DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > General Discussion

General Discussion General discussion forum for all drum related topics. Use this forum to exchange ideas and information with your fellow drummers.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #41  
Old 07-24-2010, 09:23 PM
Crazy8s
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

So, it seems that some people can't rationalize a price tag on some drum products. It is totally understandable to cringe at $1000 snare drum. It just means that the snare drum is not for you. Can't justify paying $1000 for a snare drum? Don't. Real simple. Get yourself a $200 snare drum made by someone 10,000 miles away from you instead. This way you even further ensure that you won't be able to afford a $1000 snare drum later down the road.

After all, you decided to give your money to a drummer very far away from you, and so did 1000's of other people. That is fine and dandy, helping out a brother far, far away, but it did NOTHING to help you or your neighbors.

By buying garbage foreign made crap because it is cheaper and you just HAVE TO HAVE something new and shiny, you are destroying your own future. The more money you send out of the country means less money for you and your neighbors, meaning less drums here in the U.S. and Europe.

Sending your money to some foreign country to buy cheap stuff ruins the music culture of your own country. Soon you will have to go to Walmart to buy your new pro drumkit because the music shops called it quits because there is no money in it.

...and then you wonder why the music sucks and why there are no US based drum companies. People need to wake up.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 07-24-2010, 09:37 PM
Steamer's Avatar
Steamer Steamer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Posts: 3,755
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy8s View Post
So, it seems that some people can't rationalize a price tag on some drum products. It is totally understandable to cringe at $1000 snare drum. It just means that the snare drum is not for you. Can't justify paying $1000 for a snare drum? Don't. Real simple. Get yourself a $200 snare drum made by someone 10,000 miles away from you instead. This way you even further ensure that you won't be able to afford a $1000 snare drum later down the road.

After all, you decided to give your money to a drummer very far away from you, and so did 1000's of other people. That is fine and dandy, helping out a brother far, far away, but it did NOTHING to help you or your neighbors.

By buying garbage foreign made crap because it is cheaper and you just HAVE TO HAVE something new and shiny, you are destroying your own future. The more money you send out of the country means less money for you and your neighbors, meaning less drums here in the U.S. and Europe.

Sending your money to some foreign country to buy cheap stuff ruins the music culture of your own country. Soon you will have to go to Walmart to buy your new pro drumkit because the music shops called it quits because there is no money in it.

...and then you wonder why the music sucks and why there are no US based drum companies. People need to wake up.
Some of these so called $1000 re-badged/re-branded snares are being made by the same folks who's fine pro series drums I proudly play made in Taiwan for the record. Truth...

Better do your research and homework since "who makes what" not really here in North America is the name of the game in our current global economy in reference to drum making from my knowledge...some stuff people think that's actually made here that isn't...enough said on that....
__________________
Stan

ISTANBUL AGOP CYMBALS
PEACE DRUMS

www.myspace.com/setstan
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 07-24-2010, 10:13 PM
Bo Eder's Avatar
Bo Eder Bo Eder is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12,918
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy8s View Post
So, it seems that some people can't rationalize a price tag on some drum products. It is totally understandable to cringe at $1000 snare drum. It just means that the snare drum is not for you. Can't justify paying $1000 for a snare drum? Don't. Real simple. Get yourself a $200 snare drum made by someone 10,000 miles away from you instead. This way you even further ensure that you won't be able to afford a $1000 snare drum later down the road.

After all, you decided to give your money to a drummer very far away from you, and so did 1000's of other people. That is fine and dandy, helping out a brother far, far away, but it did NOTHING to help you or your neighbors.

By buying garbage foreign made crap because it is cheaper and you just HAVE TO HAVE something new and shiny, you are destroying your own future. The more money you send out of the country means less money for you and your neighbors, meaning less drums here in the U.S. and Europe.

Sending your money to some foreign country to buy cheap stuff ruins the music culture of your own country. Soon you will have to go to Walmart to buy your new pro drumkit because the music shops called it quits because there is no money in it.

...and then you wonder why the music sucks and why there are no US based drum companies. People need to wake up.
I'm sorry, but what's the argument here? Sure, I get that we should put money into our own economy, but all those nice things in your house were not all made in the good 'ol U.S. of A. Got a nice tv? Got a stereo? How 'bout that Toyota in your neighbor's driveway? How 'bout that nice computer you're on the internet using? Think all that stuff is made here? I think we need to think global, as was already said.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 07-24-2010, 10:18 PM
JPW JPW is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Finland
Posts: 818
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

I have some Murat Diril cymbals and Paiste Twentys side by side on my kit. I also giggle sometimes.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 07-24-2010, 10:41 PM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 9,254
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy8s View Post
So, it seems that some people can't rationalize a price tag on some drum products. It is totally understandable to cringe at $1000 snare drum. It just means that the snare drum is not for you. Can't justify paying $1000 for a snare drum? Don't. Real simple. Get yourself a $200 snare drum made by someone 10,000 miles away from you instead. This way you even further ensure that you won't be able to afford a $1000 snare drum later down the road.

