Beyond the Metronome

[Pollyanna]

Metronomes are the main tool for improving our timing.

I'm thinking about timing rather than tempo. Getting the notes right - not very close, but bang on - almost all the time.

Is there anything you do apart from metronome work to improve your timing so that your playing is inspiring rather than merely correct?

[Ferret]

I'm not sure what you're getting at... would you care to elaborate? I was always inspired by the players who were rather loose with their left foot timekeeping but absolutely rock solid with the backbeat and tempo... has a really cool polyrhythm effect if done right.

is that what you mean? if by timing between the clicks you mean perfect subdivision....

I found that playing with a subdividing metronome really helps with my bands stuff. I thought I had great timing because I was always right on with the quarter and eighth note pulses until I turned on the 16th note subs... I'm a metal player though we kinda get OCD over that stuff.


The playing that really inspires me is not the robotic perfection of near quantized drumming, but the artfully arranged drumming where the timing is implied by how solid the player is, but not defined outright by how rigidly their parts are played.

[Pollyanna]

Ferret, I reckon I have room to tighten up my playing and still have an organic, non-robotic feel.

I'm talking about pro-level timing and consistency.

[keep it simple]

Practice each passage at half speed or much less if you can. Reach a tempo where you're able to "feel" each individual element yet the groove is still discernible. This allows you to play around with the timing of each element to give a different flavour to the groove. Essentially, you're messing with the micro timing to the point of total familiarity. Do the same for fills then combinations of fills & grooves. This is my way (when I can get my lazy arse to practice), but it won't suit everyone.

[aydee]

..

Tis' a love hate thing, me and my metronome, Pol. I totally agree that metronomically correct playing is more often than not, too sterile/quantized, and the tastiness lies in the random swing quotient between the notes.

I 'll bet my Yammies that most of the trippiest grooves ever recorded would'nt hold up against a metronome for more than 16 bars

The time I need a metronome the most is to reaffirm that I am indeed playing what i thought I was playing. Holding it up against a metronome is reassuring or frightening depending on where you stand on the day. Its the ugly truth, but at least you know where it is.

Other than that, I think you are talking micro timing and play alongs are great for that IMO, because you play with the music and if your'e off track, it'll catch you with your pants down as you hit the chorus.

You dont need to worry Pol, I remember your 'Little Wing'.

...

[Thaard]

I practice slowly to a metronome while counting loudly. I've found it helps my timing a lot.

[Pollyanna]

Thanks guys, good thoughts.

Yes Andy, I can think of a couple of parts of our songs - transitions and fills - where it would be smart for me to go over them slowly, rather than just doing exercises ... or my latest craze, which is playing quarter singles and eighth doubles at 40bpm, focusing on getting timing, dynamics and sound perfect (never happens for more than about two notes in a row, of course). It's a nice chillout but some more targeted stuff makes sense.

Thaard, I'll give counting a go. However, I find that grunting or singing subdivisions puts me off for some reason, even though it's recommended. Possibly because it sounds dire to my ear :)

Abe ... playalongs. Be better if I could play kit at home instead of pads but a good idea. I sometimes play along with recorded music but it's hard to shut out the other player and ride his beat to (pretend) glory.

Consistency is the other issue - phasing out and finding the timing has gone sloppy while the brain takes a half-second holiday. Everyone phases out but when I do my microtiming suffers. Ideally the rhythm should be in you enough for your body to do it right. Any thoughts on improving one's intrinsic sense of time?

[aydee]

Originally Posted by Pollyanna

Any thoughts on improving one's intrinsic sense of time?

I struggle with this every day and I think there really isn't an alternative to tons & tons of sheer playing. Stick control gets smoother, the confidence is up, bady posture is more relaxed, the ears are sharper and all of this adds up and equa better micro timing. Imo.


...

[drumtechdad]

Once you can play with a metronome clicking on all the beats, the thing to do is have the metronome click only on "one" of each bar. Or "two" or whatever. You can even have it clicking on the "and" of one or whatever. I find this much more useful--and liable to get your time happening--than playing to a metronome subdividing everything. It's the subdividing in your head that keeps your time together.

When you do this it's also useful to pretend that the click is just another player and your job is to stay right with him.

In this day and age there's a whole lot of our playing that happens to a click; many bands use a click live, too. It takes most of us (me especially!) a good deal of time to be able to keep a loose feel while maintaining good time.

Play with the metronome, not to it.

[JPW]

Originally Posted by drumtechdad

Once you can play with a metronome clicking on all the beats, the thing to do is have the metronome click only on "one" of each bar. Or "two" or whatever. You can even have it clicking on the "and" of one or whatever. I find this much more useful--and liable to get your time happening--than playing to a metronome subdividing everything. It's the subdividing in your head that keeps your time together.

