Drum Solo Final Verison

[cleith]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds9Obz2rfsM

hey guys im in the finals for an online competition... this is my final drum solo for it so let me know what you think of it, constructive criticism is always appreciated! -cleith

[Fox622003]

I can't imagine how bad the other contestants must be if you made it to the finals. This *is*, again, constructive criticism, if you look around the forum I am often quite harsh, but on the people who get it right, I compliment them and tell them exactly what I liked. In this case, I'll try to mention all that I didn't like.
Again, the first thing I noticed is the overall untight feel to your playing, it's all over the place, no groove, either. You seem to like...miss what you wanted to hit at times. The main idea that I get here is that you know things, and you've practised them, obviously, but rhythmically, this is very poor and unprecise, so while you might had worked on your drumming physically, this is as solid as I was when I had been playing for about a year (which is very little, I was absolutely horrible when I started drumming). Alright, now that I've analysed the objective parameters of the drumming in this video, I'll go to the subjective (although, of course, I'm using more or less the current "universal" appraising paradigm, so I am not sure how subjective this can be considered...). Again, the solo isn't interesting at all from a composition point of view, it's VERY random, you're just hitting things, and poorly. There's not ONE, SINGLE interesting element here, nothing I can say "Woah, that's some great feeling he put in that" or "Nice, that's a very original part", or "Those are some tight dynamics". So, it's neither original, groundbreaking, or well played. There's nothing positive I can say about this at all. You haven't liked my criticism in the past, so you must think I have something personal against you, or just have a chip on my shoulder, but I assure you that is not the case, I'm just reporting on what's being played there, it could be Peter Erskine playing that, and I would have the same opinion.
And yet again, this doesn't mean "give up drumming", but you seriously have to work on *all* the skills that are essential to a drummer, because you are lacking all of them (in different degrees, and never absolutely, but it's very noticeable). Find yourself a good teacher and study, I don't know what else to say.
Also, man, how can you leave a take where you miss things and click your sticks together like 4 times? This has nothing to do with drumming, it's just common sense...I would leave a take where a ghost note was too loud, but that's it, I'd never have a final cut where there was an actual MISTAKE.


Fox.

[sebob]

Fox, your critic seems a little bit hard, no? I mean, there's bad point for sure in this solo like in every solo, but there's a lot of interesting stuff too.

In my opinion, it's a really good and creative solo. Keep it up!

[GRUNTERSDAD]

I think the part at about 35 - 45 seconds the main theme here was to hit the bass drum and a cymbal 5 times over and over. It gets old real quick. You seem stiff and there is no flow. Start off with a beat and build on it and then get back to it in the end. I think you tried to do too much and in doing so you got out of sync and kind of lost the timing. Hope this didn't hurt too much but it is what you asked for. Honest critique. Keep working.

[cleith]

thanks GRUNTERSDAD I always appreciate critique like that, I will try to work on it! thank you

[maddrummr]

I'm not doubting your ability or anything...but there are certain points in the video that look like you had sped it up a notch. But anyway i really like what you are playing and your drums sound pretty nice.

[cleith]

i didnt speed up the video at all, and thank you (:

[Fox622003]

Originally Posted by sebob

Fox, your critic seems a little bit hard, no? I mean, there's bad point for sure in this solo like in every solo, but there's a lot of interesting stuff too.

In my opinion, it's a really good and creative solo. Keep it up!

Good and creative stuff? Like what?
It's hard, but it's honest, and I really wish I had someone to point out exactly what's wrong with my playing when I was just starting out. The truth is he is just hitting stuff, there's nothing creative in there, so even if his playing was 100% correct, it would still be a bad solo in my opinion, but his playing is very far from 100% correct, hence my critique, but I'm going to stop commenting here, since the guy who posted in the first place obviously can't take a full and complete piece of criticism, and if there had been an element that I thought was good and worth keeping, I would had mentioned it. Another thing that's a problem for me is the fact that he left a solo that has mistakes in it, this is a studio performance, it's not very difficult to just do another take.
But anyway, with people that just can't be blatantly honest, he can just keep doing what he's doing, and you can keep complimenting his fantastic playing, I'm sure he'll appreciate it, an awesome way to get good. Can't wait to see him on the MD Fest!



Fox.

[Biscuit]

Fox622003 took the words right out of my mouth. I love his honesty and that's what, i think, we could all use one in a while. If i were to make a solo and post it here and everyone thought it was crap but told me it was ok then that isn't going to help me get any better.

cleith don't take his opinion personal because he is just being honest. Take it as creative advice and just work a little harder on your solo's. This is a good place for advice and i would rather have an honest opinion no matter how bad it was than someone telling me i did ok and it was actually horible.

