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  #41  
Old 05-26-2010, 02:37 AM
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Default Re: Show Us Your Muffling

Sorry, cell phone pic.

I'm still using the stock batter head on my kick and tune it with the "just above a wrinkle" method. Recently at a gig the sound guy suggested I put a "pellow" in it. Well just to spite him I opted for a felt strip off my old bed sheet.

I prefer this because I don't have to mess with a "pellow" flopping around in my drum. It seems this was all the rage in the 70's but seems to have fallen out of style along with big ol' kicks and concert toms.
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  #42  
Old 05-26-2010, 04:19 PM
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Default Re: Show Us Your Muffling

I hate putting things inside the shells, as this alters the sound. I also hate putting things on the heads. I use Remo Powersonic for my kick batter and it has all the muffling you need right out of the box (none free-floating). For toms I use Remo Black Suede Emperors batter, Remo clear Ambassadors resonant, and they offer about the right sustain right out of the box. If I wanted shorter or longer I would change heads instead of adding muffling. To eliminate sympathetic resonance I just change tuning.
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  #43  
Old 05-26-2010, 07:59 PM
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Default Re: Show Us Your Muffling

Quote:
Originally Posted by unfunkyfooted View Post
YES ! YES ! YES ! we have a winner in the Bass Division. i must try this !!! i think this would do nicely. i can't believe i didn't think of this ! such a simple and effective idea. it seems yourself and KarlCrafton utilise the same technique.

was this a technique that you adapted or did you invent this on your own ?

thanks.
Hi !

I was just tired of opening my bass drum (18" non ported) to go
from empty boomy highly tuned for jazz to almost loose with an
Evans pillow inside for rock/blues... With a 18" bass drum, you don't
want to make a hole in the front head ;-) I found the idea on DW forum
by I cannot remember the O.P.

Phil.
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  #44  
Old 05-26-2010, 10:54 PM
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Default Re: Show Us Your Muffling

Depending on when you (phil qc) saw it, it might have been me.
I've been doing this for years (probably 10...or more...lost count). This idea can't be new though.
I kinda did a reverse Simon Phillips method (on the outside instead, and not taped to the head).

The cool thing about it (besides being free) is changing the amount of resonance just by reaching down.
I've also never had any problem with the roll I use messing with the pedal action at all.

But even with the pre-muffed heads (which sound cool), if it's being mic' through a port, it's best to have something at the bottom of the shell, even if it doesn't touch the heads, to stop the sound from bouncing around in there from being picked up by the mic and possibly causing problems.

I know we can sometimes get hooked up on the "I don't need to use muffling on my drums", but that's ego talking and not reality. Depending on the mic, it can become a nightmare at the wrong time if sound is bouncing around in an open, reflective cylinder....the dreaded "basketball".........
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  #45  
Old 05-26-2010, 11:21 PM
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Default Re: Show Us Your Muffling

This is a special foam we use inside bass guitar speaker cabinets ...

It is quite porous and slick and used to break up standing waves, note it does not touch the PS4 head (or the reso) does wonders
inside my 16x16 kick drum, it leaves plenty of life in the sound and out front it has the report of a cannon.

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  #46  
Old 05-26-2010, 11:38 PM
acegeister acegeister is offline
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Originally Posted by KarlCrafton View Post
I know we can sometimes get hooked up on the "I don't need to use muffling on my drums", but that's ego talking and not reality. Depending on the mic, it can become a nightmare at the wrong time if sound is bouncing around in an open, reflective cylinder....the dreaded "basketball".........
I'm a firm believer that it's NOT ego. I agree that if you put a single layer of 7.5 mil on both sides of your shell it would be a recording nightmare, but at the same time, if you select heads carefully according to your needs [minimal resonance (double ply and/or coated) for studio, maximum resonance (single ply/clear) for a huge arena], and tune them accordingly (making sure it's not identical tuning on both heads), then there should be no reason you have to stick mooncrap on your batter or pillows inside your kick. I agree it would be ego if you just assume your shells are magic, but you can easily select heads according to your needs without having to modify them after popping them on, even on budget shells... That is, if you do it correctly.

If after you have some double plies tuned with a pitchbend you still have too much res, pop some moonpoop on there, or if after you have a single ply on both sides and don't have enough res, tune them identical and you should get some ring, but until then, I recommend just selecting your heads carefully and putting some thought into exactly how you are going to be using your kit, all the while your goal being not to externally (or internally, for that matter) modify your heads.
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  #47  
Old 05-27-2010, 05:13 AM
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Default Re: Show Us Your Muffling

I agree, more people need to spend time learning how to tune, and learning what THEIR drums will do (and what they won't do).

