THE HEEL TOE THREAD

[Raymond Bloom]

Originally Posted by Tim Waterson

\JUST to corect the confusion...
but I have been teaching drummers Quite a while now and most get it from the WFD trailer....LOL
The HEEL in my videos is A FULL downstroke and the Toe is also a FULL upstroke
after you get the speed up the heel controls ALL the motion as the toe stays put this is why I coined the term Toe down strokes exactly the opposite of heel down....
hope this clears up the confusion.
Yes after you get the technique down you can raise you heel to control the bounce and then you are doing heel up controlled doubles.
The next phase is ta actually tap the doubles with your foot Like Virgil....
God Bless and Good Luck
Tim
www.timwaterson.com

I guess we just didn't understand each other. What I ment is that the heel isn't making a stroke, it's the movement that makes the stroke, isn't it? The heel doesn't need to touch the footboard, this is what most of people are confused of, they think that the heel-toe technique is just heel-toe-heel-toe etc that's why there are so many people bragging about ''my feet are too big... etc''
I like to call the heel stroke as ''toe downstroke'' because even with the heel stroke, the surface of the foot that is in contact with the footboard when doing the heel stroke is the toe!

I hope you get my idea, I know we are talking about the same thing but whether my english knowledges (english is not my native language) or something else makes a confusion! :D

Anyway I like the way Jojo Mayer explains the heel-toe technique (this is what I'm trying to say :D link: http://www.jojomayer.com/html/faq_.html#PEDAL) :

''The basic idea is to generate the first "down"- stroke launched from your heel up position, generated from your knee, not your toes (important!).Followed by a 2nd " up"- stroke, generated by the calf. So your leg goes :
up-down, up-down,(bam-bam, bam-bam..).

It LOOKS's like a heel toe action but really it is kne (heel) -toe. That's the secret !''

[Raymond Bloom]

About seating, I liked what Jojo Mayer sayed at clinics, he allways talks about ballance points in drumsticks, arms, wrists, feet, legs etc, but about seating, he says that he haven't found the right ballance point and is still looking for the right seating position :D

Anyway, I think you should start from the basic position (legs paralel to the ground). When you get good at doing heel-toe, then you can start to experiment what is the best seating position, height etc It's like you can't play a paraddidle fill without actually learingn the paraddidle :-)

[jarrod]

It also helps if u can get a bit of power into your heal and toe because then u will get a littel rebound from the bass drum and leave your for it to rebound back of onto the bass durm again if u can understand that..... well it works for me althought i am not the best at the hole thing i am working on it...

[ReX]

Maybe it's me (it usually is...), but I can't find any video or anything else in the WFD site that demonstrates this. Can anyone clarify how this can be found?

thx and sry.

[drumz4eva]

Originally Posted by Thinshells

IIRc Steve Smiths "History of the US beat" shows both heel toe and heel up.

i have steve smiths video, and im wondering is that the technique tim waterson uses, and the one everyone is talkignt about?
or is that a different one?

[drumz4eva]

hey, i was just wonderin if anyone has seen steve smiths video, (history of the us beat, and drum preformance ) In the video he deminstrates a kind of heel toe technique, is that the technique that is used like commenly in wfd, and theres alot of threads on?

or different?

[Tim Waterson]

Originally Posted by drumz4eva

hey, i was just wonderin if anyone has seen steve smiths video, (history of the us beat, and drum preformance ) In the video he deminstrates a kind of heel toe technique, is that the technique that is used like commenly in wfd, and theres alot of threads on?

or different?

DRumz4eva
do a search Heel toe is the easiest way to go fast BUT,
Steve does Toe- Heel strokes that freddie Gruber showed him to get a more consistant sound.takes a LOT more disclipline to get right.
The WFD is ALL singles but we have had drummers do heel toe in the pre lims for fun and to try and beat my 1407.NO prizes just bragging rights if you do.
Good Luck
Tim

[drumz4eva]

cool, but if you do master steve smiths technique, is it just the same as the others, just alot cleaner? or what?

[(no-logo)]

proper heel toe encorporates one downstroke of the leg obviously,
but as a starting point to learning this technique, should one 'drop' the leg down to create the first stroke, combining with the toes or should one use purely toes?
im worried about developing wrong technique.

also, is it wrong to drop the heel too much to get that second stroke?

how would you guys explain how you do this, is it relaxed for the first stroke and then tensed to get the second?

i know there are similar right foot threads but they are all too vague.

