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  #281  
Old 03-31-2010, 08:11 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Abe, are you suggesting that eggs these days are in any way jazzed?? You have got to be kidding. There is a long tradition of jazzing eggs and I can tell you, as an egg-jazzer from way back, that these days eggs are not jazzed. I won't touch 'em.

For a start, you cannot jazz cage eggs - jazzing implies freedom and the agribusiness suits who consign hens to this kind of slavery wouldn't know jazzed eggs if they fell over them. Jazzed eggs must come from hens that have been able to strut around the farmyard.

And the eggs aren't yellow enough. Truly jazzed eggs are almost orange and they are big, not these insipid little pale yellow impostor things that are full of steroids.

Thirdly, a proper jazzed egg has a lot of spices - all in carefully selected portions according to the chef, who beats the whole mess with gay abandon (not that there's anything wrong with that). A few prepackaged mixed herbs and spiced from the supermarket doesn't cut it.

So please don't try to tell me that these sad, caged, yellow, small, hormone-infested, steroid-induced, plastic spice so-called "jazzed" eggs are truly jazzed. They are mere pop eggs, the kind that any burger flipper in Maccas can produce.

And don't get me started on pop bacon from caged pigs masquerading as the real thing ...
Polly, for the Win. We bow down to your internet humor, that no one else can touch.
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  #282  
Old 03-31-2010, 09:40 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Polly, for the Win. We bow down to your internet humor, that no one else can touch.
Polly may have one; but she's too smart to see a defeat of a bunch of 50 year olds acting like 15 year old punk rockers as a victory.
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  #283  
Old 04-01-2010, 02:26 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Polly may have one; but she's too smart to see a defeat of a bunch of 50 year olds acting like 15 year old punk rockers as a victory.
YAAAAAY! I won, I won! :O) Ken, you clearly think aurally - "Polly may have one".

Thing is, it's kind of true, isn't it? This whole trend towards soulless plastic - the application of economic rationalisation towards everything, not just the arts. Music has been maximised - the slickest and most professional products possible produced in the most efficient manner.

It's a pity people's ears have been trained to expect machine-like slickness because the best (and most efficient) means of musicmaking is to get a bunch of musicians in a room with instruments and let them go for it. The 90s grunge movement seemed promising but slickness has returned with a vengeance.
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  #284  
Old 04-01-2010, 02:44 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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50 year olds acting like 15 year old punk rockers
Hey! I'm pretty sure that I'm supposed to resent that statement. Let me see, I'm sure that's covered somewhere in my jazz musician's guidebook. Um...hold on, I'll find it, just give me a minute. It's got to be in here somewhere...
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  #285  
Old 04-01-2010, 03:40 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Polly, You're our Grand Prize Winner today!
Let me tell you what you have won!
You will fly first class compliments of Jazz Virgin Airlines to spend a fabulous weekend at the brothel in New Orleans where Louis Armstrong first learned how to play Jazz.
Next you will be taken to the very apartment where Gene krupa first tried needle drugs!
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  #286  
Old 04-01-2010, 07:14 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Haha Ken - love the smooth jazz renditions, especially the smooth jazz Enter the Sandman. As for the Central 3 number - that was more fusion than smooth. That was NOT smooth jazz drumming! Also, the Take Five (Take Four?) number was nu jazz more than smooth ... well, both really.

Great prizes Bob! However, I'll pass up on Louie's first jazz venue 'cos I prefer not to work when on holidays ;)
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  #287  
Old 04-01-2010, 09:17 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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YAAAAAY! I won, I won! :O) Ken, you clearly think aurally - "Polly may have one".

Thing is, it's kind of true, isn't it? This whole trend towards soulless plastic - the application of economic rationalisation towards everything, not just the arts. Music has been maximised - the slickest and most professional products possible produced in the most efficient manner.

It's a pity people's ears have been trained to expect machine-like slickness because the best (and most efficient) means of music making is to get a bunch of musicians in a room with instruments and let them go for it. The 90s grunge movement seemed promising but slickness has returned with a vengeance.
'One' your write, I spelled that wrong. :)



My typing is so bad and the thing is, I can't spell type because I didn't learn to spell typing. So even though my posts are bad, that is after I've edited them.

I was part of this discussion forum many years ago and this woman would come though and edit everyone's posts. Jay used to complain about my typing.. The wonderful thing about these internet forums is that it does force you to write exactly what you mean.

