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  #41  
Old 07-31-2011, 10:06 PM
mediocrefunkybeat
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

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Originally Posted by tard View Post
again i used the term plywood to describe lower priced drums such as cb and westburry and laminate to describe the higher end products only as i have tried to explain but everyone would rather just argue
So what's the difference between a ply and a laminate? A ply is formed from a laminate layer. If you're having problems with definitions, then that isn't my problem...

Firstly, a Yamaha shell, then an older Pearl shell.

Some shells now use a diagonal seam, but it's the same principle.
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  #42  
Old 07-31-2011, 10:08 PM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

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Originally Posted by tard View Post
yes, you can see how they look taken with a normal camera setting
You're asking quite a lot from my sensibilities. I don't think your toms (in the avatar only) are even close to the same angle. I flat out don't believe you and cannot take anything you say from now on as reliable.
  #43  
Old 07-31-2011, 10:17 PM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

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Originally Posted by mediocrefunkybeat View Post
So what's the difference between a ply and a laminate? A ply is formed from a laminate layer. If you're having problems with definitions, then that isn't my problem...
fine than if your not smart enough to understand the point i was trying to make earlier and just want to argue about the usage of the terms here it is again without the whole plywood thing, " there is a reason why dw drums cost more than westburry and why sabian aa and hh cost more than b8,s and why american classics cost more than nova" which was the point to this whole thread before everyone jumped all over me for trying to say there was a difference between the way cheap drums and high end drums were manufactured and the quality of materials they are made from.
  #44  
Old 07-31-2011, 10:20 PM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

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You're asking quite a lot from my sensibilities. I don't think your toms (in the avatar only) are even close to the same angle. I flat out don't believe you and cannot take anything you say from now on as reliable.
christ, im not even playing in the avatar picture, my hand is on my leg with no stick, it was a promo pic taken by a photographer, look at the toms, if you go by that pic the batter side is alot smaller than the reso side, they look like they would use a 2" larger head on the reso side
  #45  
Old 07-31-2011, 10:21 PM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

And a Yamaha Musashi shell. Clearly separate ply layers with a diagonal seam; differing grain directions too.
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  #46  
Old 07-31-2011, 10:22 PM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

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fine than if your not smart enough to understand the point i was trying to make earlier and just want to argue about the usage of the terms here it is again without the whole plywood thing, " there is a reason why dw drums cost more than westburry and why sabian aa and hh cost more than b8,s and why american classics cost more than nova" which was the point to this whole thread before everyone jumped all over me for trying to say there was a difference between the way cheap drums and high end drums were manufactured and the quality of materials they are made from.
Which is fine. But that is not what you said. Hence what I said about 'being pedantic' in my original post.

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  #47  
Old 07-31-2011, 10:27 PM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

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Originally Posted by mediocrefunkybeat View Post
Which is fine. But that is not what you said. Hence what I said about 'being pedantic' in my original post.

Thank you, I'm here all week.
no, i referred to the cheapies as plywood and the high end as laminate so i didnt piss anyone off by using names, but we see how that worked out, and by the way most salesmen at music stores refer to them in the same manner.
  #48  
Old 07-31-2011, 10:29 PM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

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no, i referred to the cheapies as plywood and the high end as laminate so i didnt piss anyone off by using names, but we see how that worked out, and by the way most salesmen at music stores refer to them in the same manner.
Well that's sales talk then isn't it? It's the same thing. You fell for the marketing spin.
  #49  
Old 07-31-2011, 10:41 PM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

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Originally Posted by mediocrefunkybeat View Post
Well that's sales talk then isn't it? It's the same thing. You fell for the marketing spin.
see again your still focusing on the usage of the terms just so you can argue instead of real topic here which was that there is a reason that the nova sticks are cheaper than the american classics.
  #50  
Old 07-31-2011, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by tard View Post
see again your still focusing on the usage of the terms just so you can argue instead of real topic here which was that there is a reason that the nova sticks are cheaper than the american classics.
You confused the terms to begin with. Yes, there is a reason the Nova sticks are cheaper but you're the one falling for sales talk and gimmicks through a fundamental lack of knowledge!
  #51  
Old 07-31-2011, 10:54 PM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