After all, you decided to give your money to a drummer very far away from you, and so did 1000's of other people. That is fine and dandy, helping out a brother far, far away, but it did NOTHING to help you or your neighbors.

By buying garbage foreign made crap because it is cheaper and you just HAVE TO HAVE something new and shiny, you are destroying your own future. The more money you send out of the country means less money for you and your neighbors, meaning less drums here in the U.S. and Europe.

Sending your money to some foreign country to buy cheap stuff ruins the music culture of your own country. Soon you will have to go to Walmart to buy your new pro drumkit because the music shops called it quits because there is no money in it.

...and then you wonder why the music sucks and why there are no US based drum companies. People need to wake up.
Well, I agree with the sentiment, but we've been down this road before.

Even on all the high end American made stuff, they all contain parts made overseas.

As as noted, many, many products sold under American brand names are in fact, made outside of the country. Some drums made outside the country contain American wood.

The rest gets into politics, and this isn't a political forum.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 07-24-2010, 10:43 PM
Crazy8s
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

It's not the price of the drum that bothers anyone. It is that they don't have the money to get what they really want. Instead, they can't wait a little longer, or work a little harder, to get the things that they want so they settle for less in a cheap product that is 'almost as good'.

It's quicker, shinier, gotta have it right f'in now and it better be cheap because I've gotta have it and all I've got is a few pennies in my pocket....

I just feel that drums are more important to our society than we give them credit for, and it hurts me at the core to see that they get trivialized to a tiny price tag because someone 10,000 miles away does fine with an 1/8th of what we make and bolts together mass produced tolerable drums.

I'm gonna stop my counter rant. I am not intending to be argumentative.

Peace,

c8s
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 07-24-2010, 11:09 PM
Crazy8s
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

I am going to insert a little of my philosophy here because I think it is important.

When I went to work at Boeing, I went in each morning with the assumption that I was going to build helicopters. I knew that helicopters are important, and everything on them is mission critical to the success and performance of the craft. I was proud and alert to go in each day and make the hundreds of little helicopter parts that I fashioned to critical tolerances so that air-evac helicopters could save lives or Longbow helicopters would get our soldiers home safely. I was but a small gear in the machine, but what I did was important to the end product as was everyone else on the Boeing team. We were proud to go to work because we were the best at what we did! Helicopters are awesome! :)

Where am I going? Right here... There was a lot of passion and knowledge involved in making helicopters by each and every person involved. There is more to it than it being an assembly of parts. There was a passion and a purpose invested into each and every little step that completed a helicopter.... just like with a drum.

Every step involved in making a drum affects the drum. Many of these effects can be heard, but some of them are more felt than heard. The way a drum feels is important. The way a drum sounds is important. The way a drum looks is important. If each and every step in making a drum is done with a passion and purpose, the result is certainly always better than if no thought at all was given to a drum.

Something done right takes time, and I know there is worth in that. How much purpose and passion was put into a $150-$200 drum? Not much. I am not trusting my gig to a $150 snare drum.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 07-24-2010, 11:20 PM
Duckenheimer's Avatar
Duckenheimer Duckenheimer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Ireland
Posts: 435
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy8s View Post
So, it seems that some people can't rationalize a price tag on some drum products. It is totally understandable to cringe at $1000 snare drum. It just means that the snare drum is not for you. Can't justify paying $1000 for a snare drum? Don't. Real simple. Get yourself a $200 snare drum made by someone 10,000 miles away from you instead. This way you even further ensure that you won't be able to afford a $1000 snare drum later down the road.

After all, you decided to give your money to a drummer very far away from you, and so did 1000's of other people. That is fine and dandy, helping out a brother far, far away, but it did NOTHING to help you or your neighbors.

By buying garbage foreign made crap because it is cheaper and you just HAVE TO HAVE something new and shiny, you are destroying your own future. The more money you send out of the country means less money for you and your neighbors, meaning less drums here in the U.S. and Europe.

Sending your money to some foreign country to buy cheap stuff ruins the music culture of your own country. Soon you will have to go to Walmart to buy your new pro drumkit because the music shops called it quits because there is no money in it.

...and then you wonder why the music sucks and why there are no US based drum companies. People need to wake up.
I thought Frederick Bastiat debunked this about 150 years ago.

*edit*

This is a witty read:

http://bastiat.org/en/petition.html
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 07-24-2010, 11:30 PM
GruntersDad's Avatar
GruntersDad GruntersDad is offline
Administrator - Mayor
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Gulf Coast Seminole, Florida
Posts: 21,851
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

It's not the price of the drum that bothers anyone. It is that they don't have the money to get what they really want.

