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  #361  
Old 05-13-2007, 05:52 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

I have only been playing my new Pearl double bass pedal for about a week and it came naturally to me, but when i tried heel toe, it was really hard to get the hang of. Now i can do it but with a couple inconveniences. First, my toe beats are much louder than my heel beats. How can i make them all sound the same and smooth? Next, i am having trouble keeping the same tempo for more than several seconds. Any suggestions?
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  #362  
Old 05-18-2007, 12:22 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

4 all heel towers..endurance,i find it easy to play with vruk heal attache..it utelises the effectivnece more efficiant,make's for an smoth heal rebound instead of an hard one,since i play barefoot most of the time ,it more of an comfort..
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  #363  
Old 05-21-2007, 04:21 AM
Damian Blake Damian Blake is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

I for the past 20 years have been a heel up player. I play double kiks and I use the ball of my toe to dance around the footboard for attain different dynamics, speed, and sensitivity. When I am doing intricate beats other than a steady double kick flow, I tend to lean into my kit to give it a bit more of an attack and not fall on my butt at the same time losing my balance. :)
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  #364  
Old 05-25-2007, 04:15 PM
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Default Heel toe technique: Heel,Heel-Toe,Toe

I once used to practise the heel toe technique like this:
Heel toe on one foot (2 strokes) and then on the other foot Heel Toe (2 strokes)

After sometime, I find that playing the heel toe technique as doubles really sounds like crap, so I've been wondering if anyone here ever played the heel toe technique as single strokes?

Like this:

1-Right Foot: Heel stroke;
2-Left Foot: Heel stroke;
3-Right Foot: Toe stroke;
4-Left Foot: Toe stroke.

I haven't tried the heel toe like this yet because I only came up with the idea today.
But I think that maybe in this way of playing the heel toe technique, we'll get not only fast heel toe strokes, but powerfull.

Has anyone tried this?
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  #365  
Old 05-25-2007, 04:29 PM
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Default Re: Heel toe technique: Heel,Heel-Toe,Toe

Of course you can, it's just a technique... I liken it to the mueller for the foot. Obviously it sounds different if you alternate than if you double the double independently but that is not bad just different.
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  #366  
Old 06-01-2007, 02:07 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

double swiss tripplett ;) bassdrum roll

try this

1 right foot heel down
2 left foot heel down
3 right too down
4 left too down
5 right foot while to presed down pivot the toe over the pivit point foreward to make an extra note
6 same witht left

enyoy!
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  #367  
Old 06-04-2007, 04:43 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Good advice, I was breifly shown the toe heel technique (as seen by Tony Jnr?), but I have learnt the heel toe one recently, I found that due to size ten feet and a relativly small pedal plate at one point my toes were between the chain, but I have realised I could move my foot back slightly and play almost to one side of the pedal..

I would like to learn the toe heel now, as watching videos there seems to be much less movement than the wave motion that occurs in the Heel toe.
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  #368  
Old 06-10-2007, 12:00 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD= really "MID FOOT TOO" ;)

fore those drummer whith a low budget...and big feet..
wich i mean buy the vruk....

ore..

place a high densety fome block/rubber u find mostley in inleysoles in schous to cussion the impakt...make sure it travels more than 2cm

under the heel section of youre pedal..

this way the heel toe rocking motion is aplifide by the foot ,infact it acts allmost like the vruk..
intead of beating the floor whith youre heel ,this motion is picked up by the coussening effect of the rubber ,and is nott really heel toe,but toe mid foot!

enjoy..
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  #369  
Old 06-11-2007, 11:56 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

hello fellow drummes!! 3 months ...hmm maybe little bit more i was think i really dont have any chance doing this technique. yesterday i watched this video (which might be already posted and if so , sorry then) http://youtube.com/watch?v=SSKS9a9NuPc . first of all it remined me a feet move i was doing very often in classroom while i was bored. also this video shows you in a slow motion the normal foot movement of heel toe technique. so anyway i jut wanted to point that nothing is imposible...just wants you to sacrifice some time to get things working !!

cheers
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  #370  
Old 06-15-2007, 12:20 PM
kamikaze_drummer kamikaze_drummer is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

hi, everyone
just to say i have UK size 13 feet and yes i use the heel toe tech'
i simply do not ware shoes when i am playing
and if you find you cant play with no shoes get your self a double peddle
thanks
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  #371  
Old 07-03-2007, 04:23 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by skippy View Post
ok you all no what they say about guys with big feet...they cant play the heel toe thing...so i have size 12 shoes and a dw 7000 pedal anyone who can help me leard this will be greatly admired...please help.
thanks in advance


skippy
Play bare foot or with the Puma Speed Cats! I use the peal eliminator powershifter 1 billion and a half wit the red cams. I removed the toe guards so i can get my foot up there too.