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Originally Posted by mediocrefunkybeat View Post
You confused the terms to begin with. Yes, there is a reason the Nova sticks are cheaper but you're the one falling for sales talk and gimmicks through a fundamental lack of knowledge!
whatever, you guys are the ones who want to argue just for the sake of arguing, i guess i did fall for the salesmen gimmicks, im so stupid, i should have just bought the westburry instead of the maple kit since there the same thing, could have bought solar instead of my aa, aax and hh collection, and what the hell, why buy pre-made sticks at all, just go to the hardware store and buy some wooden dowls cut them at 15 or 16 inches and sand the ends down, $2 a pair since there is no difference and its all just sales gimmicks, what a fool ive been, could have traded in my car for a new one with the cash i could have saved right?

Last edited by tard; 07-31-2011 at 11:12 PM.
  #52  
Old 07-31-2011, 11:09 PM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
BTW, tard, do you really play your rack toms with that angle?
That's re-diculous
btw, if you wanna pick on someone that actually has steep tom angles, call nicko up from iron madien and tell him his set up is ridculous, to each his own i say, but again seems like children just looking for an argument.


  #53  
Old 07-31-2011, 11:16 PM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

Tard I sugeest you swallow your pride and move on. You are dead wrong. Check this site, and others, for the proper info and stop guessing.

http://www.drumjunction.com/drum_shells.html

You've seen plywood before right? Thin pieces of wood called "laminates" or "veneers" (which are shaved from a solid piece) are stacked with alternating grain patterns to increase strength of the finished product.



Thin plies of various woods are held together with fillers and glue. Heat and compression molding techniques are used to produce these plywood cylinders.


Often, only the inner and outer-most plies of these shells are made of a quality hardwood. This can result in portions of the bearing edge consisting of glue, filler or a gap in the wood ply altogether. (Gaps of air don't resonate very well.) Even with plies or an outer veneer of an exotic wood, the shell still consists of thousands of square inches of glue.
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  #54  
Old 07-31-2011, 11:24 PM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

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Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
Tard I sugeest you swallow your pride and move on. You are dead wrong. Check this site, and others, for the proper info and stop guessing.

http://www.drumjunction.com/drum_shells.html

You've seen plywood before right? Thin pieces of wood called "laminates" or "veneers" (which are shaved from a solid piece) are stacked with alternating grain patterns to increase strength of the finished product.



Thin plies of various woods are held together with fillers and glue. Heat and compression molding techniques are used to produce these plywood cylinders.


Often, only the inner and outer-most plies of these shells are made of a quality hardwood. This can result in portions of the bearing edge consisting of glue, filler or a gap in the wood ply altogether. (Gaps of air don't resonate very well.) Even with plies or an outer veneer of an exotic wood, the shell still consists of thousands of square inches of glue.
sure, no problem, just do me a favor there mr know it all, since were talking about the actual difference between how the terms plywood and laminate are used and not actually drums themselves call up a skateboard shop and ask why there is such a difference in price between a plywood skateboard and a laminated one, there the same right? just a sales gimmick? ask a pro skateboarder how long a plywood skateboard would last him.
  #55  
Old 07-31-2011, 11:35 PM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dictionary.com
lam·i·nate 

[v. lam-uh-neyt; adj., n. lam-uh-neyt, -nit] Show IPA
verb, -nat·ed, -nat·ing, adjective, noun
–verb (used with object)
1.
to separate or split into thin layers.
2.
to form (metal) into a thin plate, as by beating or rolling.
3.
to construct from layers of material bonded together.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dictionary.com
ply·wood 

[plahy-wood] Show IPA
–noun
a material used for various building purposes, consisting usually of an odd number of veneers glued over each other, usually at right angles.
Ergo, plywood is a kind of laminate. So unless you're using exotic materials, laminates are plywood. Sorted.
  #56  
Old 07-31-2011, 11:41 PM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

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Originally Posted by tard View Post
sure, no problem, just do me a favor there mr know it all, since were talking about the actual difference between how the terms plywood and laminate are used and not actually drums themselves call up a skateboard shop and ask why there is such a difference in price between a plywood skateboard and a laminated one, there the same right? just a sales gimmick? ask a pro skateboarder how long a plywood skateboard would last him.
Mr Know It All. /so you are so weak you are resorting to name calling? I'll say it again. You are wrong. Move on. And I took your advice and maybe if you did some research you too would learn something.