Huh? It's not the price of the Mercedes that bothers me. It's just that I don't have the money to get one. What the hell? That makes no sense whatsoever. A lot of products made over seas are made by people working for American owned companies. All of the Corp. offices are in the States and they pay taxes on their profits. You better learn about the economy before you preach too much about it.
__________________
johnny
Suum cuique tribuere....
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 07-25-2010, 12:02 AM
Crazy8s
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
All of the Corp. offices are in the States and they pay taxes on their profits. You better learn about the economy before you preach too much about it.
What you are implying is that offshoring is good for the economy, but here we are doing more offshoring than ever before and we are in the worst economic times for almost 100 years.

I don't want this to delve into politics too much, but I think just a simple look around the U.S. economy should be proof enough that offshoring probably isn't the right thing to do for anybody.

My point in my statements is intended to encourage people to invest in themselves and their local communities. How has China and Mexico helped your community? Of course, if you live in China or Mexico, they might have, but you don't live there. You live here.

Keeping the work here prevents unemployment. Why do you think we have such high unemployment?

I am not going to tell you that you don't know what you are talking about like you did me.

Peace,
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 07-25-2010, 12:08 AM
Bo Eder's Avatar
Bo Eder Bo Eder is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12,918
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy8s View Post
It's not the price of the drum that bothers anyone. It is that they don't have the money to get what they really want. Instead, they can't wait a little longer, or work a little harder, to get the things that they want so they settle for less in a cheap product that is 'almost as good'.

It's quicker, shinier, gotta have it right f'in now and it better be cheap because I've gotta have it and all I've got is a few pennies in my pocket....

I just feel that drums are more important to our society than we give them credit for, and it hurts me at the core to see that they get trivialized to a tiny price tag because someone 10,000 miles away does fine with an 1/8th of what we make and bolts together mass produced tolerable drums.

I'm gonna stop my counter rant. I am not intending to be argumentative.

Peace,

c8s
Who is this "they" you're talking about? And why would the amount "you're" willing to wait or work for be the right right amount for everyone else? And how is that supposed to make this "they" want to buy a product that may or may not be made in America? What if the "they" are actually saving up for some Tamas, or Yamahas, or Pearls? Are you also implying that because this "they" waited for an American product that "they" are deeper people because it won't be bright and shiny? Is there something inherently wrong with bright and shiny?
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 07-25-2010, 12:12 AM
Bo Eder's Avatar
Bo Eder Bo Eder is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12,918
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy8s View Post
What you are implying is that offshoring is good for the economy, but here we are doing more offshoring than ever before and we are in the worst economic times for almost 100 years.

I don't want this to delve into politics too much, but I think just a simple look around the U.S. economy should be proof enough that offshoring probably isn't the right thing to do for anybody.

My point in my statements is intended to encourage people to invest in themselves and their local communities. How has China and Mexico helped your community? Of course, if you live in China or Mexico, they might have, but you don't live there. You live here.

Keeping the work here prevents unemployment. Why do you think we have such high unemployment?

I am not going to tell you that you don't know what you are talking about like you did me.

Peace,
So, to put this into a drumming context, when my neighbor buys the machinery to build his own line of drums, I'll be the first in line.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 07-25-2010, 12:22 AM
Crazy8s
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
Who is this "they" you're talking about? And why would the amount "you're" willing to wait or work for be the right right amount for everyone else? And how is that supposed to make this "they" want to buy a product that may or may not be made in America? What if the "they" are actually saving up for some Tamas, or Yamahas, or Pearls? Are you also implying that because this "they" waited for an American product that "they" are deeper people because it won't be bright and shiny? Is there something inherently wrong with bright and shiny?
'They' is those who fit the description I provided. 'They' may not be aware of it, or that they might not be doing the best thing for their local musical community.

If drums are part of what makes music, and you want to make music in your community, then the purist way to support music in your community is to have your community provide the musical instruments.

The surest way to take music out of your community is to give the representatives of your efforts (money) to some other community.

By getting your musical instruments from as close to your community as you can, you are doing your part in bolstering and building your communities musical culture. This philosophy is not limited to music either, it transcends all trades and products.

Think globally. Act locally.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 07-25-2010, 12:27 AM
Crazy8s
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
So, to put this into a drumming context, when my neighbor buys the machinery to build his own line of drums, I'll be the first in line.
I am 300 miles away. I am closer to being your neighbor than 99% of the drum companies. Can I count that as an order? There are several custom builders in SoCal, and while maybe not 100% of what they use is American made, an American and more specifically someone from SoCal made them. WIth that money, they put their kids through schools and food on their tables.

Seriously, there are other options. Is it mandatory that your drums have someone else's name on them? Whose name deserves to be on your drums than your own? If you can;t make them, who should you trust to make 'em?

