THE HEEL TOE THREAD

[Jeff Almeyda]

It's like tap dancing on the pedals.

[Blue]

Originally Posted by skippy

ok you all no what they say about guys with big feet...they cant play the heel toe thing...so i have size 12 shoes and a dw 7000 pedal anyone who can help me leard this will be greatly admired...please help.
thanks in advance


skippy

I don't know if someone has mentioned this already... but get the Axis Longboards that Chris Adler uses. He has big feet too, and he can do it on those pedals...

[beatsMcGee]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VjtMbQsUM...rch=heel%20toe

there ya go folks

[LimaBeans]

Originally Posted by beatsMcGee

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VjtMbQsUM...rch=heel%20toe

there ya go folks

Correct me if I'm not wrong, but you're NOT using the heel to produce the second stroke, correct? It appears that your heel is hitting the bass pedal in such a way that it wouldn't produce the second stroke. The ball-toe technique finally clicked with me the other day, and yes, it can be done with size 13 shoes on crappy gibraltar pedals that constantly fall apart.

[crazydrummer]

Heeey !!

Tony Royster Jr. doesn't use the heel/toe technique ! http://vicfirth.com/artists/royster.html : on this 3 awesome videos of his DVD, we can see that he use just the toe and not the heel! That's awesome and he has a very amazing speed!

Just dropping into say hello.

Hey Rick and Tim.

[djp132]

My next video (due to be posted thursday or friday) will demystify the heel toe. I promise.

Derrick
djp132@gmail.com

YES! I have been eagerly awaiting this video, I thought your next was for left hand weakness, but it's heeltoe, YES!


Also, this "buy-longboards-if-you're-feet-are-too-big" thing is getting a bit tedious. It has been proven that you don't need to fit your whole foot to do it effeciently. It's not the heel actually making the stroke. Even Jojo says it.

[k3ng]

I've read the Jojo explanation over and over and seen the vidoes over and over... but i still don't quite get it.

My first question is this though,

when you do the heel stroke, which part of the foot is touching the pedal all the way down? And what is it spose to feel like? cos most of the time i tend to have my heel crashing down on the floor...

Secondly, on the toe stroke, how does the stroke happen in order to prepare for the next heel stroke? Again, what's it spose to feel like on the pedals?

[retco]

I'm not sure if anyone has already described this in this thread, but an alternate to heel-toe is to bounce the pedal off the ball of your foot, meaning - you hit the pedal the first time with the ball of your foot - let it rebound off the drum - and hit it again with the ball of your foot. I started out playing heel-toe but naturally progressed to playing this way, I think for me it is both faster and more efficient, perhaps it will be similar for others. cheers

[retco]

I retract my last post, I went and played today to see if that was in fact what i was doing, and I found that I am still doing a heel toe motion but it is much less pronounced than it used to be - I found that I am almost slapping the pedal for the double kick with my foot almost flat against the pedal rather than rolling from heel to toe, however the momentum for the pedal on the first hit is coming mostly from the heel area of the foot while the momentum for the second hit is coming mostly from the ball area of my foot.

[CosmicKeys]

cool thread ! I'm learning a lot of stuff !

[DoubleBassUrFace]

seems like a good idea, but, how do i de-tention my springs. i have a dw 7000 double pedal.

Originally Posted by NUTHA JASON

i used to think that having more tension on springs = faster pedals but from DVDs and also at drummerlive2005 i saw that it was the opposite. since then i have detensioned my springs to the extent that my beatere swings back and forth for at least ten seconds after i leave it and voila i'm suddenly a lot faster and have more endurance. seems obvious to me now.


j


ps: sorry guys but i had to remove the link to the heel toe method as it is copyrighted and its owner specifically asked me to do it. please only post public stuff (videos that are available on quite a few sites). it is hard to tell i know, but if something has good quality sound, size and is as long as this video was then you can be sure that it is meant to be bought. who knows, one day you will want to make an instructional clip and then want paying. and on top of that we don't want Drummerworld to be sued. protect the forum please.

Congradulations all! With the last video, the heel-toe has been demystified.

Now eveyone make make their bass drum beats sound like farts!
The faster, the more fart like soung you can make. Wonderful!