Bring down the heel HARD! that the only way you're ever going to get a clean sound double or triple or a consistent 16 or 8th pattern with one foot like.

you can perform the heel toe without your heel even being on the pedal. It's all in the amount of force thrown from the heel, the ball on your will still toss the beater in for a hard strike then when you stop forward it'll still have a strong impact!

Good luck broseph!
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  #372  
Old 07-10-2007, 12:11 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by brennenlesser View Post
Play bare foot or with the Puma Speed Cats! I use the peal eliminator powershifter 1 billion and a half wit the red cams. I removed the toe guards so i can get my foot up there too.

Bring down the heel HARD! that the only way you're ever going to get a clean sound double or triple or a consistent 16 or 8th pattern with one foot like.

you can perform the heel toe without your heel even being on the pedal. It's all in the amount of force thrown from the heel, the ball on your will still toss the beater in for a hard strike then when you stop forward it'll still have a strong impact!

Good luck broseph!
PLEASE do not advise drummers to bring down their heel hard this can lead to injury..
There are plenty of videos that show you how to control the notes with your foot..
Tim
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  #373  
Old 07-19-2007, 12:34 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Waterson View Post
PLEASE do not advise drummers to bring down their heel hard this can lead to injury..
There are plenty of videos that show you how to control the notes with your foot..
Tim
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kick ass!! its tim waterson!! you rule dude!!! **high five**
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  #374  
Old 07-24-2007, 02:34 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD-vruk...

are there any other vruk users out there ,beside's well known T.Waterson?

i dont get many hits on google,youtube etc....

howcome?
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  #375  
Old 07-26-2007, 10:17 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

I love the heel toe method as much as I can it's great for certain things to get the BD to come thru cleaner or more specific at higher rates of speed. way better results with qwik doubles, my first teacher showed me basic heel toe to roll your foot so to speak etc he said it gives a more "solid" sound than toe down at higher rates of speed and I think he was right...I also remember it was really discouraging at first, I think the key is to spend a little time messing with it every practice, to not give up on it or burn out on it, eventually youll find that spot to roll in, and the goal is NOT to slam your heel so much as rather you try to use the point of force coming in first with your foot like the angle of a plane landing etc then using the traditional toe down move on the second stroke etc.
cool stuff and interesting posts here thanks!
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  #376  
Old 08-11-2007, 05:25 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

i like to work with different pedal tensions, it can really help. when i first started heel toe i could only pull off on a cranked pedal but the more i practiced i moved to loser and loser.
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  #377  
Old 08-15-2007, 08:25 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by svkelleher10 View Post
I have only been playing my new Pearl double bass pedal for about a week and it came naturally to me, but when i tried heel toe, it was really hard to get the hang of. Now i can do it but with a couple inconveniences. First, my toe beats are much louder than my heel beats. How can i make them all sound the same and smooth? Next, i am having trouble keeping the same tempo for more than several seconds. Any suggestions?
I've been struggling with the heel toe technique for a while now so don't feel bad. Best wishes on your quest to get good at it.
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  #378  
Old 08-16-2007, 04:35 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Waterson View Post
From what I have observed VIRGIL does what is called constant release at slower speeds....
BUT at higher speeds you'll see his feet slide ....and you'll you'll see on some vids his heels almost touch the footboard...
you play the first note heel down and the 2nd heel up except he starts LRR LL RR and so on you can learn these by letting your heel come down but eventually you just raise your heells of the footboard..sometimes STEVE SMITH explains the constant release the best on his DVD
start slow as this takes time and patience to develope.
Good luck
Tim
Tim,

I'm sure this has been posted, but I didn't want to go through all 11 pages of this thread!! Your youtube clip opened my eyes. I was doing it all wrong (trying to make the first hit by pushing my heel), but that short clip was very enlightening, and I was able to get a steady beat going within an hour or so. Thanks!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzXH4...elated&search=
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  #379  
Old 09-24-2007, 06:13 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by NUTHA JASON View Post

my target is to play 360 even dynamic strokes with the right per minute while doing complex other stuff with the other four limbs.
four way separation while accenting steady 1/4 notes with the right @90bpm? my hats off to ya
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  #380  
Old 10-12-2007, 03:34 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

hi this is my 1st post. I play with either a ludwig ghost, or a speed king. I have to say, the ghost is the most XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXg awesome pedal I have ever played. I play heel/toe all the time, I actually learned it on drummerworld from a derrick pope video- if you all know who that is...it's simple heel, toe. shotgun a beer. heel, toe. repeat. the trick is not using it. and then XXXXXXXXXX using it just at the right time. texture. anyway...

