millions of posts on youtube that follow most metal videos with people going back and forth calling each other names because they disagree about which exact genre said video is in, and further name calling over if said video is any good.

It may only be a minority of teenage e-thugs who don't represent the majority, but that doesn't change his point that it happens.

But seriously, you and Frost are doing it now, going back and forth over what band fits into what mico-sub-genre. And using terms like "because they are." Seriously, what does it matter? It's a description of how one band sounds relative to another, it's not a term that DEFINES the band once and for all.

And it's all relative.

If one only listens to light classical music, or traditional country, Linkin Park might as well be extreme metal.

Like back in the 80's and Poison always got lumped into the metal scene, even though their is nothing remotely metal about them. But compared to Duran Duran, MTV figured they were. Motorhead is considered one of the godfathers of metal, yet Lemmy himself has said over and over again Motorhead is just a rock and roll band and he doesn't see his band as metal at all. It just depends on where you're coming from.

When I was a kid, Ozzy was considered pretty extreme. Now he's mild classic rock that my 4 year old listens too. Again, it's all relative.
These are my thoughts exactly.

All I was trying to do was point out the jazz aficianado analogy to warn metal's fan base that this particular direction is a recipe for failure. In fact I can go to allaboutjazz forum right now and see the same conversation a thousand times. Just insert the word metal with jazz. You can even see where the jazz aficianado claims you probably don't know this and this as a way of marginalizing your comments. Sorry---already been there done that.

Also--- I specifically stated meaning behavior not genre specific. I don't think I could be more clear than that. And at least in my case, I'm rarely insulted. But after a time it's easy to be irritated with sloppy comprehension issues. I mean seriously, do we need to be like those other forums where you post pictures with stupid captions to make your entirely obvious point?

But apparently a certain base wants to keep doing what they're doing. So all I'm going to say is knock yourself out while I continue to respect those drummers.
__________________
I endorse Zildjian sticks because I like them.
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 02-16-2011, 01:09 PM
Fishbones's Avatar
Fishbones Fishbones is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Location: Location:
Posts: 881
Default Re: HIP HOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattsmith View Post
In fact I can go to allaboutjazz forum right now and see the same conversation a thousand times.
Allaboutjazz is a pretty vicious forum. Lots of snobs.
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 02-16-2011, 08:49 PM
inneedofgrace's Avatar
inneedofgrace inneedofgrace is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: New Jersey - Exit 5
Posts: 1,560
Default Re: HIP HOP

I dislike hip hop and rap because in some ways it marginalized drummers and other musicians. In the 60's/70's there was such a big soul/blues/funk movement in the black music industry. I loved groups like Sly and the Family Stone, Jackson 5, Earth Wind and Fire, etc. Not to mention the rest of MoTown, who developed some of the best musicians of that era Then it seemed to vanish almost overnight with the advent of hip hop/rap.

Aside from the music itself, which I find monotonic and boring, the lyrics are offensive and have done nothing to improve the socioeconomic conditions of minority groups (except for the artists themselves). In many ways, this music legitimizes and glorifies the dysfunctional world these people live in.
__________________
"Through many dangers, toils and snares..." - Amazing Grace, third verse
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 02-17-2011, 07:09 PM
RollingStone000's Avatar
RollingStone000 RollingStone000 is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: What do you care, you're not my mom.
Posts: 655
Default Re: HIP HOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by inneedofgrace View Post
I dislike hip hop and rap because in some ways it marginalized drummers and other musicians. In the 60's/70's there was such a big soul/blues/funk movement in the black music industry. I loved groups like Sly and the Family Stone, Jackson 5, Earth Wind and Fire, etc. Not to mention the rest of MoTown, who developed some of the best musicians of that era Then it seemed to vanish almost overnight with the advent of hip hop/rap.

