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  #121  
Old 03-26-2010, 05:54 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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No angst Jay just trying to put across the idea of commitment which can and does lead to success I have learned.
Like him or not, I'd have to say that Kenny G is a good example of how commitment can indeed lead to success, the kind of success that you and I can only dream of, that is if we wanted to. Myself, I have absolutely nothing against the guy. I may as well rant and rave about how lousy Lawrence Welk was.

It just doesn't matter.
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  #122  
Old 03-26-2010, 05:54 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

I found the perfect solution to this problem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmUmh...eature=related

Kenny, run away with Rod.

Please!
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  #123  
Old 03-26-2010, 05:57 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Like him or not, I'd have to say that Kenny G is a good example of how commitment can indeed lead to success, the kind of success that you and I can only dream of, that is if we wanted to. Myself, I have absolutely nothing against the guy. I may as well rant and rave about how lousy Lawrence Welk was.

It just doesn't matter.
Point taken.... but I have to live with myself on what i've "committed" my life to......:]


Each to their own on that........
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  #124  
Old 03-26-2010, 06:02 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Point taken.... but I have to live with myself on what i've "committed" my life to......:]
We all have to live with ourselves. Some people are just better at it than others.
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  #125  
Old 03-26-2010, 06:26 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Cash register he may be. Kenny will never be this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1Rq3mBO0yE&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUASO...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcyup...eature=related

Louis could make that Trumpet sound like a Soprano Sax and then some. RIP Satchmo.
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  #126  
Old 03-26-2010, 06:36 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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I found the perfect solution to this problem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmUmh...eature=related

Kenny, run away with Rod.

Please!
Rod Stewart doing American Standards is another example of a world gone crazy. Do any of these guys know what the word phrasing means?
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  #127  
Old 03-26-2010, 06:40 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Rod Stewart doing American Standards is another example of a world gone crazy. Do any of these guys know what the word phrasing means?
LOL - I believe the only phrasing Rod and Kenny employ are the seduction phrases they rehearse to bed their doting admirers. Rod doing American Standards should be kept in the annals of America's Most Disturbing Home Videos, and not let out. Ever.
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  #128  
Old 03-26-2010, 06:40 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Rod Stewart doing American Standards is another example of a world gone crazy. Do any of these guys know what the word phrasing means?
I don't know about you, but all this gives me the Heebie Jeebies!

I got to have the Heebies!
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  #129  
Old 03-26-2010, 07:22 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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It has no real substance when directly compared to anymore actually applying the art form of jazz in a credible sense. To call it jazz diminishes the efforts and contributions of others in my view to lump it all into one.

Leads to the defining lines getting completely blurred as just stated where the real jazz musicians are asked by the general public why don't you play "jazz" {?} music and tunes just like KG? Crazy s....

Sad road...no winners...for those still in the jazz trenches.
But what can be done? Kenny's audience looks for his work in jazz sections of shops because they see it as jazz. There's no other reason for the music to be classified as such in shops - they obviously make more #$$ by putting his CDs in the jazz section.

In terms of public perception the definition of "jazz" now includes music with jazzlike sonics but doesn't have jazz spirit. The decisions as to what genre music belongs to (in the opinion of the general public) ends up with 1) the marketeers and 2) the masses. Not musicians. Ironically, our opinions don't count.

This means that weird things happen. Look at metal. It's reached a point where the original heavy metal band, Black Sabbath, isn't even considered to be metal any more because Ozzy sang melodies (of sorts :) and there were hardly any machine gun rhythms. How about RnB? I'd always associated the term "RnB" with bands like The Stones and Dr Feelgood. Suddenly RnB means boy bands with equivalent musical values to Kenny G.

We're getting older. The world is changing and the old landmarks we once recognised are being bulldozed down and replaced with shiny new skyscrapers, yuppie apartments and McDonalds and Starbucks. Dad felt that way in the 60s. If there's an electric guitar involved he switches off - he likes the sound of horns and the old big bands. His Mum felt that way in the 30s - she thought that the "new jazz stuff" he liked was coarse and shallow. She liked waltzes.