Keep playing and just work on it a little. Later my friend.

[cleith]

I asked for advice in the first place, haha geez relax I appreciate your input Fox. Lets not rant anymore, i understand what you are trying to tell me. thank you.

[sebob]

Honesty is a quality for sure, but, I don't know, there's better way to be honest than the way you did. I'm sure it's really helpful to ear everythings that's wrong to improve yourself, but when you said " I can't imagine how bad the other contestants must be if you made it to the finals", I just think it wasn't necessary to make him understand what was wrong in his solo.

Anyway, it's not the end of the world. Just my point.

peace

[beefythedrummer]

Even though solos are usually chops heavy there is usually some theme or a certain feel that is present through the entire thing. So if I had to point out one thing that was missing from your solo it would be coherence. It sounded like you took your favorite fills that you like to play and spliced them together.

If you're willing to take some "advice," even though I'm not even sure if I'm qualified to give it lol, is just to tighten up your playing. Work on your left hand so that your fills sound consistent all the way through. Also, that way if you're playing a pattern like you did on the cowbell your snare can still sound strong. Get that down and perfectly in time, I think you could probably play the exact same thing you did in the video and win your competition.

[keep it simple]

Cleith,

please find below my post from your previous solo thread. Apart from the specific references, both my observations and advice are the same. You're still trying to pull all your tricks into one passage and both timing & composition suffer accordingly. There's glimmers of skill in there, but you're not showing your ability in the best light. I was hoping you would have taken some of the advice on board from last time.

keep it simple
Platinum Member Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Herefordshire UK
Posts: 1,629

Re: Check Out My Improvised Drum Solo!!!

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I thought there were attractive elements in your performance but it lacks composition & a sense of journey. Timing & groove content was especially poor. I think you're trying just a bit too hard. You have some skills, but they need placing in context and controlling to bring out the best in your playing. Concentrating on speed & trying to squash all your box of tricks into a small space is not a good way forward.

From the start to 0.13 is quite good. I especially like the little groove from 0.12 to 0.13. I'd consider extending that groove and using it as part of your solo default platform. Tempo change at 0.14 is counter productive. Fill at 0.26 to 0.28 is nice, but the rest is a train crash, mainly due to poor timing, tempo control and a total lack of composition.

I think you can do so much better by taking several steps back & concentrating on stuff you can deliver without effort, with feel & dynamics taking centre stage, using a groove as your platform, & introducing progression + conclusion.

I applaud your enthusiasm and desire to impress, but I also thing those are the very things that are holding you back. Good luck, KIS.
__________________
Let it breathe

[Tully Lee]

After being away from my drums for 20 years I have pulled them out. I had a fellow drummer friend of mine is is Berkley trained with tons of touring and recording experence under his belt come over and check out my playing.


I got behind my kit and played for five minutes. Asked his is honest opnion. Got it and felt let down. Said I was to rigid and not much groove and etc.....

Glad he was honest. Why? Because it gave me more drive to get back on the saddle and "really" study and work that much harder at my drumming. And, I can't wait to have him back in six months to check me out again. I know 100% for sure he will see a ton of improvement and I will play with more feel and groove.

Tully Lee

[cleith]

i feel you, its so true.

[timebandit]

Hey kid, Your on the right path! Don't try to put all your chops in every measure. I've learned over the last 30 years of drumming, that the actual goal is "musicality" first, it needs to sound "pleasing" to the ear. The untrained ear. You definitely have the chops, the coordination and the ability to be a great drummer. You may find that your "solo" may sound better and be easier to execute at a slower bpm. Try and take those individual ideas and patterns and break them down, focus on the sticking, the timing and the pattern. once you have that effortless, then bring it up to speed. Your doin' just fine and your very creative. You have to learn to walk before you can run. I've been playing 33 years and i'm still building and rebuilding. Keep it up! And one more thing........when a guy writes a 500 word essay on "how bad he thinks your playing is" and offers no ideas or advice on how to help you.....they usually can't back it up. Sounds like jealousy to me.

