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  #241  
Old 07-07-2006, 04:41 PM
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Default Re: how to do Heel toe for biger feet

Ok tiny question.

I've been practising alot on a stock Tama Swingstar pedal (just so you know what pedal I'm using) and I keep banging my heel on the heel plate. Help?

Also, when you're going down on the heel stroke, on a heel plated pedal lets say, which part of your foot actually makes contact with the pedal? THe ball of the foot or the entire surface of the foot?
And when going back up with the toe stroke, is it more like the up stroke when you play with the hands? as in leg moves up and the toe just taps the footboard.

I'm trying my best to understand this technique. Thanks for any input
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  #242  
Old 07-07-2006, 05:11 PM
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Default Re: how to do Heel toe for biger feet

I have found that removing the toe-stop on my eliminator helps as I have fairly large feet.

Trouble is though I have not mastered heel toe so I prefer to work on it at home with my crappy old pedal and not waste rehearsal time by focusing on me and not playing as solid as I could!
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  #243  
Old 07-07-2006, 06:07 PM
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Default Re: how to do Heel toe for biger feet

So, when can we expect the Tim Waterson Derek Pope drum battle?
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  #244  
Old 07-07-2006, 07:17 PM
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Default Re: how to do Heel toe for biger feet

Awesome!

So is there any definitive word on the difference between heel/toe barefoot or with shoes? pros/cons of each?

What is the best way to practice the motion away from the drumset? I have a futz under my desk @ work and I have a long train commute from NJ to NYC where I can try to train my muscle memory.

What about flat foot?

Is there a difference in the motion between "heel-toe" "rocking motion" and "constant release"? or are they different words to explain the same technique?

Thanks so much for the video with the closeups. I know we are all getting a lot out of the videos you keep posting.

Howie
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  #245  
Old 07-08-2006, 04:06 AM
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Default Re: how to do Heel toe for biger feet

It doesn't matter what brand you use...I can do heel-toe on a Pearl P-100, a Gibraltar pedal that falls apart after playing about 5 minutes, and a Tama Iron Cobra. What I find that helps is to practice heel-toe with your foot approaching the pedal from the side. This way only the front half of your foot will be on the pedal.

Thanks for the video Tim. I've been confused about the concept of using the heel for a while now. Now I know that heel-toe and what I used to refer to as toe-ball are the exact same thing! It just got really confusing with different people's perspectives on the use of the heel. This video cleared everything up for me; however, I still think that heel-toe is a misleading name for the technique.
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  #246  
Old 07-08-2006, 05:35 AM
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Default Re: how to do Heel toe for biger feet

I have size 8 feet. I've yet to see the video (slow connection) but i've been trying all sorts of pedal technique with my feet. Even with size 8, I really couldn't do the heel-toe technique where you actually hit the pedal with your heel. I dont think you do that. What I do is use my toes, then drop the cheek bone under my toe, toe, drop, toe, drop. I eventually got the drops to sound the same. And its not really tiring as compared with all toe playing.

With that, i have concluded that it doesnt really matter if you have a size 12 or 15.. maybe not size 20 or what pedal you use (I have gibraltar 5600).

hope this helps
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  #247  
Old 07-09-2006, 03:14 AM
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Default Re: Videos of Heel toe bass method

Quote:
Originally Posted by jedrgy
Do those of you who have the video think its worth the 10 bucks?? http://www.heeltoetechnique.com/
OKAY COULD SOMEONE PLEASE HELP ME OUT ALL I HAVE BEEN SEEING IS THIS 10 DOLLAR THING BUT ALL I EVER SEE ON THE LINK IS A BASS SECRETS DRUM PACK FOR $50 COULD SOMEONE WRITE ME A PRIVATE MESSAGE EXPLAINING THIS PLEASE
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  #248  
Old 07-09-2006, 03:25 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Three words. Don't do it.
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  #249  
Old 07-11-2006, 05:05 PM
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Default Re: how to do Heel toe for biger feet

I've recently starting practicing this technique; I've been playing heel-up for >15 yrs.