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I think the fact that posters would disrespect him says more than anything else to my 'big ears.'
Ken, I don't disrespect Pat Metheny as a musician. It strikes me that he's angry because a competitor in his market is cutting in on his market share with a less sophisticated product, and a product he doesn't believe belongs in his marketplace. So he tried to discredit his main competitor - a common business practice. I expect his attention-seeking rant will have boosted his sales while gaining him extra brownie points with those who value romanticism more than logic. Not a bad coup. I think Larry's idea of a satirical number would be more dignified and effective. Maybe even use wit instead of abuse?

Yes, there's more plastic in the music scene today than suits me but plastic is all the rage. Never mind jazz - rock's gone 10 times more plastic. I would love organic qualities to become popular again but perhaps in an increasingly synthesised, plastic world it makes sense that people are increasingly responding to more machine-like music?
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  #130  
Old 03-26-2010, 04:12 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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...But "What A Wonderful World?" Please...you could have Megadeath overdub on that thing and it wouldn't matter.
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

That just for grins. Hold the locusts, please!
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  #131  
Old 03-26-2010, 05:34 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

[quote=Pollyanna;680802]

Ken, I don't disrespect Pat Metheny as a musician. It strikes me that he's angry because a competitor in his market is cutting in on his market share with a less sophisticated product, and a product he doesn't believe belongs in his marketplace. So he tried to discredit his main competitor - a common business practice. I expect his attention-seeking rant will have boosted his sales while gaining him extra brownie points with those who value romanticism more than logic. Not a bad coup. I think Larry's idea of a satirical number would be more dignified and effective. Maybe even use wit instead of abuse?

QUOTE]


Oh please......you're are missing the whole point of Pat's point of view on the KG/ LA issue as i've indicated already in detail from my take on it COUNTLESS times from the perspective of another jazz musician. In Pat's case he has a right to express this very LOGICAL point of view on the subject about what he said about KG. To champion what you believe by introducing other more devious scenarios yet again into the mix could have been just plain funny if it wasn't totally sad by missing the whole point of the whole endeavor yet again by a royal mile.

Ken can give you his own take on your latest conspriracy theory if he wishes......
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  #132  
Old 03-26-2010, 05:44 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

[quote=Steamer;680915][quote=Pollyanna;680802]





Oh please......you're are missing the whole point of Pat's point of view on the KG/ LA issue as i've indicated already in detail from my take on it

HAHAHAHA that is the most absurd thing you have ever typed. Your take on it?? That means your interpratation and possibly not everyone elses. So why continue to tell everyone they have it all wrong when they are also intitled to their take on it?
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  #133  
Old 03-26-2010, 05:53 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

[quote=TFITTING942;680919

HAHAHAHA that is the most absurd thing you have ever typed. Your take on it?? That means your interpratation and possibly not everyone elses. So why continue to tell everyone they have it all wrong when they are also intitled to their take on it?[/QUOTE]

Because Pat's simple logic of the whole situation seems painfully obvious to those coming from a similar point of view on it. Not just me but many others jazz musicians out there feel exactly the same and express a similar point of view about it either in public or in private.

To try and manipulate it to make it right by trying to discredit Pat M.'s valid point of view is just plain wrong in my books. I'm sure others feel the same whether they have the guts to call it out on a open forum is another question. I don't have any problem with that as you can see......
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  #134  
Old 03-26-2010, 06:55 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Originally Posted by Pollyanna;

Ken, I don't disrespect Pat Metheny as a musician. It strikes me that he's angry because a competitor in his market is cutting in on his market share with a less sophisticated product, and a product he doesn't believe belongs in his marketplace. So he tried to discredit his main competitor - a common business practice. I expect his attention-seeking rant will have boosted his sales while gaining him extra brownie points with those who value romanticism more than logic. Not a bad coup. I think Larry's idea of a satirical number would be more dignified and effective. Maybe even use wit instead of abuse?