Aside from the music itself, which I find monotonic and boring, the lyrics are offensive and have done nothing to improve the socioeconomic conditions of minority groups (except for the artists themselves). In many ways, this music legitimizes and glorifies the dysfunctional world these people live in.
There is soooooo much wrong with these statements I don't even know where to begin. As a matter of fact I'm going to leave it at that. Stay naive dude. I ain't mad atcha', but ain't glad atcha' neitha'.
__________________
"This message was paid for by the Committee to Re-invade Vietnam" - Jack Donaghy; 30 Rock
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 02-17-2011, 07:33 PM
inneedofgrace's Avatar
inneedofgrace inneedofgrace is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: New Jersey - Exit 5
Posts: 1,560
Default Re: HIP HOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by RollingStone000 View Post
There is soooooo much wrong with these statements I don't even know where to begin. As a matter of fact I'm going to leave it at that. Stay naive dude. I ain't mad atcha', but ain't glad atcha' neitha'.
Everyone has an opinion - I ain't shy about giving mine. I'm not expecting people to agree.
__________________
"Through many dangers, toils and snares..." - Amazing Grace, third verse
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 02-17-2011, 10:51 PM
SVEdrummer SVEdrummer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 38
Default Re: HIP HOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by inneedofgrace View Post
Everyone has an opinion - I ain't shy about giving mine. I'm not expecting people to agree.
I think what he was trying to say was that you were generalizing all of the lyrics of rap and hip hop as "offensive" and such. That was why he was angry.
Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old 02-18-2011, 12:43 AM
paistemage's Avatar
paistemage paistemage is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: midwest , usa
Posts: 383
Default Re: HIP HOP

Gangstarr has positive messages. Tons o gunz is about gun violence and why it should stop. Tribe called quest! Positive lyrics.

people tend to lump all rap into a ganster rap genre. They were exposed to it via the media, it might be the only rap they are familiar with.

Despite popular opinion, a lot of "concious" rap pushes an anti negative approach. A lot of rappers speak out on this. a lot of rappers speak out on how empty this approach might be, because they aren't making people think.

Common , mos def, talib kwali, all these rappers say positive things. A lot of rappers hold intelligence as something that should be cherished, and nurtured.

Do i expect people that don't like hip hop to seek this type of hip hop out to validate my point?
No.

It is just being , legitamately ignorant of the culture/music.

That isn't aimed at anyone in particular, just a fact. People that don't know or like Metal think metalheads all worship the devil, kill babies, and are extremely aggressive all the time.

I'm not. I like metal.

Hip hop is a genre of music, it doesn't make you bad for not being into it, it makes you...you.
__________________
"If I became parapalegic I would try to use my forehead to drum, or my tongue or nose." - Myself
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 02-18-2011, 10:04 AM
sticksen sticksen is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3
Default Re: HIP HOP

great post paistemage !
i totaly agree with what you said above .
Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old 02-18-2011, 06:05 PM
inneedofgrace's Avatar
inneedofgrace inneedofgrace is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: New Jersey - Exit 5
Posts: 1,560
Default Re: HIP HOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by paistemage View Post
Gangstarr has positive messages. Tons o gunz is about gun violence and why it should stop. Tribe called quest! Positive lyrics.

people tend to lump all rap into a ganster rap genre. They were exposed to it via the media, it might be the only rap they are familiar with.

Despite popular opinion, a lot of "concious" rap pushes an anti negative approach. A lot of rappers speak out on this. a lot of rappers speak out on how empty this approach might be, because they aren't making people think.

Common , mos def, talib kwali, all these rappers say positive things. A lot of rappers hold intelligence as something that should be cherished, and nurtured.

Do i expect people that don't like hip hop to seek this type of hip hop out to validate my point?
No.

It is just being , legitamately ignorant of the culture/music.

That isn't aimed at anyone in particular, just a fact. People that don't know or like Metal think metalheads all worship the devil, kill babies, and are extremely aggressive all the time.

I'm not. I like metal.

Hip hop is a genre of music, it doesn't make you bad for not being into it, it makes you...you.
I apologize for overgeneralizing - I should know better. There is even Christian hip-hop and rap, that has positive messages. It's not my cup of tea, but if it reaches people, all the more power to them. And as someone pointed out, there are plenty of bad messages in rock music.

My main point (and again it is just an opinion) was really that hip hop and rap, just like disco, has had a negative impact on popular music in general. I know my parent's generation probably said the same thing when Elvis and then the Beatles came into popularity, because they were used to big band music. Their parent's probably said the same thing about big band music.

I am not saying that hip hop and rap artists are not talented, because they obviously are. I'm saying that the form of music does not utilize the instruments that I enjoy hearing. Where is the bass player, the piano player or the drummer? Where are the guitar licks? I can hear all those in jazz, rock, (some) metal, big band, and even some classical music.

This is not my only pet peeve about today's music. The over-synthesization of many of today's pop vocals also drives me crazy, along with extensive use of drum tracks.