So what's the difference between Smooth jazz and nu jazz besides the obvious fact the nu jazz is new and smooth jazz is well, smoooooth.:P

PS. Several months back I asked my jazz band to switch styles and move more towards a pop jazz format; :Jazz Crusaders, Steely Dan, Marcus Miller and George Benson. Get a female singer. I though we'd get more gigs. They said no; but now we're doing Toto's Jake to the Bone . . makes for a lot of bad jokes. We really walk the thin line between pop jazz and more serious comps like Black Nile, Impressions or Inner Urge. We were already doing Sugar, which I took out of the line up and Beck's Come Dancing, which I took out of the line up. We do Afro Blue, Stratus and Birdland. Birdland is actually rough because Zawinul set-up the sections to repeat in odd numbers. I think you have to find your niche and stay with it; there is a point where you just don't want to work that hard for people who are drunk on a Saturday night. When you do a lot of prog rock and fusion, it can be hard to navigate through.
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  #288  
Old 04-01-2010, 10:42 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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'One' your write, I spelled that wrong. :)

My typing is so bad and the thing is, I can't spell type because I didn't learn to spell typing. So even though my posts are bad, that is after I've edited them.

I was part of this discussion forum many years ago and this woman would come though and edit everyone's posts. Jay used to complain about my typing.. The wonderful thing about these internet forums is that it does force you to write exactly what you mean.
Surprised to hear you say your typing is bad, Ken. You must be a good editor. I also do aural typos - rhyming errors. I bet if they did a study they'd find that a higher percentage of musos do this than others.

I wouldn't worry about what that Jay punk says *evil grin* Seriously, it's a pain when we type in something that can be misconstrued. My pet hate is when someone creates a Straw Polly to knock down based on me getting my tone wrong so I sometimes write these crazily long posts to cover all potential misunderstandings .... and blah blah blah ...

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So what's the difference between Smooth jazz and nu jazz besides the obvious fact the nu jazz is new and smooth jazz is well, smoooooth.:P
IMO nu jazz usually has one of the following: sequencers, loops, dubs and/or drum machines. It may or may not be smooth. Nu/smooth jazz fusion? :)

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PS. Several months back I asked my jazz band to switch styles and move more towards a pop jazz format; :Jazz Crusaders, Steely Dan, Marcus Miller and George Benson. Get a female singer. I though we'd get more gigs. They said no; but now we're doing Toto's Jake to the Bone . . makes for a lot of bad jokes. We really walk the thin line between pop jazz and more serious comps like Black Nile, Impressions or Inner Urge. We were already doing Sugar, which I took out of the line up and Beck's Come Dancing, which I took out of the line up. We do Afro Blue, Stratus and Birdland. Birdland is actually rough because Zawinul set-up the sections to repeat in odd numbers. I think you have to find your niche and stay with it; there is a point where you just don't want to work that hard for people who are drunk on a Saturday night. When you do a lot of prog rock and fusion, it can be hard to navigate through.
Some nice tracks there. Stratus would be fun. Birdland, yes, much harder than it looks in all respects.

Once you have a strong singer your "lead voice" instruments lose many of their expressive opportunities as they take more of an accompanist role. I'll take a guess - the guitarist and keys player were the ones who didn't want a vocalist, yes?

My band is coming from the other direction, starting with an androgynous male singer and we play standards like Broadway, Walk On By, Summertime, Cry Me a River etc plus a bit of soul and 60s rock. One instrumental - , the blues shuffle, Watch Out. In a way I miss playing psychedelic / indie rock originals as in the past but, as Bermuda says, it's all still playing drums.

If Kenny G took offered me the job of drumming with him and the $$ and security justified quitting my job, I'd jump!
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  #289  
Old 04-01-2010, 06:00 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Polly,

People seemed to bail on this thread. I have a way of doing that. But I have to say that when someone lays down an argument that is not 'his own" but the argument that great players and scholars give and then people spit on it with some ignorant s@#$ like "screw tradition, "you have to have a laugh at their expense.

Stan is exactly right. You talk to these guys or hear interviews and they talk about the spiritual search, jazz as life and musical exploration in mystical terms. Even free jazzers today talk about 'the tradition' of free jazz. You go to learn tabla or Afro-Cuban percussion and it's all about the tradition. You don't just talk and give Stan a hard time when everyone knows where he stands and he's talking the deal and everyone else is talking crap. And for me, that says more about the original question than anything else.