When you do this it's also useful to pretend that the click is just another player and your job is to stay right with him.

In this day and age there's a whole lot of our playing that happens to a click; many bands use a click live, too. It takes most of us (me especially!) a good deal of time to be able to keep a loose feel while maintaining good time.

Play with the metronome, not to it.

Yeah, I love to hear the click on the last note of the eight note triplet. =P It's instant groove for me.

[denisri]

Very slow practice(ie 53 BPM) also mirrors around the set. This helps you review and inspect your motion for removal for tension and wasted motion. Denis

[Boomka]

A) Play with music - especially that recorded to a click - and try to cop the feel of great groove drummers. Don't tune them out, imitate them, try to get inside their groove and hear it the way they heard/hear it. For example, I was showing a student how to play Respect the other day, and it's incredible how much Mr. Purdie got out of a fairly straight-forward drum part. Imitate and emulate.

B) Play to drum machine or sequenced percussion loops rather than a metronome alone so you can hear how the part you're playing meshes with other rhythmic parts.

C) Play with good play-alongs that don't have a click running all the time - i.e. Groove Essentials - so that you need to listen and find the right pocket for the tune.

D) Record yourself. If you can, record yourself doing the above and listen to the results and make adjustments.

E) Sing the groove you're playing in your head so that you're conceiving of it in a musical, lyrical way. Try to play the groove the way you'd sing it. Listen. Try to get into a grooving emotional state when you practice. For instance, a funky groove will suggest a certain emotional state; that feeling you get when a track makes you want to dance. Try to practice getting into that headspace when you're playing those grooves. If you're not convinced by your groove, no one else will be.

F) Play with musicians who have great time - or at least better time than you - and learn to trust them and let your groove be in response to what they're doing.

There are technical things to explore as well, though I think a lot of it is between the ears. Physical/mechanical consistency will help achieve more consistent timing and sound -- the latter being an overlooked part of having a good feel, IMO. Tension/anxiety of mind and body can destroy a groove in a big hurry. The "headroom" concept is applicable here: if you don't have the chops to play the groove comfortably, it isn't going to sit right. Counting subdivisions until they're so programmed into your brain that they turn on by themselves when you play certain grooves can also be really helpful. I hear a tambourine playing 16ths like you might hear on old Motown records in my head when I'm practicing a lot of funk and RnB grooves.

[Big Foot]

I'm doing a lot of slow practice w/ the metronome lately and I do find it's helping time.
1 click per bar w/ a fill every couple of bars is killer.

As good as locking into a click is; knowing how to lock into the other members of the band is maybe more important, even if the time varies. I discuss this w/ our bass player - communication is key.

[larryace]

Boomkas post was golden as usual. Id' like to expand on what he touched on about any issue being between the ears...
Try looking at it like this Pol...
You already know how to hit the drum.
You can already play in time, you're aware of how much time feel affects music.
You can play in perfect time already, but maybe you don't sometimes.
It's not a physical issue, it's definitely a mental thing, specifically listening/feeling.
A lapse in groove/feel/time is a mental lapse. It's as simple as that.
If you weren't so ADD we wouldn't have this thread ha ha
But really that's it.
And just because I spout this stuff off doesn't mean I'm on it all the time either, I'm definitely not. I have plenty of recordings proving that. But I do know it's not a physical limitation, so what's left?
Mental focus/listening, right? But IMO most importantly...feeling the groove (and not letting the mind wander...ever...yea right...)
You have to feel the tune, be in the moment, from start to finish without wandering. That's what I'm trying to say.
There's where any issue lies IMO. You can blame it on your ADD ha ha

[Pollyanna]

lol yes, there's a big mental component, Larry. Well spotted :) I still think that even when I phase out I should still be ticking along in the groove - maybe better still?

Originally Posted by Boomka

A) Play with music - especially that recorded to a click - and try to cop the feel of great groove drummers. Don't tune them out, imitate them, try to get inside their groove and hear it the way they heard/hear it. For example, I was showing a student how to play Respect the other day, and it's incredible how much Mr. Purdie got out of a fairly straight-forward drum part. Imitate and emulate.

B) Play to drum machine or sequenced percussion loops rather than a metronome alone so you can hear how the part you're playing meshes with other rhythmic parts.

C) Play with good play-alongs that don't have a click running all the time - i.e. Groove Essentials - so that you need to listen and find the right pocket for the tune.

D) Record yourself. If you can, record yourself doing the above and listen to the results and make adjustments.