But I guess I shouldn't be such a "purist" about these things. The Beatles were one of the pioneers of rock and roll, but they along with George Martin spent many hours in the studio adding and rearranging instruments and vocals - even recording some of them backwards and sped up, while adding all kinds of crazy special sound affects. Then again, Martin was a brilliant producer and composer, and added so many beautiful orchestral arrangements to their songs.
__________________
"Through many dangers, toils and snares..." - Amazing Grace, third verse
Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old 02-18-2011, 09:32 PM
Snare's Avatar
Snare Snare is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 52
Default Re: HIP HOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by inneedofgrace View Post
I apologize for overgeneralizing - I should know better. There is even Christian hip-hop and rap, that has positive messages. It's not my cup of tea, but if it reaches people, all the more power to them. And as someone pointed out, there are plenty of bad messages in rock music.

My main point (and again it is just an opinion) was really that hip hop and rap, just like disco, has had a negative impact on popular music in general. I know my parent's generation probably said the same thing when Elvis and then the Beatles came into popularity, because they were used to big band music. Their parent's probably said the same thing about big band music.

I am not saying that hip hop and rap artists are not talented, because they obviously are. I'm saying that the form of music does not utilize the instruments that I enjoy hearing. Where is the bass player, the piano player or the drummer? Where are the guitar licks? I can hear all those in jazz, rock, (some) metal, big band, and even some classical music.

This is not my only pet peeve about today's music. The over-synthesization of many of today's pop vocals also drives me crazy, along with extensive use of drum tracks.

But I guess I shouldn't be such a "purist" about these things. The Beatles were one of the pioneers of rock and roll, but they along with George Martin spent many hours in the studio adding and rearranging instruments and vocals - even recording some of them backwards and sped up, while adding all kinds of crazy special sound affects. Then again, Martin was a brilliant producer and composer, and added so many beautiful orchestral arrangements to their songs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D671znPDOCU

Mainly towards daredrummer who said that drums have no place in hip-hop. This is a Roots performance on Soulstage. ?uestlove and Captain Kirk (guitar player) absolutely killed it during this performance. The percussion pretty much carries the first 1:15 of the video.
Reply With Quote
  #101  
Old 02-18-2011, 09:48 PM
RollingStone000's Avatar
RollingStone000 RollingStone000 is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: What do you care, you're not my mom.
Posts: 655
Default Re: HIP HOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snare View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D671znPDOCU

Mainly towards daredrummer who said that drums have no place in hip-hop. This is a Roots performance on Soulstage. ?uestlove and Captain Kirk (guitar player) absolutely killed it during this performance. The percussion pretty much carries the first 1:15 of the video.
Love this performance! I was watching this earlier while I was getting ready for work. Kirk impressed me the most holding down Badu's vocals.
__________________
"This message was paid for by the Committee to Re-invade Vietnam" - Jack Donaghy; 30 Rock
Reply With Quote
  #102  
Old 02-18-2011, 10:08 PM
Snare's Avatar
Snare Snare is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 52
Default Re: HIP HOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by RollingStone000 View Post
Love this performance! I was watching this earlier while I was getting ready for work. Kirk impressed me the most holding down Badu's vocals.
Yeah, I loved how he was able to to sing his guitar part and play it at the same time, talk about being "one with your instrument". And I didn't expect the Roots to put him on a lead singing part, but he handled singing and playing extremely well.

Also, from about 0:30-1:00, notice that everytime it shows ?uest and the percussionist, their hands are moving in almost exact unison.
Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old 02-18-2011, 11:14 PM
GRUNTERSDAD's Avatar
GRUNTERSDAD GRUNTERSDAD is online now
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Florida's West Coast
Posts: 15,663
Default Re: HIP HOP

Bob Dylan and Johnny Cash use to speak the words rather than sing at times, Was that Rap??
__________________
Thank you for sharing my day.
Gretsch Renown
Reply With Quote
  #104  
Old 02-18-2011, 11:34 PM
paistemage's Avatar
paistemage paistemage is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: midwest , usa
Posts: 383
Default Re: HIP HOP

I agree that to some extent some "hip hop," which is really pop music these days, at least in the mainstream with a cadence similar to REAL hip hop; has been a detrimental.

I am not a Christian, but Lacraee, he is a Christian Hip hopper. To answer your question of that "market" so to speak.