Last edited by NUTHA JASON; 11-06-2007 at 02:53 PM.
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  #381  
Old 10-19-2007, 10:05 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Hey there! SOrry but this has just come to me, and would like to clear it up. (H/T n00b)


The method is Heel then toe on rite foot then heel then toe on left foot, repeat?
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  #382  
Old 10-21-2007, 04:34 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valecent View Post
Hey there! SOrry but this has just come to me, and would like to clear it up. (H/T n00b)


The method is Heel then toe on rite foot then heel then toe on left foot, repeat?
Right heel, right toe, followed by left heel, left,toe will be heel toe doubles...
R heel L heel,
right toe, left toe will develope into heel toe singles...
you can also do this toe first then the heel ..
Tim
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  #383  
Old 10-22-2007, 06:19 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Waterson View Post
Right heel, right toe, followed by left heel, left,toe will be heel toe doubles...
R heel L heel,
right toe, left toe will develope into heel toe singles...
you can also do this toe first then the heel ..
Tim
With singles, I like doing R heel - Left toe - R toe - Left heel ... it's groovy.

And then of course there's doing sextuplets which I like doing as--

R heel - L toe - R toe - L heel - R toe - L toe - R heel etc.
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  #384  
Old 10-23-2007, 03:56 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

CHeers for clearing that up Tim, and thanks for the extra tips, Tim & JWM
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  #385  
Old 11-24-2007, 01:07 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

not sure how im going to find my anwser through reading 380 posts for it,
so my question is, at what price can i get a relatively good drum pedal (none of the expensive
stuff)
heel-toe is it achieved on a normal pedal or the pedal that has 2kicks but on one set(not sure how to describe it-sorry)?
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  #386  
Old 11-24-2007, 02:51 AM
King Of Drums King Of Drums is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

A few words about the heel-toe technique. It is HIGHLY overrated. When I first started I fell for the heel toe hype. I actually believed I could double my speed with this technique as the ad said. It's bs though the world's fastest drummers can't go twice as fast with heel toe as they can with singles. The thing I dislike most about heel toe is that you don't get much volume at all especially at faster speeds. It is also very difficult to streamline this motion i.e. continuous 16ths with 1 foot. I actually spent a lot of time developing the heel-toe method and I will admit it is probably the most effortless way of doubles on the kick. I think the heel-toe is much better for people who play a double pedal because you could do very fast 16ths with it and you can always use mics to deal with the volume issue. But if you have a single pedal heel-toe is not very effective imo.

Another drawback of the heel toe technique is that it is very hard to do it from a heel up position. It's much easier if you play heel down. Overall It is a way over hyped technique with out enough musical applications. Right now I am learning jojo mayer's foot technique and it is much better in just about every way imo. The only thing is it takes a lot longer to get it down as you need more developed leg muscles.
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  #387  
Old 11-24-2007, 08:17 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by King Of Drums View Post
A few words about the heel-toe technique. It is HIGHLY overrated. When I first started I fell for the heel toe hype. I actually believed I could double my speed with this technique as the ad said. It's bs though the world's fastest drummers can't go twice as fast with heel toe as they can with singles. The thing I dislike most about heel toe is that you don't get much volume at all especially at faster speeds. It is also very difficult to streamline this motion i.e. continuous 16ths with 1 foot. I actually spent a lot of time developing the heel-toe method and I will admit it is probably the most effortless way of doubles on the kick. I think the heel-toe is much better for people who play a double pedal because you could do very fast 16ths with it and you can always use mics to deal with the volume issue. But if you have a single pedal heel-toe is not very effective imo.

Another drawback of the heel toe technique is that it is very hard to do it from a heel up position. It's much easier if you play heel down. Overall It is a way over hyped technique with out enough musical applications. Right now I am learning jojo mayer's foot technique and it is much better in just about every way imo. The only thing is it takes a lot longer to get it down as you need more developed leg muscles.
Isn't Jojo using heel-toe himself? Only difference according to him is that instead of heel it's knee so it's more like knee-toe :) He is producing first stroke with full legg not just heel.
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  #388  
Old 11-24-2007, 11:12 PM
King Of Drums King Of Drums is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by abe View Post
Isn't Jojo using heel-toe himself? Only difference according to him is that instead of heel it's knee so it's more like knee-toe :) He is producing first stroke with full legg not just heel.
Yes and that makes a huge difference. It gives you more control for example it is easier to do accents. Plus it much easier do do continuous 16th notes or groups of 3 or 4 etc. than with the heel-toe technique.
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  #389  
Old 11-25-2007, 12:39 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

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Originally Posted by King Of Drums View Post
Yes and that makes a huge difference. It gives you more control for example it is easier to do accents. Plus it much easier do do continuous 16th notes or groups of 3 or 4 etc. than with the heel-toe technique.
OK I understand what you mean. I don't practice heel toe very often and when I do it it's always Jojo's way because I learned his approach from videos and forums first. Just later I learned that there is heel toe without whole legs motion.

