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  #321  
Old 01-31-2007, 02:48 AM
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Default Re: Heel Toe Technique

dont believe him, vruk is a gimmick, you can play the technique without it the same, it does'nt make it any easier. Everyone i know who has one sells it realising it is a bit of a gimmick, which is probably why it has never caught on.

Im not saying it is useless, it does work and does what it says, it does add loads of power to your pedal, but it does not make heel toe easy, it's just as difficult to master it with one as it is without one....so in conclusion save your 60 bucks and buy some drum sticks, or some new shoes.
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  #322  
Old 02-01-2007, 12:39 AM
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Default Re: Heel Toe Technique

Quote:
Originally Posted by samthebeat View Post
dont believe him, vruk is a gimmick, you can play the technique without it the same, it does'nt make it any easier. Everyone i know who has one sells it realising it is a bit of a gimmick, which is probably why it has never caught on.

Im not saying it is useless, it does work and does what it says, it does add loads of power to your pedal, but it does not make heel toe easy, it's just as difficult to master it with one as it is without one....so in conclusion save your 60 bucks and buy some drum sticks, or some new shoes.
Thanx for the advice, are there any pedals that are particulary good for heel toe besides the obvious. "Axis Pedals cause of their long footboard"- average drummer giving autopilot answer.
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  #323  
Old 02-02-2007, 12:22 AM
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Default Re: Heel Toe Technique

There was a recent response stating the vruk ( www.vrukpedal.com ) was a gimmick. Forgive me, but I must respond because you must understand the truth by someone who owns a vruk and has been playing for going on 30years.

Do not listen to this. That is as far from the truth as one can get. It is not a cheater tool. I don't know where this guy/girl got they're info, but it is completely incorrect. There are skills you can acquire with the vruk that you cannot perform on a standard pedal. Period. Can you implement a pressure stroke ( emphasizing the heel ) on a standard pedal? Nope... You absolutely cannot. Why? Well, it has to do with the fancy spring at the heel. Can you leave your entire foot on the pedal at all times, yet perform a heel-toe rolls? Nope... I bet you can't. Does this tool/technique do absolutely any of the work for you? Nope... You are in complete control and it will sit there like a bump on a log unless you learn to master it and even when you master it, it will still not do anything for you.

They call this the tool for the masters for a very good reason. Not everyone is ready, has the patience, or is open minded enough. However, you don't need to have master skills, but you must have a master's attitude toward something so unconventional, yet so revolutionary to be able to accept it and be patient with it. I can tell you that if you do have the attitude, it will change your playing forever. It changed mine.
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  #324  
Old 02-02-2007, 02:57 AM
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Default Re: Heel Toe Technique

definition of gimmick -

"In marketing language, a gimmick is a unique or quirky special feature that makes something "stand out" from its contemporaries. However, the special feature is typically thought to be of little relevance or use. Thus, a gimmick is a special feature for the sake of having a special feature."

I did not say it was a cheater pedal, like I said it does not make Heel any Easier, DWfan wants to perfect heel toe, Vruk is not necersarry for that to be achieved.

By the way, i owned a vruk hence why i have something to say about it.
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  #325  
Old 02-02-2007, 07:45 PM
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Default Re: Heel Toe Technique

Sorry for being so abrasive with my response. Opinions are wonderful and held highly in my book, but it just bothers me horribly when untrue claims are made.

Take it from a drummer that has played for almost 30years and is also restless and never satisfied with the status-quo, but at the same time very pragmatic ( I'm an Engineer, what can I say ). I am always hunting for better ways to do the same thing. Its an obsession, I must admit, but it keeps me sharp.

However, all I can do is talk talk talk. So, instead - I challenge you to challenge yourself. Do you have the patience? Do you have the devotion to play better? Do you have the ability to shed the status-quo? Do you have the ability to shelf ingrained traditions? Do you have just enough self contempt to challenge yourself technically? If so, then be ready to take your bass drum playing to a whole new level.
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  #326  
Old 02-27-2007, 12:28 AM
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Default Heel toe!?!?

Can someone tell me if when you play heel toe does it go RH LH RT LT or RH RT LH LT. I have been trying to do it fast but it always comes out as 4 notes. Thanks in advance! -Joe Peters
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  #327  
Old 02-27-2007, 12:32 AM
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Default Re: Heel toe!?!?