I use plain old coated Ambassadors, and sometimes Emps if I feel like it.
Usually an Emperor on the snare because it gets more overtones I like.

No collar Remo snare side, or the Ludwig snare side if I want a brighter overall pitch.
I don't really ever use "muffling" on the drums at all.

I hand pick my drum heads too. I use very little muffling on my bass drum--just the towel between the head and pedal, and the poly foam in the bottom of the shell for stated reasons. It's simple and it works. The bass drum sounds "big", but it's NOT overly boomy--which would never work through a PA.

My kit probably has more "ring" or resonance than 95% of drummers. I like it that way, and so do all the bands I play with.

When sound guy's (who usually don't care about anything, or doing anything "extra") start smiling, and start giving you extra mic's and start talking to you, you know you're doing something right (I also rent one of my kits to a longtime Ludwig endorser when he's in town).

IF I DO use anything on a head to cut a slightly unwanted tone in a large hall, its a tiny piece of Moongel cut about an1/8th of an inch from the short side (I get about 7 from a square). It's smaller than the word REMO on the head.
Basically, all it does is tighten the sound a little for more definition.

I have to admit, seeing a whole piece of Moongel on a drum does make me shudder.
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  #48  
Old 05-27-2010, 06:25 AM
acegeister acegeister is offline
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Default Re: Show Us Your Muffling

Haha for sure. When I see drummers with moongel and tape and crap all over their heads it begs the question, "why the hell didn't you select your heads more carefully and tune them better instead of this diarrhea of muffling all over your stuff?"

I like my Remo Powersonic on my kick batter. Perfect amount of muffling right out of the box. Nice and big, and if I wish to hone it in a bit more, just snap on that exterior pad (same concept as the towel at the base). It's like magic. Best kick batter ever, imo.

I too like to keep the tone on my kit. Even though a muffled kit may sound cool playing solo, it sounds like cardboard when played with music, even more so in a large area. I've found bands enjoy playing with me too because they can hear the tone difference when I'm on the toms instead of just sounding like I'm banging on boxes.
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  #49  
Old 05-27-2010, 04:31 PM
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Default Re: Show Us Your Muffling

You know, even though the Powersonic head is kinda the same concept. On the couple kicks I have heard that head on, I hate the sound of it.

The foam type rings by themselves seem OK (still kinda 'rubbery'), but that pad just makes it sound "plapp-y" to me.
I guess if you spent time tuning, it could sound OK. It's the pad being attached to the head (and the clips on the head). The way I do it, the muff roll is free to move with the head back and forth (--same with the towel on one of the pics). It's not just 'part of the head' creating the overall sound.

Coated P3's sound nice, and Evan's (frosted) EQ1 heads sound nice. I wish Evans made a 26" head that DIDN'T have a muffling ring.

Aquarian's pre-muffled bass drum heads, other than the simple Studio X (with just the "Studio Ring" sticker material) are just way too dead sounding for my tatse.
The Carmine Appice snare head by them is cool, and the Hi-Energy head is cool sounding--especially considering how much power dot is on there!

I just like a simple drum head. It's just my taste in sound. Big, bright, or fat, full, solid, resonant...

With a simple 1 or 2 ply head, you can do what you need to it, and you start with a head that's not lowered in pitch (by extra material) or having some frequencies (tones, pitch, whatever) you might want taken away right off the bat.

If someone put tape all over a head, say, someone I saw play at a gig or show, and they played well, I'd assume they did it to get a certain sound.
Just like wide rings, full drum heads upside down, sheets of paper, and stuff like that.

In that case YOU are the one making the drum sound a certain way to suit what you are doing or what you want.

Like Alex Van Halen putting a specific things of tape on his snare. It got a certain sound (that worked) that wasn't going to be gotten by any "well tuned head" no matter what the type.
Glen Kotche does all sorts of stuff to his drums, Billy Ward, Keltner, etc..

I get what you were saying a couple posts down, but takes time, and not everyone "gets it" on tuning right away, or without some type of help.

Which, IMO is the reason pre-muffed heads were created in the first place. To make the drums people are playing at home sound like drums on a record.

SOME types do a great job and do make things easy, but other types just make drums too dead (IMO/E) to work for anything but home playing.

On every kit I have seen on a gig (big $$$, or lower line), if they have the dead sounding heads, and that "low tuning" to start with, the drums never cut through, so you can't really hear them, and what you do hear is muddy.

It's actually a WORSE sound on the high end drums.
Lower line shells may not have all the low end you'd prefer, or need, so in that case a 2 ply, or a deeper sounding head (like P3, or Emad, etc..) is going to do the trick.