Skateboard Veneer

Let's start with veneer. Skateboard veneer can be broken down into three categories of plys.
Face plys, sanded or unsanded core plys and cross band plys which are generally unsanded. The way that you orient these different layers changes a board's strength, weight and feel.
A common method of arranging the plys or layers would be...
1. Face
2. Core layer
3. Cross band
4. Core layer
5. Cross band
6. Core layer
7. Face

The thickness of the veneer varies as well. Often, 1/17th of an inch (.058 / 1.47mm) for the faces and core layers and the cross bands are generally thinner at 1/20th of an inch (.050 / 1.27mm).
Depending on the results you want to achieve, veneer is also available in other thicknesses...
♠ 1/13th of an inch (.075 / 1.90mm)
♠ 1/16th of an inch (.062 / 1.57mm)
♠ 1/22nd of an inch (.045 / 1.14mm)
♠ 1/24th of an inch (.041 / 1.04mm)

As I said swallow your pride and move on.
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  #57  
Old 07-31-2011, 11:44 PM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

Quote:
Originally Posted by tard View Post
sure, no problem, just do me a favor there mr know it all, since were talking about the actual difference between how the terms plywood and laminate are used and not actually drums themselves call up a skateboard shop and ask why there is such a difference in price between a plywood skateboard and a laminated one, there the same right? just a sales gimmick? ask a pro skateboarder how long a plywood skateboard would last him.
Tard, high end skateboards are indeed made out of plywood. Its just higher quality plywood than the cheap decks. Because something is made of plywood doesn't mean that its cheap plywood, even though it carries that connotation for many people, and is commonly understood as such. There are a huge number of grades of plywood, from the cheapest softwood to the aircraft grade plywood used in planes in WW2, and the plywood in the highest end drums.

Laminate is simply a superset of plywood. All plywoods are laminates, some laminates are plywood. You can make a laminate from plastic, wood, or any other material. Calling any kind of plywood a "laminate" and specifying that word in opposition to "plywood" is disingenuous, and a definitely a marketing scheme/sales gimmick.

To put it simply, cheap drums are made out of cheap, low quality plywood. Expensive drums are made out of expensive, high end plywood. You can call it a laminate if you want to, but the low end drums are laminates as well. Then again, you could just play carbon fiber drums like me and avoid this whole problem from the start, haha ;)
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  #58  
Old 07-31-2011, 11:45 PM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

In case you need more.


Constructed out of 7-ply cross-laminated maple, most decks are stable and can handle daily use and hard-play. However some decks are made out of fiberglass, resin, Kevlar, bamboo, aluminum, or carbon fiber or plastic components as well in order to increase rigidity.

Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/1319413

And more....


By the 1980s 90% of all skateboard decks were made of maple plywood. Maple is very strong when fabricated into cross laminate plies. Skateboard manufacturers began to press skateboards in molds that took on three dimensional shapes. Skateboards were no longer flat pieces of wood. They started to have up turned tails and concavity. The up turned tail helped skaters turn better. The concavity helped make the skateboard stronger.