Yeah you're right his ''knee-toe'' technique is very practical!
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  #390  
Old 12-18-2007, 05:21 PM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Can anybody tell what Jojo is doing here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAEP_EHw9NQ

It seems a bit of both constant release and heel toe? Anyone care to explain?
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  #391  
Old 12-18-2007, 09:01 PM
Saelen Saelen is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

I love the heel-toe method, and have found many good applications for it, but when I have troubles with it when I'm jamming with others, cos I find that it makes to low sound so you cannot hear it over the guitars and I don't have my drumkit at home micked up. Therefore, it's useless for me in most situations(I don't play in a band atm)
Though I use it quite alot when grooving just alone and cover songs.
I guess many of you have the same problem, or have you all micked up your drumkits? someone got any advice?
thanks!
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  #392  
Old 12-19-2007, 02:12 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

For me, when I play my heel stroke, although the heel comes down, it's actually the ball of my foot playing the pedal board, not my heel. The second stroke in turn, is also played by the ball of my foot.

I know a lot of drummers swear by Axis longboards for playing this technique, as they play the stroke with their heel, and I read in an earlier post that some people had been having trouble playing heel toe if they had big feet - playing "heel toe" the way I do, the heel doesn't even need to be on the footboard, so the type of pedal or foot size doesn't matter. As long as the pedal is set up correctly (I use an Iron Cobra Flexi-Glide,medium spring tension now with the beater a little further back than 45deg), then it shouldn't be too hard to get it happening on both feet - I also find sitting with my legs at 90deg helps a lot!
I do stress though that pedal setup is very important!

Having said that though, I don't feel it's the right pedal technique for accenting double kicks - that's a whole other beast! :-)
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  #393  
Old 12-19-2007, 04:26 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradiddlemadness View Post
For me, when I play my heel stroke, although the heel comes down, it's actually the ball of my foot playing the pedal board, not my heel. The second stroke in turn, is also played by the ball of my foot.

I know a lot of drummers swear by Axis longboards for playing this technique, as they play the stroke with their heel, and I read in an earlier post that some people had been having trouble playing heel toe if they had big feet - playing "heel toe" the way I do, the heel doesn't even need to be on the footboard, so the type of pedal or foot size doesn't matter. As long as the pedal is set up correctly (I use an Iron Cobra Flexi-Glide,medium spring tension now with the beater a little further back than 45deg), then it shouldn't be too hard to get it happening on both feet - I also find sitting with my legs at 90deg helps a lot!
I do stress though that pedal setup is very important!

Having said that though, I don't feel it's the right pedal technique for accenting double kicks - that's a whole other beast! :-)
Could you explain the pedal set-up in greater detail?
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  #394  
Old 12-19-2007, 11:43 AM
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

I'll give it a go ... Initially I had my beaters closer to the head and my spring tension set extremely tight. I heard this was how a lot of the fast double kick players were doing it, so I never really experimented with anything different. I found with my pedals set up like this that I just couldn't do heel-toe on my pedals, but I found I could on some other peoples pedals. I came to the conclusion that pedal setup obviously had some influence on this technique. So as for pedal setup, I think it is best to have your beater move through a full range of motion (the reason why I set it further back now), rather than a shorter motion as it gives the second note played more volume. Basically after you play the "heel" stroke (with front of foot), the beater naturally comes back to it's resting position, and obviously the further back it comes the more volume the next stroke will have. Don't of course take it too far back or you may find your footboard will hit the baseplate before your beater hits the drumhead. The reason I have my spring tension looser is because I don't believe in doing more work (in drumming) than I have to. Drumming in my mind isn't supposed to be a workout at the gym - it's all about the music. I'm also lazy! haha.