Styles are styles and genres are genres. Nu jazz has its stylistic aspect as does Smooth jazz. You go into a gig and someone says this is a bossa, you don't play a waltz.

An artist may want to let all he or she knows behind when you compose or perform and enter into uncharted territory. But even to do that one has to know what the tradition is and what you are leaving behind. More paradoxes.

In re to the singer. yeah, once you have a singer it all changes, doesn't it? It's a whole different world. But my feeling is that we are playing in NYC. We're competing with some of the top players in the world, so being a little realistic may not be a bad thing. Mixing it up with some of the songs you are doing can be fun, and ultimately that's what people want in a club.

Duke said there are only two types of music good and bad; but there is also great music, and that music usually is not made with the intention that it will sell a lot of records or many people will hear it. that is not to say that the composer would not like to sell a lot of records and have many people hear it. it is just that $$$ is not the fundamental goal; of the composition.
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  #290  
Old 04-01-2010, 07:58 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Polly,

People seemed to bail on this thread. I have a way of doing that. But I have to say that when someone lays down an argument that is not 'his own" but the argument that great players and scholars give and then people spit on it with some ignorant s@#$ like "screw tradition, "you have to have a laugh at their expense.

Stan is exactly right. You talk to these guys or hear interviews and they talk about the spiritual search, jazz as life and musical exploration in mystical terms. Even free jazzers today talk about 'the tradition' of free jazz. You go to learn tabla or Afro-Cuban percussion and it's all about the tradition. You don't just talk and give Stan a hard time when everyone knows where he stands and he's talking the deal and everyone else is talking crap. And for me, that says more about the original question than anything else.


I think I'm starting to understand where the term 'jazz snob' comes from. I have a ton of respect for someone who dedicates a large portion of their life mastering their craft, but.... spiritual search, .....mystical terms?

And "everyone else is talking crap", seems a bit much.
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  #291  
Old 04-01-2010, 08:08 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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I think I'm starting to understand where the term 'jazz snob' comes from. I have a ton of respect for someone who dedicates a large portion of their life mastering their craft, but.... spiritual search, .....mystical terms?

And "everyone else is talking crap", seems a bit much.
The term comes from dealing with people who read one post in an eight page and think that he knows the deal, can have an opinion and knows what's going on. :)

I was a bit harsh; but so were others. I can admit that, Can they? and can I add Can you?
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  #292  
Old 04-01-2010, 08:51 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Stan is exactly right. You talk to these guys or hear interviews and they talk about the spiritual search, jazz as life and musical exploration in mystical terms. Even free jazzers today talk about 'the tradition' of free jazz. You go to learn tabla or Afro-Cuban percussion and it's all about the tradition. You don't just talk and give Stan a hard time when everyone knows where he stands and he's talking the deal and everyone else is talking crap. And for me, that says more about the original question than anything else.
.
True, but it's funny because be-bop and free jazz originally were about rebellion, and forging new paths and not following tradition, . If the original free jazzers wanted tradition, they would have played ragtime.

I get the mystical aspect, but that doesn't then deny that schlock exists too. Many people feel a mystical attraction to rock and roll, in the music of the Beatles, the Who, etc, but that doesn't mean they say Poison isn't a rock band if they don't like it. Classical has a rich tradition, but classical fans don't say the composers they feel less attracted to are not part of the scene.

So I get slamming Kenny G for being watered down cheesy schlock, but trying to say it has nothing to do with jazz because he uses the wrong chords, or because it doesn't require sophistication is in denial of the jazz music that is also more of a pop format.
It is what it is, even if done poorly.

Afro-cuban tradition is different, in that you can trace the history of that music back hundreds of of years, and much of it ingrained the culture of the people who play it. The drum set didn't exist before 1890, the conga drum (at least it's precursors to the modern conga) go back hundreds upon hundreds of years.
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  #293  
Old 04-01-2010, 08:53 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Overall, I'm amused on how points points were glossed over or all out ignored, and how many people fell into the term "hook, line and sinker".
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  #294  
Old 04-01-2010, 09:20 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Afro-cuban tradition is different, in that you can trace the history of that music back hundreds of of years, and much of it ingrained the culture of the people who play it. The drum set didn't exist before 1890, the conga drum (at least it's precursors to the modern conga) go back hundreds upon hundreds of years.