E) Sing the groove you're playing in your head so that you're conceiving of it in a musical, lyrical way. Try to play the groove the way you'd sing it. Listen. Try to get into a grooving emotional state when you practice. For instance, a funky groove will suggest a certain emotional state; that feeling you get when a track makes you want to dance. Try to practice getting into that headspace when you're playing those grooves. If you're not convinced by your groove, no one else will be.

F) Play with musicians who have great time - or at least better time than you - and learn to trust them and let your groove be in response to what they're doing.

A) I should do this more. Last year on a whim I was playing to Let's Stick Together and trying to channel Paul Thompson. I went to rehearsal later and channelled Paul Thompson, which was cool even if too robust for the band lol. It's a good idea. Should do it more - Jim Hodder will be my first port of call

B) Good idea. I have Reason, so it's all there. I've been thinking how good it would be for my metronome to have nice cowbell and hat sounds and it's been there all along. I'm an idiot. Thank you.

C) Playalongs again. Downloadings some Drummerworld "Drum Clinic" playalongs now.

D) I've avoided this, apart from band practices. It's partly cowardice and partly because I know what's happening. When on the pad I know it right away when I mess up. Hence the 40bpm quarter notes.

E) Listening ... that's what I want to do ALL the time but I keep phasing in and out, sometimes less, sometimes more. At times seizing the moment is like chasing a cake of soap around the bathtub. Hence the 40bpm quarter notes - 15 min sessions - like a more interesting meditation than mantra. Not miles from Kenny Wheeler's Step 1.

Remember the tale in the book of how Kenny W started with a new teacher who told him just to play insanely simply for a week? Then Kenny was asked to play at a function and apologised beforehand for likely rustiness since he figured he'd be out of practice, yet he fell right into the zone. I'm looking for that effect.

F) My band members, apart from vocalist, are no better with timing but they're good friends and I'm at a stage in my life where I want to play music without the pain of egotists, unreliables, grumps, degenerates, adrenaline junkies and serious young insects. Oh well, five out of six ain't bad :)

I've only recently been focusing more on touch and tone production, although it's always been something I've instinctively done (not always successfully). The slow work is good there too. Timing and feel, soft hands, timing and sound @ 40bpm.


Larry (sorry, hopping back and forth here) while the ADD thing has been a bugbear for me when it comes to consistency. I think this issue is The Biggie. Not just for me but all of us. It's about not just getting in the pocket but staying there with consistency, always keeping it flowing and happening, telling the story. Ornamentation is a bonus, but without the flow, it don't mean a thing ...

I've attached a song from last night. We don't really have an arrangement at this stage and pretty well just jam it out. Close but no cigar. Little timing errors in a number of the transitions. Really want to tweeze them out.

[spleen]

Originally Posted by Pollyanna

Is there anything you do apart from metronome work to improve your timing so that your playing is inspiring rather than merely correct?

Originally Posted by Pollyanna

Any thoughts on improving one's intrinsic sense of time?

Nice thread Polly! I'm always interested in learning about the ways people perceive, construct, and play time and groove.

I've recently become particularly interested in the neurobiological components and processes involved in being able to sense and execute "good time" as well as the effects of the social/musical contexts in which a person is playing. There's been some interesting fMRI studies done around improvisation (e.g., http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18301756) and response to music, but nothing yet (that I am aware of) specifically focused on time and tempo. I have a sense of some of the brain regions involved, but until we stick Steve Gadd in an MRI and figure out a way for him to play his kit while lying on his back, I'm not for sure.

(Okay, sorry to "geek out" on you.)

Lots of good ideas posited already, many of which have been and continue to be extremely valuable for me in working toward the sort of inspiring, enticing, irresistably hypnotic groove I continually long for.

Can't remember if this was mentioned, but I also get a lot from turning on a click and modulating the time to various subdivisions within that tempo (i.e., move the pulse from quarter notes to quarter note triplets, eighth notes, eighth note triplets, then back, etc.).

Also, I practice Vipassana Meditation and I've found this to have profoundly positive effects on all aspects of my playing, including time/groove/tempo. There's a real benefit to being able to disengage from (yet remain keenly observant of) the mind and all of its activity.

Oh, and Kenny Werner's (Effortless Mastery) stuff has been helpful as well.

best wishes to you,

spleen

[moqtev]

Dancing!! I hate to say it but when I was at the musicconservatory we had dance lessons every week - mostly cuban and brazilian stuff.. we didn't like it that much back then, but it works!! Gives you a good sense of rhythm, timing and subdivisions in different music styles :-)

[Pollyanna]

Originally Posted by moqtev

Dancing!! I hate to say it but when I was at the musicconservatory we had dance lessons every week - mostly cuban and brazilian stuff.. we didn't like it that much back then, but it works!! Gives you a good sense of rhythm, timing and subdivisions in different music styles :-)

Uh yeah, mogtey. I know you're right but I'm not sure I could cope with the humiliation :)

Someone on the forum suggested walking in time with songs on an MP3. So I went rhythm walking with my iPod and greatly enjoyed it ... except my knees hurt for two weeks afterwards.