I do like ALL hip hop, and have an ear for quality.

As in any music there is stuff, "product" made to "move units."

I like the storytelling aspect, analyzing the delivery of the vocalist, and visualizing what the MC is saying. It takes me on a journey.
It is pretty EASY to make hip hop music, and with the aid of computer programs or drum machines, just about anybody can "do it." Doesn't mean its good.

I was not stating anyone here has that exact view, in my earlier post, I know people in "real" life that have such an opinion.

I am from Chicago, I like , and can relate, to hip hop that DOES talk about selling drugs, shooting people, overall nefarious gangster stuff. I have seen it firsthand. The results of these crimes, known people that live in ghettos, lived in ghettos, etc.

Does that mean I want to glorify it, or not get out? No, I left. Anyone who LIKES living in a ghetto is a liar. Hip hop to some is escapism. Mentally we can escape through the stories. Mentally we can leave and vicariously live the life.

To me, hip hop has always been close to my heart. It's fun (paul revere), it can speak about social ills (brendas got a bay) or maybe talk about a great female(bonita applebum).

No offense to anyone here, I agree with the sentiments its a youth thing.My parents dislike it. My grandfather didn't like Zeppelin. I am 31 , no means a spring chicken, I don't understand "kesha." I don't understand plasticity.

Read Tupac's poetry book, you tell me if there isn't something positive there. Especially "rose that grew from concrete."
__________________
"If I became parapalegic I would try to use my forehead to drum, or my tongue or nose." - Myself
Reply With Quote
  #105  
Old 02-18-2011, 11:40 PM
inneedofgrace's Avatar
inneedofgrace inneedofgrace is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: New Jersey - Exit 5
Posts: 1,560
Default Re: HIP HOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snare View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D671znPDOCU

Mainly towards daredrummer who said that drums have no place in hip-hop. This is a Roots performance on Soulstage. ?uestlove and Captain Kirk (guitar player) absolutely killed it during this performance. The percussion pretty much carries the first 1:15 of the video.
that's good stuff, but I prefer Earth Wind and Fire - besides, I don't want to see someone in a Yankee hat ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hum_5TUhAOs

you can skip to 4:30 to see some drum work
__________________
"Through many dangers, toils and snares..." - Amazing Grace, third verse
Reply With Quote
  #106  
Old 02-18-2011, 11:41 PM
paistemage's Avatar
paistemage paistemage is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: midwest , usa
Posts: 383
Default Re: HIP HOP

"The over-synthesization of many of today's pop vocals also drives me crazy,"

Your not alone there, pal. Auto tuning takes the soul out of the music. Otis redding, the temps, or say aretha...That is soulful singing, straight from the heart.

The usage of MACHINES to make a human , who usually CAN'T sing, be in tune, is cheap , cheating, and is not full of integrity.

I would prefer a heartfelt performance by the funk brothers, with the Temps in front of them, than some house beat with a talentless hack "vocalizing."
__________________
"If I became parapalegic I would try to use my forehead to drum, or my tongue or nose." - Myself
Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old 02-18-2011, 11:56 PM
paistemage's Avatar
paistemage paistemage is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: midwest , usa
Posts: 383
Default Re: HIP HOP

" emapathy is the poor man's cocaine, and love is a chemical by any other name"

Michael "eyedea" larsen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfGOz1DZF14
__________________
"If I became parapalegic I would try to use my forehead to drum, or my tongue or nose." - Myself
Reply With Quote
  #108  
Old 02-19-2011, 02:35 AM
Snare's Avatar
Snare Snare is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 52
Default Re: HIP HOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by inneedofgrace View Post
that's good stuff, but I prefer Earth Wind and Fire - besides, I don't want to see someone in a Yankee hat ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hum_5TUhAOs

you can skip to 4:30 to see some drum work
I remember a few months back, my dad pointed me to a more recent Earth, Wind, and Fire video (still great) because he wanted to showed me what a "kalimba" was, and he said they had a very good drummer. But this was the first time I've really seen a solo from him. I think I'll show my dad this video, he'll definitely enjoy it since he grew up in the 70's when they were popular. Love the awesome falsetto voices from EW&F. lol Thanks for the video.
Reply With Quote
  #109  
Old 02-21-2011, 10:00 PM
playItLikeThis playItLikeThis is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 19
Default Re: HIP HOP

I don't like rap for the following reasons:

1. One bar of music repeated for 3 1/2- 4 minutes. Ususally with some ear-degrading "sound effect" played throughout the whole song.
2. Filthy lyrics.
3. Encourages illiteracy. Fifty Cent/Fitty Cent?
4. Is now more about a culture that is detrimental to a large portion of people who listen to it.
5. Live performances: A bunch of shirtless tatooed dudes hopping around and yelling "lyrics" into the mic which can't be understood.
6. Musicians? They don't need no stinking musicians!
7. Musically flat. No changes in mood, time signature, key. No bridge, climax. Just flat line loud.