No different situation in my view if you trace the relatively new history of the music called JAZZ...it DOES have deep traditions and firm roots with common language base throughout its short history on the grand scheme of things that is shared from and can be directly traced back to the mother jazz tree right out to her outer branches of its expression till today.

Like I said about the Jack D. solo covering the WHOLE history of the music and jazz drumming in 5 minutes when I heard him with Keith. Pretty deep, authentic and serious knowledge base to call from with the due respect and complete musical understanding for the traditions in the music that came before but heard with a vision still towards the future of the music in question at the same time. You can be a rebel but you don't have to be a full blown tearing away all forms of traditions with full blown anarchy to achieve fresh modern creative results. You have to base your rebellion off of something of substance in the first place before you or you end up with completely empty shallow of substance end results to replace the traditions you hate musically speaking life has taught me.
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  #295  
Old 04-01-2010, 09:25 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Overall, I'm amused on how points points were glossed over or all out ignored, and how many people fell into the term "hook, line and sinker".

Me too...... usually when people repeatedly ignore the comments from individuals who ACTUALLY have something REALLY invested into the music in question but who's comments are completely ignored or told they are incorrect with their POV time and time again.

Around and around we go............again....again....again...again..... .. and yet again.
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  #296  
Old 04-01-2010, 09:29 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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The term comes from dealing with people who read one post in an eight page and think that he knows the deal, can have an opinion and knows what's going on. :)

I was a bit harsh; but so were others. I can admit that, Can they? and can I add Can you?
Was I being harsh?......I apologize, but it's hard to pass up an opportunity to call someone a snob. :) And I find this argument rather fascinating.

You know who's far snobbier than jazz players? Bluegrass musicians.....I know you're thinking "How can 4 guys in matching checkered shirts be snobby?", but it's true. If Kenny ever covers Blue Moon of Kentucky watch out.
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  #297  
Old 04-01-2010, 09:42 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Overall, I'm amused on how points points were glossed over or all out ignored, and how many people fell into the term "hook, line and sinker".
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Me too...... usually when people repeatedly ignore the comments from individuals who ACTUALLY have something REALLY invested into the music in question but who's comments are completely ignored or told they are incorrect with their POV time and time again.

Around and around we go............again....again....again...again..... .. and yet again.
First off, my initial interpretation of DEDs comment was actually going the other direction from yours, Steamer. Funny how perception can do that, eh?

You know, I'm listening to Jay Norem's quartet as I type this, and am struck by how he can so consistently and sincerely defy the jazz snob stereotype others' seem so hell bent on preserving while playing such enjoyable jazz.

Hat's off to you, Jay.

Steamer, are you saying that Jay doesn't ACTUALLY have anything REALLY invested into his music? Because that seems to be the implication. I would be more careful in my word choice if I were you.

Last edited by MikeM; 04-01-2010 at 09:59 PM.
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  #298  
Old 04-01-2010, 09:57 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Me too...... usually when people repeatedly ignore the comments from individuals who ACTUALLY have something REALLY invested into the music in question but who's comments are completely ignored or told they are incorrect with their POV time and time again.

Around and around we go............again....again....again...again..... .. and yet again.
I'm sure anyone who's ever written and recorded a song feels they have something 'really invested' into the music....even Kenny G.
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  #299  
Old 04-01-2010, 10:13 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Overall, I'm amused on how points points were glossed over or all out ignored, and how many people fell into the term "hook, line and sinker".
It's a discussion that has a long history around here.

Actually there was a point where I was arguing your point of view and Bob and Jay were at each other's throats.

A lot of popular music has been preserved historically. King Henry VIII destroyed a lot of England's because he didn't want any other music but that of his church to survive. But you have the madrigal, French rondeau, ballad or virelai, popular operas, divertimentos, folk songs

Many of the great composers, notably Bach, were able to write every mannered-academic music like fugues and inventions, while also writing popular piece like secular cantatas, concertos and songs, While also writing functional pieces for the church, and didactic piece like the Anna Magadelana songbook. It's a wonder people still revere this guy. And having 20 kids, you'd have to ask when did he find the time.

That type of musical perspective is lost and has been lost for some 100 years. Was it Wagner? Was it Schoenberg, I don't know?