It's your money. Buy whatever you want. There is no wrong or right, but there are consequences.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 07-25-2010, 12:36 AM
Steamer's Avatar
Steamer Steamer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Posts: 3,755
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy8s View Post

It's your money. Buy whatever you want. There is no wrong or right, but there are consequences.
Yes there's consequences.....sometimes with a much different slant you have somehow overlooked.

Example.....

I've spent some SERIOUS cash over the last many years buying products from a local CANADIAN distributor a few miles away. This has helped the CANADIAN distributor pay his bills and put his kid's through college etc...etc...etc.....in CANADA.

The drums are first class instruments made in Taiwan on the level of the so called "best" out there with one kit made out of wood from Eastern Canada the other made up from wood from Africa and the cymbals are handmade in Turkey out of their B20 bronze BUT {here's the kicker} i'm helping support the LOCAL economy in doing so in my own small way. Funny how that works isn't it?
__________________
Stan

ISTANBUL AGOP CYMBALS
PEACE DRUMS

www.myspace.com/setstan
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 07-25-2010, 12:48 AM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 9,254
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy8s View Post
I am going to insert a little of my philosophy here because I think it is important.

When I went to work at Boeing, I went in each morning with the assumption that I was going to build helicopters. I knew that helicopters are important, and everything on them is mission critical to the success and performance of the craft. I was proud and alert to go in each day and make the hundreds of little helicopter parts that I fashioned to critical tolerances so that air-evac helicopters could save lives or Longbow helicopters would get our soldiers home safely. I was but a small gear in the machine, but what I did was important to the end product as was everyone else on the Boeing team. We were proud to go to work because we were the best at what we did! Helicopters are awesome! :)

Where am I going? Right here... There was a lot of passion and knowledge involved in making helicopters by each and every person involved. There is more to it than it being an assembly of parts. There was a passion and a purpose invested into each and every little step that completed a helicopter.... just like with a drum.

Every step involved in making a drum affects the drum. Many of these effects can be heard, but some of them are more felt than heard. The way a drum feels is important. The way a drum sounds is important. The way a drum looks is important. If each and every step in making a drum is done with a passion and purpose, the result is certainly always better than if no thought at all was given to a drum.

Something done right takes time, and I know there is worth in that. How much purpose and passion was put into a $150-$200 drum? Not much. I am not trusting my gig to a $150 snare drum.
Well, perhaps that can be said about American drums today, but for a long time, it couldn't.

By the 1980's, Slingerland and Rodgers had pretty much gone under. Ludwig started to have massive quality control issues, and Gretch had it worse. It's not like cars, where people could say, "well, the overseas companies are making a better product cheaper" it was the American companies weren't even trying to compete. It's not as if Yamaha RC were cheaper than a set of Ludwigs, because they weren't.

DW was still pretty small scale in the 80's.

So for a good chunk of time, no American drum company was making drums with the same love and passion as American made helicopters.

Into the early 90's, Ludwig still had quality control issues, and you couldn't give the stuff away. Gretch got into trouble with the EPA and stopped offering most of it's products. And even when they came back, they lost your order 1/2 the time, or sent the wrong stuff. DW took a year between ordering and shipping. There weren't many choices.

GMS, Noble and Cooley and others attempted to fill the void, but none of them had the capacity to keep up.

It hasn't been until the last few years that Ludwig and Gretch got back on track and became highly respectability again. And many of their products are now made overseas.
It took DW to the end of the 90's to get their order-to-shipping time down to a respectable level. And many of their products (i.e. their PDP line) are assembled in Mexico.

There are, of course, many smaller American made manufactures, but most of their prices aren't just "need to save more." And even many of the smaller companies have lower lines made overseas.

I prefer to buy American when I can, but sometimes, there is more to than that.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 07-25-2010, 12:49 AM
Crazy8s
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steamer View Post

I've spent some SERIOUS cash over the last many years buying products from a local CANADIAN distributor a few miles away. This has helped the CANADIAN distributor pay his bills and put his kid's through college etc...etc...etc.....in CANADA.
Excellent! It sounds like dedication to your community was a factor in your buying decisions. That is all I am suggesting to others. Keep your labors close to your community whenever possible.

Peace,
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 07-25-2010, 01:07 AM
Steamer's Avatar
Steamer Steamer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Posts: 3,755
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy8s View Post
Excellent! It sounds like dedication to your community was a factor in your buying decisions. That is all I am suggesting to others. Keep your labors close to your community whenever possible.

Peace,
Yes after being very happy with the quality of products being offered we built up a level of trust like any relationship in life on a local level.

My point is we live in a global market place for better or worse {only going to be more so over time} with stuff coming from all points on the planet at present now but our buying actions regardless of the diverse sources of goods in question {sometimes from your own country but fabricated abroad and sent back} can still have a positive effect and spinoffs on the local regional economy.

Ideal completely regional buying and selling of totally locally made goods {drums, cymbals, hardware} is a very small option for most of us these days.