Yes, there's more plastic in the music scene today than suits me but plastic is all the rage. Never mind jazz - rock's gone 10 times more plastic. I would love organic qualities to become popular again but perhaps in an increasingly synthesised, plastic world it makes sense that people are increasingly responding to more machine-like music?
I don't think you are one coming from a perspective of disrespect; but if you feel 'guilty' who am I to say otherwise. lol

I hope it doesn't sound like we are being too harsh. But Pat Metheny has a very valid point whether you agree with it wholeheartedly or not. I think he really doesn't go into what he means enough and gets stuck on the commercialism of it all, perhaps he didn't realize it was all for charity.

I don't know that you would find Kenny G in the jazz section. In the Best Buy near me, the CD section is so small now but the jazz section has never been more than one small section of the shelf. There you would find David Sanborn, Fourplay, Diane Krall, Kind of Blue, and perhaps a copy of A Love Supreme or Time Out. I don't think the Wal-Mart or Target near me have a jazz section. That's where many people get their music and they find Kenny G in the pop section where he belongs, and where his easy listeners would look. They would never look for him in the jazz corner of the room.

Kenny G is easy listening and as you rightly pointed out, has more in common with Otis and than jazz. What really happened was that Smooth jazz took up the mantel left when Muzak fell out of favor in the early 80s. As Bob said, it was nice office music. It set the background but did not get in the way. It's nice; but ya gotta mix things up to keep them interesting.

I have to be honest though. You will find as much 'snobbery' in the listeners of Kenny G or David Sanborn as anywhere else. There is a reduction of all value to marketability and accessibility that becomes ludicrous quite quickly. I've had students who wonder why I am not attending the David Sanborn show, Why is my teacher who loves jazz not going to David Sanborn? Maybe he's not really a jazz aficionado after all. Or you're perceived as a snob just simply because you don't like music that really has not substantive interest.

Bruford talks about this with Earthworks. When the marketed the first CD they had that tune Up North, which could get Smooth Jazz airplay. They had major label interest because of that song; but the majors wanted them to do a whole album fixated on that one type of tune and he said 'no.' So he went with EG. God forbid you should do a tune in 5/4 or how about 19/8. Ya gotta mix things up to keep them interesting. You know that as much as any one.
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  #135  
Old 03-26-2010, 07:05 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

It's not really any genre causing it, but the whole music industry is folding up. I personally blame it on all the producers and so called industry experts that decide what we want to hear. Probably also because nothing has really changed in the past 20 year, too - no new developments, just the same old tired hip hop/rap, metal, techno pop and punk rock that has been around since the 1970s.. Technology too is changing and CD stores are going out of business left and right. We are in a real state of chaos and confusion. Maybe Kenny G and his elevator music will be the only sure steady jobs left out there.
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  #136  
Old 03-27-2010, 01:26 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Because Pat's simple logic of the whole situation seems painfully obvious to those coming from a similar point of view on it. Not just me but many others jazz musicians out there feel exactly the same and express a similar point of view about it either in public or in private.
Stan and Ken - since you are both coming from the same place I'll give a dual response,

Pat's logic is certainly simple - that the music scene is getting more artificial. Hardly an insight. Welcome to the 1980s ...

Pat appears to be saying, "We're as mad as hell and we're not going to take it any more!". Surely not ... not now. The horse bolted OVER 30 YEARS AGO. It's game set and match. The suits won. It's over. By attacking a business rival in that way he's acting like one of the suits IMO

If you want music created for love, with NO eye to the marketplace, then you have to actively search, as has been the case for a long time. It's out there but the music that comes to us in everyday life is usually the plastic stuff.