In the last 100 years there has been an increased role that marketing has taken in the proliferation of music. For Warhol, that has really changed the way art was seen as well because now there is no such thing as the original authentic masterpiece. Everyone could have a Rembrandt in their living room. The mass proliferation of art is also the mass popularization of art. In music, this has lead to a constant conflict between commercialism and authenticity. And so many have spoken about it from the boppers, folkies and John Lennon to hip-hoppers, alt rockers and jazzers like Metheny. So it's a part of the culture of making music. it is not just academic nonsense.

One way to reconcile the conflict is to make everything aesthetically neutral. If anybody can call anything jazz or rock, or art or crap, then how do you decide what is the authentic, real deal.The Sex Pistols is of equal value artistically to Miles Davis. I don't believe that. There is something as greatness and excellence in music, and I think the serious minded artist takes that into consideration when creating art. That artist creates out of individual impetus regardless of style, genre or especially marketability. But one of the thing that the great artists is going to know is the traditions, even if that artist decides to leave them behind.
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  #300  
Old 04-02-2010, 12:00 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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First off, my initial interpretation of DEDs comment was actually going the other direction from yours, Steamer. Funny how perception can do that, eh?

You know, I'm listening to Jay Norem's quartet as I type this, and am struck by how he can so consistently and sincerely defy the jazz snob stereotype others' seem so hell bent on preserving while playing such enjoyable jazz.

Hat's off to you, Jay.

Steamer, are you saying that Jay doesn't ACTUALLY have anything REALLY invested into his music? Because that seems to be the implication. I would be more careful in my word choice if I were you.
I wasn't singling out anyone in particular and actually like his tunes I heard just an observation over the years here that most folks attacking the comments or credibility of indivduals on the subject of jazz turn out truth be known in the real world to have no real interest or anything personally or otherwise really invested of value to bring to the discussion on the subject of jazz in many cases but have the most to say usually in a negative manner or tone directed at actual jazz musicians and their sincere point of view and what they live and believe. Just saying......

And the jazz snobery card when used I see as a really lame excuse to avoid getting to the real heart of the matter to differ the discussion or the credibility of the discussion from a jazz musicians perspective back to the start of the game all over again. I'm not into discussing solving people's personal hate on or motives, issues and negative attitudes that certain individuals show on the subject of jazz or the musicians playing it only the music, its componants and what it means to me in a more intelligent and positive way coming from a jazz tradition but not stuck but flexable within it.

Around and around we go but go no place in particular we go as a end result..........
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  #301  
Old 04-02-2010, 12:32 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Originally Posted by Steamer View Post
No different situation in my view if you trace the relatively new history of the music called JAZZ...it DOES have deep traditions and firm roots with common language base throughout its short history on the grand scheme of things that is shared from and can be directly traced back to the mother jazz tree right out to her outer branches of its expression till today.

Like I said about the Jack D. solo covering the WHOLE history of the music and jazz drumming in 5 minutes when I heard him with Keith. Pretty deep, authentic and serious knowledge base to call from with the due respect and complete musical understanding for the traditions in the music that came before but heard with a vision still towards the future of the music in question at the same time. You can be a rebel but you don't have to be a full blown tearing away all forms of traditions with full blown anarchy to achieve fresh modern creative results. You have to base your rebellion off of something of substance in the first place before you or you end up with completely empty shallow of substance end results to replace the traditions you hate musically speaking life has taught me.
No one is denying these facts of tradition, or intensity. No one is saying they don't exist.
That wasn't my point.

But thanks again for once again proving what I said a few posts back. LOL.
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Old 04-02-2010, 12:34 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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No one is denying these facts of tradition, or intensity. No one is saying they don't exist.
That wasn't my point.

But thanks again for once again proving what I said a few posts back. LOL.
And mine a few moments back..... thanks....LOL!
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Old 04-02-2010, 12:47 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

This has become like what was in the stick twirling thread..

Someone posted a rant that serious drummers don't twirl, naming several names of drummers who don't. Which was ignorant of the fact the players like Krupa, Sony Payne, and many other jazz legends did indeed twirl their sticks or performed other visual tricks. Buddy Rich even once played his drum kit upside down (of which the video has been posted on here somewhere).

In another thread, someone said china cymbals are just for metal, and have no dynamics, again ignorant of guys like Krupa and Big Sid Catlett and others who used chinas at times, or all the time.