High end shells (with great quality grade wood) have all the highs, mids & lows you'd need, so by adding more low end, or deadening the heads you might be doing too much or more than you want (but you have to deal with what that head gives you).

It might sound great to your ears--and that's perfect at home, but on a job, a few feet away, or a distance away, the drums can sound thin like hitting paper, or they could just not carry at all. And nobody wants that!!
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  #50  
Old 05-27-2010, 05:07 PM
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Default Re: Show Us Your Muffling

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Originally Posted by acegeister View Post
When I see drummers with moongel and tape and crap all over their heads it begs the question, "why the hell didn't you select your heads more carefully and tune them better instead of this diarrhea of muffling all over your stuff?"
Actually, that does come off kinda egotistical sounding, like you are "better" than someone, or they are just stupid.

You might not mean it that way, but like I said, not everyone likes the same sound, or has the experience in tuning (that you might).
Not everyone CAN pick out the specific head they want either (which would suck). The "tap test" is great, IF you can do it.....

Some time ago I used to think "why would someone want a 10-14 tom set up, and then tune it lower to sound bigger? Just get 'normal' size drums and tune them where they should be and get the right sound."

.....Maybe they just like it that way, or don't think about it that much and it works for them.

When it comes down to it, if someone has cruddy sounding drums at a show, and you don't (playing being equal), who's going to come across better?

People I've played shows with have come up to me raving about how awesome my drums sound, and they wished theirs did too, & how can theirs sound like that.....
So, I'd spend the time and tell them, giving tuning tips, and some details on why, etc.... Then, the next time we'd play a show together, their drums would sound the same as before...

Now I just say thanks.
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  #51  
Old 05-28-2010, 10:48 PM
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Default Re: Show Us Your Muffling

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Originally Posted by Kenny Allyn View Post
This is a special foam we use inside bass guitar speaker cabinets ...

It is quite porous and slick and used to break up standing waves, note it does not touch the PS4 head (or the reso) does wonders
inside my 16x16 kick drum, it leaves plenty of life in the sound and out front it has the report of a cannon.

very nice.

can the average person acquire this material ? is it expensive ?

what is that black cylinder in the center of the photo (just to the right of the reflection of your bass pedal) ? it looks like it might be an SM57 standing vertically. if so how is it mounted ?

thanks.
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  #52  
Old 05-28-2010, 11:48 PM
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Default Re: Show Us Your Muffling

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Originally Posted by KarlCrafton View Post

With a simple 1 or 2 ply head, you can do what you need to it, and you start with a head that's not lowered in pitch (by extra material) or having some frequencies (tones, pitch, whatever) you might want taken away right off the bat.

If someone put tape all over a head, say, someone I saw play at a gig or show, and they played well, I'd assume they did it to get a certain sound.
Just like wide rings, full drum heads upside down, sheets of paper, and stuff like that.

In that case YOU are the one making the drum sound a certain way to suit what you are doing or what you want.

Like Alex Van Halen putting a specific things of tape on his snare. It got a certain sound (that worked) that wasn't going to be gotten by any "well tuned head" no matter what the type.
Glen Kotche does all sorts of stuff to his drums, Billy Ward, Keltner, etc..

I get what you were saying a couple posts down, but takes time, and not everyone "gets it" on tuning right away, or without some type of help.
i realise that schools-of-thought change as time goes on. what may at one time have been SOP (standard operating procedure) may over time become "Why did they ever do it like that ?"

i really don't care for modern drum sounds. modernists may say my 70's sound sounds to them like cardboard boxes. that is the standard retort from what i call bonk-ers. to me, their kits sound like pots and pans which is why i call them bonk-ers. to them my warm fat low-tuned sound to them sounds like cardboard boxes. to me, their resonant, high pitched whatever they call it sounds like pots and pans.

it's horses for courses and i respect everyone's tastes. if that's what you like, that's what you like. no prob here. but if one tells me that my drums sound like cardboard boxes i will reply that theirs sound like pots and pans. : )

in addition to the above-named dudes, Levon Helm muffles especially in the studio as did Ringo and lots if not most old school dudes and dudettes. it used to be SOP. and these folx still operate pretty much the same way as they usta. if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

i for one am one of those who "didn't (still don't quite yet) 'get' tuning". nor do i have an expensive kit. [well, it was expensive to ME]. nor do i know what i would be listening for with the tap method, nor how that will translate to my drum. i know i have a lot more heads to try and drumsets to compare. in time, i too will know what works for me and what doesn't.