I'm in agreement that the success of the technique has nothing to do with pedal manufacturer or foot size. I've got 11.5s with DW 9000 series (which seems like a smallish footboard), and the motion happens, even with my heel off the hinge-end of the footboard.

Hope this helps!

SRJ
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  #250  
Old 07-12-2006, 04:46 PM
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Default Heel Toe success! (Partly...)

We'll I've finally gotten the heel toe technique to work (goddamit I never realised it was so ^%($*%*(@#$& SIMPLE!! Thank you Tim Waterson and Derrick Pope!!)

I'm getting very nice and smooth doubles using the heel toe method. It's awesomely quick, and very much more relaxed.

The small problem I have is with the constant release of it to create a constant flow of notes (like in Tim Waterson's big boot video..). I'm now forcing a lot of control on it to get spread out notes, but that's caused me to go so slow, tapping my feet normally is even faster than heel toe. I need some help on the constant release practice. (I'm using 1 pedal btw, so I really want to learn this instead of just doubles on the pedal)

How does the motion slow down and constantly go up and down at the same speed? I'm getting a little too used to banging my heel down and then immediately using the toe stroke to get quick doubles. So what next? Is it normal to do the constant releasing really really really slowly first? (Kind of like how I used the Gladstone for 1 handed rolls last time...)
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  #251  
Old 07-12-2006, 08:09 PM
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Default Re: Heel Toe success! (Partly...)

hey what is the whole heel toe technique iv heard about? i'd really like to learn if it helps control and speed
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  #252  
Old 07-12-2006, 08:22 PM
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Default Re: Heel Toe success! (Partly...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomodrum1
hey what is the whole heel toe technique iv heard about? i'd really like to learn if it helps control and speed
there are tons of threads concerning this, and many videos as well.. use the search button
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  #253  
Old 07-12-2006, 08:54 PM
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Default Re: Heel Toe success! (Partly...)

i got the heel toe technique in about 5 mins cheers
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  #254  
Old 07-15-2006, 03:44 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

This technique looks like it works real well, it's just gonna take me some time.
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  #255  
Old 07-18-2006, 08:26 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

cool. i've been practicing steve smith's constant release heel toe technique for a month and i can keep 260 very even strokes with my right foot in a minute and can keep going nearly indefinitely. the technique feels better at higher speeds ...like my foot is floating over the pedal and because of the way the heel moves i feel very balanced on my throne with no leaning forwards or backwards.
as a discipline i am keeping my left foot playing every second note (130b/min) and once i am comfortable i am stuffing around with rudiments over the toms and snare. i am also trying the basic double bass beats but with one pedal and at these speeds (130ish). i am also trying dynamic patterns while keeping the beats with the right foot steady. all good at speeds between 120 and 135.

this is an excellent result. my target is to play 360 even dynamic strokes with the right per minute while doing complex other stuff with the other four limbs. when i get up there i'l post a vid for fun.

j

ps: in other words i highly recommend the constant release technique.
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  #256  
Old 07-20-2006, 03:49 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

The spring tension on my double bass pedal is lower than the average drummer. I am very interested in learning the heel-toe technique. Do you think I should increase the spring tension?

By the way, if anyone wants to hear some crazy heel-toe used in a song, listen to "Blinded in Chains" by Avenged Sevenfold.

http://www.myspace.com/neverstop
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  #257  
Old 07-21-2006, 03:15 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

i want someone to somehow firgure out the insane double bass move in "blinded in chains" by avenged sevenfold cz itsa been bugging me for month i could play the hole song but that one part and guitar and drum traner slows it down but its sounds all robotic and sloppy wen slow-mowed.. so if anyone could tab it out .. i could play heel toe like very very good been at it lil over a year
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  #258  
Old 07-23-2006, 05:10 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

I dunno, maybe its just me but..