[cleith]

ok thanks thats the kind of advice i was looking for (: haha

[timebandit]

Originally Posted by Fox622003

I can't imagine how bad the other contestants must be if you made it to the finals. This *is*, again, constructive criticism, if you look around the forum I am often quite harsh, but on the people who get it right, I compliment them and tell them exactly what I liked. In this case, I'll try to mention all that I didn't like.
Again, the first thing I noticed is the overall untight feel to your playing, it's all over the place, no groove, either. You seem to like...miss what you wanted to hit at times. The main idea that I get here is that you know things, and you've practised them, obviously, but rhythmically, this is very poor and unprecise, so while you might had worked on your drumming physically, this is as solid as I was when I had been playing for about a year (which is very little, I was absolutely horrible when I started drumming). Alright, now that I've analysed the objective parameters of the drumming in this video, I'll go to the subjective (although, of course, I'm using more or less the current "universal" appraising paradigm, so I am not sure how subjective this can be considered...). Again, the solo isn't interesting at all from a composition point of view, it's VERY random, you're just hitting things, and poorly. There's not ONE, SINGLE interesting element here, nothing I can say "Woah, that's some great feeling he put in that" or "Nice, that's a very original part", or "Those are some tight dynamics". So, it's neither original, groundbreaking, or well played. There's nothing positive I can say about this at all. You haven't liked my criticism in the past, so you must think I have something personal against you, or just have a chip on my shoulder, but I assure you that is not the case, I'm just reporting on what's being played there, it could be Peter Erskine playing that, and I would have the same opinion.
And yet again, this doesn't mean "give up drumming", but you seriously have to work on *all* the skills that are essential to a drummer, because you are lacking all of them (in different degrees, and never absolutely, but it's very noticeable). Find yourself a good teacher and study, I don't know what else to say.
Also, man, how can you leave a take where you miss things and click your sticks together like 4 times? This has nothing to do with drumming, it's just common sense...I would leave a take where a ghost note was too loud, but that's it, I'd never have a final cut where there was an actual MISTAKE.


Fox.

Maybe you should "analyze" your own playing! who are you to judge anybody......and who cares what you have to say........your not that good! Maybe if you had something "impressive" to show us, what you say mite matter.....but obviously you DO NOT! So quit being so tough on a guy who's only tryin' to improve on his playing! Put your money where your mouth is.......give the kid a reason why your "ignorant critique" should mean anything to him, or anybody for that matter!

[Fox622003]

Originally Posted by timebandit

Maybe you should "analyze" your own playing! who are you to judge anybody......and who cares what you have to say........your not that good! Maybe if you had something "impressive" to show us, what you say mite matter.....but obviously you DO NOT! So quit being so tough on a guy who's only tryin' to improve on his playing! Put your money where your mouth is.......give the kid a reason why your "ignorant critique" should mean anything to him, or anybody for that matter!

What's wrong with my playing? I even uploaded a transcription in another thread because a guy complained, and he never answered back. The video I have uploaded isn't even a solo or for a competition, yet, it complies with all the basic standards. Played to a metronome, good timing, good dynamics, a certain groove. Interesting rhythmic illusions. I don't miss a drum at any moment, my technique is correct. In fact, I doubt you can even grasp that last part (and that's why you really don't qualify to have an opinion, whereas, I could write down this guy's solo in a first listen [If I knew how to write it when you miss drums], and play it better without practice), and trust me, I can play stuff a lot more difficult, I was just improvising some things that I thought were somewhat interesting.

HERE is the video again. Below is the transcription of the part that starts at 2:08. I doubt you, or "cleith", even understand the concepts behind 80% on the transcribed part. So how can you have a relevant opinion of it?
As on the video description, I'm getting recording gear soon, that was recorded with a computer microphone, so the sound is not on my side.
There are obviously people on this forum who DO understand what I'm playing, and can definitely play better and more interesting stuff than me.
And the "ignorant" part is funny. I'm pretty sure you can't even read my transcription. I heard some of your songs, too, don't you ever get tired of playing your snare on 2 & 4?

I appologize my fellow Drummerworld users who understand where I'm coming from with my critique for the arrogance displayed above, but I just got tired of giving educated critique, and have people complain, then just critique my playing out of spite, with NO foundation (which I would really appreciate, actually, but so far no one has had anything specific to point out).


Fox.

[timebandit]

Hey Fox, Do me, yourself and everybody else on this forum...a favor......quit assuming you know what another guy is capable of.

You absolutely do not! Yes I play in a few "rock" cover bands, that does not mean I can't play...or understand odd time signatures. I was playing odd meter stuff....yEArs before you were even born. So please........don't tell me about odd time. I was playing in a seriously odd meter fusion band, before YOU even knew how to walk-talk-or even crawl. So really.....don't assume. You would be *way* wrong.

I'm not saying you are a bad drummer...you and I, both know that is not true. But what I am saying is, give us a better reason why your an authority on the subject. Other than some simple transcript your not even playing correctly....and you know that, as well as i do. And your little fill at 2:08....are we really suposed to be impressed by that....come on.