[Martal]

Now,when i ask this,please dont get me wrong.Im not one of those types of people who tried doing the HeelToe for 5 seconds and said ''Cant do it,my feet are to big''.

My feet are seriously too big,i can do heel toe on my old Tama HP200 without any shoes QUITE well (Why quite and not very?Because my toes are against the chain). Now,when i try to do it with my shoes on it just becomes impossible.You know that thing that in the end of the pedal,where you supposedly put your heel when playing heeldown?Well,my foot ends there when the nose of my shoe is against the chain already.

So,thats my quetion/rant.For awhile i heard there was a video that showed a way to do it without having your foot completely on the board.Anyone know of that or any other tips on Heeltoe'ing with big feet?

Thx

[jarrod]

Ok you dont need your foor near the chain at all i can do the heal and toe with my big toe and the very back on the pedal but its not that good back there but i havnt practised it back there.

These videos are great for heal and toe and double bass

http://www.pearldrummersforum.com/sh...d.php?t=100222

[Vic_Rattledeth]

Okay so I tryed heel toe for the very first time today and....I nailed it! It's actually quite easy once you get the motion, I was doing doubles at about 200 bpm. I'm really happy....:D

[Jared_Falk]

I believe that the Heel - Toe technique is the ultimate way to develop speed, power, and endurance on the drumkit. I also believe that you should have worked through your single stroke roll before moving onto your doubles. You will probably use singles more thank doubles. It's a great tool to have in your drummers toolbox though.

[baddrumming]

Could someone please post a reply to this problem.

As many of you are probably aware there have been some video clips supplied by a drum tutor from pittsburg US concerning the Heel toe method. This is a technique i thought could improve my double stoke rolls so i set about to learn it. After a few days of practise messing around i felt comfortable with this technique at speeds of 185bpm +. However this on my electronic kit! when it comes to converting this technique to my friends acoustic kit the second stroke of the double is a lot quieter than the first hence an uneven double stroke bass drum roll. How is possible to execute an even sounding roll on the bass drum of an acoustic kit?? The Method heel toe suggests that the heel stroke is obviously more powerful than the toe stroke. This is fine on an electronic kit as the quieter sounds can also be registered and sound the same as the Heel stroke. Can Someone please share some advice towards creating an even roll on an acoustic kit. I use an IRON COBRA Double pedal by the way. THANX

[Tim Waterson]

Originally Posted by baddrumming

Could someone please post a reply to this problem.

As many of you are probably aware there have been some video clips supplied by a drum tutor from pittsburg US concerning the Heel toe method. This is a technique i thought could improve my double stoke rolls so i set about to learn it. After a few days of practise messing around i felt comfortable with this technique at speeds of 185bpm +. However this on my electronic kit! when it comes to converting this technique to my friends acoustic kit the second stroke of the double is a lot quieter than the first hence an uneven double stroke bass drum roll. How is possible to execute an even sounding roll on the bass drum of an acoustic kit?? The Method heel toe suggests that the heel stroke is obviously more powerful than the toe stroke. This is fine on an electronic kit as the quieter sounds can also be registered and sound the same as the Heel stroke. Can Someone please share some advice towards creating an even roll on an acoustic kit. I use an IRON COBRA Double pedal by the way. THANX

Just let the heel drop you dont need to slam it and roll the toes forward by raising the heel and the volume will even itself out.
Takes practice to get it even but go SLOW..
Good luck and God Bless
Tim

[CASP3Rdrummer]

is the heel toe technique done on the hihat?

[JWM]

After some investigation of the H/T method myself by way of the Pope vid and Tim's WFD vid (and others circulating on YouTube), I'm currently unable to do it with my current DW pedal. I have a size 11 foot, and even at an angle I cannot get enough leverage to properly execute the heel stroke. I'll have to wait until I get a longboard.