That said, there are a few older song I like, such as rapper's delight, walk this way (crossover) , bust a move. Warren G. had a song I liked about 7 years ago but I can't remember the title.
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 02-21-2011, 10:37 PM
paistemage's Avatar
paistemage paistemage is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: midwest , usa
Posts: 383
Default Re: HIP HOP

Well there are a lot of groups that use live muscians in their shows. I have no problem understanding the lyrics. If you don't like it fine, but a vast majority isn't "filthy" that is a misconception.

Your obviously uninformed, and that is fine, you don't have to like it.

Eyedea, for example, doesn't utter "filthy" words, more like abstract poetry about all sorts of problems.

Not picking on you, your entitled to your opinion, it's just not based in fact, to some degree. Sure some have lyrics that might offend, some might yell.

If all you heard was wu-tang, or NWA, I can see that.

I am not going to try and correct your opinion, just saying that isn't entirely true.

Gangstarr, uses Louie armstrong, charlie mingus, charlie parker, ron carter basslines, etc. I consider that music, so do college professors.

If it's not for you, that's cool. We all like different things. I happen to love hip hop, and all the facets inside it.
__________________
"If I became parapalegic I would try to use my forehead to drum, or my tongue or nose." - Myself
Reply With Quote
  #111  
Old 02-21-2011, 11:02 PM
inneedofgrace's Avatar
inneedofgrace inneedofgrace is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: New Jersey - Exit 5
Posts: 1,560
Default Re: HIP HOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by paistemage View Post
If it's not for you, that's cool. We all like different things. I happen to love hip hop, and all the facets inside it.
I find that intriguing, and would be curious as to how many other drummers love hip hop. I think the major reason I am not into hip hop is because I am a drummer, and dislike the monotony of the percussion beat in the songs (this applies to many newer pop songs as well) Also, hip hop came into being when I was well into my 30's, so there is probably a generational thing going on here as well.

When Ton Loc came out with Wild Thing and Funky Cold Medina, it was sort of like hip-hop, but had some drums and guitar licks to make it more palatable to me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=387ZDGSKVSg
__________________
"Through many dangers, toils and snares..." - Amazing Grace, third verse
Reply With Quote
  #112  
Old 02-22-2011, 12:15 AM
mediocrefunkybeat
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: HIP HOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by playItLikeThis View Post
I don't like rap for the following reasons:

1. One bar of music repeated for 3 1/2- 4 minutes. Ususally with some ear-degrading "sound effect" played throughout the whole song.
2. Filthy lyrics.
3. Encourages illiteracy. Fifty Cent/Fitty Cent?
4. Is now more about a culture that is detrimental to a large portion of people who listen to it.
5. Live performances: A bunch of shirtless tatooed dudes hopping around and yelling "lyrics" into the mic which can't be understood.
6. Musicians? They don't need no stinking musicians!
7. Musically flat. No changes in mood, time signature, key. No bridge, climax. Just flat line loud.

That said, there are a few older song I like, such as rapper's delight, walk this way (crossover) , bust a move. Warren G. had a song I liked about 7 years ago but I can't remember the title.
Utter tripe. You haven't even tried to listen to anything worthwhile. Get off MTV and listen to something that isn't on that channel and you'll find far, far more interesting work.
Reply With Quote
  #113  
Old 02-22-2011, 12:21 AM
paistemage's Avatar
paistemage paistemage is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: midwest , usa
Posts: 383
Default Re: HIP HOP

I'm 31.

If your paying attention to what is REALLY popular you aren't getting a GREAT exploration of true MCing.

Eminem is excellent, past that most mainstream stuff is formulaic:

Beat, simple melody, terrible wordplay. Ja rule, fabulous, stuff like that.

TRY listening to Aesop Rock, POS, Eyedea and abilities, Gangstarr, and of course Tribe.