Peace out.....
__________________
Stan

ISTANBUL AGOP CYMBALS
PEACE DRUMS

www.myspace.com/setstan
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 07-25-2010, 01:47 AM
Bo Eder's Avatar
Bo Eder Bo Eder is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12,918
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy8s View Post
'They' is those who fit the description I provided. 'They' may not be aware of it, or that they might not be doing the best thing for their local musical community.

If drums are part of what makes music, and you want to make music in your community, then the purist way to support music in your community is to have your community provide the musical instruments.

The surest way to take music out of your community is to give the representatives of your efforts (money) to some other community.

By getting your musical instruments from as close to your community as you can, you are doing your part in bolstering and building your communities musical culture. This philosophy is not limited to music either, it transcends all trades and products.

Think globally. Act locally.
That's just it, you didn't provide a description. Enlighten me, at least. You went off on people buying stuff from far away, and you're talking about consequences of their actions, but you didn't clearly state who these people are. I figure the way you're talking, you'll probably be able to do that too.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 07-25-2010, 01:50 AM
GruntersDad's Avatar
GruntersDad GruntersDad is offline
Administrator - Mayor
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Gulf Coast Seminole, Florida
Posts: 21,851
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy8s View Post
What you are implying is that offshoring is good for the economy, but here we are doing more offshoring than ever before and we are in the worst economic times for almost 100 years.

I don't want this to delve into politics too much, but I think just a simple look around the U.S. economy should be proof enough that offshoring probably isn't the right thing to do for anybody.

My point in my statements is intended to encourage people to invest in themselves and their local communities. How has China and Mexico helped your community? Of course, if you live in China or Mexico, they might have, but you don't live there. You live here.

Keeping the work here prevents unemployment. Why do you think we have such high unemployment?

I am not going to tell you that you don't know what you are talking about like you did me.

Peace,
If you kept the work here, you couldn't afford anything. The cost of labor is so much less off shore that it makes it more affordable for us. Keep the work here and unemployment will go up not down. People here will not work for 25.00 a week.

Sorry but I don't think you do know what you are talking about. If Americans made Nike shoes they would cost 300.00 dollars. Why do you think so much of our economy is off shore??? think about it.
__________________
johnny
Suum cuique tribuere....
Reply With Quote
  #61  
Old 07-25-2010, 01:52 AM
GruntersDad's Avatar
GruntersDad GruntersDad is offline
Administrator - Mayor
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Gulf Coast Seminole, Florida
Posts: 21,851
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

But those cymbals weren't made in Canada. Stan you are helping the people in Turkey more than Canada, and I have no problem with that.
__________________
johnny
Suum cuique tribuere....
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 07-25-2010, 01:56 AM
Bo Eder's Avatar
Bo Eder Bo Eder is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12,918
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy8s View Post
I am 300 miles away. I am closer to being your neighbor than 99% of the drum companies. Can I count that as an order? There are several custom builders in SoCal, and while maybe not 100% of what they use is American made, an American and more specifically someone from SoCal made them. WIth that money, they put their kids through schools and food on their tables.

Seriously, there are other options. Is it mandatory that your drums have someone else's name on them? Whose name deserves to be on your drums than your own? If you can;t make them, who should you trust to make 'em?

It's your money. Buy whatever you want. There is no wrong or right, but there are consequences.
I am so glad this whole thread went socio-political. You're right. I'll buy whatever I want. It's all my money. What do I care about any consequences? That's the great thing about being an American, isn't it? I don't have to care. Listening to this drivel is making me care even less. In global terms, you're talking about an industry that is tiny compared to others. Hell, even building helicopters is tiny compared to other items made, bought and sold on a daily basis. When you've turned the auto, the food, the housing, the electronics, the medical, and all the other industries, then lets talk. Go global in what you want to change, then get back to me.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 07-25-2010, 02:01 AM
Crazy8s
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
If you kept the work here, you couldn't afford anything. The cost of labor is so much less off shore that it makes it more affordable for us. Keep the work here and unemployment will go up not down. People here will not work for 25.00 a week.

Sorry but I don't think you do know what you are talking about. If Americans made Nike shoes they would cost 300.00 dollars. Why do you think so much of our economy is off shore??? think about it.
Thank you again for telling me I don't know what I am talking about. It is perfectly fine that you don't share the same opinion, but it doesn't automatically mean that I know less than you. In fact, your statement about Nike demonstrates that you know less than you think you do.

Do you really think it would cost $300 to make a pair of Nike in the U.S.? There are companies that make similar shoes here in the U.S. that cost much less than $300, and they sell them just fine in the $50 range and manage to turn profit.

Seriously, are you always so quick to put others down? You are putting yourself down by sending you rmoney across the ocean just to save a couple bucks because you didn't want to pay an American a fair wage.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 07-25-2010, 02:04 AM
Steamer's Avatar
Steamer Steamer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Posts: 3,755
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
But those cymbals weren't made in Canada. Stan you are helping the people in Turkey more than Canada, and I have no problem with that.
I know that GD...read my point on it my friend about the bigger economic picture in regards to their distribution down the next leg in the road.