For the time being, I'm using the Steve Smith "controlled release" approach, which Pope also describes. It's not quite H/T, but it is the natural motion for accenting a downstroke or first note of a double, etc. In fact, I find that it's the obvious motion to make for playing first note accents, which helps for dynamic bass drum playing (I'm currently only using single pedal). It ends up mirroring the motion of the hands... almost the Moeller technique for the feet (whereas H/T might be the feet equivalent of the freehand technique). For controlled release, the toes essentially stay on the footboard, in a "resting" position as the leg drops for the first accented note (which I find to almost be a "flat" stroke). I've seen exercises for this that notate "L" for leg stroke and "U" or "T" for heel up/toe stroke.

Any thoughts, Tim?

[JWM]

Originally Posted by CASP3Rdrummer

is the heel toe technique done on the hihat?

Derek Roddy has an example of it on his site.

It's pretty cool...

derekroddy.com

[JWM]

BTW... I've also been putting some thought into a sort of "half stroke," which is a stream of toe strokes in the heel up position. I find myself doing this for the hand/foot blast of singles where you play 16ths or 8th triplets with one hand and then play the bass drum off of it (the blast beat basically). Since I'm doing maybe one bar of it, I do steady half strokes with the hand and foot for a "flat" stream of notes.

[CASP3Rdrummer]

Originally Posted by JWM

Derek Roddy has an example of it on his site.

It's pretty cool...

derekroddy.com

where? i cant find it . can you please post a direct link of it?

[Tim Waterson]

Originally Posted by JWM

After some investigation of the H/T method myself by way of the Pope vid and Tim's WFD vid (and others circulating on YouTube), I'm currently unable to do it with my current DW pedal. I have a size 11 foot, and even at an angle I cannot get enough leverage to properly execute the heel stroke. I'll have to wait until I get a longboard.

For the time being, I'm using the Steve Smith "controlled release" approach, which Pope also describes. It's not quite H/T, but it is the natural motion for accenting a downstroke or first note of a double, etc. In fact, I find that it's the obvious motion to make for playing first note accents, which helps for dynamic bass drum playing (I'm currently only using single pedal). It ends up mirroring the motion of the hands... almost the Moeller technique for the feet (whereas H/T might be the feet equivalent of the freehand technique). For controlled release, the toes essentially stay on the footboard, in a "resting" position as the leg drops for the first accented note (which I find to almost be a "flat" stroke). I've seen exercises for this that notate "L" for leg stroke and "U" or "T" for heel up/toe stroke.

Any thoughts, Tim?

heres a quick vid I made of Heel toe motion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzXH4lXHmwM
My toes do stay on the footboard...
Hope this helps
Tim

[JWM]

Originally Posted by CASP3Rdrummer

where? i cant find it . can you please post a direct link of it?

http://www.derekroddy.com/Dereks_Lin.../HiHatDemo.wmv

Cheers bud...

[Jared_Falk]

Great vid Tim! Those Axis pedals are great for that. I can play that way on my Axis pedals...but have difficulty doing it on my Yamaha or Iron Cobra pedals. I'll turn my foot sideways, but it doesn't sound consistent.

[CASP3Rdrummer]

Originally Posted by Tim Waterson

heres a quick vid I made of Heel toe motion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzXH4lXHmwM
My toes do stay on the footboard...
Hope this helps
Tim

ahem the video is nice but THATS TOO TOUGH for me :(

[JWM]

Originally Posted by Tim Waterson

heres a quick vid I made of Heel toe motion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzXH4lXHmwM
My toes do stay on the footboard...
Hope this helps
Tim

Tim--

Thanks very much for that. I just have to say man... your openness in the community in helping us with our feet has been a real blessing...

After watching the vid, I feel that that is essentially what I'm doing. I find it easier NOT to start with the beater against the head personally, but like you described, I am getting that initial second hit as well... so that's a good sign.

What I'm also getting is that you're NOT doing an actual note with the HEEL... i.e. the heel isn't an isolated stroke like Pope describes it (and I'm going to trust yours as you have the record!). Your toes stay on the board the whole time. I couldn't really see the length of the board, but when you backed your foot up, it actually looks as though your heel ISN'T on the board, am I correct? If that's the case, then this proves that the heel in H/T is more of a MOTION rather than an actual stroke? And the toes are in fact doing every stroke?

[baddrumming]

Thank You Tim

I feel very humbled to have had you answer my question (the man with the worlds fastest feet). Just being able to communicate with you i feel is an honour. So once again thank you.


