THE HEEL TOE THREAD

[Gravy]

Do you have a double bass? Wit a double bass, it should be relatively easy. With a single, like I have, I can make a slow triplet by kicking my heel forward against the back of the pedal and then putting the toe down after two beats. Probably not the best way, though. If anyone else has a better way, please share. :)

[JWM]

Originally Posted by Murderdolls172

I 've been have some difficulties with heel toe tring to get out triplets and differnet patterns for heel toe,(Heel Toe Method ).If theres any patterns or such for the heel toe that anybody knowswould really help. Thanks

What do you mean by triplets? The last two notes of sextuplets? (i.e. such as before a snare accent?)

For me, the "heel/toe" method is really Steve Smith's "constant release" technique. I really think it's different things for different people, and it depends on the size of your foot. For me, since I have long feet, it's dropping the heel with the leg (the heel doesn't actually make much contact with the board, but more of the plate at the end... so it's more of a "full foot" stroke) and then playing a heel up stroke with the toes.

You just have to experiment, but it's very important to start SLOWLY... and with the metronome. Once I started to get it, I realized that this is the most exciting thing ever for my feet. It adds so much of a solid and smooth quality to your playing to accent the first note of doubles, triple strokes and even longer phrases of notes.

[Josh is a cult]

i do the same thing you do JWM but i dont think thats technically heel toe..but it works!
=]

[JWM]

Originally Posted by Josh is a cult

i do the same thing you do JWM but i dont think thats technically heel toe..but it works!
=]

Absolutely.

But Tim Waterson seems to describe his heel/toe as a "constant release" thing, even going so far as to say that his entire heel isn't even on the board.

For me, heel/toe is more of a motion than anything.

But it's really a wonderful technique that is expanding the musicality of the bass drum!

[Josh is a cult]

definately
twenty...

maybe a lot of Iron Maiden can help just try to keep up with Nicko and results must show

[Jeff Almeyda]

There seem to be two different "Heel-toe" methods.

One is the Gadd, Steve Smith "constant release " thing.

The other is the heel toe double stroke a la Chris Adler. Tim Waterson seems to do this when he's going for high-speed doubles.

Can anyone shed some more light on this? Are they really two different techniques or are they just variations of the same thing?

[Murderdolls172]

yea thanks I've found a way, But yea i think theres a difference between Heel toe and constant release. I think of heel toe more of a rocking motion and constant release dosen't really have a rocking motion. But thanks for all the help

[rkettner]

I put together a simple demo video of this a few years back... but can't seem to find it on my PC anymore. Basically... I use heel-pad-toe to produce a triplet pattern. Never bothered to get it very solid (as I didn't use it in a musical context), but it definately had some promise.

[rkettner]

Originally Posted by Knevildrummer

There seem to be two different "Heel-toe" methods.

One is the Gadd, Steve Smith "constant release " thing.

The other is the heel toe double stroke a la Chris Adler. Tim Waterson seems to do this when he's going for high-speed doubles.

Can anyone shed some more light on this? Are they really two different techniques or are they just variations of the same thing?

They are essentially two different techniques... but quite blendable. Personally I don't find much use for the Steve Smith method - although it's cool for single pedal setups. The double stroke method gives much more benefit IMO. Just as the double stroke for your hands makes for more speed than trying to turn that into a continual motion - the heel-toe double stroke for the feet produces more speed (when used with two pedals).

[FloEy]

Yeah I can do everything jo jo mayer can do in that little video he has here on drummerworld and I can say that even when using a double pedal my heels are pretty much hitting that bottom. The heel does pretty much all of the work and the toes are just a natural reaction that is actually unnoticebly done.

[Raymond Bloom]

Originally Posted by FloEy

Yeah I can do everything jo jo mayer can do in that little video he has here on drummerworld and I can say that even when using a double pedal my heels are pretty much hitting that bottom. The heel does pretty much all of the work and the toes are just a natural reaction that is actually unnoticebly done.

Hey, do you have a video of you doing some heel-toe stuff? Not that I don't belive, just it would be cool to see!

[Tim Waterson]

Hey everybody
Derek Pope (THe Technique expert ) and I have been talking...OH NO....LOL
we are both getting emails and aparently some drummers are still confused about how to do heel toe if your foot is a bit bigger?
here is a quick clip showing my demonstration hope this helps to clear up the confusion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoPv1oM6vZM

Tim

[Raymond Bloom]

Great stuff, Tim! I hope this will finally clear out all these ''my feet are too big, I can't do the heel-toe!!!!''

This should be a sticky thread

[JWM]

Tim--

Thanks so much for that bro! Really fantastic explanation. Pope's is obviously a really great explanation too, but I got more from yours, especially since you talked a little about Virgil's toe tapping (he seems to really use that for the inverted doubles). I'm feeling a real sense of perspective now about the feet.

Thanks much for your contributions. You're a gift man.

BTW, nice bare foot. Makes me think of that line from Pulp Fiction, "Would you ever consider giving a guy a foot massage?"

Who wouldn't want to massage Tim's feet?

[FloEy]

sadly i dont but would I need anyway? Just a camera that can upload things on to the computer? Srry Im not the most knowledgeable on this kind of stuff.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Originally Posted by JWM

Tim--

Who wouldn't want to massage Tim's feet?

What???!!!??? Maybe you should put this in the "off-topic lounge".

[Jivi]

Great but vid as always but can you still do the same thing without an Axis pedal?

[JWM]

Originally Posted by Knevildrummer

What???!!!??? Maybe you should put this in the "off-topic lounge".