Spleen, that link is interesting, if heady:

To investigate the neural substrates that underlie spontaneous musical performance, we examined improvisation in professional jazz pianists using functional MRI.

By employing two paradigms that differed widely in musical complexity, we found that improvisation (compared to production of over-learned musical sequences) was consistently characterized by a dissociated pattern of activity in the prefrontal cortex: extensive deactivation of dorsolateral prefrontal and lateral orbital regions with focal activation of the medial prefrontal (frontal polar) cortex.

Such a pattern may reflect a combination of psychological processes required for spontaneous improvisation, in which internally motivated, stimulus-independent behaviors unfold in the absence of central processes that typically mediate self-monitoring and conscious volitional control of ongoing performance.

Changes in prefrontal activity during improvisation were accompanied by widespread activation of neocortical sensorimotor areas (that mediate the organization and execution of musical performance) as well as deactivation of limbic structures (that regulate motivation and emotional tone).

This distributed neural pattern may provide a cognitive context that enables the emergence of spontaneous creative activity.

I think this is getting to the heart of it - the kind of headspace you want to be in when playing. I'm getting the impression that there is some kind of "letting go" process happening (and intuitively, it makes sense based on days when I'm "on"). If you have the time a bit of a translation of the above would be appreciated. If not, I'll spend some quality time ti Google :)

[DrumEatDrum]

I agree with don't just play to a metronome, play to a sequencer or loops.

And counting out load does help.

For me, it's weird, because I grew up on The Who, and classic rock radio, where a lot of the music is not perfect. So my natural time wants to be like Keith Moon (even thought I don't play like Moon). But at the same time, I've played in so many bands where I had to play to loops, sequencers and clicks, that I can fall into that realm pretty easily now.

But I never play to a straight click. I always program a shaker or something to play the sub-divisions (16th or triplets).

[Pollyanna]

Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum

I agree with don't just play to a metronome, play to a sequencer or loops.

And counting out load does help.

For me, it's weird, because I grew up on The Who, and classic rock radio, where a lot of the music is not perfect. So my natural time wants to be like Keith Moon (even thought I don't play like Moon). But at the same time, I've played in so many bands where I had to play to loops, sequencers and clicks, that I can fall into that realm pretty easily now.

But I never play to a straight click. I always program a shaker or something to play the sub-divisions (16th or triplets).

Ha - it was Mitch Mitchell for me. I don't want the machine to play the subdivisions, though. I'll be programming quarters and less. I want that massive open space between notes and to feel it suck my next stroke in on the button - if that makes any sense. It's probably walking before I can crawl, but it's what turns me on.

[Frost]

sometimes when I'm bored I look at the second hand on my watch and try tap a consistent one, two or three notes a second on the table, I'm not sure how much it helps but it might be worth giving a shot.

Playing with a click track has already been mentioned and it does work, you can get metronomes for iPods/iPhones etc. which will give you the different sounding bleep on the first note a bar, that is all you need, just sit down, set it to whatever tempo you'd like, put one of the headphones in your ear and go for it, it's a little more practical then a metronome and you can also use it live, I've known entire bands to play live with a click track and blue tooth headsets (so the cord doesn't get in the way)

[MikeM]

Originally Posted by drumtechdad

When you do this it's also useful to pretend that the click is just another player and your job is to stay right with him.

YES! I think it must have been an earlier post by you that got me to using a click at practice the the last week or so.

Originally Posted by drumtechdad

In this day and age there's a whole lot of our playing that happens to a click; many bands use a click live, too. It takes most of us (me especially!) a good deal of time to be able to keep a loose feel while maintaining good time.

Play with the metronome, not to it.

That's exactly it. I haven't spent much time working with metronomes in the past because none of the bands I've played in wanted to be that precise and feared that the feel would become sterile.

I'd played with clicks before, but not much and never with that attitude; for me it was always something to struggle against. Now, thinking of it as a guy standing in the corner keeping time on a clave or wood block has been extremely liberating, and all it was for me was a change in attitude towards it.

I've been playing to straight quarters at practice and have had to trouble staying with it, and I'm figuring out how to play loose with it - and on purpose. It's not that hard. I wish I'd had that mental breakthrough years ago!

Thanks drumtechdad!