[Fox622003]

Originally Posted by timebandit

Hey Fox, Do me, yourself and everybody else on this forum...a favor......quit assuming you know what another guy is capable of.

You absolutely do not! Yes I play in a few "rock" cover bands, that does not mean I can't play...or understand odd time signatures. I was playing odd meter stuff....yEArs before you were even born. So please........don't tell me about odd time. I was playing in a seriously odd meter fusion band, before YOU even knew how to walk-talk-or even crawl. So really.....don't assume. You would be *way* wrong.

I'm not saying you are a bad drummer...you and I, both know that is not true. But what I am saying is, give us a better reason why your an authority on the subject. Other than some simple transcript your not even playing correctly....and you know that, as well as i do. And your little fill at 2:08....are we really suposed to be impressed by that....come on.

I'm playing the transcription note for note (and at the same exact tempo), I wrote it after I played it. I'm not talking about the fill at 2:08, just the whole section, which is a part with some whacky stuff, but definitely not the way I play, just stuff to mess about a bit. And the concept behind the transcription are not really all that simple, a lot is very similar to stuff Gavin Harrison plays, and he's got several DVDs on the subject...
There are NO odd time signatures here, if you notice at the beginning of the transcription it says "4/4". it's just displaced. I'd like to see you play the fill at the beginning to a metronome in 4/4, though (and since you mentioned it), given your vast experience.
But anyway, I don't expect anyone to be impressed by this video in relatively low quality, and vastly random. What I do expect, however, is for people to see I can actually play some tricky stuff, and write it down note for note afterwards, and as for the cover sections on the video, I can also grasp what other drummers are playing. So I obviously know what I'm talking about when I give out very specific critique, it wasn't a huge post just saying "You suck!", it was a huge post describing what I found lacking in the video, and how it should be changed, in my opinion (which is a very encompassing one).
I think you just got mad at me because I was being very negative, but as I have stated repeatedly in the past few days, there's nothing I needed more than the rough critique I got when I was just starting out, where I actually did suck, and had nothing that really stood out.
I never said I was an authority, though. Those are your words.
Also, there are still huge flaws in my playing, but they are not shown there. That's the main point I try to convey on this studio performance videos for competitions and what-not. If you can do tons of takes, why not do 100, and use the one where you nailed it?
You obviously have no argument to say mine is "ignorant critique" as you said, and according to the other people who commented, my critique was apparently very spot on, so I clearly don't need a degree to figure out what's wrong with cleith's video. I'm tired of discussing with you, and the other people who put my playing down because they are just annoyed at my comments. This is my last post in this thread.


Fox.

[Pollyanna]

Fox, I like your posts. You're like the Simon Cowell of Drummerworld - the guy who says what he thinks without pulling punches.

I think that kind of straight talk is valuable and, together with the more encouraging comments, helps to provide overall balance.

Keep up the good work! :)

[Therma lobsterdore]

Why complain about somebodies opinion when it was asked for by the OP? Seems silly to me, even if the opinion does seem harsh (or just truthful). Keep on commenting Fox.

Anywho Cleith, your definitely a better drummer than me! But the whole solo seemed slightly off in terms of time and groove, and you look uncomfortable, but you have got good control and chops. I think much the same about my own solo's, like me your not at the level yet where you can pull things off and get them nicely in time everytime.

[Coldhardsteel]

Originally Posted by timebandit

Maybe you should "analyze" your own playing! who are you to judge anybody......and who cares what you have to say........your not that good! Maybe if you had something "impressive" to show us, what you say mite matter.....but obviously you DO NOT! So quit being so tough on a guy who's only tryin' to improve on his playing! Put your money where your mouth is.......give the kid a reason why your "ignorant critique" should mean anything to him, or anybody for that matter!

Story is heavily related:

A long, long time ago, I was part of a community that wrote fiction, with a boatload of writers that could easily improve but often reacted badly when any sort of negative critique was given. I was part of the community as a member that rarely communicated with the rest of the members, if at all, and I gave brutally robotic and honest, critical opinions on every article I thought needed it. People became furious with me, but I was doing nothing wrong. Every point I made had truth behind it, with research and experience in writing backing it up. Does that mean I had no right to be telling these people what to do to improve? No, it just means they couldn't handle brutal honesty.

Telling someone their opinion doesn't matter just because they were strongly honest is worse than flaming someone's playing. I've experienced the latter before, and what Fox did is not that. What's even worse is trying to demoralize and attack the person whom you believed was being unfair in their critique: "You don't know what you're talking about, you suck anyway!"

