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  #281  
Old 08-27-2006, 02:23 AM
Chip
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

The only way I'm currently using heel-toe is for a quick RR when it's too fast for my heel-up doubles. Which is rarely, I barely use them.

I agree with Jeff, heel-toe is the easiest. That being said... I don't like it, it seems inefficient and uncomfortable. Now (with some help from Finn) I can see what Virgil is doing when he does double strokes. I paid attention to my foot stroke (doubles), and I do the same motion, just not as exaggurated. Basically, do a normal, full leg stroke. Do this a few times. Now, snap the ankle down on the way up, then bring down the normal leg stroke (bad exaplanation, but it's the basic movement). It's been giving me more consistent doubles, too. I'm not doing this just because Virgil does (well, a little bit, look how much control he has!), but because it feels more natural to me. Spend a few weeks/months practicing and researching different techniques, and find the most comfortable one for you.

Now I have to get a bigger mirror so I can see exactly what I'm doing without craning my neck to see with the little one I have now...
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  #282  
Old 08-29-2006, 06:08 AM
JWM JWM is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

For me, I practice accents on doubles both ways (or any series of notes for that matter). For accenting the first note, the heel comes down first, for accenting the second it's the toe and then the heel.

Why only be good at one way? I think it's just about where you want to place accents: the heel is the accent (which for me doesn't actually play the pedal because of my foot size and current pedal; rather, it hits the plate and acts as a "stop" at certain tempos) and the toe is the non-accent.

As for Virgil, you'll notice he primarily does reverse doubles (RLLRRLLRR); this is because he never does heel/toe. Personally, I think this is limiting. Both heel/toe and toe/heel, if you will, should be practiced so as to be as versatile as possible.

Maybe some time I can post a youtube of my foot technique...
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  #283  
Old 08-29-2006, 01:32 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by JWM
For me, I practice accents on doubles both ways (or any series of notes for that matter). For accenting the first note, the heel comes down first, for accenting the second it's the toe and then the heel.

Why only be good at one way? I think it's just about where you want to place accents: the heel is the accent (which for me doesn't actually play the pedal because of my foot size and current pedal; rather, it hits the plate and acts as a "stop" at certain tempos) and the toe is the non-accent.

As for Virgil, you'll notice he primarily does reverse doubles (RLLRRLLRR); this is because he never does heel/toe. Personally, I think this is limiting. Both heel/toe and toe/heel, if you will, should be practiced so as to be as versatile as possible.

Maybe some time I can post a youtube of my foot technique...
I'd love to check out your video, bro.

I understand where you're coming from. Frankly, I use all singles when playing with a band. I have so many things I'm working on that I have to prioritize them and doing hours of doubles with the feet is not a top priority. I wish I had 8 hrs a day to practice! 3 isn't enough.
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  #284  
Old 08-29-2006, 09:21 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Almeyda
I'd love to check out your video, bro.

I understand where you're coming from. Frankly, I use all singles when playing with a band. I have so many things I'm working on that I have to prioritize them and doing hours of doubles with the feet is not a top priority. I wish I had 8 hrs a day to practice! 3 isn't enough.
Cool... yeah, I'll try to get some vid up pretty soon here. I look forward to your feedback.

And I'm actually just working these things on single pedal right now. Like you, I have to prioritize my time, but I think it's cool to do that, because you end up working on things that are most important to playing music.

Cheers.
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  #285  
Old 09-08-2006, 11:00 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by skippy
ok you all no what they say about guys with big feet...they cant play the heel toe thing...so i have size 12 shoes and a dw 7000 pedal anyone who can help me leard this will be greatly admired...please help.
thanks in advance


skippy
I had this friend in high school, was my drummer in my band, and my best friend. When he was born his feet did something weird so when he walked his feet were like on 45's all the time. So he wanted to learn double base, and believe it or not, this dude was the best I had ever heard (small town) anyways, thats the way he played, on 45's. Now if I could get it to work for me, then sweet cuppin cakes I would rock, but..
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  #286  
Old 09-11-2006, 04:14 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by skippy
ok you all no what they say about guys with big feet...they cant play the heel toe thing...so i have size 12 shoes and a dw 7000 pedal anyone who can help me leard this will be greatly admired...please help.
thanks in advance


skippy
Size 14, man. And it is hard to do heel-toe style. I just slide my foot across the pedal when I do it. It takes a while to get used to but when you get it down, it feels normal. The hard part of sliding is timing it so you can reuse the 'recoil' for lack of a better (cooler) word.