[FloEy]

dude if it werks for you it works! I can do quads and straight sixteenths with one foot and if I have the wrong technique I can honestly care less.The same goes for the hands. People say that the fulcrum should have your index and thumb close together. For me I have my thumbs out. There is more then one way to hold a stick and there is more then one way to play a pedal. The one thing i will tell you is that there should be no tension with the heel toe. You should not be killing yourself to get the doubles going.

[tambian89]

My cousin's drum instructor has a technique which he showed me where he lifts and lowers his leg at the ankle, and each time he lifts or lowers his leg, he does a triplet. He is ridiculously fast. Anyone know of this or how to do it?

- Marc

[intooder]

Originally Posted by Tim Waterson

DRumz4eva
do a search Heel toe is the easiest way to go fast BUT,
Steve does Toe- Heel strokes that freddie Gruber showed him to get a more consistant sound.takes a LOT more disclipline to get right.
The WFD is ALL singles but we have had drummers do heel toe in the pre lims for fun and to try and beat my 1407.NO prizes just bragging rights if you do.
Good Luck
Tim

Tim, I thought you could use the Heel-Toe and still play singles. Is this not WFD-acceptable? Along the same lines, is the Moeller not acceptable for the Battle of the Hands?

[Tim Waterson]

Originally Posted by (no-logo)

proper heel toe encorporates one downstroke of the leg obviously,
but as a starting point to learning this technique, should one 'drop' the leg down to create the first stroke, combining with the toes or should one use purely toes?
im worried about developing wrong technique.

also, is it wrong to drop the heel too much to get that second stroke?

how would you guys explain how you do this, is it relaxed for the first stroke and then tensed to get the second?

i know there are similar right foot threads but they are all too vague.

There seems to be some confusion when drummers talk about heeltoe
Everyone has there OWN way to explain it.LOL.
For MY heel strokes to get a doubles or triple I simply drop my heel and control how many notes I want.I leave my toes planted as I can control the motion a lot longer and reach greater speeds if I DO NOT lift my toes.
IMHO you do NOT need tension on either the up or downstroke.
Hope this helps and Good Luck
Tim
do this for

[Tim Waterson]

Originally Posted by intooder

Tim, I thought you could use the Heel-Toe and still play singles. Is this not WFD-acceptable? Along the same lines, is the Moeller not acceptable for the Battle of the Hands?

YES Heel toe can be used as singles if it is R heel L heel Rtoe Ltoe
I do this and have unofficially run over 1030 more than once at home so it does NOT count.
I have seen a few guys do this in prelims as well.
I'll speak to BOO on this.
As long as WE can see you are not doubling it should be OK
Tim

[BigSexyPanda]

Originally Posted by BigSexyPanda

well i already posted this, but I saw the Tiger Bill video and I was wondering if that was about all there was to it. Besides all the little things you have to work on like exact positioning and of course practicing, but I was wondering if thats about all there is to it.

I also read the jojo mayer article, so if i just follow these things and practice thats about it?

[DreamTheater4life]

Could someone please post a video of how to do the heel toe techinque? I've read descriptions but i still can't figure it out.

[drummer_wid_pulse]

Here i did a video while back trying to help a friend online

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6ZmskKcbFa8

[dawg]

heel to toe,dozie doh, swing her around and let er' go!!! eeehhaa!!!

[drummer_wid_pulse]

Originally Posted by dawg

heel to toe,dozie doh, swing her around and let er' go!!! eeehhaa!!!

hahaha your funny....???

[Backwards Marathon]

hey nice post eh. 20 characters hehe

[DreamTheater4life]

Originally Posted by drummer_wid_pulse

Here i did a video while back trying to help a friend online

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6ZmskKcbFa8

"Hello, you either have JavaScript turned off or an old version of Macromedia's Flash Player, click here to get the latest flash player."

That's what it says...do you think your could upload it on putfile? I can watch everything on that. That is, if it's not too much to ask.

[DreamTheater4life]

I tried to download the new flash player but it wont let me :-(

[ZZ Thorn]

Real good video. Thanks a lot!

[DreamTheater4life]

ok now i downloaded the new flash player plug in thing and now it won't let me watch anything at all.

[tidge87]

drummer-wid-pulse, um with heel toe, do you just go really fast like in a continuous pattern like sixteenth notes? Or do you just play at the highest triplets in a row? Cause i can only do heel toe at the fastest like 2 hits.

[Redhead]

View the video in IE.

[DreamTheater4life]

Originally Posted by Redhead

View the video in IE.

What's IE? I really want to watch this video! It's making me angry!!!!