[castodts]

Hi to all,

I'm a totally beginner (4 months playing), trying to figure out things only by studying myself, as I cant afford paying for lessons at the moment. What really concerns me right now is to play right regarding my timings, so my approach to whatever I'm trying to play is play it in a REALLY slow tempo until the timings seem to be perfect. Then, I move on to a little bit faster one. I think this way works till now, but...

First of all, let's clear out that I'm playing on an electronic kit (actually I have never even ...touched an acoustic). It's Roland's TD-4KX and the controller has a feature (time check) that allows me to see in real-time how fast/slow I am and also gives me an overall score. Based on that overall score I move on or not. The problem (if it is one) is that it checks timings only on metronome ticks, giving no feedback about the remaining 3 notes (if we assume 16th notes).

I can fully understand that it's a matter of feeling, that the feel of having good timing comes with experience and that's the way to go. But, it would be useful to me a similar feature which would allow me to check every note. I imagine that it could reveal weaknesses like "the timings are good, but this specific note is always a bit fast/slow" and help me work on that.

I know that if I 4x the speed of the metronome I have the solution to my problem, but still I don't like this approach, as I have to pay a lot of attention to the "timing figure" to find out failing patterns. There's also one more solution (that allows me not to pay attention only to the controller), by recording what I play and checking it after against the metronome using the same feature. Still, I think it's a waste of time having to record and listen very often (is it?).

What I came up with is building such an interface. And here I want your opinion/advice. Simply on if it worths it, if it gonna be really helpful. What I have in mind is an application (which reads my midi out) where you insert the groove/exercise you want to play and it automatically calculates the "timing failure" let's say, on an individual note basis. I need some feedback from experienced players/teachers on if it could form a useful learning tool.

One last question is a bit practical. What could be an acceptable jitter for a note played on time? +-4ms or +-40ms or ...? could someone help me on such kind of information source?

I'd really appreciate it if I heard your opinion on that. Replies like "practice boy and don't waste time on bullshit" are also more than welcome. Sorry about the long post. Keep up the good work on this great community.

Giorgos

[Pollyanna]

Hi Georgios

Since you don't have feedback on the other three notes, one way to get it would be to record what you're playing. Does it sound good? Does it feel good? Be brutally honest about it. If you think that a part doesn't sound quite right and might be rushing or might be dragging between the clicks, then chances are it is.

[Phil Maturano]

Hi Poly' and all friends here on this thread.

If i may suggest....

Working the Inner Clock


Used as part of the curriculum at drums schools around the world.
PIT - DC - Drummers institute... on and on

Learning about timing and developing a sense of time has little to do with playing with a metronome. A metronome's intention originally was to provide an exact pulse so that muscle memory could be developed at different tempos. It does not create a sense of time. Where was the metronome first used and invented?? In Europe. Apparently by dutch inventor Dietrich Nikolaus Winkel - Europe is not known for its brilliant rhythmic culture. But for other things. Even the masters of those days had reservations about metronome use.
Many notable composers, including Felix Mendelssohn, Richard Wagner, Giuseppe Verdi and Johannes Brahms, have criticised the use of the metronome.

For rhythm you have to turn to Africa.

For that you need to study the main vocabulary of time. Rhythm. The ABC's of rhythm are "rhythmic cycles"-
Who are the drummers with the most incredibly beautiful and complex sense of rhythm and time. African drummers. African musicians in general. I can assure you...Non of them care if you can play half notes at 25 bpm exactly on target. The point is to study rhythmic vocabulary.

Each culture has a standard of what they consider "Good time"

If you play almost all African descent music with Metronome timing...it will be horrible.
This farce of playing in absolute perfect metronome time was perpetuated on Western culture by the music industry. Any monkey can program a drum machine. Thus culling the members of the rhythmically "Aware" club (haha) was advantageous for business. With the advent of electronic music and drum machines....the beauty of rhythm and time has been almost pounded to nothing in the west.

The issue of time is one that you have to transcend with each culture you are a part of.
Every genre of music has its relationship with timing and phrasing.

There are a few main ways that human beings and especially musicians ...feel and understand time.

1- Intellectual time. - This is simply understanding how pulses in music are arranged and subdivided. Providing a frame work for you to understand music.

2- Throat time - Being able to count and be part of music as a participant. Understanding where basic phrases begin and end.

3 - Gut time - Being able to manage time, phrases and vocabulary within time line structures in music. Stacking and modulating phrases without getting lost in the time line.

4 - Organic time - Bending all musical rules of phrasing without EVER getting lost in the time line.

Hope that helps to start you into the long and beautiful journey that never ever ends....
Rhythm and time.

[Pollyanna]

Thanks Phil. I'm interested by your ideas.