Local regional economy is supported by the purchase from the distributor of foreign goods helping the distributor in return to help support himself and his business and in doing so doing his bit to support the local regional economy. This is how the business of the exchange of foreign goods works on the global scale these days. No man or company is a island........
__________________
Stan

ISTANBUL AGOP CYMBALS
PEACE DRUMS

www.myspace.com/setstan
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 07-25-2010, 02:06 AM
Crazy8s
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post

I don't mean to rant, but am I wrong here? I hope so. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this issue. (Maybe I should've put this in 'Off-topic'? But I figure I'm talking about drumming and economy in general.....)
You didn't mean to rant, but that didn't stop you from doing it. Now when things have taken a turn that you don't agree with you want to back out and cry foul.

Yet there you are in your avatar, sporting an overpriced DW kit and obviously being proud enough of it to sport in your avatar which goes in every post that you make.

Consequences. We talked about that earlier in this very thread. Take responsibility for your musical culture that you wish to be a part of and demonstrate your authenticity to your words.

Peace.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 07-25-2010, 02:13 AM
Crazy8s
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
But those cymbals weren't made in Canada. Stan you are helping the people in Turkey more than Canada, and I have no problem with that.
Great cymbals are made in Canada by Sabian. Great cymbals are made in the US by Zildjian. Paiste and Meinl and UFIP in Europe. Turkey produces amazing cymbals. Even China makes some awesome cymbals.

What you are getting from them is a flavor of the culture that spawned that craft. Cymbal making is a little bit of a different beast than drummaking, as it is generally a trade shared through generations of apprentices who commit their lives to making cymbals. You know you will be getting your money's worth, and they aren't generally cheap.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 07-25-2010, 02:16 AM
GruntersDad's Avatar
GruntersDad GruntersDad is offline
Administrator - Mayor
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Gulf Coast Seminole, Florida
Posts: 21,851
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy8s View Post
Thank you again for telling me I don't know what I am talking about. It is perfectly fine that you don't share the same opinion, but it doesn't automatically mean that I know less than you. In fact, your statement about Nike demonstrates that you know less than you think you do.

Do you really think it would cost $300 to make a pair of Nike in the U.S.? There are companies that make similar shoes here in the U.S. that cost much less than $300, and they sell them just fine in the $50 range and manage to turn profit.

Seriously, are you always so quick to put others down? You are putting yourself down by sending you rmoney across the ocean just to save a couple bucks because you didn't want to pay an American a fair wage.
Name one US company that makes shoes like Nike that sell for 50.00. And I didn't say it would cost 300.00 to make them but that they would cost 300.00 to buy. you are just as wacky here as you are over at Ghostnote.com. Did you give up over there and decide to come here and give advice?
__________________
johnny
Suum cuique tribuere....
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 07-25-2010, 02:28 AM
Steamer's Avatar
Steamer Steamer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Posts: 3,755
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy8s View Post
Great cymbals are made in Canada by Sabian. Great cymbals are made in the US by Zildjian. Paiste and Meinl and UFIP in Europe. Turkey produces amazing cymbals. Even China makes some awesome cymbals.

What you are getting from them is a flavor of the culture that spawned that craft. Cymbal making is a little bit of a different beast than drummaking, as it is generally a trade shared through generations of apprentices who commit their lives to making cymbals. You know you will be getting your money's worth, and they aren't generally cheap.
Wonderful sounding drums of a high level of detailed craftsmanship are being made all over the world at present so things are no different really for drums in my view compared to cymbals. Important lessons learned in the past about how to build fine quality sounding drums have just been embraced by state of the art production factories using the latest technological advances {perfect laser cut bearing edges on shell ply type drums as just one example} many of them abroad. If you don't believe i'll send you a free CD or 2 of said example of such drums in question in context in the music :}

This old made strickly in USA better quality than everything else out there argument doesn't hold much water anymore i'm afraid in the current situation with the making high quality drums on the global market. Put tape over all the logos and compare the various kits of all the companies in question side by side with decent tuning and good heads at the hands of any skilled drummer and tell me honestly who made what.....on?
__________________
Stan

ISTANBUL AGOP CYMBALS
PEACE DRUMS

www.myspace.com/setstan
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 07-25-2010, 02:38 AM
GruntersDad's Avatar
GruntersDad GruntersDad is offline
Administrator - Mayor
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Gulf Coast Seminole, Florida
Posts: 21,851
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

This old made strickly in USA better quality than everything else out there argument doesn't hold much water anymore i'm afraid in the current situation with the making high quality drums on the global market. Put tape over all the logos and compare the various kits of all the companies in question side by side with decent tuning and good heads at the hands of any skilled drummer and tell me honestly who made what.....on?
_______
Agreed. And the cost is so much less. As has been said many times on this forum, mid level drums sound as good today as some of the top of the line did 30 years ago.
All because of the cheaper labor charges. Some of the companies top of the line drums are made in the US and all of the prices are outrageous. DW, Gretsch USA. Ludwig.
__________________
johnny
Suum cuique tribuere....
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 07-25-2010, 02:39 AM
Pocket-full-of-gold's Avatar
Pocket-full-of-gold Pocket-full-of-gold is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia.
Posts: 11,215
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy8s View Post
Sending your money to some foreign country to buy cheap stuff ruins the music culture of your own country. Soon you will have to go to Walmart to buy your new pro drumkit because the music shops called it quits because there is no money in it.