O yea...Can you also tell me how to improve on speed(play fast instead of just doubles) and indurance?
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  #328  
Old 02-27-2007, 01:35 AM
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Default Re: Heel toe!?!?

if you want to play singles - rh lh rt lt, if you want to play doubles - rh rt lh lt. control, endurance and speed comes with practice, it's really that simple! don't rush, you will eventually gain more controll, power, speed etc
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  #329  
Old 02-27-2007, 11:37 AM
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Default Re: Heel toe!?!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond Bloom View Post
if you want to play singles - rh lh rt lt, if you want to play doubles - rh rt lh lt. control, endurance and speed comes with practic, it's really that simple! don't rush, you will eventually gain more controll, power, speed etc
I agree. Speed will come in time don't worry about it. just keep practising it :)
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  #330  
Old 02-27-2007, 03:23 PM
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Default Re: Heel toe!?!?

Start really slow making each move a deliberate and exaggerated motion.
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  #331  
Old 02-27-2007, 08:24 PM
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Default Re: Heel toe!?!?

Heel-Toe warm up. Ex. is played one foot at a time starting w/ the left foot. Play 16th notes w/ your foot(heel-toe) while rolling 32nd notes( double stroke roll) w/ hands. Play 4 bars( 4/4 time) with each foot, 4 x,s =32 total bars. Then shorten it to 2 bars each foot=16 bars. Then 1 bar each foot= 16 bars. Then 3 beats (or 3/4 time) 16 bars. Then 2 beats each foot 16 bars (4/4). then 3/8 time.or (1 & a half beats). 16 x's. Then 1 beat each foot,16 bars(4/4 time). Then the last is 2 16th notes ( 1/2 a beat) 16 bars. After doing this for a while, try your HL, HR, TL, TR. single stoke roll. I do this about 3-4 days a week as a warm up to further work on my foot & hand technique. Another thing you could work on is Moeller triplets ( down, tap, up ). with your feet. Do this the same way you would do it w/ your hands. One foot at a time, both feet together, and intermixed (R-down, L-tap, R-tap, L-up, R-up, L-down) Or (R-down, L-up, R-tap, L-down, R-up, L-tap ) and so on. .....Later..T
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  #332  
Old 03-25-2007, 03:41 AM
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Default Re: Heel Toe Technique

I don't think getting your foot used to the heel-toe technique a good idea.
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  #333  
Old 03-25-2007, 02:19 PM
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Default Re: Heel Toe Technique

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonzo91 View Post
I don't think getting your foot used to the heel-toe technique a good idea.
And why is that?
Is it wrong to do such thing?
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  #334  
Old 03-26-2007, 09:18 PM
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Default Re: Heel Toe Technique

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonzo91 View Post
I don't think getting your foot used to the heel-toe technique a good idea.
Heel toe is just another technqie there are only 3 heel down, heel up, and heeltoe everything else is a motoion and variations of these...
I think for drummers to rely on heel and toe and use it as a cruutch would not be great idea.
But to rely on ANY technque would also not be a good thing....LOL you should be able to play the drums on ANY set in Any configuration.......
Just my 3 cents
Tim
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  #335  
Old 03-27-2007, 08:39 PM
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Default Re: heel-toe technique

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamadrummer132 View Post
i watched the videos.. i try it. i have a iron cobra double and.. my feet are size 13
i dont have enough room to do it lol
any solutions?
Yeah I'm a 14 too and I can play heel toe no bother.
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  #336  
Old 03-28-2007, 02:18 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Do any of ya'll feel that some pedals are better than others for heel-toe. I've used Axis pedals that seem easier than other brands. I've got a Gretsch pedal that I don't have such an easy time with.

What's your feelings?
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  #337  
Old 03-31-2007, 03:38 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

I agree the Axis Pedals seem easier for me as well. I have a size 12 shoe and can play heel toe on most pedals, however I find some pedals allow more efficient motion. I find the most effieicent way to get the most power, speed and consistency (at least for me) when doing heel to is to play what I call real Heel Toe. What I mean by this is I am actually making the first hit with my heel only (my toes are at least an inch off the foot board). As soon as the first hit is complete the heel bounces off the board upward and the ball/toe part of my foot naturally swings downward making the second hit. In order to do this with eliminator or Iron cobra pedals I have to move my foot beyond the heel plate which means my toes are either eating the chain or I curl them up and use the ball of the foot only (awkward but I have gotten used to it). I find this more powerful/efficient than using the ball/toe of my foot to make both the heel and toe hits although this works also. On the Axis pedals the foot board is longer and has more room making this easier. I imagine the variable drive and the beater forward design also help make the Axis pedals easier to tailor to your liking. The Axis are nice, however with some practice you should be able to do this technique on almost any pedal. I personally no longer use Axis due to their set screw mechanisms which tend to loosen and do not seem as robust as some others, I do however use their Universal drive shaft. Have not found anything better yet. Also working on constructing "Long boards" for my Eliminators. I will post information about this once I am finished if anyone is interested. What I have in mind should be adaptable to most conventional pedals also.
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  #338  
Old 04-01-2007, 05:23 AM
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Default Heel Up & Down