And more:

how are skatepaige.com blank skateboard decks made?
seven layers of hard rock maple veneer in alternating grain patterns are glued together and custom-molded in our industrial press, where hundreds of pounds of pressure and heat form the concave and bends. then slow cooling makes it strong and stiff, yet slightly flexible to prevent breakage.
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  #59  
Old 07-31-2011, 11:47 PM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

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Originally Posted by mediocrefunkybeat View Post
Ergo, plywood is a kind of laminate. So unless you're using exotic materials, laminates are plywood. Sorted.
again like children you guys are still arguing about my usage of the terms which is the way salesmen and manufacturing companies refer to them as well, instead of the actual point i was trying to make which was there is a reason for the difference in price between cheap "plywood" drums and high end "laminated' ones, and again i only used these terms so i didnt piss anyone off by using actual names of the products, how many times do i have to explain this, really, can no one understand this?
  #60  
Old 07-31-2011, 11:52 PM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

Quote:
Originally Posted by tard View Post
again like children you guys are still arguing about my usage of the terms which is the way salesmen and manufacturing companies refer to them as well, instead of the actual point i was trying to make which was there is a reason for the difference in price between cheap "plywood" drums and high end "laminated' ones, and again i only used these terms so i didnt piss anyone off by using actual names of the products, how many times do i have to explain this, really, can no one understand this?
I beg to differ, your original premise was that there is a difference between plywood and laminates, specifically having to do with the orientation of the grain in the different layers. The reason for the price difference in the plywood used in low end and high end drums depends on the quality of the plywood. There isn't a fundamental conceptual difference between the construction of the two.
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  #61  
Old 07-31-2011, 11:52 PM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

Tard just for the record, I take what I said back about your avatar pic. I suppose that indeed that effect could be done with a fish eye lens or something else. So I take that back.

However, I'd really like to see an example of ANY plywood that has the same grain orientation between plies (or veneers or laminates)

Can you point me in that direction?
  #62  
Old 07-31-2011, 11:53 PM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

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I beg to differ, your original premise was that there is a difference between plywood and laminates, specifically having to do with the orientation of the grain in the different layers. The reason for the price difference in the plywood used in low end and high end drums depends on the quality of the plywood. There isn't a fundamental conceptual difference between the construction of the two.
Agreed. Now you're just backpedalling because you've realised what a colossal 'tard' you've been.
  #63  
Old 07-31-2011, 11:54 PM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Tard just for the record, I take what I said back about your avatar pic. I suppose that indeed that effect could be done with a fish eye lens or something else. So I take that back.

However, I'd really like to see an example of ANY plywood that has the same grain orientation between plies (or veneers or laminates)

Can you point me in that direction?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plywood
Quote:
Special purpose plywood
Certain plywoods do not have alternating plies. These are designed for a specific purpose.
They do exist, but they're uncommon. I'm not particularly sure what they're for. I've not run across any drums that are laminated with parallel plies.
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  #64  
Old 07-31-2011, 11:55 PM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

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Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
Mr Know It All. /so you are so weak you are resorting to name calling? I'll say it again. You are wrong. Move on. And I took your advice and maybe if you did some research you too would learn something.

Skateboard Veneer

Let's start with veneer. Skateboard veneer can be broken down into three categories of plys.
Face plys, sanded or unsanded core plys and cross band plys which are generally unsanded. The way that you orient these different layers changes a board's strength, weight and feel.
A common method of arranging the plys or layers would be...
1. Face
2. Core layer
3. Cross band
4. Core layer
5. Cross band
6. Core layer
7. Face

The thickness of the veneer varies as well. Often, 1/17th of an inch (.058 / 1.47mm) for the faces and core layers and the cross bands are generally thinner at 1/20th of an inch (.050 / 1.27mm).
Depending on the results you want to achieve, veneer is also available in other thicknesses...
♠ 1/13th of an inch (.075 / 1.90mm)
♠ 1/16th of an inch (.062 / 1.57mm)
♠ 1/22nd of an inch (.045 / 1.14mm)
♠ 1/24th of an inch (.041 / 1.04mm)

As I said swallow your pride and move on.
and again you are arguing about the usage of the terms, i didnt invent the names, im just using them the way the companies do, call them up and tell them the difference not me, i dont really give a shit, some people call a car a car and a truck a truck, and some people call them all cars, and again thats not what this was about but like i said your acting like a child just wanting to argue for arguements sake, oh and btw the link to drum junction, one question, what about the steam bent shells that are more than one layer, are they considered plywood or laminate? huh? which is it?
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Old 07-31-2011, 11:58 PM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