No can deny that we all have opinions, and that some musical moments are mystical, intense, steeped in tradition, history, or otherwise be beyond description, but these moments and opinions don't render other musical moments to not exist or for them to not be music. Generalizing is easy, but rarely accurate.

I hate certain bands with a passion, and wouldn't given them (or Kenny G) consideration beyond the dog doo in my yard, but I don't pretend that it doesn't exist as a music, or attempt to classify as another genre because it offends the genres I do like.
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Old 04-02-2010, 02:26 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Ken, I didn't realise there was unburnt tinder until you threw the match on it :)

Actually I agreed with Punk Jay's point that WAWW was a lame, twee song that Our Kenny only managed to make even more lame and twee.

Would any of us here be offended if Kenny dubbed soprano over Moonlight Sonata? I reckon that track's just screaming for Kenny to hit the G spot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steamer
You can be a rebel but you don't have to be a full blown tearing away all forms of traditions with full blown anarchy to achieve fresh modern creative results. You have to base your rebellion off of something of substance in the first place before you or you end up with completely empty shallow of substance end results to replace the traditions you hate musically speaking
I like this comment a lot, although I don't think anyone here is tearing them all away. From what I've heard we are all relatively conventional players who draw on what's been done before in our genres.

I find the best renegade music comes from those who aren't rebelling against tradition but who simply follow their own quirky vision - people like Klaus Shulz, Captain Beefheart, Bob Fripp, Eno and Pere Ubu. I guess jazz equivalents would be guys like Ornette and Monk.
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Old 04-02-2010, 02:29 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post


I hate certain bands with a passion, and wouldn't given them (or Kenny G) consideration beyond the dog doo in my yard, but I don't pretend that it doesn't exist as a music, or attempt to classify as another genre because it offends the genres I do like.
The greater issues that Pat Metheny alludes are the ones that ultimately are interesting to talk about. Those issues are real issues that professional musicians grapple with.

Smooth jazz is not something jazz historians talk about or serious jazz musicians take seriously. You're going to have metal heads who are going to talk about the LA Scene as one great mistake in the history of the genre. Metal is different because it is about selling and marketing music; it is a music made for mass consumption; where as for quite some time jazz has been a music that is made by many purely for the artistic and expressionistic aspects of the genre, and truthfully musicians who make popular jazz know the difference. The problem is there are too many people who don't.

There are so many musicians now being lumped into the smooth jazz banner. A lot of jazz musicians did not want to be lumped into the 'new age' jazz category of the 1980s that became smooth jazz. Is there something very different between Wes or George Benson doing pop standards and what I hear when I put on the channel that has the tv listings?

You're saying that we shouldn't deny that the industry is a major force in the creation of music so why should we deny it when it in and of itself creates a genre of music. Most musicians are going to argue that that should be left up to the artists. You're going against a stream going back to Mozart and Beethoven for the artist to have greater freedom and control over his or her musical creations. Ultimately, I'm not the impressed with the music. I find it boring. There I said it.it had its place to function as office music, and I think most of those stations are gone now.

Historically speaking, what do you call Bensons' take on Breezin,' Mangiones Land of Make Believe, Manhattan Transfer's Killer Joe, Weather Reports Birdland, Metheny's Last Train Home. I would rather let the artists decide what to call their music and in lieu of that, scholars who actually study the music and can describe it for what it is.

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Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post

Actually I agreed with Punk Jay's point that WAWW was a lame, twee song that Our Kenny only managed to make even more lame and twee.
.
that was the out. If Kenny has said look, "Pat Metheny is right; but Pops had his pop side and I am recognizing it." But Kenny didn't. He didn't really have a level of understanding to talk about what he had done on a different level.

Remember this album. It was huge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLbEZkuIRBk
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Old 04-02-2010, 02:59 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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You're going to have metal heads who are going to talk about the LA Scene as one great mistake in the history of the genre. Metal is different because it is about selling and marketing music; it is a music made for mass consumption; where as for quite some time jazz has been a music that is made by many purely for the artistic and expressionistic aspects of the genre
Wow, that statement is a gross over-generalization that is about as bold as it is offensive; and one that I think highlights your own ignorance about the genre (and perhaps any genre other than your own).