I am currently listening to Captain Beefheart's Bat Chain Puller). The music that really gives me a buzz has never been readily found on the radio anyway - on any station.

So in a way it's situation normal for me, which is maybe why I'm less miffed about it than some others. When you've always been an outsider it's hard to shed tears for those who feel they are gradually being marginalised. I used to find outsiderness saddening but it's ultimately liberating.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltadrummer
I don't know that you would find Kenny G in the jazz section. ... many people get their music and they find Kenny G in the pop section where he belongs, and where his easy listeners would look. They would never look for him in the jazz corner of the room.
Ken, since he's a crossover artist he will naturally appear sometimes here, sometimes there. From an online music retailer's website ...
Kenny G has single-handedly transformed jazz into a genre that actually sells records in numbers normally associated with modern pop stars (over 30 million sold so far). Unlike such Smooth Jazz pioneers as Grover...
See? It's just marketing BS. Many musicians refuse to be pigeon-holed and for good reason. Genre labels carry certain semantics that can give entirely the wrong impression. The semantic of "jazz" has changed as did "metal". Maybe metal has it right with their numerous micro-genres? That really helps their audience know what they are going to get. A jazzer can try to explain the difference between the sub genres but only the musically informed will get it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangelove
It's not really any genre causing it, but the whole music industry is folding up. I personally blame it on all the producers and so called industry experts that decide what we want to hear.
Well said, Doctor.

The majors wanted to squeeze out the independents - like major supermarkets setting up near a family-owned small business and undercutting them. There was a whole consumerism thing in the 70s/80s about upgrading your hi-fi to get great sound. It tied in with the record companies who saw the cash cow coming and raised the production bar. Suddenly it wasn't enough to get into a studio and play the songs and hope to get the magic take. You had to slice and dice it and process the music within an inch of its life. That can be cool in its way too, but it became compulsory.

Musos incurred huge studio debts they incurred and became tied to the label. All this raised the sonics bar to a level with which the indie labels couldn't compete. Then there was an expansion of pay-for-play radio. Bands were inconvenient and hard to control so the companies groomed beautiful "stars" with functional vocal ability. They found that backing them with drum machines and sequencers were easier to control and cheaper than live musos.

Now people's ears are conditioned to expect machine-like perfection. The beautiful rawness of Mitch Mitchell playing with Jimi would now be deemed "unprofessional" and "sloppy". It's way underground, a minority interest, just like a lot of jazz.

As I say, we live in an increasingly mechanised world and it almost seems apt that people are embracing increasingly mechanised music. To put it bluntly ...
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  #137  
Old 03-27-2010, 01:41 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Because Pat's simple logic of the whole situation seems painfully obvious to those coming from a similar point of view on it. Not just me but many others jazz musicians out there feel exactly the same and express a similar point of view about it either in public or in private.

To try and manipulate it to make it right by trying to discredit Pat M.'s valid point of view is just plain wrong in my books. I'm sure others feel the same whether they have the guts to call it out on a open forum is another question. I don't have any problem with that as you can see......
Nothing wrong with elevator music. Eventually all music hits the Musac scene. Even the Beatles. Racking up the royalties as they go. As long as somebody plays it they get paid.
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Old 03-27-2010, 02:00 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Nothing wrong with elevator music. Eventually all music hits the Musac scene. Even the Beatles. Racking up the royalties as they go. As long as somebody plays it they get paid.
Usually the record companies... does it always have to boil down be about money.....LOL!