Being a white knight isn't righteous, it's annoying.

[funkster5TP]

I actually would have found Fox22003's response quite demoralising had I just taken the time to write a solo and enter it in an online competition. I think we all come to this forum to meet like minds and receive constructive criticism from a community of musicians. I don’t think his comments are very community spirited.

I was always under the impression that highlighting the positive and then pointing out where something can be improved is what constitutes constructive criticism. From what I can see Fox22003 has not just tilted the balance away from the former but ignored it all together.

That being the case I thought I’d offer my “constructive” criticism. Cleith, I think you have some interesting ideas here. The incorporation of the cowbell adds a nice touch and your timing is actually ok. I particularly like the cymbal flurry and fill between 0:16-0:21.

I would say that you could benefit from playing it maybe just a few bpm slower. There is the odd rim click in there but playing it at a lower tempo would soon iron out any problems. Then you can speed up again gradually. Also the intricate hi hat patterns starting at 0:23 are a nice touch but could be tightened up with a little work on the old double stroke rolls. It might be worth looking at ways of linking the solo sections with a little more fluidity. Just a suggestion.

The solo definitely has potential and with a bit of practice the only way is up. To say “there is not ONE, SINGLE interesting element here” is not only untrue but unhelpful.

Fox22003.......”I really wish i had someone to point out exactly what’s wrong with my playing when I was starting out”. Well I’ve been a pro drummer and educator for some years now so if that’s still the case, here goes. I like to practice what I preach so i’ll keep it constructive.

You do have good time. You stated that you played along to a metronome and certainly from what I can hear you’ve stuck quite accurately to it. You are clearly good at transcribing and obviously have a good music theory knowledge. I also like your splash work. The flurries throughout were nice.

However, your concentration on the click track and the intricacy of what you are playing is having a negative impact on your feel and groove. Your fills are noticeably lagging. That’s not to say they are not playing in time with the click. I’m sure you are. But you are by no means “in the pocket”.

You also stated that Cleith was lacking in all essential skills for being a drummer. He actually has much better posture than you which means his wrist technique was quite smooth and fluid. You are too high up on your stool, the angle of your legs isn’t what it should be and this means that the majority of your sticking is originating from your elbow. Your wrists are stiff and this is resulting in a grip of the stick which is visibly too tight. Your grip should also be slightly further up the stick. If you lower your stool so that you thighs are at a 90* angle to your torso you’ll find that things feel a lot more natural.

I hope that you receive criticism as freely as you impart it and have found it helpful. I would offer you one piece of advice though. Which i’m sure any experienced drummer on here will tell you. There is always more out there to learn and there are always things that need improving. From the very beginner to the likes of Vinnie Colaiuta and Dave Weckl. You said that nothing Cleith played was 100%. Well I’d say any musician worth their salt would be happy to admit the same and that’s nothing to be ashamed of.

Cheers, funkster5tp

[timebandit]

Originally Posted by Coldhardsteel

Story is heavily related:

A long, long time ago, I was part of a community that wrote fiction, with a boatload of writers that could easily improve but often reacted badly when any sort of negative critique was given. I was part of the community as a member that rarely communicated with the rest of the members, if at all, and I gave brutally robotic and honest, critical opinions on every article I thought needed it. People became furious with me, but I was doing nothing wrong. Every point I made had truth behind it, with research and experience in writing backing it up. Does that mean I had no right to be telling these people what to do to improve? No, it just means they couldn't handle brutal honesty.

Telling someone their opinion doesn't matter just because they were strongly honest is worse than flaming someone's playing. I've experienced the latter before, and what Fox did is not that. What's even worse is trying to demoralize and attack the person whom you believed was being unfair in their critique: "You don't know what you're talking about, you suck anyway!"

Being a white knight isn't righteous, it's annoying.

yes I agree, honesty is the best policy. In the long of it.....Clieth will take that critisism (from whatever dish it was served to him) and build from it. The short of it is....... honest critique when given with a balance of critisism and instruction helps keeps a person motivated to try harder. What Fox said sounded more to me like just blantain ignorant critisism. Really you should read the whole thread before you comment. Nowhere did I say "you suck" as a matter of fact somewhere I complemented Fox. He plays just fine, not overly impressive, but just fine. I was only giving him a taste of his own medicine (that was pretty obvious). He could use some manners thats all. I was'nt saying anything other than that. Yes he was right about Clieths playing, Yes he sounded blataintly ignorant in his critique.

[timebandit]

Nicely said, Funkster!