I'm not a metal guy myself, but I can easily recognize that that there are many highly talented metal players out there toiling away at their craft with the full knowledge that they'll never see a "payday" from it. Just my own rehearsal studio has at least a half-dozen highly competent metal bands in it that are anything but geared for mass consumption.

If you can't tell the difference between Meshuggah and Cinderalla, then I suggest you not comment on metal.

The point remains that nobody's trying to say that Cinderalla (the cheesy mass marketed one) isn't metal, or not rock. "Serious" rock people (a stupid symmetry I'll maintain here for sake of consistency) know the difference between the two and which one is more deserving of artistic merit. It's the exact same thing we're talking about in this thread.

It's Metheny's self-righteous indignation at the prospect of Kenny G being considered by some as "jazz" that to most is simply laughable. Get over yourself already. Who cares?

Last edited by MikeM; 04-02-2010 at 03:16 AM.
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Old 04-02-2010, 03:12 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

hey Mike DROP the hostility fest already. it's a 'discussion." Let me TELL you YOU are gravely mistaken if you don't think that I knew that he would come back with this answer.
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Old 04-02-2010, 03:26 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Im just sittin here, lurkin, and lovin this whole thread!

WAIT a MIN!

That would be a good name for a Smooth Jazz tune.
"Sittin, Lurkin, and Lovin"

Im inspired now. I have some work to do, I'll be back later.
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Old 04-02-2010, 03:34 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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hey Mike DROP the hostility fest already. it's a 'discussion." Let me TELL you YOU are gravely mistaken if you don't think that I knew that he would come back with this answer.
Yeah, except that I don't take orders from you, and whatever "hostility" I may feeling is irrelevant.

As far as I'm concerned, we're having a "discussion". If you're going to misrepresent something (the nature of metal, for example) I'm going to point that out to you as part of the discussion. I think it's relevant.

You don't have to like it, but if you're going to assert that metal has no artistic merit, then you're just going to lose credibility. There are a lot of fantastic players in metal.

So you're TELLing me that YOU were "baiting" DED with that remark? What possible purpose could that have served? I don't believe that that's what was happening there, but whatever.
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Old 04-02-2010, 03:36 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Im just sittin here, lurkin, and lovin this whole thread!

WAIT a MIN!

That would be a good name for a Smooth Jazz tune.
"Sittin, Lurkin, and Lovin"

Im inspired now. I have some work to do, I'll be back later.
Hey Bob! What about setting to the tune "Lovin' Touchin' Squeezin'"? Put a little Kenny G horn on that sucker and you're all set!
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Old 04-02-2010, 03:38 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Myself, I've written some smooth jazz music. Absolutely true, I did it and it wasn't as easy as I thought it would be, but I did it. I wrote it, recorded it and it was played on the weather channel for awhile. A milestone in my career! It was dreadful stuff but the checks were nice, and I don't apologize for making a living.

What are you going to do, say no to anything that isn't "pure jazz?" See, I've got bills to pay, and idealism doesn't get that done.

I've also played on Popeye's chicken jingles. I guess I must be totally lacking integrity.
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Old 04-02-2010, 03:48 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Yeah, except that I don't take orders from you, and whatever "hostility" I may feeling is irrelevant.

are a lot of fantastic players in metal.

So you're TELLing me that YOU were "baiting" DED with that remark? What possible purpose could that have served? I don't believe that that's what was happening there, but whatever.
BECAUSE THAT IS THE WHOLE CRUX OF THE ARGUMENT. CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT!!!
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Old 04-02-2010, 03:50 AM
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I've also played on Popeye's chicken jingles. I guess I must be totally lacking integrity.
Was that a jazz chicken?

This is a discussion and it that sense it is idealistic.

But no one is going to put any one down for making a living.
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Old 04-02-2010, 03:51 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Hey Bob! What about setting to the tune "Lovin' Touchin' Squeezin'"? Put a little Kenny G horn on that sucker and you're all set!
I currently play three different versions of that tune with three different bands. I'm Tired of that song! LOL
I was thinking more along the line of "Wishin, an Hopin, Etc!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycbgHM1mI0k
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Old 04-02-2010, 03:51 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Was that a jazz chicken?
No, there was an accordion player on that date.

Not to say that the accordion can't play jazz.
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Old 04-02-2010, 03:51 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Thing is, Ken, the people who go for the G Spot are not, for the most part, people who enjoy Bird or Trane or Weather Report etc.