Firstly, I loved the colour and feel of African drumming ever since a music teacher at high school played an Osibisa album for us. Secondly, I find the usual prescribed mainstream solutions to musical problems don't seem to resonate emotionally with me.

[Phil Maturano]

Emotion is also the key to developing good time!! So you are in the right direction with your feelings!

PM

[onedevilsst]

Originally Posted by Ferret

I'm not sure what you're getting at... would you care to elaborate? I was always inspired by the players who were rather loose with their left foot timekeeping but absolutely rock solid with the backbeat and tempo... has a really cool polyrhythm effect if done right.

is that what you mean? if by timing between the clicks you mean perfect subdivision....

I found that playing with a subdividing metronome really helps with my bands stuff. I thought I had great timing because I was always right on with the quarter and eighth note pulses until I turned on the 16th note subs... I'm a metal player though we kinda get OCD over that stuff.


The playing that really inspires me is not the robotic perfection of near quantized drumming, but the artfully arranged drumming where the timing is implied by how solid the player is, but not defined outright by how rigidly their parts are played.

I think I understand you, my favourite is stevie wonders' on innervisions, I like the way that all the consecutive hits on the ride are dirfferent, like a steel drum pattern around the cymbal and then repeated almost perfectly in the next round. It's a more musical way of playing that I wish I could master. And so 'untidy' in it's style. Just facinates me evertime.

Easily my top three drum albums.

[Pollyanna]

Originally Posted by Phil Maturano

Emotion is also the key to developing good time!! So you are in the right direction with your feelings!

PM

Thant's encouraging to know, Phil :)

I have my nerdy moments but the whole Pointdexter approach strikes me as learning to pretend that I'm a cool and groovy chick who has the rhythm within rather than actually being cool and groovy and letting it flow.

I thought moqtev's dancing suggestion made sense but ... you know ...

[Deltadrummer]

Originally Posted by Phil Maturano

Emotion is also the key to developing good time!! So you are in the right direction with your feelings!

PM

I was going to say something that I think is related to this. The old routine of practicing a beat like the money beat for 5, 10, 20 or the Mike Mangini 90 minutes without losing it is a good exercise. You have to keep digging into that emotion pot to keep the groove/feel of the beat. it's a lot of fun.

[larryace]

Originally Posted by Pollyanna

Little timing errors in a number of the transitions. Really want to tweeze them out.

Kinda hard on yourself there Pol. Nothing stuck out to me. Of course only you know how it felt playing it but your meter was steady freddy if you ask me. Your drum sound has noticeably improved, your snare is tuned up and your ride sounds great. Needed more kick volume I thought, but that could be my laptop speakers.

[larryace]

Originally Posted by Phil Maturano

Hi Poly' and all friends here on this thread.

If i may suggest....

Working the Inner Clock


Used as part of the curriculum at drums schools around the world.
PIT - DC - Drummers institute... on and on

Learning about timing and developing a sense of time has little to do with playing with a metronome. A metronome's intention originally was to provide an exact pulse so that muscle memory could be developed at different tempos. It does not create a sense of time. Where was the metronome first used and invented?? In Europe. Apparently by dutch inventor Dietrich Nikolaus Winkel - Europe is not known for its brilliant rhythmic culture. But for other things. Even the masters of those days had reservations about metronome use.
Many notable composers, including Felix Mendelssohn, Richard Wagner, Giuseppe Verdi and Johannes Brahms, have criticised the use of the metronome.

For rhythm you have to turn to Africa.

For that you need to study the main vocabulary of time. Rhythm. The ABC's of rhythm are "rhythmic cycles"-
Who are the drummers with the most incredibly beautiful and complex sense of rhythm and time. African drummers. African musicians in general. I can assure you...Non of them care if you can play half notes at 25 bpm exactly on target. The point is to study rhythmic vocabulary.

Each culture has a standard of what they consider "Good time"

If you play almost all African descent music with Metronome timing...it will be horrible.
This farce of playing in absolute perfect metronome time was perpetuated on Western culture by the music industry. Any monkey can program a drum machine. Thus culling the members of the rhythmically "Aware" club (haha) was advantageous for business. With the advent of electronic music and drum machines....the beauty of rhythm and time has been almost pounded to nothing in the west.

The issue of time is one that you have to transcend with each culture you are a part of.
Every genre of music has its relationship with timing and phrasing.

There are a few main ways that human beings and especially musicians ...feel and understand time.

1- Intellectual time. - This is simply understanding how pulses in music are arranged and subdivided. Providing a frame work for you to understand music.

2- Throat time - Being able to count and be part of music as a participant. Understanding where basic phrases begin and end.