The only childish acting one here isyou Sir. You lost your arguement many many threads ago and now are crying over our use of the terms you have no knowledge of. Good luck. Bye.
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Old 07-31-2011, 11:59 PM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

Have you ever soon a two-part steam-bent shell? I might suggest that actually, it's not really possible unless the layers are sufficiently thin. Then you end up with a laminate. Now I suggest you learn to read ad then perhaps you'll be able to write coherently too.
  #67  
Old 08-01-2011, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
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and again you are arguing about the usage of the terms, i didnt invent the names, im just using them the way the companies do, call them up and tell them the difference not me, i dont really give a shit, some people call a car a car and a truck a truck, and some people call them all cars, and again thats not what this was about but like i said your acting like a child just wanting to argue for arguements sake, oh and btw the link to drum junction, one question, what about the steam bent shells that are more than one layer, are they considered plywood or laminate? huh? which is it?
Multiple layers of wood glued together are called plywood, and are a subset of laminates. Laminates that are made of wood are called plywoods. You can mostly use the terms interchangeably, unless you're talking about a laminate not made of wood. So any plywood is also a laminate. Plywood is a kind of laminate.

Any drum company that presents a dichotomy between the two in shell construction is probably intentionally obfuscating the truth.
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Old 08-01-2011, 12:02 AM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeSnyder View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plywood


They do exist, but they're uncommon. I'm not particularly sure what they're for. I've not run across any drums that are laminated with parallel plies.
like i said i have a 2.3 mil keller shell here that is one piece of thin maple wrapped around itself to make a 12"shell 3 layers thick, and the one that was replaced was dropped and it split completely around and came apart in 2 halves, this could not have happened if the middle layer had the grain going the opposite way.
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Old 08-01-2011, 12:02 AM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

By the way, this thread has been pretty educational when it comes to shell construction, haha. Lots of good links have been posted!
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Old 08-01-2011, 12:04 AM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

Quote:
Originally Posted by tard View Post
like i said i have a 2.3 mil keller shell here that is one piece of thin maple wrapped around itself to make a 12"shell 3 layers thick, and the one that was replaced was dropped and it split completely around and came apart in 2 halves, this could not have happened if the middle layer had the grain going the opposite way.
I believe you, even though I've not run across shells constructed that way myself. However, thats pretty much a case in point as to the advantages of alternating the orientation of the plies of the laminate. Its stronger that way!
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Old 08-01-2011, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tard View Post
like i said i have a 2.3 mil keller shell here that is one piece of thin maple wrapped around itself to make a 12"shell 3 layers thick, and the one that was replaced was dropped and it split completely around and came apart in 2 halves, this could not have happened if the middle layer had the grain going the opposite way.
It's still plywood. Multiple layers glued together. Oppositional grain is not a necessity for a plywood, but it is usually the case.
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Old 08-01-2011, 12:05 AM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

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Originally Posted by LukeSnyder View Post
Multiple layers of wood glued together are called plywood, and are a subset of laminates. Laminates that are made of wood are called plywoods. You can mostly use the terms interchangeably, unless you're talking about a laminate not made of wood. So any plywood is also a laminate. Plywood is a kind of laminate.

Any drum company that presents a dichotomy between the two in shell construction is probably intentionally obfuscating the truth.
like i said earlier, everyone is still fixated on the terms themselves and not the point that was trying to be made, and again call the companies and the salesmen and tell the difference
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Old 08-01-2011, 12:08 AM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

Quote:
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like i said earlier, everyone is still fixated on the terms themselves and not the point that was trying being made, and again call the companies and the salesmen and tell the difference
I don't recommend getting your info from salespeople, they have vested interest, haha! :D

I already addressed the point you were making, and it is directly tied to the definitions of the words plywood and laminate. You draw a line between the two that doesn't really exist. Do you acknowledge this?
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Old 08-01-2011, 12:24 AM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