Hey guys -

I'm doing a lot of double bass stuff currently (playing doubles, paradiddles, inverts, etc. ALA Lang, Donati, etc.). In Lang's videos, he stresses the importance of playing both heel up and heel down for dynamic levels. I agree with this philosophy and have been trying to incorporate both styles into my playing.

My question is...how do you divide the time up? I've read a few posts that have stated that practicing heel down will help you play both heel down AND heel up, while heel up really doesn't have the same impact. The first time I started playing heel down it burnt, and I have to work harder and concentrate more. I don't really feel that at all when I play heel up.

Is heel down that much better for the development of your legs? Should I spend the majority of my time (practicing) heel down, to try to strengthen my legs, aka also helping my heel up playing?

I hope what I'm saying makes sense, and thanks in advance for anyone who can help me out here. Basically I'm just trying to practice as efficient as I can. If practicing heel down helps development more than practicing heel up, then I'll devote the majority of my time to the heel down method (in practice anyway), to further my development.
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  #339  
Old 04-01-2007, 10:44 AM
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Default Re: Heel Up & Down

Dividing practice time up is a question that comes up a lot. YOU have to find what works best for you, also you need to analyze your weaknesses, and work on them till they are no longer weaknesses, also you need to maintain your strengths.

Look at all techniques as tools for your toolbox, you have your basic main tools that you use for everyjob, then you have your specialty tools that are needed on rare occasions.

Develop a system to incorperate what you are trying to learn, say you are practicing paradiddles with your feet, you mainly play heel up, but you want to add heel down, you have 30 mins to work on these tools, you can do 15/15, 20/10, 25/5, depending on your needs. You can put together grooves with the foot patterns and constantly switch between the 2 techs and practice changing the dynamic level that each tech offers.

If you can make practice fun, you will practice better, and look forward to it.
While dry practicing has to be done, when you can make your practice in a musical setting, and with your imagination, adding pieces, removing pieces all around the pattern you are practicing, then you also learn to add it dynamically and that will more quickly make you in tune with it's practicle application.
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  #340  
Old 04-01-2007, 11:01 AM
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Default Re: Heel Up & Down

Yes, you should practice heel down. It will help isolate and develop ankle movement, which in turn gives you more control when playing heel up.
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  #341  
Old 04-01-2007, 02:12 PM
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Default Re: Heel Up & Down

Thanks spw, I'm generally pretty good at making good use of my time, I was just wondering whether or not practicing more heel down is more beneficial to my playing. Wavelength sort of cleared that up for me. Thanks a lot to both of you.
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  #342  
Old 04-01-2007, 07:26 PM
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Default Re: Heel Up & Down

Practicing heel down will help your ankle motion and pedal control. Do that first. It develops the lower leg but not much of the hamstrings or hip flexors, however.

Heel up playing will develop those.

There are essentially 3 leg motions. Heel down, heel up from the leg ("running" on the kicks) and heel up from the ankle. You need to eventually be able to employ all of them.

The most practical order to learn this stuff is to start with heel down then heel up/leg and finally heel up/ankle.
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  #343  
Old 04-01-2007, 10:23 PM
Ryanthedrummer Ryanthedrummer is offline
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Default Quick question on heel toe

hi, ive just started to learn heel toe and was just wondering how people play with the heel toe technique. is it usually heel toe heel toe or heel heel toe toe when playing 16th notes. sorry for the newbie question :P
Ryan
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  #344  
Old 04-01-2007, 11:15 PM
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Default Re: Quick question on heel toe

http://www.drummerworld.com/Drumclin...ick_Pope3.html
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  #345  
Old 04-02-2007, 05:35 AM
fazzybOO` fazzybOO` is offline
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Default Re: Quick question on heel toe

heel toe, heel toe, heel toe

or

toe heel, toe heel, toe heel
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  #346  
Old 04-02-2007, 01:24 PM
Ryanthedrummer Ryanthedrummer is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

thank you very much for the replies, im working on it :D
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  #347  
Old 04-02-2007, 11:41 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