EDIT: Also learn to play with your feet at an angle, as has been said, but I reiterate because it is help for peeps with big feet.
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  #287  
Old 09-16-2006, 02:50 PM
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Default Heel toe order!?

Okay,so i have the heel toe technique down and find it helps my playin a lot,BUT i would like to see if it could improv my constant double bass playing. Therefore i ask which is the best way to play it with two feet?
R = right foot, L = Left foot, H = heel, T = toe

Is it:

RH,LH,RT,LT or RH,RT,LH,LT?

Thnx for any help
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  #288  
Old 09-16-2006, 02:57 PM
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Default Re: Heel toe order!?

Basically, you're asking about double strokes or single strokes. If you can already do doubles with your feet, well, doubles will most likely work for you with heel-toe. Singles can feel pretty unnatural and strange with heel-toe, though.

Doubles with heel-toe is very commonplace (I myself can't do it, amongst everything else), that's what you'll catch a lot of people doing.

All in all, do what feels best for you.
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  #289  
Old 09-16-2006, 03:44 PM
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Default Re: Heel toe order!?

Chip's got it.

Doing singles with heel-toe sounds like crap (IMO, of course) and it's very difficult to coordinate with the hands during an actual groove. A BIG waste of time for a gimmicky technique.

My advice is to work on heel down for singles. Practicing heel-down will greatly improve your heel-up singles.

Use heel-toe for doubles.

Disclaimer: I myself use heel-up for doubles (ala Virgil) and it sounds and feels much better to me than heel-toe.

Second disclaimer: Doubles on double kick are not very applicable to real-life playing. Practice them at the risk of not working on other, more useful techniques.
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  #290  
Old 09-17-2006, 02:05 PM
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Default Re: Videos of Heel toe bass method

Quote:
Originally Posted by larkin42
I was wondering if the heel-toe technique is any faster than playing heel up, i watched this video and i can play anything he is playing on there and more, playing heel up.

If it is a faster way of play, I will give it a shot and try it out.
Same, I can do tripplets faster than the joker in the video using the heel up technique. Seems to work well for me but this heel-top concept has interested me.....
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  #291  
Old 09-17-2006, 07:07 PM
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Default Re: Heel toe order!?

Thnx for the advice,but i do find heel toe more comfortable for two notes in succession such as on folowd by offbeat bass at a quik pace. THis is probably as i havent been drumming too long though so leg muscles havent developed or something for heel up speed :P Thnx anyways
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  #292  
Old 09-20-2006, 08:15 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by skippy
ok you all no what they say about guys with big feet...they cant play the heel toe thing...so i have size 12 shoes and a dw 7000 pedal anyone who can help me leard this will be greatly admired...please help.
thanks in advance


skippy
Well I have size 14 feet and have no trouble doing heel toe.

First of all, take the toe stops off the pedals and get your feet as far up as you can. If that doesn't work for you, which it should then try moving your foot so that the heel is off the end of the pedal and then try they motion. Heel toe is incredibly easy.
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  #293  
Old 09-23-2006, 02:56 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

do both, i do, it got me the fastest drummer award in asc with wfd for 1357 bpm!!!
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  #294  
Old 10-01-2006, 03:14 AM
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Default Re: Heel Toe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny_Stacks
if you got that big of a foot i dont no if you could be able to do heel toe man lol. im a size 9 and i have trouble doing it. i have to put my foot off to the side to do it

- John

EVERYBODY LISTEN

TAKE YOUR SHOES OFF

and if you have a chain drive pedal, put ur foot really high up on the footboard and its ok to push on the chain

i have size 13[us] shoes and i can do it great with my right foot and im getting better with my left

and dont do heel-toe without music

always be listening to something or air-drumming something

it helps alot if you wanna stay even
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  #295  
Old 10-01-2006, 08:17 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

I have size 16 feet, and can do the heel toe method. All thanks to derrick pope's video!!
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  #296  
Old 10-02-2006, 06:03 PM
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Default Heel Toe (Spring tension)

Would it be ok putting to spring tension to maximum like really tight) ?
I seem to find that when using heel toe on the double pedal I´m getting week strokes...
I gues that maybe it´s because the spring tension is very loose

What do you guys think?
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  #297  
Old 10-02-2006, 06:09 PM
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Default Re: Heel Toe (Spring tension)