Fine then.....waiting for the day when I walk into a elevator and hear Song X by Ornette Coleman playing over the speakers........waiting.....waiting........waiting ........:}

Why does everything have to be reduced to the ignore and background function for the listener?{elevator music}. Ties into more and more experiences i've had in clubs where people just jabber out loud about nothing the whole time no matter how good the music is on stage in front of them. We live in a ever increasingly detatched society in the way we interact with music i'm afraid the way we are currently trained and conditioned to view music. I was taught to listen to and respect the value of music growing up years back not to constantly ignore it or consider it as a mere "pleasant" background fodder experience. So many people don't like music they CAN"T ignore in our average society...believe that's part of the problem and evil allure of BG crap everywhere you go these days...no thought process or interaction to rock the happy boat. Teaches you NOT to listen or emotionally interact with the music and numbs and dumbs down what could be a more {hopefully} satisying musical experience. Danger Will Robinson...!!

Polly's right...times are a changing and not for the better in my book.
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  #139  
Old 03-27-2010, 02:33 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Ken, since he's a crossover artist he will naturally appear sometimes here, sometimes there. From an online music retailer's website ...
Kenny G has single-handedly transformed jazz into a genre that actually sells records in numbers normally associated with modern pop stars (over 30 million sold so far). Unlike such Smooth Jazz pioneers as Grover...
See? It's just marketing BS. Many musicians refuse to be pigeon-holed and for good reason. Genre labels carry certain semantics that can give entirely the wrong impression. The semantic of "jazz" has changed as did "metal". Maybe metal has it right with their numerous micro-genres? That really helps their audience know what they are going to get. A jazzer can try to explain the difference between the sub genres but only the musically informed will get it.
I've been the one arguing here for quite some time that genre is all marketing these days so you'll get no argument from me.

That statement in quotes above is just wrong, no matter how many times people say it, no matter who says it or where it is said. Kenny G has done nothing for jazz, G's music isn't a 'gateway genre' into the world of the higher jazz consciousness. lol

This is part of what Pat is getting at. If anything, it lowers the bar so that now there is this expectation that people write meandering mindless crap to make money and call it jazz. Then you put that artist on stage with Louis Armstrong, the progenitor of jazz, it's Fountainhead, its greatest proponent, one of the leading figures in the history of jazz and American music to validate this meandering crap. Someone says (and not just any one but one of jazz's leading figures) "hey, look this is crap and offensive to any one who has a serious interest in jazz." It's not about being arrogant or elitist, it is about someone with marginal talent actually thinking they could share the stage with Louis Armstrong. That is arrogant and elitist. Is stating that really so controversial, like you said, stating the obvious.

Standards are the 'gateway tunes' into the higher world of jazz consciousness. Music that is so accessible from Coltrane's rendition of My Favorite Things, Armstrong's West End Blues, Diz's Night in Tunisia, Parker's Confirmation, Jarrett's 25 min rendition of Autumn Leaves, So What? Blue Monk, Birdland, Mercy, Mercy Mercy. There was a marching band for the St Pat's Parade here in NY doing Mercy, Mercy, Mercy. Is Green Dolphin Street or All the Things You Are that inaccessible. Everybody even Pat Metheny has done them. If you want to learn classical music, you get a book of Scarlatti and Mozart piano sonatas. If you want to learn jazz you get a book of the standards.Then you listen to how artists have interpreted them and the other things that they have written and performed. You look for some of the historic recordings, you go to a couple of clubs and see whose hot.You could do thins all on youtube. Yeah, a real accessibility problem.
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Old 03-27-2010, 02:44 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Why does everything have to be reduced to the ignore and background function for the listener?{elevator music}. Ties into more and more experiences i've had in clubs where people just jabber out loud about nothing the whole time no matter how good the music is on stage in front of them. We live in a ever increasingly detatched society in the way we interact with music i'm afraid the way we are currently trained and conditioned to view music. I was taught to listen to and respect the value of music growing up years back not to constantly ignore it or consider it as a mere "pleasant" background fodder experience. So many people don't like music they CAN"T ignore in our average society...believe that's part of the problem and evil allure of BG crap everywhere you go these days...no thought process or interaction to rock the happy boat. Teaches you NOT to listen or emotionally interact with the music and numbs and dumbs down what could be a more {hopefully} satisying musical experience. Danger Will Robinson...!!