Fox, the playing in your video is terrible. You want some specific points? You are extremely stiff and rigid. There is no groove, soul, or feel. Your hand technique is a disgrace. Mostly all arm, very little wrist and absolutely zero finger control or finesse. You are clubbing away at your drums and it shows in your sound, which is an assault upon the ears. Your double strokes are complete shit throughout the entire video, i.e. measure 3 of your stupid transcription. It sounds like a big muddled mess because you don't have the hand technique or power to make any doubles sound good. I could write a whole page on the badness contained in your video but I will refrain because I, unlike you, have a sense of tact and social convention. This is why you didn't get feedback on your video; because it was terrible but people were kind enough not rub your face in this obvious fact. You on the other hand, couldn't wait to insult someone else's playing just to inflate your already considerable ego.

You have a very unjustified, arrogant opinion of your own playing, insulting others and saying they "can't even understand" what you have written and attempted to play (very poorly). You aren't playing anything tricky or amazing. Take a knock off your ego, slow down and learn your basic strokes before you come on here with a big head. Not only did you offer a sharp, mean-spirited "critique" about the original video, but then you moved into talking about what you consider your own apparently amazing playing and insulting other posters for no reason. At least go learn to play a double stroke before attempting your brand of snarky, unhelpful, "there's nothing positive I can say about this at all" criticism.

[Coldhardsteel]

Originally Posted by timebandit

yes I agree, honesty is the best policy. In the long of it.....Clieth will take that critisism (from whatever dish it was served to him) and build from it. The short of it is....... honest critique when given with a balance of critisism and instruction helps keeps a person motivated to try harder. What Fox said sounded more to me like just blantain ignorant critisism. Really you should read the whole thread before you comment. Nowhere did I say "you suck" as a matter of fact somewhere I complemented Fox. He plays just fine, not overly impressive, but just fine. I was only giving him a taste of his own medicine (that was pretty obvious). He could use some manners thats all. I was'nt saying anything other than that. Yes he was right about Clieths playing, Yes he sounded blataintly ignorant in his critique.

Really you should read the whole thread before you comment.

Implying I didn't read the whole thread. Of course, I did. Otherwise, forming an opinion would have been stupid.

Nowhere did I say "you suck"

I used quotation marks, but you're also assuming I was directly quoting you. More of a summary of what you said.

I was only giving him a taste of his own medicine

People only deserve to "have a taste of their own medicine" under very rare circumstances. Outright revenge and retaliation is immature. If you had to resort to fighting fire with fire, then that says something, but I don't know quite what.

My point was that in my opinion, Fox's manners didn't matter. Manners are just an artificial catalyst to be used to convey certain intentions. This may be a 'civilized' internet forum, but it's still the internet. We don't know anyone, and if Fox's attitude were truly malicious, then he would have said things differently for sure. Also, it's not your responsibility to correct him for critiquing Cleith in a certain way. If that's how Fox puts things and he thinks it's more effective, then don't attack him. Finally, it doesn't matter what skill level someone has demonstrated, if they're right, then they're right.

If Cleith took what Fox said as some sort of personal vendetta, then that's Fox and Cleith's problem.

[Fox622003]

Originally Posted by JediJesseS

Fox, the playing in your video is terrible...

Originally Posted by funkster5TP

I actually would have found Fox22003's response quite demoralising had I just taken the time to...Cheers, funkster5tp

Yes! Thank you both. That's exactly what I wanted to hear, some precise critique, it was perfect and very spot on as for funkster. JediJesse, you also agreed on some stuff with funkster, so you guys must be right. However, I disagree on the double strokes, I can play reasonably powerful doubles, I just don't think the sound quality is enough to portray it, and the feel of the things I used them in were a mix of multiple bounce and double stroke, it wasn't completely defined.
However, I do think it's true that many people can't understand the different groups and displacements I used there (and I was only arrogant towards the guy because he called me an ignorant and said I sucked with no reason at all). Not because they are horrible players, it's just not their thing, and might even believe it's a mistake upon hearing it.
The parts were a bit tricky, and I tried to put too much in little time, so the groove definitely suffered, in the future, once I get my recording set up, I plan to upload some songs from my band, so I hope I can get feedback then, too.
I'm glad this thread didn't continue the way it was, though, so I decided to post again.
And also, the stuff you noticed in my video can only be noted by quite experienced musicians as you strike me to be. But any passer by can notice the OP misses a drum or hits the rims, or sticks, and that's my main message, the way I see it, you can fail at stuff like groove and technique, but why leave misshits and stuff that doesn't go the way it's supposed to go on a studio recording? I am sure cleith must have been aware of these things. I wasn't aware of the stuff you mentioned, and actually, I lowered my drum throne before finishing the post.