Many are women who want to be soothed by music and who are not jazz aficionados. They are most likely the same people who get off on Satchmo's WAWW. In short, people for whom almost no amount of saccharine is too sweet. WAWW is probably the only Satchmo song they know and they most likely sigh and think of it as truly beautiful as opposed to a load of annoyingly sentimental tripe.

They are the G Man's audience and, really, what he does makes perfect sense to me. These people have a right to have naive musical tastes and the right to have Kenny Baybee entertain them. To them, his Satchmo dubs combine the best of two worlds. I have read that it's a show stopper at his gigs - lol. WARNING WARNING! EXTREME SACCHARINE ATTACK!

So while what The Big G does may appear to jazz people as treading on hallowed turf, he's actually running a different race altogether. In one sense what Kenny does is irrelevant. WAWW is irrelevant. Pat is seeing it in symbolic terms, ie. Louis is jazz and Kenny is cheapening it.

But the specifics matter and WAWW is not jazz. Importantly, I don't think the general public see it as jazz (which they see as that boring, esoteric music that they don't worry about).

I don't think his additional helpings of sugar of the sticky sweet that is WAWW is the problem. The incident strikes me as a conduit for jazzers' resentment about the public seeing Kenny as being jazz, and they are alarmed at the idea that their identity as jazz musicians will look lame if they are lumped in with Mr G. The practical ramifications are that they could be pressured to play "jazz that's more like Kenny G".

Ultimately, the musical world is changing. Jazz thought it was immune from the changes that have neutered rock, but it's not. The creeping plastic is getting everywhere.

PS. I note that people are crying "sacrilege" on the YouTube vid of Jan Garbarek. They did the same when Wendy Carlos played Switched On Bach. People seem to find it satisfying to cry "sacrilege".

If Kenny wants to dub his tootlings on King Crimson's Epitaph (my equivalent) I don't think I'd be worried. I'd listen, make a decision on it and, if I wasn't impressed (inevitable :) I'd only listen to the original.

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Was that a jazz chicken?
Don't get me started on jazzed eggs!
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Old 04-02-2010, 04:01 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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BECAUSE THAT IS THE WHOLE CRUX OF THE ARGUMENT. CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT!!!
We must be talking about different arguments now. I thought we were talking about not calling some sub-genre (or one of its players) part of the mother genre because some from another sub-genre of the same mother genre didn't approve of that other sub-genre, or a particular player in that other sub-genre.

We were applying this concept to both jazz and rock since the same rules should hold.

Have you strayed from the original on me?
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Old 04-02-2010, 04:03 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

You know what strikes me the most about this thread?
It's the fact that people will wast their time actually discussing kenny G in a Jazz thread on an internationally renown drum forum!

I love you guys!
I've had a blast!
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Old 04-02-2010, 04:07 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Good post, Polly.

Let's say for the sake of argument that the CD buying public does, in fact, consider Kenny G to be a jazz musician, okay? That the people who go to his concerts are convinced that Kenny G plays jazz.

So f******g what? This is what I'm not getting here. So bloody what, anyway? Those people are never, I mean not ever in a million years, going to make it a point to seek out a Clifford Brown CD. The idea is absurd.

Jazz is listened to and supported by people who like jazz, and the Kenny G or Boney James fans don't in any way, shape or form figure into it.

Who the hell cares what it's called? The people who know jazz, as small a demographic as they may represent, know what's what where jazz is concerned.
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Old 04-02-2010, 04:12 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

That's it Polly. I think you put the nail on it again. The recording was the last straw for Pat..

I think it would be interesting to talk about a rock equivalent, now that rock is becoming enshrined in the sacred halls. When the Brits first started doing blues the aficionados complained; but the artist themselves weren't the ones complaining. There was ELP, which Lester Bangs said ruined rock and roll. Prog rock defiled the 'sacred' profanity of rock and roll. It was a war crime. LA Metal comes under the heading of inter-sexualizing the genre. So even though purists decried it, at home, everyone was happy.

But really, rock and roll is about rebellion. Can you do anything to defile it?

It's funny because folks say the 1980s were the demise of great music. Older folks say it was the 70s and Led Zeppelin especially. Then when that rock and roll came in in the 50s it destroyed everything. Do you think that it is somewhat of a myth that each generation comes to believe, that everything is in decline? They said that at the turn of the century too, and with jazz in the 1920s.
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