3 - Gut time - Being able to manage time, phrases and vocabulary within time line structures in music. Stacking and modulating phrases without getting lost in the time line.

4 - Organic time - Bending all musical rules of phrasing without EVER getting lost in the time line.

Hope that helps to start you into the long and beautiful journey that never ever ends....
Rhythm and time.

Awesome post. Breath of fresh air. Perfection is bland. Human emotion has it's own rhythms and they're not metronomic.
Re: Playing African decended music with metronome timing sounding horrible, so true (rap excluded!)

Metronome practice is beneficial just to teach steadiness and even meter for sure. But the goal is to move beyond that, and have such a sense and command of the time that you can push and pull it to wring the appropriate human emotion from the piece you're playing.

Also honorable mention must go to tempo, as it is the other half of the Time/Feel Continuum. Good meter at a tempo that is too fast or too slow isn't nearly as effective as a song played at just the exact right speed.

Thanks Phil.

[BassDriver]

That's exactly it. I haven't spent much time working with metronomes in the past because none of the bands I've played in wanted to be that precise and feared that the feel would become sterile.

Danny Carey is probably one of the most solid drummers ever and his drumming is really organic, don't think that playing along to metronome makes you a drum machine, even when we follow a metronome we have our own nuances. A human drummer with the most humanly-possible timing will still sound organic (no quantizing), but if a drum machine has programmed error (yes, machines trying to be like people now) it still sounds inorganic.

Remember for the purposes of this discussion that accuracy and precision are different things...accuracy is playing right on the beat...precision is for example "staying in the pocket", playing behind the beat but staying in the same spot behind the beat.

[Pollyanna]

Originally Posted by larryace

Kinda hard on yourself there Pol. Nothing stuck out to me. Of course only you know how it felt playing it but your meter was steady freddy if you ask me. Your drum sound has noticeably improved, your snare is tuned up and your ride sounds great. Needed more kick volume I thought, but that could be my laptop speakers.

It depends how you listen. They're the kinds of errors that audiences generally don't notice but are the difference between an adequate performance and one that creates feelings. If you listened to that track as though it was you who was playing it I'm sure you'd be grimacing at all the same spots that I did - maybe a few more :)

We are always hardest on ourselves and that's cool because it tells us where we need to go. My next port of call is microtiming ... actually, it's been my next port of call for 30 years but spending time with you guys has made me more anal lol. Part of the prob is moving from one piece to the next because I can only play on a pad at home so I'm fairly clean if I stay put, but dicey when I move around. An e-kit is probably the answer but I'm wary of how that might mess with my a-kit feel (and the cost and the space it takes up at home).

You have a sharp ear. 1. Meter - yep, the 40bpm practice is improving my meter. The song stayed at 50bpm all the way.

2, I tightened up the snare after your comment last time I posted something (could do with a tad more too).

3. I'm keeping the kick drum volume well down. It's deliberate - we're a lounge band :)

4. You noticed my new cymbal :) ... a 20" Zildjian A medium. The ancient 17" Meinl C/R has been relegated to crash / 2nd ride and the Paiste 2002 crash has been put away (great cymbal but it's so bright that I found myself treading on eggshells when using it with this music).

I agree that Phil's post is a welcome soulful perspective in a musical environment where the emphasis so often tends to be a tad clinical IMO.

I'm confident about my instincts when I'm in the zone so simply being more correct is a fair enough aim for me at my level without any thoughts of transcending metronomic playing; I'll leave that for the big people :) Still, it's a concept worth keeping in mind to avoid wasting time with sterile blind alleys.

Ken, nice idea to drive a long ostinato with pure emotion. Reminds me of a funk guy here who recommended playing to Joss Stone music on a loop for two weeks to improve your timekeeping feel - all rhythm, no fills.

BD, I guess what I'm talking about is rightness - which may or may not be strictly correct. I'm kinda tired of playing shitty notes that are a bit "off". It's no big deal to me if a note I play isn't metronomically correct but it bugs me when my notes are lame and detract from the flow. It's not entirely about timing either - also being the right volume and the right timbre. I will never, ever be in danger of being too perfect ;) You can't entirely think this stuff - you have to be able to feel it.

[jazzin']

Originally Posted by Pollyanna

Metronomes are the main tool for improving our timing.

I'm thinking about timing rather than tempo. Getting the notes right - not very close, but bang on - almost all the time.

Is there anything you do apart from metronome work to improve your timing so that your playing is inspiring rather than merely correct?

I go for a slightly tact than most. I agree with starting things slow with the time, but then I think you should do that for everything you practice.