And yes, Coldhardsteel, I have to say I think the one being insistent and a little personal here is timebandit, I give the same type of criticism on every other video.

And just re-read Funkster's comment, and it crearly shows that he knows what he's saying, and I wish I could take a lesson with him to work on the things he mentioned to be honest. In fact, I think he was being too nice, as I am sure he could had expanded on the "no groove" part a lot more, and the things he liked weren't all that good in my opinion.

As for JediJesse, some of the stuff he said was definitely right, but the comment did feel a bit angry there, which takes away some credibility and objectivity.

I would also like to mention that Coldhardsteel is right. There are no requirements to giving out an opinion. It's up to cleith, according to what he saw in my playing, or what he thinks of what I had to say, to judge how valid my opinion is. Timebandit, you can't go around telling people their opinion is not valid, even if they are the worst player in the world. But anyway, I think this thread has mutated into something totally different to what it originally was, and while I appreciate finally getting some feedback, I'm not sure how happy cleith is about all this!

Fox.

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

Originally Posted by Pollyanna

the guy who says what he thinks without pulling punches.

I think that kind of straight talk is valuable and, together with the more encouraging comments, helps to provide overall balance.

ANYONE can be a critic Pol.....evidently even Kyle Sandilands :-). Easiest job in the world. But coating for the sake of coating and offering nothing constructive, hinders more than it helps. The idea is to point out flaws and faults and offer advice as to how to rectify any issue. I saw none of that initially. I know the Op asked for opinions, but we all know what they say about those. Offer them by all means, but offer something constructive as well. He didn't ask "Who can do the best job of putting me down?"

I see taunting, not teaching.

Originally Posted by funkster5TP

I actually would have found Fox22003's response quite demoralising had I just taken the time to write a solo and enter it in an online competition. I think we all come to this forum to meet like minds and receive constructive criticism from a community of musicians. I don’t think his comments are very community spirited.

I was always under the impression that highlighting the positive and then pointing out where something can be improved is what constitutes constructive criticism. From what I can see Fox22003 has not just tilted the balance away from the former but ignored it all together.

That being the case I thought I’d offer my “constructive” criticism. Cleith, I think you have some interesting ideas here. The incorporation of the cowbell adds a nice touch and your timing is actually ok. I particularly like the cymbal flurry and fill between 0:16-0:21.

I would say that you could benefit from playing it maybe just a few bpm slower. There is the odd rim click in there but playing it at a lower tempo would soon iron out any problems. Then you can speed up again gradually. Also the intricate hi hat patterns starting at 0:23 are a nice touch but could be tightened up with a little work on the old double stroke rolls. It might be worth looking at ways of linking the solo sections with a little more fluidity. Just a suggestion.

The solo definitely has potential and with a bit of practice the only way is up. To say “there is not ONE, SINGLE interesting element here” is not only untrue but unhelpful.

Fox22003.......”I really wish i had someone to point out exactly what’s wrong with my playing when I was starting out”. Well I’ve been a pro drummer and educator for some years now so if that’s still the case, here goes. I like to practice what I preach so i’ll keep it constructive.

You do have good time. You stated that you played along to a metronome and certainly from what I can hear you’ve stuck quite accurately to it. You are clearly good at transcribing and obviously have a good music theory knowledge. I also like your splash work. The flurries throughout were nice.

However, your concentration on the click track and the intricacy of what you are playing is having a negative impact on your feel and groove. Your fills are noticeably lagging. That’s not to say they are not playing in time with the click. I’m sure you are. But you are by no means “in the pocket”.

You also stated that Cleith was lacking in all essential skills for being a drummer. He actually has much better posture than you which means his wrist technique was quite smooth and fluid. You are too high up on your stool, the angle of your legs isn’t what it should be and this means that the majority of your sticking is originating from your elbow. Your wrists are stiff and this is resulting in a grip of the stick which is visibly too tight. Your grip should also be slightly further up the stick. If you lower your stool so that you thighs are at a 90* angle to your torso you’ll find that things feel a lot more natural.

I hope that you receive criticism as freely as you impart it and have found it helpful. I would offer you one piece of advice though. Which i’m sure any experienced drummer on here will tell you. There is always more out there to learn and there are always things that need improving. From the very beginner to the likes of Vinnie Colaiuta and Dave Weckl. You said that nothing Cleith played was 100%. Well I’d say any musician worth their salt would be happy to admit the same and that’s nothing to be ashamed of.

Cheers, funkster5tp

Splendid post. Absolutely brilliant!!