P.S The video was also a massive help.

[Tim Waterson]

Originally Posted by JWM

Tim--

Thanks very much for that. I just have to say man... your openness in the community in helping us with our feet has been a real blessing...

After watching the vid, I feel that that is essentially what I'm doing. I find it easier NOT to start with the beater against the head personally, but like you described, I am getting that initial second hit as well... so that's a good sign.

What I'm also getting is that you're NOT doing an actual note with the HEEL... i.e. the heel isn't an isolated stroke like Pope describes it (and I'm going to trust yours as you have the record!). Your toes stay on the board the whole time. I couldn't really see the length of the board, but when you backed your foot up, it actually looks as though your heel ISN'T on the board, am I correct? If that's the case, then this proves that the heel in H/T is more of a MOTION rather than an actual stroke? And the toes are in fact doing every stroke?

This is the part that confuses drummers.
YES My HEEL is making the stroke.
when I slide past the footplate the upper part of my heel still makes contact.
when I do my WFD doubles the heels are controlling the strokes and the toes just remain stationary.
At the begiining of the clip I am rocking me heel and toe in a constant release style similar to Steve Smith although Steve Smith goes Toe first and then heel.
Freddie told me and he was very adament about Steve doing it that way?
Whatever works..
Hope this explains the confusion.
God Bless
Tim

[JWM]

Originally Posted by Tim Waterson

This is the part that confuses drummers.
YES My HEEL is making the stroke.
when I slide past the footplate the upper part of my heel still makes contact.
when I do my WFD doubles the heels are controlling the strokes and the toes just remain stationary.
At the begiining of the clip I am rocking me heel and toe in a constant release style similar to Steve Smith although Steve Smith goes Toe first and then heel.
Freddie told me and he was very adament about Steve doing it that way?
Whatever works..
Hope this explains the confusion.
God Bless
Tim

Okay... that does clear up the confusion. It feels "officially" cleared up now that you've said it!

Throughout my practice routine today, I've been finding that the upper part of my heel makes contact as well... as my toes stay stationary. And it also seems to be the constant release style. There does seem to be a few different interpretations as to the mechanics, but I'm quite sure I'm on the right path. The toes thing seems to be the real key. Maybe I can post a vid soon and you can take a look?

But keep up the great work and thanks again for your generosity...

Blessings,
Johnny

[JWM]

Originally Posted by baddrumming

Thank You Tim

I feel very humbled to have had you answer my question (the man with the worlds fastest feet). Just being able to communicate with you i feel is an honour. So once again thank you.


P.S The video was also a massive help.

I'd like to second this!

[timfel]

Hi Derrick,

Hope you're getting better. Came across your heel-toe video yesterday and thought it was fantastic. It had a perfect answer to a problem (getting fast doubles) that I've had for ages, which hasn't really got much better despite a lot of practice. Your method made perfect sense and your teaching style is superb, thank you very much.

Full of enthusiasm, I rushed to my kit to try this new method which I was convinced was the answer to all my prayers. Got sat down at the kit, everything in place, ran through it in my head, all ready to practice this new motion.

I raised my heel as instructed, dropped it for the first stroke... nothing. Nada! My heel hit the heelplate which is not hinged and made not a sound - the pedal didn't operate. Toe was fine, but the heel was silent. I thought this must be what all those guys mean when they say their feet are too big. Tried ramming my toes into the chain drive, but that didn't sound right. I thought all those guys who said it didn't work unless you had small feet must be right! Very disappointed, I retired for the night.

And then I remembered to trust you! You said it didn't matter what size your feet are so I thought about it and went back again. I found it - eureka! When you drop your heel, you're not actually operating the pedal with your heel as I mistakenly thought, but the action of dropping your heel causes your foot to drop and the pedal is operated actually with the middle of the foot. So your heel does hit the floor and that doesn't make a noise, but your foot presses the pedal and that does. I think the name is misleading - I was taking it literally trying to operate the pedal with my heel, rather than feeling the motion and almost letting the pedal operate itself. Having grasped that, it all seems to work very well now!

Would you agree with my findings? Maybe this will help all those people who think their feet are too big. There's a lesson there - trust the teacher!