Those Are MC's.

Try MfDoom "Accordian" youtube it.

Hip hop I feel, and have found myself, DOES appeal to drummers. It's all about polyrhythmn.

The vocals push or pull the bar line, or go along syncopatedly with the straight ahead beat.
__________________
"If I became parapalegic I would try to use my forehead to drum, or my tongue or nose." - Myself
Reply With Quote
  #114  
Old 02-22-2011, 03:00 AM
Snare's Avatar
Snare Snare is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 52
Default Re: HIP HOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by playItLikeThis View Post
I don't like rap for the following reasons:

1. One bar of music repeated for 3 1/2- 4 minutes. Ususally with some ear-degrading "sound effect" played throughout the whole song.
2. Filthy lyrics.
3. Encourages illiteracy. Fifty Cent/Fitty Cent?
4. Is now more about a culture that is detrimental to a large portion of people who listen to it.
5. Live performances: A bunch of shirtless tatooed dudes hopping around and yelling "lyrics" into the mic which can't be understood.
6. Musicians? They don't need no stinking musicians!
7. Musically flat. No changes in mood, time signature, key. No bridge, climax. Just flat line loud.

That said, there are a few older song I like, such as rapper's delight, walk this way (crossover) , bust a move. Warren G. had a song I liked about 7 years ago but I can't remember the title.
Sounds like the only rap you've heard is Lil Wayne and "Candy Shop" by 50 Cent, based off the first 5 reasons.
Along with the one link that I posted, I can give you WAY MORE links to hip hop artists and groups that use Musicians and instruments that don't match the reasons on your list.
That is, if you want me to.

I agree though, it probably is a generational thing. I could send you dozens of links to other songs but I'm not entirely sure it would change your opinion of hip hop. But I do want you to remember that Mainstream Rap does not do the genre justice. To me, it is pop music. Mainstream Rap is basically the ugly face of the genre that everyone can see. You have to ask or actively look for good hip hop music.

Most of the rappers that people my age think are good, would be Lil Wayne, Gucci Mane, Soulja Boy, Birdman, OJ the Juice Man, Nicki Minaj, and Drake (yes I know, by the time I got to "OJ" you were facepalming). All of them are BS artists, period.
Please understand that some drummers (me at least) are listening to hip hop music that is different from the kind that you, as well as other people that are not familiar with it, immediately think of.

Last edited by Snare; 02-22-2011 at 03:34 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #115  
Old 02-22-2011, 03:12 AM
GRUNTERSDAD's Avatar
GRUNTERSDAD GRUNTERSDAD is online now
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Florida's West Coast
Posts: 15,663
Default Re: HIP HOP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hum_5TUhAOs

Now that is music. Great sound, great percussion section, great drummer, great brass section. Stage performance and stage presence. No one grabbed their crotch or took off their shirt. You could understand the lyrics. If you weren't tapping your feet or doing the chair dance then you have no soul or rhythm. Let's see, we need a band for the prom. Ummm, Earth wind and Fire, or Fitty Cent, or maybe, Biggy Smalls, or maybe Eminem. Let me get back to you. As if.
__________________
Thank you for sharing my day.
Gretsch Renown
Reply With Quote
  #116  
Old 02-22-2011, 04:50 AM
playItLikeThis playItLikeThis is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 19
Default Re: HIP HOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by paistemage View Post
If you don't like it fine, but a vast majority isn't "filthy" that is a misconception.

Your obviously uninformed, and that is fine, you don't have to like it.
.
From Billboards Hip Hop/R&B

6 foot 7, Lil Wayne featuring Cory Gunz - Drops S-bomb 3 times, B-bomb 3 times, N-word twice, F-bomb 3 times, menage a trois reference, all in the first verse.

Love Faces, Trey Songz - Don't it feel good when I touch on it; Wouldn't it be nice if all night I was ** you

No Bull S**t, Chris Brown - Make you come over and over again, And Ima leave it in...

Aston Marton Music Rick Ross -My down bi**h, one who live by the code, Put this music s**t aside, get it in on the road

Fabolous, You Be Killin Em - A bad b***h cost, she worth every cent; She look like the best money that I ever spent. Can't fault her, the last n***a spoiled her; But he ain't beat it up, I assault her

Wiz Khalifa, Black and Yellow - Black stripe, yellow paint; Them n****s scared of it, but them ho's ain't; Soon as I hit the club look at them ho's face...