What I would suggest is to take things to a different level altogether. Instead of doing something like practicing single double and diddle eighth notes to a click at 50bpm or whatever, I would try to understand the subdivision and time in minute detail.

Practicing something like the table of time but moving from the first line to the second, back to the first, then to the third, back to the first, then to the fourth all the way up and then the same thing back down, then skip around randomly but always in between going back to the first line.

After this, I think you should also forget any open to closed stuff you do with your rudiments. Instead of going slow to fast randomly. Move through each subdivision. For slow you do it as quarter notes, then to quarter note triplets, then eighth, then triplets, 16ths, etc etc on and on until you can't go any faster or you cannot do a subdivision.

I think this approach to time is more important than just doing grooves slowly with a metronome. That's as important but there is more to things than that.

So, I would start out by doing your singles, doubles and diddles through the table of time as I like to call it (you know the thing from Master Studies? Use that as your guide to all of this. Superimpose rudiments over those notes etc), but moving from quarter notes to whatever, then back to quarter notes etc. Does that make any sense at all?

With grooves and stuff. You should do the same thing. Instead of just playing a straight groove, go through all the possible subdivisions you can with it, and then switch randomly between different subdivisions.

Try practicing complex grooves with polyrhythms integrated. Not for the groove itself because you would never use it probably but just for the practicing of time. Eg. Try something like a groove in 4/4 but made up entirely of triplets. Start with quarter notes on the right hand and quarter note triplets on the left foot (hats). Than add in eighth note triplets between left hand and bass drum. That's just an example. Try that out though. It's not nearly as hard as it sounds and could be a good starting point. Try a similar thing in 16ths.

If you like to play rudiments, incorporate time practice into them. If you are doing flam accents, move through all the possible subdivisions you can think of. Start out playing them as quarter notes, then move to eighth (or quarter note triplets) notes, then to triplets, then 16ths, quintuplets, 16th note triplets, septuplets, 32nds etc. Do the same with all rudiments you practice.

That's what time comes down to really. Understanding the subdivision. If you have a solid grasp on that, you can play great time. Your notes will be spaced evenly, you will move between any subdivision fluidly and freely and you will be locked into whatever you play perfectly because you have an understanding of the space between notes. The time between the notes you play is what makes you a good or bad drummer in terms of timekeeping and this practice makes you understand that time in detail.

[Nodiggie]

Originally Posted by aydee

..

Tis' a love hate thing, me and my metronome, Pol. I totally agree that metronomically correct playing is more often than not, too sterile/quantized, and the tastiness lies in the random swing quotient between the notes.

I 'll bet my Yammies that most of the trippiest grooves ever recorded would'nt hold up against a metronome for more than 16 bars...

I totally agree with Aydee on this. You go over songs week in and week out then get into the studio just to track all the "feel" out of the songs you worked so hard to put together. I don't like the robotic feel of using the metronome. Unfortunately it is manditory for the work I have done thus far simply for the ease of production.

Things I would do that have helped me is to record your rehearsals then check them with the metronome. If you know your music well enough I would bet you don't move more than 3 bpm in any direction. I would challenge ANY untrained ear to detect this fluctuation in any song. I like to think of practicing with the metronome as muscle memory for the mind. It's not untill my Rusian Dragon guitar player shows up that I realize theres timing issues. The good thing is they realize, understand and acknowlege it is their timing issue and don't throw stuff at me.

[mg33]

Great discussion ...

Playing is not about perfection, it is about creating emotion in the listener. Use the metronome as a reference and starting point ... and take it from there. When playing live, count it in and play the first verse and chorus with the click ... then let your emotions finish [and climax] the song.

Many years ago I had the opportunity to watch Larrie London play live in the studio ... he used a click [circa 1982] but when the red light came on ... the click was turned off and he played the emotion of the song.

The analytical mind can't figure out the emotional side ... and shouldn't try. Trust your emotion and play it with heart. Let the analyticals measure what happened after the fact. What they can measure won't be able to capture what happened.

[mg33]

One other thing ...

Use your eyes as well as your ears. Watch your sticks in motion. Visually, you can pick up things with your eyes just before your sticks hit ... that your ears miss. This will put your playing in another zone ... and beyond the metronome.

Have you every just watched ... the visual flow of a great drummer? It is magic! Turn off the sound and just watch their sticks.

[MikeM]

Originally Posted by mg33

Have you every just watched ... the visual flow of a great drummer? It is magic! Turn off the sound and just watch their sticks.

I'm totally with you on that. Will someone please hand Mr. Gadd a pair of non-black sticks?

[brittc89]

Listening to the people youre playing with. If everyones ears are wide open, everyone should be right in the pocket. Closed ears are no good.