[JWM]

Originally Posted by timfel

Hi Derrick,

Hope you're getting better. Came across your heel-toe video yesterday and thought it was fantastic. It had a perfect answer to a problem (getting fast doubles) that I've had for ages, which hasn't really got much better despite a lot of practice. Your method made perfect sense and your teaching style is superb, thank you very much.

Full of enthusiasm, I rushed to my kit to try this new method which I was convinced was the answer to all my prayers. Got sat down at the kit, everything in place, ran through it in my head, all ready to practice this new motion.

I raised my heel as instructed, dropped it for the first stroke... nothing. Nada! My heel hit the heelplate which is not hinged and made not a sound - the pedal didn't operate. Toe was fine, but the heel was silent. I thought this must be what all those guys mean when they say their feet are too big. Tried ramming my toes into the chain drive, but that didn't sound right. I thought all those guys who said it didn't work unless you had small feet must be right! Very disappointed, I retired for the night.

And then I remembered to trust you! You said it didn't matter what size your feet are so I thought about it and went back again. I found it - eureka! When you drop your heel, you're not actually operating the pedal with your heel as I mistakenly thought, but the action of dropping your heel causes your foot to drop and the pedal is operated actually with the middle of the foot. So your heel does hit the floor and that doesn't make a noise, but your foot presses the pedal and that does. I think the name is misleading - I was taking it literally trying to operate the pedal with my heel, rather than feeling the motion and almost letting the pedal operate itself. Having grasped that, it all seems to work very well now!

Would you agree with my findings? Maybe this will help all those people who think their feet are too big. There's a lesson there - trust the teacher!

What you described was also my experience with a size 11 foot on a standard DW pedal. There's no way for my heel to actually play the pedal itself (at least my entire heel). And as you also described--

...but the action of dropping your heel causes your foot to drop and the pedal is operated actually with the middle of the foot.

That's essentially what I find myself doing. Or it also may still be a toe stroke, but a "downstroke" movement for it with the middle portion of the foot making contact with the pedal as well (it almost feels like a "flat" stroke to me!). Some seem to define that as the "constant release" technique that Steve Smith is known for using (and I believe JoJo Mayer does this as well). Tim Waterson's explanation seems to almost fall somewhere in between.

But this much I know... my initial goal was to be able to accent the first note of a double or triple stroke (such as 1e and/or 1e&) with ease. As I started working on it with a metronome (and this BEFORE I even knew all that much about the heel/toe method), I found myself instinctively making what seems to be the constant release movement. I keep the toes on the pedal the whole time, drop the heel for the first accented note and then play a heel up stroke for the second unaccented note (which sets me up to bring the heel down again). But again, the toes stay on the pedal the whole time, and the heel is making contact with the plate, not the pedal itself (although a bit of the top of the heel may be coming into contact... but it's certainly not a FULL stroke with the heel itself).

Whatever method this is specifically, I can say that it is enabling me to accent the first note of a double or triple stroke with great ease. And that's all I really care about now, because I'm kind of getting a little tired of all the particulars of the method/technique! :-)~

[AllTheCoolNamesAreTaken]

Okay, so I have to know: does my freak size 13 foot condemn me to singles for my whole life? Or is the Axis longboard big enough for that?

[Raymond Bloom]

Originally Posted by AllTheCoolNamesAreTaken

Okay, so I have to know: does my freak size 13 foot condemn me to singles for my whole life? Or is the Axis longboard big enough for that?

Feet size doesn't matter, you can do heel-toe on particulary any bass drum pedal with any size of your feet if executed the right way!

[jeanke]

Originally Posted by MysteRMagnuM

Hi

Does anyone have a video or something that shows the proper way to do the heel toe method for playing the bass drum?
I'm not sure that the way that i am trying it is the proper way.

Any help will be much appreciated(sp).

if you look in the drum clinic of this site you can find videos of derrick pope explainig verry well how it works

[Murderdolls172]

I 've been have some difficulties with heel toe tring to get out triplets and differnet patterns for heel toe,(Heel Toe Method ).If theres any patterns or such for the heel toe that anybody knowswould really help. Thanks