I used medium spring tension on my pedal.
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  #298  
Old 10-03-2006, 05:48 AM
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Default Re: Heel Toe (Spring tension)

Quote:
Originally Posted by h3r3tic
Would it be ok putting to spring tension to maximum like really tight) ?
I seem to find that when using heel toe on the double pedal Im getting week strokes...
I gues that maybe its because the spring tension is very loose

What do you guys think?
I'm not sure if you mean heel/toe (Derrik Pope) or up/down (Jojo Mayer...I still have no idea of the correct name for this technique). For up/down, it works at all tensions, but I can player longer without getting stressed or exausted with low tension. The best thing to do is to try it yourself. Experiment with spring tensions and see what works for you best. If it's weak at all tensions, then the problem is probaly with your technique and not the equipment.
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  #299  
Old 10-03-2006, 03:39 PM
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Default Re: Heel Toe (Spring tension)

Hey guys thanks for the posts.
This morning I started with a Heel Toe exercise for 20 mins with the springs on medium tension and it worked lovely :)

Thanks guys
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  #300  
Old 10-03-2006, 04:25 PM
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Default Re: Heel Toe (Spring tension)

Jojo Mayer has the spring tension very loose, John Blackwell likes very tight spring tension, it really depends on what have you used? The way you set the spring tension normally is the way you would want 'em for heel-toe!
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  #301  
Old 10-10-2006, 06:29 PM
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Default Heel Toe Question

The 1st time I saw this technique was when Ive downloaded Derrick Popes Heel Toe video and Im thankful for his work on making these great lessons :) Thanks Man ;)
So when I started practising the Heel Toe I was doing it like -> Heel-Toe - Heel Toe... which is very confortable but then I wanted to speed up a little after somne days of practise and I accidently isntead of Heel-Toe - Heel Toe... I was doing Heel, Heel - Toe, Toe. I started with my right foot on Heel, then on my left foot Hell and then finally by using the Toe on my right and then the Toe of my left ;)
So Ive gotta say that I find using the Heel Toe method this way more confortable

Am I doing it right?
Are there any advantages or disadvantages?

Thanks dudes :)
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  #302  
Old 10-15-2006, 01:28 AM
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Default heel-toe technique

i watched the videos.. i try it. i have a iron cobra double and.. my feet are size 13
i dont have enough room to do it lol
any solutions?
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  #303  
Old 10-15-2006, 04:13 AM
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Default Re: heel-toe technique

Practice another method. I just went to this Derek Roddy clinic and he said he's never had luck with heel toe, and just uses heel-down with a bit of help from his legs. Heel-toe isn't the only way to get control.
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  #304  
Old 10-15-2006, 06:38 AM
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Default Re: heel-toe technique

angle your foot maybe? I have size 16, I win!
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  #305  
Old 10-15-2006, 09:36 AM
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Default Re: heel-toe technique

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamadrummer132
i watched the videos.. i try it. i have a iron cobra double and.. my feet are size 13
i dont have enough room to do it lol
any solutions?
Oh, you can do it..trust me.
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  #306  
Old 10-15-2006, 10:42 AM
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Default Re: heel-toe technique

I have a size 14. IT IS POSSIBLE!!!

1. Remove all toe stoppers and other such things.

2. Lighten your footwear. Even if you wear a size 8 shoe, if you have giant nike basketball shoes on, its gonna be tough. I play barefoot but thats just a personal preference. Tim Waterson uses water socks. Maybe try some light converse low-tops.

3. Heel drops on the back of the footboard and rolls forward, the toe catches the board as the beater is on its way back and throws it forward again. Make sure you understand the physics of what is actually happening.

I say again: IT IS POSSIBLE

D
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  #307  
Old 10-16-2006, 01:38 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by stee
do both, i do, it got me the fastest drummer award in asc with wfd for 1357 bpm!!!
Yeah? Well I'm the best looking drummer in the world!!! Just ask my wife.

Seriously, are you actually ranked by the WFD or are you just another guy who talks alot? If you are ranked, much respect. If not, shut up.