I believe the whole big feet makes heel toe hard thing to be just a myth.
I have size 14 feet and can do it without any problems at all.
Heres an older vid that I uploaded, can't really see much though, sorry.
http://media.putfile.com/Old-H-T-vid

I can do straight 16th's at a decent rate (although not quite as fast as Tim here).
Hardest aspect of heel toe I find, is getting a triplet down, 4 or more hits I dont really have a problem with.
I never really practice the technique though, so.

For pedals, it doesint matter what brand or model it is, mainly just how it is set up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Never Stop! woohoo!
The spring tension on my double bass pedal is lower than the average drummer. I am very interested in learning the heel-toe technique. Do you think I should increase the spring tension?
In my opinion...
I would have to say a big no to increasing the tension.
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  #259  
Old 07-25-2006, 12:59 AM
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Default Re: how to do Heel toe for biger feet

I no one ever taught me heel toe, i picked it up naturally after a few months of when i started playing set but i have always had trouble wit the swivel thing. Ur video cleared it up for me!!!!
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  #260  
Old 07-25-2006, 04:34 AM
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Default Re: how to do Heel toe for biger feet

This is from a drummer on the Derek Roddy forums--

http://hatredalive.com/nicks/heeltoevid/heeltoe7.wmv

In this case, it's more of a motion. It can be clearly seen that the heel doesn't even have to make contact with the pedal.

Thoughts?
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  #261  
Old 07-27-2006, 05:37 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

yea, i wear i size 12.5 and i just dont wear my shoes when i play and it works out fine. i just move my foot sideways just a little bit and i can play better then all my friends!
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  #262  
Old 08-08-2006, 05:00 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

ok,

being busy behind tghe drumkid for 9 years. yet only last month started to learn the heel-toe method.
Man it is hard.
In my "calm" bands i always played heel down, in metalband i did the heel up.
(not one teacher told me about heel/toe, i mentioned in my previous posts that belgium is NOT a great drumming nation, i foud out about the heel/toe only here)

So, i'm having kinda extreme difficulties "unlearning" what i've learned and getting used to H/T method
A few weeks most of my everyday practice is this hH/T
Yet i experience very very little (read : almost no) progress in my playing.
even if I speed up just a tiny little, i catch myself just playing heel up automatically.
I'm kinda becomming a bit desperate cuz it doesn't seem to work out for me.
Feels like I can't overcome the "burden" of playing 9 years heel up....

I know the techinique, i've seen all the video's, believe me, i can explain H/T method from beginning to end. that's not the problem.
What i desperetaly like to hear from you guys is: are there any tips and or tricks to "unlearn" my bad habbits (automatically go heel up) faster?

thx a bunch
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  #263  
Old 08-08-2006, 05:43 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

1. Dont think that heelup and heeldown is wrong and helltoe is right. The best woud be to be able to use them all naturally. So dont think of it as you have to unlearn what you have learned - you just have to learn something new.

2. I think that with a LOT of "heeltoe-practise-sessions" you will get it naturally in the higher tempos to, but there's no reason to have those "heeltoe-practise-sessions", unless you need it very very soon. Instead you just practise your other stuff - like new grooves with difficult sticking etc. - and then be sure to use the heeltoe every time there's a doublestroke in the bass. This way your getting used to the feeling and it will become naturall to you and you dont even "really" practise it. I use this kind of practising all the time.

3. About the "heeltoe-practise-sessions" i dont know if you go heel-toe-heel-toe.... but you can also play other exercises. This is one i learned a long time ago from a teacher and it helped my heeldown VERY much:

RH=right hand, LH= left hand, RF= right foot.
Capital letters are accents and lower case are unaccented. Here goes:

lh RH RF RF rh LH RF RF and so on.

The way you practise this exercise is to start slow and go up tempo untill you fail and then you stop and start over.