I practice the heel first. I find it to be the easiest.

heel toe heel toe heel toe.
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  #348  
Old 04-03-2007, 05:49 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

If your feet are too big for the heel toe, then just do doubles like this. It may take longer to learn the doubles like this but i can assure you they are more even and effective.

http://drummerworld.com/Videos/VirgilDonati1.html

its a little ways into that video
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  #349  
Old 04-04-2007, 10:16 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Question for the experts :

For "unburying the beater" reasons, I would rather consider a toe heel motion (close to constant release a la Steve Smith) instead of a heel toe one but I wonder if potentially one gives more speed than the other ?

Has anybody developped both at the same level ? Can somebody give insight about this ?

Thanks
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  #350  
Old 04-05-2007, 09:05 AM
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Default Re: heel toe technique for bigfoot

Quote:
Originally Posted by skippy View Post
oh well looks like im stuck. i can get some fast singles on my pedal by a twitching motion i started using.
Take your shoes off and you'll be fine. I got 12 feet too, and I got the cheapest pedals you can get (Basix); they're also the smallest pedals I've ever seen. I still pull off heel-toe easily. Just take off your shoes and you should be alright.
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  #351  
Old 04-05-2007, 06:21 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnhavart View Post
Question for the experts :

For "unburying the beater" reasons, I would rather consider a toe heel motion (close to constant release a la Steve Smith) instead of a heel toe one but I wonder if potentially one gives more speed than the other ?

Has anybody developped both at the same level ? Can somebody give insight about this ?

Thanks
Perhaps you have this already figured out, however I find it is good to keep in mind that playing closer to the hinge (regardless of what part of the foot you are using) will require less foot movement to make the beater move the same amount. This means that it should be easier to unbury the beater since less foot motion is required. I am not familiar with the constant release a la Steve Smith, but here are some things I have found.

When I play toe heel strokes I naturally incorporate some slide motion. This is so I can make the first hit real close to the pedals hinge. And then make the Heel hit (more using the whole foot) further up the board. I realize the foot does not have to slide, however I find the extra motion of the sliding allows you to kick the beater into the drum (here the pedal bounces off my foot) rather than keeping contact all the way. Once the beater makes the hit there is nothing to keep it buried into the head. I feel I can get a little more power by kicking the pedal like this as well.

I also play what I refer to as real heel toe where I make the first hit with my heel only (ball and toes are off the foot board) then rapidly rotate the toes downward as the heel comes up. I find this can make doubles so fast the 2 notes are almost indistinguishable due to the fact that the heel hit is so close to the hinge and can almost immediately unbury the beater, however I feel the reset time to get ready for the next double hit takes a bit longer since the foot is more stationary and the second hit is made with the ball/toe part of the foot which is toward the top of the foot board, thus taking more motion to remove the beater. With the Toe heel method I find time to reset for the next double seems faster and easier, however I still feel the actual double hit is a little slower. This may be b/c I have been doing toe heel about 1/10 as long as Heel toe. I hope this may give you some things to think about to help out.
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  #352  
Old 04-05-2007, 06:48 PM
johnhavart johnhavart is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Many thanks for your input SleepyDave

I gonna study it thoroughly

Maybe a video could definitely clarify this issue !
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  #353  
Old 04-07-2007, 01:49 AM
BigSexyPanda BigSexyPanda is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

have you guys who are dieing to look for a video ever look on youtube? ive seen tons of em and im sure theres more and one more thing. For you guys with big feet, that shouldnt stop you from doing the heel toe. I have almost size 12 feet and I can do heel toe with half my off of the pedal. You're not ACTUALLY using the heel to literally push down the pedal.
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  #354  
Old 04-07-2007, 10:59 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