for me, it all clicked when i saw this:

this is a screenshot of Ed Cassidy the drummer for Spirit from the 1984 video shoot for "I've Got A Line On You". the one with Bob Welch and a coupla Hearts and Skunk Baxter along for the fun. as i watched the vid, it came to me THAT's the sound. or at least it's in the ballpark. i looked closer and there was the muffling. i'm not sure i want to muffle that WAY (the felt strips appear to be UNDER the rim of each head if you look close) but if that will get me that sound i'll try it.

i don't ever recall seeing a thread on Muffling Styles, so i figured i would ask THE MORE KNOWLEDGABLE what the landscape was like.

it appears that even those who aren't really into muffling still do so to some extent - if only the slightest extent.

i thank you all for your replies and would love to hear from more of you.
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  #53  
Old 05-29-2010, 12:20 AM
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Default Re: Show Us Your Muffling

The foam can usually be sourced from a place like Parts Express ...


The pole is actually the cymbal mount, I had an extra Yamaha cymbal arm so I put it to use on my micro kit.

Here is an above view.


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  #54  
Old 05-29-2010, 01:51 AM
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Default Re: Show Us Your Muffling

[quote=Kenny Allyn;705936]The foam can usually be sourced from a place like Parts Express ...


The pole is actually the cymbal mount, I had an extra Yamaha cymbal arm so I put it to use on my micro kit.

Here is an above view.


[/QUOT

ah i see. very nice.

thanks so much.
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  #55  
Old 05-29-2010, 02:52 AM
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Default Re: Show Us Your Muffling

Back in the eighties, when muffled drums was a sound you found a little more, I used tampax pads! They worked great. I always had a box setting next to my kit.

After sound check in a club during the afternoon and everything sounded great... Well you came back at 9:30 at night when there are now 150 people in the room and the air conditioner kicked on... inevitably one of my ride toms would have a big boing to it. I would grab one of those, peel off the tape and slap it on! Worked Great..

Now I am in the camp that hardly uses anything... I currently have a small towel in my bass. And even that, not all the time.
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  #56  
Old 05-29-2010, 07:26 AM
acegeister acegeister is offline
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Originally Posted by KarlCrafton View Post
Actually, that does come off kinda egotistical sounding, like you are "better" than someone, or they are just stupid.

You might not mean it that way, but like I said, not everyone likes the same sound, or has the experience in tuning (that you might).
Not everyone CAN pick out the specific head they want either (which would suck). The "tap test" is great, IF you can do it.....

Some time ago I used to think "why would someone want a 10-14 tom set up, and then tune it lower to sound bigger? Just get 'normal' size drums and tune them where they should be and get the right sound."

.....Maybe they just like it that way, or don't think about it that much and it works for them.

When it comes down to it, if someone has cruddy sounding drums at a show, and you don't (playing being equal), who's going to come across better?

People I've played shows with have come up to me raving about how awesome my drums sound, and they wished theirs did too, & how can theirs sound like that.....
So, I'd spend the time and tell them, giving tuning tips, and some details on why, etc.... Then, the next time we'd play a show together, their drums would sound the same as before...

Now I just say thanks.
You're right; I don't mean to sound pompous. I guess I should say my advice to any drummer seeking to make their kit sound better would be research heads (and all about thickness/coating/tuning/application etc etc) before sticking anything inside or on your drum.
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  #57  
Old 05-30-2010, 05:01 AM
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Default Re: Show Us Your Muffling

Ed Cassidy--great drummer. Solid!

Ya kno,,......"I" don't use muffling, and for the way I play, it works and I dig the sound, but some people dig other sounds and there's head types/tunings for that way too.

It's the little nit-picky things that, to some (probably most people), they wouldn't be....worried about maybe. Maybe I'm just too ultra fussy about the sound from a "hear it, feel it" stand point on my kit.

Such as, I dig the way Coated G1's sound when other people have them on their drums and play them, but when I do tried it, there wasn't as much life from the head, and the sound was lower than what I wanted. Not by much, just enough to make me not "get over it".

The G1 and G2's are GREAT heads, but, it's not the sound in my head I guess.

The funny thing to me is, on a provided kit, like a back line at a festival, as long as it's not falling apart, or in a weird position, a drum kit could have mis matched heads and I couldn't care less.
But on my kit, I couldn't have, say, and Evans snare head and Remo tom heads. It would just bug me... I know I'm not the only person who likes things a certain way.
I have made "progress" though, I'll now have regular and brilliant finish cymbals in a set up and not care, and a couple other things I've "gotten over" (yes, I know I was messed up hahaha!!)