Hope this helps - it took heel of a long time to write... :)
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  #264  
Old 08-08-2006, 06:07 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

thanx a lot!


but no, i don't go H/T H/t like derrick says in his video i try to integrate it,
but from the moment i'm gotta pay attention a bit more to my hands...i neglect my heel toe method.
So no, i know heel up and/or heel down is not wrong, but it slows me down incredibly in learning this new techinique.
I think that if i explain H/T to someone who never played the drums before he/she will have a lot LESS difficulties learning H/T...

but again: Thank you, i'll integrate the exercise...
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  #265  
Old 08-08-2006, 07:31 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

try play in some thinner wool socks. i have size 11 and it works great for me.
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  #266  
Old 08-09-2006, 02:39 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beat Spector
I think that if i explain H/T to someone who never played the drums before he/she will have a lot LESS difficulties learning H/T...
Maybe you're right, but hey - cheer up!!

I forgot to say that the exercise sounds pretty cool with the LH on the high tom or snare and the RH on the floor tom.

I'm glad i could help:)
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  #267  
Old 08-11-2006, 04:44 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

after watching derrick pope's video on heel toe, (thouroughly impressed) i tried it for the

first time today... and did it. not well. but i did do it, and with a good amount of practice, i

should be able to confidentally incorporate it into my playing in no time. it was a lot

easier than i expected, just as derrick has said in the video. (here is the link for those that

don't know to which video i'm referring: http://www.drummerworld.com/Clinic/Derrick_Pope
3.html).

so yah... just thought i'd throw this post in here. with the help of that video, the heel toe

isn't out of reach for anyone. (thanks derrick- keep up the good work)

after i get this down... the moeller technique is next!
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  #268  
Old 08-14-2006, 06:38 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

You should get a Prototpye Giant step pedal the pedals are really big and Jojo Mayer uses it in the 1998 Modern. Drummer festival. Goodluck!!
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  #269  
Old 08-14-2006, 07:12 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

i grew up playing early punkrock, so being able to play doubled really fast was sorta necessary, and when i learned the heel toe, it becam easier.


i cant produce a straight series of 16ths, but doubles are so quick and easy for me. its become second nature. they sound like flams, and theyre at a point, where i can control them, theyre not random, its really nice
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  #270  
Old 08-14-2006, 10:54 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonman66
You should get a Prototpye Giant step pedal the pedals are really big and Jojo Mayer uses it in the 1998 Modern. Drummer festival. Goodluck!!
i have an axis longboard, so i'm not having any troubles. and i do have to say, i played on

my friend's kit today (it was my kit- i sold it to him), and i was not able to do heel toe due

to the length of the footboard. it was short enough so that my heel hung off of it, and not

to mention it had a toe stop. angling my foot sideways didn't help either.
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  #271  
Old 08-14-2006, 11:20 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Never Stop! woohoo!
The spring tension on my double bass pedal is lower than the average drummer. I am very interested in learning the heel-toe technique. Do you think I should increase the spring tension?
My spring tension is really high, but i've heard of others who use low tension. So, basically it's whatever is more comfortable for you. I'd try a higher tension to see if it would make a difference.
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  #272  
Old 08-14-2006, 11:24 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by radiofriendlyunitshifter
i have an axis longboard, so i'm not having any troubles. and i do have to say, i played on

my friend's kit today (it was my kit- i sold it to him), and i was not able to do heel toe due

to the length of the footboard. it was short enough so that my heel hung off of it, and not

to mention it had a toe stop. angling my foot sideways didn't help either.
The length of the footbard shouldn't be a factor in the heel-toe technique, unless you have freakishly large feet or something. I use a Gibraltar pedal with a normal length footboard with no problems. And i have size 16 feet!
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  #273  
Old 08-16-2006, 04:09 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by JIM_fear
The length of the footbard shouldn't be a factor in the heel-toe technique, unless you have freakishly large feet or something. I use a Gibraltar pedal with a normal length footboard with no problems. And i have size 16 feet!
but it was! haha. i don't have freakishly large feet (size 12), but my heel was hanging off

the end of the pedal making it impossible for the initial heel hit before the toe. if i was to