People need to wake up.
I send my hard earned off to a "foreign country" just about everytime I buy drum gear. Often it's Japan, other times it's China or any number of Asian countries....but guess what "foreign country" sees most of my coin?..........The good old US of A! Or is that different because now it's your economy who benefits from my dollars?

Nothing to do with "working a little harder" or "waiting a little longer" at all. Buying foreign is relative to where you live.......and it costs me top dollar to buy Made In (Foreign) USA.

I'll send my money to whomever makes what I need. Simple.

Last edited by Pocket-full-of-gold; 07-25-2010 at 06:27 AM. Reason: Clarification
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 07-25-2010, 02:54 AM
GruntersDad's Avatar
GruntersDad GruntersDad is offline
Administrator - Mayor
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Gulf Coast Seminole, Florida
Posts: 21,851
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

When I was young, all of the toys bought said made in Japan, not China. I'm not sure when or why that changed, but I am guessing that the biggest reason is that Japan has an economy more like ours than China. Just a guess. The other day while discussing this very thing at work, one of the girls asked me if all of the products in China had stickers that said, Made in China. I told her the labels all said, Made Right Around the Corner.
__________________
johnny
Suum cuique tribuere....
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 07-25-2010, 05:24 AM
bobdadruma's Avatar
bobdadruma bobdadruma is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: second measure of a fill-in
Posts: 11,292
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Expensive drums are made in Asia in the same factories that make less expensive drums.
We have no control of where a product is made.

I buy what I can afford.
I buy used whenever I can.

It would be foolish for me to buy an expensive drum kit.

I don't make anything but gas and beer money playing the drums
I can't tell the difference between the sound of an expensive kit vs an inexpensive kit.
I don't have disposable income right now to buy an expensive kit.
I don't have any problems with my inexpensive kits. I'm happy with them.

Why should I pay money for something that I don't want or need?
Buying an expensive kit would be wrong for me in so many ways.

I buy new and used expensive cymbals because I like what I hear when I play them. I can hear the difference so I spend the extra cash on my pies.
Some are made in the US, Some are made in Turkey. I have no control over that.

Almost all of the drum companies use at least some components that are made in Asian factories.
__________________
I kind of like old drums:)

Last edited by bobdadruma; 07-25-2010 at 06:00 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 07-25-2010, 05:36 AM
Homeularis's Avatar
Homeularis Homeularis is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: San Francisco/Oakland East Bay, CA, USA
Posts: 1,063
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Bottom line, I want to play now or at least soon and not a year or so from now. I want a six piece kit because it will allow me to play all the things I need to play and wont limit me. If I am limited, I am not free and I might as well not play because I wont be as motivated or inspired.

The drums are basically secondary to me in a way, I mean I need my 8"10"12"14"14"22" to play what I need to play but they dont need to be top notch,super expensive,American or German made drums. They just have to look,play and sound good. Where I dont compromise is in my snare,cymbals,pedals,heads,sticks and hardware. I buy all high end there.
As far as durability... well thats just something that time will tell. I have read hundreds of threads on multiple forums and I have yet to hear someone talk about how their middle of the road drum kit fell apart due to heavy use, so im gonna take my chances. Besides, at $650.00 they are almost disposible anyway.

I purchased a Sonor Force 3007 kit plus hardware pack for $900.00 and I love it. If I were to buy something comparable by say DW,Ludwig or Gretsch USA I would have to put away hundreds every month for a year or so, or go into debt with a loan and I cant afford that. Alot of us cant and thats why we look elsewhere.
Oh, and the middle of the road Sonor 400 series hardware is very well made,looks great, is perfectly weighted and is totally on par with high end metal.

Last edited by Homeularis; 07-25-2010 at 06:10 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 07-25-2010, 05:38 AM
Bo Eder's Avatar
Bo Eder Bo Eder is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12,918
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy8s View Post
You didn't mean to rant, but that didn't stop you from doing it. Now when things have taken a turn that you don't agree with you want to back out and cry foul.

Yet there you are in your avatar, sporting an overpriced DW kit and obviously being proud enough of it to sport in your avatar which goes in every post that you make.