Secondly, a WFD title and a dollar won't even get you on the subway. WFD is cool but let's stop thinking that anyone outside of our little world gives a damn about it. I like it for the technique aspect and the guys in it are cool (for the most part) but WFD titles don't make the hair on the back of your arms stand up the way great music does.
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  #308  
Old 01-29-2007, 12:12 AM
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Default Heel Toe Technique

I've been trying heel toe technique for ages and can not ssem to gain speed or quick enough response in my feet. I do 500 heel toes a day to practice.Can some please help me. Help!
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  #309  
Old 01-29-2007, 03:40 AM
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Default Re: Heel Toe Technique

Quote:
Originally Posted by DWfan20005 View Post
I've been trying heel toe technique for ages and can not ssem to gain speed or quick enough response in my feet. I do 500 heel toes a day to practice.Can some please help me. Help!
I think that Tim Waterson's DVD is either out or will be soon. He's used heel/toe in a very famous way, if you don't already know.

Here's his myspace--

myspace.com/timwaterson
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  #310  
Old 01-29-2007, 03:54 AM
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Default Re: Heel Toe Technique

Check out this thread, brought you you by Drummerworld's very own, Derrick Pope!
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  #311  
Old 01-29-2007, 01:11 PM
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Default Re: Heel Toe Technique

Thanx for the suggestions guys but I have watched the Derrick Pope numerous times for reference. Thats why im so desarate for help because i have watched the videos of heel toe on the internet and see no improvement.
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  #312  
Old 01-29-2007, 02:03 PM
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Default Re: Heel Toe Technique

Just keep at it it will come, and practice it very slowly.

These kinda motions can take months to learn, thats just the way it is. it will come, no amount of watching vidoes will change that, providing you understand the technique that is.
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  #313  
Old 01-29-2007, 02:08 PM
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Default Re: Heel Toe Technique

I struggled to get my heel-toe even for a while, got the strokes to sound almost even, but couldn't roll evenly at low speeds, so I tried the constant release.

From the horses mouth ( not that Steve looks like a horse persay ):
http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/smith.html
and watch the video, I'm not sure when Vic Firth change the videos so best to have a look ASAP.

This will help heel up and heel down, and has improved my heel toe aswell.
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  #314  
Old 01-29-2007, 04:57 PM
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Default Re: Heel Toe Technique

Thanx guys for all your help. The constant release has gotten rid of my fear of the heel toe technique and I wont give up practicing it. Your advice is greatly appreciated.
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  #315  
Old 01-29-2007, 05:30 PM
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Default Re: Heel Toe Technique

In casethat video is taken down, I've uploaded it on youtube:
Here.
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  #316  
Old 01-29-2007, 06:37 PM
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Default Re: Heel Toe Technique

Thanks for the link - something else to work on!!
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  #317  
Old 01-29-2007, 08:19 PM
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Default Re: Heel Toe Technique

Constant release is the way to go.1- It works alot like moeller (same physics principle). 2. It doesn't directly involve the heel but the motions are similar. Actual heel-toe seems to work by strikeing the footpedal with the toe and the heel. In my opinion this doesn't make much sense. If you do this your'e never hitting the footpedal in the sweet spot. Like holding a drumstick in a balanced place for you're fulcrum. Why would you want to move your hand around the stick looseing bounce. When you do constant release it puts the strikeing point of the ball of your foot on the sweet spot of the pedal for both the downstroke & uptroke.(and the tap strokes for triplets and so on). If you want to get your feet (or foot if you don't have a double pedal)in shape to better execute these motions, look up my post on the "double bass thread"( pg. 16 ). It is in my opinion it's the best overall way to develop strong well balanced feet.......later.......T

Last edited by SEVNT7; 01-29-2007 at 08:39 PM. Reason: adding info
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  #318  
Old 01-30-2007, 05:11 PM
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Default Re: Heel Toe Technique

Quote:
Originally Posted by samthebeat View Post
Just keep at it it will come, and practice it very slowly.

These kinda motions can take months to learn, thats just the way it is. it will come, no amount of watching vidoes will change that, providing you understand the technique that is.
I have been practicing heel toe at a quarter note pattern and it has been working better. I noticed now that it is more about training muscles, not performing stuff from memory(if that makes sense).
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  #319  
Old 01-30-2007, 10:30 PM
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Default Re: Heel Toe Technique

This technique is so important. Check out the Vruk pedal. It will allow you to take this technique to a whole new level. You will be able to do things you could only dream of.
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  #320  
Old 01-31-2007, 02:32 AM
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Default Re: Heel Toe Technique

Quote:
Originally Posted by dea View Post
This technique is so important. Check out the Vruk pedal. It will allow you to take this technique to a whole new level. You will be able to do things you could only dream of.
Can you give a link relating to the Vruk pedal. I have not heard of it before,thanx.
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