do the normal technique, my heel would hit the very edge of the footboard, and then my

toe would stomp normally. i couldn't angle my foot sideways either because my heel

would be on the bottom of the footboard in proper position, but my toes would be hanging

off the other side.
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  #274  
Old 08-17-2006, 03:29 AM
JIM_fear JIM_fear is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by radiofriendlyunitshifter
but it was! haha. i don't have freakishly large feet (size 12), but my heel was hanging off

the end of the pedal making it impossible for the initial heel hit before the toe. if i was to

do the normal technique, my heel would hit the very edge of the footboard, and then my

toe would stomp normally. i couldn't angle my foot sideways either because my heel

would be on the bottom of the footboard in proper position, but my toes would be hanging

off the other side.
Well your problem is that you when you use the heel-toe technique you don't actually use the heel of your foot to make the initial stroke but rather the ball of your foot. But, if your way works on the pedal that you normally use, then i guess i shouldn't be a problem.
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  #275  
Old 08-17-2006, 05:47 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by JIM_fear
Well your problem is that you when you use the heel-toe technique you don't actually use the heel of your foot to make the initial stroke but rather the ball of your foot. But, if your way works on the pedal that you normally use, then i guess i shouldn't be a problem.
hmmm perhaps we are talking about a different heel-toe technique? the technique i

use (as shown here: http://www.drummerworld.com/Clinic/Derrick_Pope3.html) does use

the heel.
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  #276  
Old 08-17-2006, 05:32 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Have you tried playing without shoes or try kung fu slippers they are very flat. Good luck.
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  #277  
Old 08-17-2006, 05:47 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

haha, no i don't own any kung fu slippers.

but it's a non issue, because that was on a friend's kit (and pedal).
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  #278  
Old 08-19-2006, 06:09 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Yes, there are two versions of "heel-toe." This has already been said many many many times. There's the way D. Pope does it and the way Jojo Mayer does it. I'm not completely sure which one Tim Waterson uses, but soon I'll try to post a video of the second version of "heel-toe" in which foot size doesn't matter the least bit (like the video from the Pearl forums - playing heel-toe with nothing but a big toe on the foot board). I would've already had the video up, but my brother forgot to bring his camera home from college.
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  #279  
Old 08-20-2006, 03:59 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

I've yet to really integrate that technique with the bass drum. I do however, use a heel-toe thing with the hihat when playing 2&4 jazz, a al Buddy Rich. I also use a pseudo heel-toe to do the "splash" thing with the hats.

I use a technique where I swing my foot side to side, producing a stroke with each swing with amazing speed gains. If I have time, I'll post a vid demonstrating it.

But, I'd like to pump up the arsenal a bit and I'll try the heel-toe someday.
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  #280  
Old 08-26-2006, 04:25 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

I'd like to go on a slightly different track here.

For the past few months I have been working on doubles with the feet. I have done them heel down, heel up and heel toe. I recorded my self many times.

After listening back, I realize that the sound produced by heel toe is the least MUSICAL of all three methods. The first note has a tendency to be louder and it sounds harsh to my ear. Heel up doubles sound the best.

Heel toe is definitely easier. For example, I can play heel up double strokes at 140-150 BPM yet heel toe doubles at 200 BPM +.

Yet, after listening to the playbacks and thinking about it, I have decided to concentrate on the heel-up doubles. Heel up doubles demand a certain fluidity from the ankle that no other technique develops as well. Heel toe doubles are just too "gimmicky" for me. The motion is a good exercise for the leg but the sound is terrible and you can get away with relatively sloppy technique.

Now, Tim Waterson has developed his heel-toe to such a high level that he can probably control it anyway he likes but even he says that the accent falls heavily on the first note of the heel toe double. That's one reason why he uses a Vruk attachment sometimes. It allows the second stroke to feel and sound like the first. But, that's not the way I want to go, frankly.

We all have to make choices about where to direct our efforts. I just decided that this way is best for me and I wanted to share it with u guys.
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