Consequences. We talked about that earlier in this very thread. Take responsibility for your musical culture that you wish to be a part of and demonstrate your authenticity to your words.

Peace.
Dude, you have some issues. Who says I'm backing out and crying foul? You began your rantings without really explaining what you're talking about, or who you're talking about. You assume we should all think like you. You're like the country music video channel in the '80s when they were pushing "Made in the U.S.A." bullcrap - and then every video you see Japanese drums or Roland keyboards. They wised up, apparently you didn't get the memo. When you make a better argument and provide a solution rather than telling us we're all going to hell because of our choices, for now, I'm calling you an idiot. Thanks for ruining a perfectly good thread. Now go away and start your own discussion - on some other forum in another corner of the internet.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 07-25-2010, 06:06 AM
Retrovertigo Retrovertigo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 246
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy8s View Post
How much purpose and passion was put into a $150-$200 drum? Not much. I am not trusting my gig to a $150 snare drum.
i just played the greatest kit of my life tonight. it was a gretsch round badge kit. early 60's i believe. it's for sale for $1000. im going to scramble for the cash. should i offer to pay more so i can be sure it's cool? it sounded great with my 65 supra-phonic. price on that - $150. i would trust every gig on that snare.
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 07-25-2010, 06:26 AM
bobdadruma's Avatar
bobdadruma bobdadruma is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: second measure of a fill-in
Posts: 11,292
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Retrovertigo View Post
i just played the greatest kit of my life tonight. it was a gretsch round badge kit. early 60's i believe. it's for sale for $1000. im going to scramble for the cash. should i offer to pay more so i can be sure it's cool? it sounded great with my 65 supra-phonic. price on that - $150. i would trust every gig on that snare.
No, you better ditch that $150 snare. Those Supra-Phonic's don't have a very good track record! LOL!!!
I'll trade you my $400 dollar black Panther for It.
And those old Round Badges, I wouldn't be caught dead behind that kit!
__________________
I kind of like old drums:)
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 07-25-2010, 06:28 AM
aydee aydee is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,418
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

...

I dont think there's a right or wrong, Bo. You have made a series of correct assumptions, but everyone can apply it to their own lives differently.

Yes, the economy still sucks. Companies are starting to make money again but are hesitant to hire due to an uncertain forecast. They have also adapted to the new circumstances and learnt to get things done at lower operating costs with fewer people.

Drum production over recent years has more or less achieved technical parity. Sure, some Sonors, Yammies, DWs etc might be qualitatively superior to the rest, but by and large if you put a sticker over the brand name, there wouldn't be a huge difference in looks or sound.

The Made in the USA, Made in Germany tags are fast losing out to Made in China, made in Taiwan. Whereas 10 years ago there might have been a dramatic difference in quality between the two worlds, now its marginal. Same quality at 1/3rd the price is the economic argument the world faces today.

All these might add up to make us think rationally about our purchases of drums, guitars, cars, bikes etc but people are'nt rational. They are emotional.

Why must a DW set cost $3,000? Easy. Because someone is willing to pay that much for it. Its as simple as that.

Who needs Hugo Boss jeans. I do.


...
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 07-25-2010, 06:32 AM
Crazy8s
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Retrovertigo View Post
i just played the greatest kit of my life tonight. it was a gretsch round badge kit. early 60's i believe. it's for sale for $1000. im going to scramble for the cash. should i offer to pay more so i can be sure it's cool? it sounded great with my 65 supra-phonic. price on that - $150. i would trust every gig on that snare.
There are a lot great used snares that sell for $150! They weren't that cheap when they were new. Supraphonics sell for how much new?
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 07-25-2010, 06:48 AM
Ekim Ekim is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN, USA, Planet Earth
Posts: 676
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Were I playing out, it would be only with my beat-up 80s Tama Swingstars. I don't care what anyone thinks of my drums' looks. If it costs me a gig, so be it. If they want a certain look, they can provide the drums.

I've heard cheap drums sound great with good heads and tuning. There's no reason to spend a ton of dough on drums when well over 95% of the audience is not going to notice and of those 5% that do, 80% of THOSE will not care so long as they sound good.
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 07-25-2010, 08:02 AM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 3,972
Default Re: The expensive drum stigma....

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
Doctors don't drive Chevys.
In music big incomes are somewhat rare. OK, more than somewhat. I know guys- pros- who have played the same funky 70's fiberglass drums for 30 years, or play home made stave drums, or mismatched pieced-together sets, all kinds of things. Everyone I know who actually plays buys smart- they get stuff used, they'll play cheap compact sets like the Gretsch Catalinas; maybe they'll make one big purchase every couple of decades. Or they'll concentrate their purchases in area, spending relatively a lot of money on cymbals, snare drums, recording gear or whatever. They tend to be lucky in finding bargains. The expensive "dream" gear gets bought by guys with good-paying normal jobs- the type of people who also have jet skis, home theaters, new cars and such.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com