As a side note, I use Tama's solid wooden beaters (they kick ass!), and 2 beater balancers on each beater, which are set as close to the beater head as possible. I probably didn't need 2, but had some spares doing nothing at home :-)

I hope this made sense ?!
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  #395  
Old 12-19-2007, 02:30 PM
aydee aydee is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradiddlemadness View Post
I'll give it a go ... Initially I had my beaters closer to the head and my spring tension set extremely tight. I heard this was how a lot of the fast double kick players were doing it, so I never really experimented with anything different. I found with my pedals set up like this that I just couldn't do heel-toe on my pedals, but I found I could on some other peoples pedals. I came to the conclusion that pedal setup obviously had some influence on this technique. So as for pedal setup, I think it is best to have your beater move through a full range of motion (the reason why I set it further back now), rather than a shorter motion as it gives the second note played more volume. Basically after you play the "heel" stroke (with front of foot), the beater naturally comes back to it's resting position, and obviously the further back it comes the more volume the next stroke will have. Don't of course take it too far back or you may find your footboard will hit the baseplate before your beater hits the drumhead. The reason I have my spring tension looser is because I don't believe in doing more work (in drumming) than I have to. Drumming in my mind isn't supposed to be a workout at the gym - it's all about the music. I'm also lazy! haha.

As a side note, I use Tama's solid wooden beaters (they kick ass!), and 2 beater balancers on each beater, which are set as close to the beater head as possible. I probably didn't need 2, but had some spares doing nothing at home :-)

I hope this made sense ?!
Yes, it does , thanks. Basically you are saying that the pedals got to feel bouncier to allow the heel toe to flow naturally.. and that a not so tight tension on the springs allows you that feel..? How about getting the beater caught in your trouser leg as the beater is snapping back ...: )
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  #396  
Old 12-19-2007, 11:43 PM
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Paradiddlemadness Paradiddlemadness is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

It's funny you say that! It hasn't happened yet, but it has happened before (on numerous occasions - mainly practice) with my old pedal setup, so it's just a matter of time! :-)

One thing I can recommend is to tuck your trouser leg into your socks, and your shoelaces into your shoes. This will stop that happening, and because it looks a little daggy, make sure you untuck everything once you finish playing! haha
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  #397  
Old 12-20-2007, 01:59 AM
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brennenlesser brennenlesser is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

here is a warm up video with heel toe I made... any feed back for it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzOIZwhgJ58
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  #398  
Old 12-20-2007, 02:37 AM
TedTheDrumGuy TedTheDrumGuy is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

I've found what works best for me and my students is not to use the heel of the foot at all. Treat this technique like the Moeller technique for the hands. For the downstroke, keep toes close to the top of the pedal (nearest to chain) and your heel off the pedal. Don't "raise" the heel though, play the foot flat to the floor, so there is some space between your heel and the base of the pedal. As you allow the beater to rebound off the bass drum, lift your whole leg without bending, raising, or twisting your ankle. For the second stroke, let he beater bounce all the way back, and slide your foot up the pedal a small amount, as you lower your leg again.

I've tried the "heel toe" technique, and found this to work easier, with a smoother feel and more consistent sound. Keeping your foot 90 degrees from your leg and not twisting or raising creates less tension on the muscles, allowing one to play longer! Sometimes I give a litle extra push with my toes, depending on tempo and dynamics.

Like the Moeller with it's down/up stroke feel, where the up stroke is just allowing the stick to impact the head hen the wrist is raised. It works for me! Hope it works for you too :)
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  #399  
Old 12-20-2007, 06:51 PM
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brennenlesser brennenlesser is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

Quote:
Originally Posted by TedTheDrumGuy View Post
I've found what works best for me and my students is not to use the heel of the foot at all. Treat this technique like the Moeller technique for the hands. For the downstroke, keep toes close to the top of the pedal (nearest to chain) and your heel off the pedal. Don't "raise" the heel though, play the foot flat to the floor, so there is some space between your heel and the base of the pedal. As you allow the beater to rebound off the bass drum, lift your whole leg without bending, raising, or twisting your ankle. For the second stroke, let he beater bounce all the way back, and slide your foot up the pedal a small amount, as you lower your leg again.

I've tried the "heel toe" technique, and found this to work easier, with a smoother feel and more consistent sound. Keeping your foot 90 degrees from your leg and not twisting or raising creates less tension on the muscles, allowing one to play longer! Sometimes I give a litle extra push with my toes, depending on tempo and dynamics.

Like the Moeller with it's down/up stroke feel, where the up stroke is just allowing the stick to impact the head hen the wrist is raised. It works for me! Hope it works for you too :)

that's a cool technique but this is a heel toe thread. I like the technqiue your describing. john blackwell uses it
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  #400  
Old 12-20-2007, 06:51 PM
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brennenlesser brennenlesser is offline
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Default Re: THE HEEL TOE THREAD

technique*** I should really learn how to spell it before teaching it hahaa
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