Hey, you're telling me you wouldn't like to touch the world's fastest feet?

try sliding the first two beats and then using your heel on the third beat of the triplet.

I don't use the heel/toe because my foots too big so if this doesn't work I'm sorry.

[Raymond Bloom]

Originally Posted by millerdakiller

I don't use the heel/toe because my foots too big

http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=14867

[djp132]

Originally Posted by Jivi

Great but vid as always but can you still do the same thing without an Axis pedal?

Yes. I use Eliminators and Cobras and I get the same outcome. The point to be made here is that ANYONE can do this technique regardless of foot size or brand of pedal. Study this video and his others as I believe they are the best out there for demonstrating this technique, and understand the motions. Tim is the man, he knows what he's talking about.

[Tim Waterson]

Originally Posted by djp132

Yes. I use Eliminators and Cobras and I get the same outcome. The point to be made here is that ANYONE can do this technique regardless of foot size or brand of pedal. Study this video and his others as I believe they are the best out there for demonstrating this technique, and understand the motions. Tim is the man, he knows what he's talking about.

Thanks for the props Derek.
I think beween yours and my clips drummers should have a better understanding about heel and toe.I always refer drummers to your clips as well..
Do you think my boots were BIG enough? LOL

I also started on other pedals I first tried heel toe probably by accident on a Ghost pedal or speed king I believe and then a drummer reintroduced the method to me in the early 80s and I was using the OLD grey pearl chain drive at the time.
Tim

[JWM]

I sometimes can't believe the LACK of ego displayed here by everyone...

I am so proud to be a drummer right now.

[Vic_Rattledeth]

I think Tim needs his own sticky thread. :P I'll be sure to check out your dvd when it comes out.

[JWM]

Originally Posted by Vic_Rattledeth

I think Tim needs his own sticky thread. :P I'll be sure to check out your dvd when it comes out.

Nah... let him join the line up with the rest of us =)~

We're ALL on the path, right?

Not that Tim isn't amazing though!

[Martal]

This is all fine and all but i think most people want to see how you do it with a big shoe on a NON-AXIS pedal.

thx

[TheSteve]

Originally Posted by Martal

This is all fine and all but i think most people want to see how you do it with a big shoe on a NON-AXIS pedal.

thx

What's the difference? He just explained how to do it. If you don't have a great pedal like that, then practice and build your chops instead of letting the pedal do all the work.

[Tim Waterson]

[quote=Martal]This is all fine and all but i think most people want to see how you do it with a big shoe on a NON-AXIS pedal.

thx[/QUote.
I am AXIS's #1 Ambassador, why would I want to demo other pedals?.LOL
Tim

[Martal]

Originally Posted by TheSteve

What's the difference? He just explained how to do it. If you don't have a great pedal like that, then practice and build your chops instead of letting the pedal do all the work.

Then whats the point of posting the video in the first place?

[Tim Waterson]

Originally Posted by Martal

Then whats the point of posting the video in the first place?

To help drummers But Axis and I are family.
Tim

Come on guys, Tim's doing you all a favour. Seriously. He's already said it's possible on all pedals and I for one believe him. If you don't like the fact that he uses Axis then don't rag on him about it. He's done a hell of a lot for our community...

[TheSteve]

Originally Posted by Martal

Then whats the point of posting the video in the first place?

To teach people who want to learn. Don't mind the pedal, watch his feet, that's the whole point.

[Raymond Bloom]

Originally Posted by Martal

Then whats the point of posting the video in the first place?

Why do you think this is a special technique for an Axis pedal?

Technique is just technique, as long as the pedal is decent quality and woks as a bass drum pedal should it's fine for heel-toe

[TheSteve]

Originally Posted by Raymond Bloom

Why do you think this is a special technique for an Axis pedal?

Technique is just technique, as long as the pedal is decent quality and woks as a bass drum epdal should it's fine for heel-toe

Thank you! Someone with a brain!

[G-manMET]

My toesies get shreddied up on the chain from time to time, when I do heel-toe.

[poisonpage]

I started doing the heel-toe naturally, but I have size 13 feet, so I started hitting the end or the chain (sometimes). I thought I was doing it wrong! It feels kinda weird and I can't sustain it like crazy Jojo Mayer can but the best i can do is squeeze out a 4-stroke ruff (I do the 1+ a 2 as a triplet). I can also play that crazy triplet pattern on the kick that he does in one of the videos. I had to take the toe guard off the top of my Pearl P-1002 pedal because I wasn't able to properly execute the technique. So many problems.....I then started using the slave pedal to get what I needed.

[Martal]

Originally Posted by Raymond Bloom

Why do you think this is a special technique for an Axis pedal?

Technique is just technique, as long as the pedal is decent quality and woks as a bass drum pedal should it's fine for heel-toe

I was just saying that people want to see it done on NON-Axis pedals,as evidenced by previous posts in Tim's threads

[JIM_fear]

Originally Posted by Raymond Bloom

Feet size doesn't matter, you can do heel-toe on particulary any bass drum pedal with any size of your feet if executed the right way!

That's absolutely true. I have size 16 feet and i can do it just fine so size is not a factor if done correctly.

[tambian89]

Originally Posted by JIM_fear

That's absolutely true. I have size 16 feet and i can do it just fine so size is not a factor if done correctly.

MY GOD!

Anyway: I recently tried the heel toe technique based upon Tim Waterson's short demo. Despite my first thoughts about this technique, I found the motion very easy, and it is quite easy to practice. However, I have to practice cleaning up the notes, as they become slurred and often turn into flam patterns.

I mainly use this technique for triplets with my right foot (mainly Zeppelin tunes).

- Marc