i wish i could do virgil type of doubles :-s....heel-toe was very easy to pick up ... but using virgils style, i havent come up to speed ... still struggling at very low bpm. lots of work reqd there.
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  #355  
Old 04-11-2007, 05:48 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvikred View Post
i wish i could do virgil type of doubles :-s....heel-toe was very easy to pick up ... but using virgils style, i havent come up to speed ... still struggling at very low bpm. lots of work reqd there.
Mvikred or someone else, could you please give me some insight to the Virgil Doubles or at least a link. I looked on some of the previous links to Virgil videos, but didn't notice anything obvious there. Could someone please help me out and give a little more explanation or a link? I'm getting the impression he is doing something different from toe-heel or heel-toe but can't seem to find out what it is. Thanks in advance.
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  #356  
Old 04-11-2007, 10:20 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyDave View Post
Mvikred or someone else, could you please give me some insight to the Virgil Doubles or at least a link. I looked on some of the previous links to Virgil videos, but didn't notice anything obvious there. Could someone please help me out and give a little more explanation or a link? I'm getting the impression he is doing something different from toe-heel or heel-toe but can't seem to find out what it is. Thanks in advance.
From what I have observed VIRGIL does what is called constant release at slower speeds....
BUT at higher speeds you'll see his feet slide ....and you'll you'll see on some vids his heels almost touch the footboard...
you play the first note heel down and the 2nd heel up except he starts LRR LL RR and so on you can learn these by letting your heel come down but eventually you just raise your heells of the footboard..sometimes STEVE SMITH explains the constant release the best on his DVD
start slow as this takes time and patience to develope.
Good luck
Tim
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  #357  
Old 04-11-2007, 11:01 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

My drum teacher has been a bit opaque on heel-toe. Primarily because he doesn't do it! Instead he has this rather curious "hop" motion where he starts with the ball of his foot quite low on the board, taps the pedal to get a beat, and catches it with his foot which moves a bit up whilst the spring returns the board for the second beat. It certainly works well enough for him to sound better than me (a humble beginner of 2.25 of your Earth years). It must surely be mechanically less efficient though?

I ignored him because I'd sort of seen a few videos and have been slowly nurturing the Steve Smith stylee technique. It seems very similar to other techniques talked about here, the main difference I can see being some start with heel down and others with heel up. Both have the "rocking bounce". Meh, I'm a bit iffy whatever the position. Practice, practice, practice, so much to practice, so little time...
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  #358  
Old 04-17-2007, 03:07 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Thanks for the clarification Tim,
Doesn't seem like you coud get a lot of power that way, but I'm sure you and Virgil have much more experience with this.

A few posts ago I mentioned making a Pearl Longboard. Well, it is done now and here is a link to the pic. It also includes beater mounts from the Iron Cobras so I can adjust the beater to cam angle (anyone should be able to make this mod if desired).
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/4949/1000818rh4.jpg

I find with the smooth surface on the footboard I can do a real quick toe heel toe triplet.
I have not heard much about doing single footed triplets on here, but I do hear a lot about practicing both heel-toe as well as toe-heel. From what I can tell the triplet lets me practice both heel toe and toe heel since it combines both motions. Anyone else practicing this way. Just wondering if there may be a drawback I am missing?
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  #359  
Old 04-17-2007, 04:08 AM
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mvikred mvikred is offline
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Posts: 7
Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyDave View Post
Thanks for the clarification Tim,
Doesn't seem like you coud get a lot of power that way, but I'm sure you and Virgil have much more experience with this.

A few posts ago I mentioned making a Pearl Longboard. Well, it is done now and here is a link to the pic. It also includes beater mounts from the Iron Cobras so I can adjust the beater to cam angle (anyone should be able to make this mod if desired).
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/4949/1000818rh4.jpg

I find with the smooth surface on the footboard I can do a real quick toe heel toe triplet.
I have not heard much about doing single footed triplets on here, but I do hear a lot about practicing both heel-toe as well as toe-heel. From what I can tell the triplet lets me practice both heel toe and toe heel since it combines both motions. Anyone else practicing this way. Just wondering if there may be a drawback I am missing?
the doubles virgil does are consistent , even and powerful. its takes a good amount of time to get that type done. check for some of virgil;s clinic vids on youtube. u will find it there. or u can search for derek roddy 's explanation of the same on youtube too.

about single leg triplets, i think jojo mayer does that to perfection, even single foot quadruplets. jojo does it heel-toe-heel i think ... i rarely do it, but wen i do its heel-toe-toe.
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  #360  
Old 05-03-2007, 02:26 PM
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z0mbie z0mbie is offline
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Location: U.K, England
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Heel toe is a good method, check out Derrick Pope he does a good explanation. I think the steve smith constant release is a beast at getting fast straight pedals, triplets and is a good way of building up your ankle mucles but it takes a long while to get right lol I've tried for about 3 months now and cant get the bloody thing past 200bpm :( but heel toe I find is a bit orquard for me, doesnt feel as natural as the constant release.
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