*grabs popcorn*

Continue gentlemen.
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Old 08-01-2011, 12:34 AM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

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Originally Posted by mediocrefunkybeat View Post
Have you ever soon a two-part steam-bent shell? I might suggest that actually, it's not really possible unless the layers are sufficiently thin. Then you end up with a laminate. Now I suggest you learn to read ad then perhaps you'll be able to write coherently too.
no i never "soon" a two-part steam built shell, but i have seen a multi layer steam bent shell, maybe you should learn to read and write coherently,,,
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Old 08-01-2011, 12:38 AM
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I don't recommend getting your info from salespeople, they have vested interest, haha! :D

I already addressed the point you were making, and it is directly tied to the definitions of the words plywood and laminate. You draw a line between the two that doesn't really exist. Do you acknowledge this?
hf, yes its basically the same thing but the companies use these terms to describe different things, and again thats not the point i was trying to make, the point was there is a difference in price between $500 kits and $5000 ones for a reason, its not my fault the companies and the salesmen call one plywood and the other a laminate.
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Old 08-01-2011, 12:40 AM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

No, you haven't. That's because it's a typo.

Who made the multi-layered steam-bent shell? I'd love to know because the expansion and contraction of solid parts of a multi-layered steam-bent shell would make the whole shell unstable and prone to cracking. It's one reason why stave drums are difficult to make and why ply drums are generally mass-manufactured in lieu of stave shells. The more solid wood, the more likely expansion and contraction in temperature and humidity will crack the shell.

See that paragraph there? That's a paragraph with sentences including capital letters, full stops, commas and hyphens. I can write quite coherently enough, certainly enough to have a good degree from a high-ranking University. If you want me to prove I can read and write coherently, I'll dig out some of my work from that degree if it would please you.
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Old 08-01-2011, 12:44 AM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

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The only childish acting one here isyou Sir. You lost your arguement many many threads ago and now are crying over our use of the terms you have no knowledge of. Good luck. Bye.
really, you keep coming back to the way the companies use those terms and trying to blame it on me like i have control over if the company calls their shells plywood or laminate, instead of the actual point that was trying to be made, and im the childish one? whatever, like i said earlier, just a bunch of children arguing just for arguments sake,
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Old 08-01-2011, 12:46 AM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

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hf, yes its basically the same thing but the companies use these terms to describe different things, and again thats not the point i was trying to make, the point was there is a difference in price between $500 kits and $5000 ones for a reason, its not my fault the companies and the salesmen call one plywood and the other a laminate.
Ok, I'm glad that's cleared up! Now, the actual reason for the price difference varies. Most of it comes down to the quality of the actual wood used, the hardware, the craftsmanship, and a couple other factors. However, the actual concept of the shell construction (layers of wood glued together with alternating ply grain) is mostly the same across the board, from HB drums up to the finest DW customs. There are aberrations of course, steambent, stave, metal, carbon fiber, acrylic, etc. But there are certainly plywood drums that cost as low as $500, and as much as $5000, and the plies have alternating grain. Its not the nature of the construction itself that dictates the price.
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Old 08-01-2011, 12:48 AM
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Default Re: Vic Firth Nova Sticks

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Originally Posted by mediocrefunkybeat View Post
No, you haven't. That's because it's a typo.

Who made the multi-layered steam-bent shell? I'd love to know because the expansion and contraction of solid parts of a multi-layered steam-bent shell would make the whole shell unstable and prone to cracking. It's one reason why stave drums are difficult to make and why ply drums are generally mass-manufactured in lieu of stave shells. The more solid wood, the more likely expansion and contraction in temperature and humidity will crack the shell.

See that paragraph there? That's a paragraph with sentences including capital letters, full stops, commas and hyphens. I can write quite coherently enough, certainly enough to have a good degree from a high-ranking University. If you want me to prove I can read and write coherently, I'll dig out some of my work from that degree if it would please you.
see, you guys just wanna argue, i didnt say it was used for drums, there actually used for wooden wheels, i just asked if a multi layered steam bend shell would be considered plywood or laminate,
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