I stopped at number 12. No point in beating a dead horse. We different standards of what filth is, and that's fine. Just don't try to pass this genre off as wholesome. And of course filth/raunch isn't limited to Hip Hop, its just far more prevalent in a higher percentage of songs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mediocrefunkybeat
Utter tripe. You haven't even tried to listen to anything worthwhile. Get off MTV and listen to something that isn't on that channel and you'll find far, far more interesting work.
Please back up your statements. I'm open to some examples you can provide. And who watches MTV?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Snare
Along with the one link that I posted, I can give you WAY MORE links to hip hop artists and groups that use Musicians and instruments that don't match the reasons on your list.
I'll look for your link and listen to it.
Reply With Quote
  #117  
Old 02-22-2011, 11:59 AM
mediocrefunkybeat
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: HIP HOP

'Game Theory' by The Roots is a great album. Old school albums like NWA and Public Enemy are as good a starting point as any. I'm not a Hip Hop expert by any means, but I'm not making blanket statements here. Your attitude is typical of the close minded attitudes I see every day from people that don't want to leave their bubble.
Reply With Quote
  #118  
Old 02-22-2011, 03:07 PM
inneedofgrace's Avatar
inneedofgrace inneedofgrace is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: New Jersey - Exit 5
Posts: 1,560
Default Re: HIP HOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by mediocrefunkybeat View Post
Your attitude is typical of the close minded attitudes I see every day from people that don't want to leave their bubble.
He asked for links and said he would listen to them. Opinionated does not necessarily mean close minded. Maybe we can all learn something here.
__________________
"Through many dangers, toils and snares..." - Amazing Grace, third verse
Reply With Quote
  #119  
Old 02-22-2011, 03:57 PM
mediocrefunkybeat
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: HIP HOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by inneedofgrace View Post
He asked for links and said he would listen to them. Opinionated does not necessarily mean close minded. Maybe we can all learn something here.
If he wanted to open his mind, he'd go looking himself. It's clear he's already made his mind up - hence close minded.
Reply With Quote
  #120  
Old 02-22-2011, 05:01 PM
paistemage's Avatar
paistemage paistemage is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: midwest , usa
Posts: 383
Default Re: HIP HOP

I wasn't trying to pass it off as wholesome.
A lot of hip hop is offensive and that is a fact. But, the way you were sepaking is if it all is offensive. A handful of songs doesn't describe a whole genre.

I was putting up the stance that there is plenty of hip hop that doesn't meet the criteria you described. Artists I mentioned before.

The "music" that is popular is made to draw attention and use key selling cliches: sex, drinking/clubbing and the like. I have heard it, and don't like it, and wonder why it is popular and ATMOSPHERE isn't....it is because a lot of the mainstream music isn't meant to be intellectual. It is meant to provoke an immediate response and is made for the simple minded.

I was trying to make a point that some hip hop,. or even the pop that has "rapping" over it is definately in the off color category, sure. Some is not.

I was trying to emphasize that to get the gist of the true hip hop I was speaking, you need to hear things that are made to enhance your mind, not lessen your wallet.

If drunk people in a club need to hear a hip hop style beat with a rapper talking about being drunk, fine, there is "product " out there which suits this need.

If your a head and you want a great MC, there is stuff out there.

Unfortunately it isn't popular because people are very much like sheep and will take whatever is spoonfed to them without questioning. They will see what is being sold to them and make an assumption, a generality about a whole music genre.

It is like saying there is one kind of jazz.

It is a predjudice without making an informed decision.

It is like saying all Metal music is about the "devil," and tells people to kill themselves. As foolish as these viewpoints are,there are people who subscribe to them.

It is clearly a point of not having been exposed to enough of the genre to make true statement.


If I were to look at any point in history, I could see peaks and valleys in the music that is popular. Some of it is great, the beatles for example, some is terrible.

Looking at what's popular isn't an exhaustive approach of a whole music genre.
What is popular isn't quality, most of the time.
Only looking at a short list of today's music , listened to by the herd, doesn't help you see all the gold hidden underneath, in the underground, or even in the past.
__________________
"If I became parapalegic I would try to use my forehead to drum, or my tongue or nose." - Myself

Last edited by paistemage; 02-22-2011 at 05:42 PM. Reason: expansion
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com