As for muffling "back in the day" and now, check out the inside cover of Rush's All The Worlds A Stage!!!
NP (who has what? about the limit on 'pages' on DWorld) doesn't use "muffling" now, but back then, he had felt strips under the tom heads! AND he was using Evans ROCK heads, which were 2 ply and I think they were 7.5 mm, not 7mm (which Emps are, and I think G2's).
He also used to use the Remo clear head on the snare with the clear dot. Those heads sound & feel more "rubbery" than a regular Black Dot. The attack is softer too.

I agree, a lot of it was due to SOP, and then Pinstripes came out "for that wet sound", and Hydraulics, and all that...
Back in the 70's people (studio types) didn't "care" about the drum sounds, they cared about what sold last week in the top 40.
The Eagles were #1 this week? Then we need to make it sound like that....until something else got popular blahblahblah I'll stop now...
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Old 06-07-2010, 11:29 AM
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Default Re: Show Us Your Muffling

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Originally Posted by KarlCrafton View Post
Actually, that does come off kinda egotistical sounding, like you are "better" than someone, or they are just stupid.

You might not mean it that way, but like I said, not everyone likes the same sound, or has the experience in tuning (that you might).
Not everyone CAN pick out the specific head they want either (which would suck). The "tap test" is great, IF you can do it.....

Some time ago I used to think "why would someone want a 10-14 tom set up, and then tune it lower to sound bigger? Just get 'normal' size drums and tune them where they should be and get the right sound."

.....Maybe they just like it that way, or don't think about it that much and it works for them.

When it comes down to it, if someone has cruddy sounding drums at a show, and you don't (playing being equal), who's going to come across better?

People I've played shows with have come up to me raving about how awesome my drums sound, and they wished theirs did too, & how can theirs sound like that.....
So, I'd spend the time and tell them, giving tuning tips, and some details on why, etc.... Then, the next time we'd play a show together, their drums would sound the same as before...

Now I just say thanks.
yea. i've been on both sides of that scenario. i've been the one with the great sounding (rig) and i've been the one in search of a sound. when i'm the one who's searching for a sound...i've often been thankful and impressed that the guy with the great sound has even deemed to talk to me, much less, share what he knows. unbelievable. but then, a lot of what he / she says is so over my head, that while i can indeed grasp it, the implementing would take years of figuring out over time. oh that's what he meant 5 years ago when he said i should. well maybe the thing to do contains five components which you haven't mastered and possibly have never even heard of (yet).

so don't necessarily feel that you wasted your breath with intricate details of exactly how to "get that sound" and it was all for nothing and that all of your valid and invaluable info fell on deaf ears. dude prolly feels like He Let You Down, cause he doesn't begin to know where to start. and here you've told him everything he needs to do.

i've been on both sides of that fence. just know that dude or dudette is grateful for your time and could probably use a nudge in the right direction of this vast new world you recently told them existed.
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Old 06-07-2010, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by ChipJohns View Post
, I used tampax pads! They worked great. I always had a box setting next to my kit.
... inevitably one of my ride toms would have a big boing to it. I would grab one of those, peel off the tape and slap it on! Worked Great..

Now I am in the camp that hardly uses anything
Hahahaaaa.. Not even panty liners these days huh?
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  #60  
Old 07-12-2010, 04:07 AM
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I've been using the Dave Weckl Remo muffling system and so far so good. I have it on my batter and resonate and it's very controlled yet I can still hear the tone of the drum. Using a Powerstroke 3 on the batter. Delivers a real nice punch. Just my two cents.
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  #61  
Old 07-29-2010, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by phil_qc View Post
...just one Moongel on the snare when needed and
a little towel between the bass drum head and the pedal...

Philippe

classic towel on the bd. me too.
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  #62  
Old 07-29-2010, 11:34 PM
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that towel looks like it would interfere with your pedal action....
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Old 07-29-2010, 11:43 PM
mediocrefunkybeat
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Default Re: Show Us Your Muffling

I'm now going to explain a merit of 80's kits.

I recently acquired a mid-80's Pearl Export (from a generous donation) and decided to convert the 16" floor tom into a bass drum. Being the 80's kit it is, it came with built in mufflers which have been removed from the drums, but retained for posterity - except in the floor tom. It's actually incredibly useful and is now the only muffling on my kit. It sounds exactly how I wanted it to, running a Fiberskyn batter and an Ambassador resonant.
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Old 07-30-2010, 06:45 PM
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mikelaw mikelaw is offline
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Default Re: Show Us Your Muffling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectron View Post
that towel looks like it would interfere with your pedal action....
it does but i like the way it affects the action.
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