Polly's right...times are a changing and not for the better in my book.
You know the whole background thing is about safety, Stan. The minute you play music with any edge there will be someone to complain about it. That was my point about what to play if the boss and important client is coming over for dinner. Sure, if the boss is musically involved then Kenny will be bad for your cred, but a lot of people have no idea and if Kenny's in the background they won't even notice it, and it helps fill awkward spaces in conversations. Mission accomplished.

A few years ago at work I was playing Herbie's Cantaloupe Island and when it got intense I was asked to turn it off because it was distracting. So I put on some Eno.

I hate it when people yabber over music in jazz clubs. If it's a mediocre band, ok, but I've seen it during brilliant performances from genuine artists plenty of times. I should say that I was first annoyed by this in the 1970s. Most people are less into music than we are and for them live jazz either provides pleasant background and/or gives them a veneer of social sophistication.

Danger Will Robinson? lol alas, Dr Smith has been busy sabotaging the scene while we weren't looking. Now he's taken over command of the Jupiter II :(

Ken, no argument from me. Trouble is, Pat's decades late. It's not an insight. It's like railing about heavy traffic in London. All you can do is take the subway or walk instead.
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  #141  
Old 03-27-2010, 02:49 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

The other day I went into my little local record store to pick up a couple of CDs. I wasn't looking for anything in particular. I chose a Mingus record I didn't have and a Lee Morgan record that I'd listened to a lot but had lost my copy years ago.

The guy who runs the store is very, very knowledgable about all things jazz. He and I spent a happy half-hour chatting about the music. That's the main reason I go there, just to talk about the music with him.

The point is that it's all there. No matter how much the times may change jazz is still there, it's being composed and played as we speak, new records are being released and new artists are being discovered.

I reject the idea that it should matter to jazz musicians, or to any musicians, what it is that the public wants to hear. What matters is what you yourself want your life to be, what you want to do with it based on what you love, based on what presents the path that makes the most sense for you to follow.

If you're following that path with true intent then nobody can alter your course or make you change your mind, no more than you can change anyone else's mind about the path they've chosen.

The reward is always in the work you do. If you're doing that work right and you're happy doing it then you've made your life a succesful one.
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Old 03-27-2010, 03:05 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

May as well merge this with the Meg White and White Stripes thread.

Both Kenny G and White Stripes are regarded as dumbed down garbage created for the masses, yet somehow adored by their respective fans.

Same issues are in every genre.

I imagine die hard country fans were less than thrilled with Garth Brooks making the genre more pop-rock

As Polly mentioned, in the metal word, newer fans don't even consider the past greats metal anymore, meanwhile they listen to Lamb of God, whom I personally consider repetitive and dull compared to other choices out there.

Top 40? Used to be full of people who at lest played their instruments (even they were session musicians), now it's just people using auto tuned vocals over computer generated music. And it wins Grammys while selling millions.

As mentioned, even if listening to Kenny G was banned, people would move on to something else many of us would also consider drivel.

Quality artists have been ignored for decades over what's popular. Sure, we have the right to complain about it, but it doesn't change things. And in some cases, success has a way of ruining what we once thought was great about an artist, so be careful what you wish for.
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Old 03-27-2010, 03:24 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Quote from Stanley.....Usually the record companies... does it always have to boil down be about money.....LOL!

My comment was mostly tongue in cheek but lets face it. I don't care what you record, someone will like it and buy it. Anything. I remember hearing about a movie made once that was 24 hours long, and was strictly a movie camera on the street aimed up to the top of some building. That's it. How well did it sell? Don't know but it did. None of us will ever totally agree on any musical style, genre or performer, and let us just be happy that we have so many to choose from. There are so many more music forms now than when I was a teen and that is only, I say only, boohoo, forty years ago.
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Old 03-27-2010, 03:29 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Damn DED, I was with you all the way apart from the crack again the WS. I love 'em! There's no way they are equivalent to Kenny G. (haha, you knew I'd bite :)

The Kenny G equivalent would be "RnB" (by today's definition) - a boy band crooning about lurve and almost managing to sound sincere if you aurally squint. I liked it better when something like The Stones's Aint Too Proud To Beg was considered to be RnB.