[xkevinx]

it's always said that it doesn't matter how big your feet are, you can still do heel toe. i recently upgraded my axis single with the longboard, but before that i would just angle my foot a bit off to the side (toes pointing off the pedal away from the snare) to fit the whole foot on there. it's easy to get discouraged when working on heel toe (im still not great but i know i'll get there soon). when you first start you're using different muscles than when just playing heel up or heel down, so you need to take time to develop those as much as the ones you commonly use.

[LimaBeans]

Originally Posted by DreamTheater4life

What's IE? I really want to watch this video! It's making me angry!!!!

IE = Internet Explorer

Come on guys, this is a neat trick, but it does not sound natural. You are just bouncing off the heel pressure and rebounding with the toesie woesies. The natural bass resonance is missing due to the fact that the front head is tensioned when its hit the second time. No wonder why the bass is way muffled with a pillow or other tricks so the hits don't sound different. Try this with a bass drum with no muffling and you will see what I mean.No different from that one handed roll trick off the rim. Make the snare quieter and you will hear the damn rim shot.

A real drummer does not have to impress with tricks.
Just play the dammed thing the best you can with out the tricks then you will be impressive.

Its funny how we had those "great drummers" here peddling there stupid DVD's with their infomercial type websites. "If you buy now, we'll discount these 2 DVDs!!.

Give me a break.

Originally Posted by drummer_wid_pulse

Here i did a video while back trying to help a friend online

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6ZmskKcbFa8

Ok, now try this on a real bass drum with no muffling and post the video and sound, I dare you!

What are those, synnth bass drums you are playing there?

[FloEy]

Originally Posted by Tim Waterson

YES Heel toe can be used as singles if it is R heel L heel Rtoe Ltoe
I do this and have unofficially run over 1030 more than once at home so it does NOT count.
I have seen a few guys do this in prelims as well.
I'll speak to BOO on this.
As long as WE can see you are not doubling it should be OK
Tim

Tim I have tried doing it that way but when i go to hit with my heel i kind of get a double instead of a single. I can do jo jo mayers stuff and I can do doubles fine but this single method isnt working out too well. Any ideas? thx

[rkettner]

Originally Posted by fixmejesus

The natural bass resonance is missing due to the fact that the front head is tensioned when its hit the second time.

If this were the case - then wouldn't any fast strokes do the same thing? The Heel-Toe Technique can be played without burying the beater... and thus it is just a factor of speed that would do what you are saying. I play the method with an unmuffled drum head, and it sounds completely normal to me.

In addition... if I want to bury the beater - I can get a different dynamic sound by doing so. Sometimes that option is nice.

[rkettner]

Originally Posted by Tim Waterson

DRumz4eva
do a search Heel toe is the easiest way to go fast BUT,
Steve does Toe- Heel strokes that freddie Gruber showed him to get a more consistant sound.takes a LOT more disclipline to get right.
The WFD is ALL singles but we have had drummers do heel toe in the pre lims for fun and to try and beat my 1407.NO prizes just bragging rights if you do.
Good Luck
Tim

Tim,

Is your original 1407 done with singles or doubles? I remember you mentioning you were upwards of 1500 un-officially. Have you had a chance to record that since?

[Tim Waterson]

Originally Posted by FloEy

Tim I have tried doing it that way but when i go to hit with my heel i kind of get a double instead of a single. I can do jo jo mayers stuff and I can do doubles fine but this single method isnt working out too well. Any ideas? thx

The heel toe singlestrokes is YES harder for most to grasp.
But I have a student who does this with great control and I recieve lots of emails so I will showing CLOSEUPS on the NEW dvd.Hopefully ready in May.
I'll keep you posted..
Tim

[deltadrummer1]

I've got the heel toe technique down for the most part, but once I get done playing, the top of my foot hurts. Am I doing something wrong? I have noticed that I do tense up when playing the technique...but is that the reason for the pain in my foot?

[Tim Waterson]

Originally Posted by deltadrummer1

I've got the heel toe technique down for the most part, but once I get done playing, the top of my foot hurts. Am I doing something wrong? I have noticed that I do tense up when playing the technique...but is that the reason for the pain in my foot?

Tensing up is causing stress on your foot slow down relax and bulid up your speed in increments of 10bpm
Tim

[Class A Drummer]

just wondering, is the heel toe method suppose to be "double stroking" with a bass drum? or is it possible to actually double stroke by hitting the head with the beater only once.

[cdawg_2010]

Originally Posted by Class A Drummer

or is it possible to actually double stroke by hitting the head with the beater only once.

if you hit it once it would be a single because it hits one time. the heel toe is hitting with the heel and bringing your toe down for the double stroke