THAT'S how to critique. The OP is left under no disillusion as to what the problem areas are and then given sound advice as to how to go about fixing them. That's TEACHING as opposed to shit-canning.....big difference.

Originally Posted by Coldhardsteel

[i]My point was that in my opinion, Fox's manners didn't matter. Manners are just an artificial catalyst to be used to convey certain intentions. .

Manners ALWAYS matter my friend. Take the two approaches presented here for example. One is blatantly honest, but highly discouraging. The other is blatantly honest, but exceptionally productive. Both posts highlight the shortcomings, but only one shows "the road home" and offers hope. Which would you respond better to? For me personally, the answer is obvious....no doubt about it. :-)

[mellow]

Manners ALWAYS matter my friend. Take the two approaches presented here for example. One is blatantly honest, but highly discouraging. The other is blatantly honest, but exceptionally productive. Both posts highlight the shortcomings, but only one shows "the road home" and offers hope. Which would you respond better to? For me personally, the answer is obvious....no doubt about it. :-)

Thank you! One of the number one things I read from pro musicians is to always stay humble and have a good attitude.You can be a very good technical drummer, but if your personality sucks, nobody will want to play with you.

[beefythedrummer]

How about this? What if you posted a vid and wanted a critique only to come back to a thread with replies mainly dealing with someone else? I think all this is unfair to Cleith. Our view of another members critiques is irrelevant. Cleith is, after all, the one who chooses to credit each person's opinion good or bad, honest or sugar-coated.

I mean that's why we have PM's on this board. So if you have a problem maybe you can tell it to them straight and not hijack some other guy's thread.

[timebandit]

Originally Posted by Fox622003

Yes! Thank you both. That's exactly what I wanted to hear, some precise critique, it was perfect and very spot on as for funkster. JediJesse, you also agreed on some stuff with funkster, so you guys must be right. However, I disagree on the double strokes, I can play reasonably powerful doubles, I just don't think the sound quality is enough to portray it, and the feel of the things I used them in were a mix of multiple bounce and double stroke, it wasn't completely defined.
However, I do think it's true that many people can't understand the different groups and displacements I used there (and I was only arrogant towards the guy because he called me an ignorant and said I sucked with no reason at all). Not because they are horrible players, it's just not their thing, and might even believe it's a mistake upon hearing it.
The parts were a bit tricky, and I tried to put too much in little time, so the groove definitely suffered, in the future, once I get my recording set up, I plan to upload some songs from my band, so I hope I can get feedback then, too.
I'm glad this thread didn't continue the way it was, though, so I decided to post again.
And also, the stuff you noticed in my video can only be noted by quite experienced musicians as you strike me to be. But any passer by can notice the OP misses a drum or hits the rims, or sticks, and that's my main message, the way I see it, you can fail at stuff like groove and technique, but why leave misshits and stuff that doesn't go the way it's supposed to go on a studio recording? I am sure cleith must have been aware of these things. I wasn't aware of the stuff you mentioned, and actually, I lowered my drum throne before finishing the post.

And yes, Coldhardsteel, I have to say I think the one being insistent and a little personal here is timebandit, I give the same type of criticism on every other video.

And just re-read Funkster's comment, and it crearly shows that he knows what he's saying, and I wish I could take a lesson with him to work on the things he mentioned to be honest. In fact, I think he was being too nice, as I am sure he could had expanded on the "no groove" part a lot more, and the things he liked weren't all that good in my opinion.

As for JediJesse, some of the stuff he said was definitely right, but the comment did feel a bit angry there, which takes away some credibility and objectivity.

I would also like to mention that Coldhardsteel is right. There are no requirements to giving out an opinion. It's up to cleith, according to what he saw in my playing, or what he thinks of what I had to say, to judge how valid my opinion is. Timebandit, you can't go around telling people their opinion is not valid, even if they are the worst player in the world. But anyway, I think this thread has mutated into something totally different to what it originally was, and while I appreciate finally getting some feedback, I'm not sure how happy cleith is about all this!

Fox.

Ah-Ha! you said it yourself.......the anger in his critique, took away the credibility and objectivity! Thank you for finely understanding. Oh, and again, I think your playing is actually pretty good, posture issues maybe, but pretty good.

[cleith]

glad we all kissed and made up... but totally wayyyy off topic hahahahah

I'm glad that me posting in your style made you understand why many took fault with your original post.

Compare mine and funkster's comments and you'll notice they communicate many of the same issues; but one is a whole lot more pleasant and motivational to read.Your original comments were much more like my post than funkster's, and its just not as productive to be that harsh with your words.