You're right and it comes back to what I was saying about the freedom that comes with being an outsider - someone who calls their own shots and doesn't care about adhering to the party line. Once artists have been "welcomed to the machine" then they inevitably experience suit pressure. Where there be money, there be suits.

The message coming through in recent posts is, no matter how much stuff you don't like is out there, the good stuff is there too if you look for it. I can sympathise with those playing music for a living, though. If you're a jazzer you really don't want to be pressured to Kenny-ise your music. Wow, Kenny-ise could one day find its way into the urban dictionary :)
Kenny-ise v. (Kenny-ize, U.S.)
var. Kenny-ised; Kenny-ising; Kenny-isation

To render something (usually music) bland in order to improve accessibility.

Synonyms
: dumb down; neuter; boybandinate
Antonyms: spice up; revitalise

Example of usage: Cecil Taylor refused to Kenny-ise his music, despite intense pressure from the suits. He is now driving cabs.
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Old 03-27-2010, 04:25 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

That just for grins. Hold the locusts, please!

Hah hah hah! Bloody great! What a sacrilege!

Hey, Joey Ramone did a cover of that tune too. It's an outrage, I tell ya!
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Old 03-27-2010, 06:25 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Polly, do you think people are really embracing mechanized music, or more likely being force fed it by self proclaimed experts that think they know more about how to market music than anyone else? I suspect the latter, myself. I also think the mechanization of music is one reason it is dying on the vine. When we get computers laying down rythm tracks on pop songs and robots painting paintings, people will eventually notice it and want more human involvement. It may be a slow process, but look at how many areas already where handmade goods are much more sought after, with all their imperfections, than their mass produced perfect counterparts. Madonna even went back to a human drummer recently, imagine that. People will eventually get burned out on soul-less cookie cutter pop hooks, mark my words.
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Old 03-27-2010, 07:01 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

I never hear any one talking about how great John Hammond or Ahmet were because they told everyone what to play. lol
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Old 03-27-2010, 07:02 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
Damn DED, I was with you all the way apart from the crack again the WS. I love 'em! There's no way they are equivalent to Kenny G. (haha, you knew I'd bite :)

The Kenny G equivalent would be "RnB" (by today's definition) - a boy band crooning about lurve and almost managing to sound sincere if you aurally squint. I liked it better when something like The Stones's Aint Too Proud To Beg was considered to be RnB.

You're right and it comes back to what I was saying about the freedom that comes with being an outsider - someone who calls their own shots and doesn't care about adhering to the party line. Once artists have been "welcomed to the machine" then they inevitably experience suit pressure. Where there be money, there be suits.

The message coming through in recent posts is, no matter how much stuff you don't like is out there, the good stuff is there too if you look for it. I can sympathise with those playing music for a living, though. If you're a jazzer you really don't want to be pressured to Kenny-ise your music. Wow, Kenny-ise could one day find its way into the urban dictionary :)
Kenny-ise v. (Kenny-ize, U.S.)
var. Kenny-ised; Kenny-ising; Kenny-isation

To render something (usually music) bland in order to improve accessibility.

Synonyms
: dumb down; neuter; boybandinate
Antonyms: spice up; revitalise

Example of usage: Cecil Taylor refused to Kenny-ise his music, despite intense pressure from the suits. He is now driving cabs.
LOL! There it is! Funny as hell, and right on the money!
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Old 03-27-2010, 07:15 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

uhhh . .some of us might be offended by the use of that kind of verb. :P
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Old 03-27-2010, 11:34 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Cheers Mike :)

Ken, you could have used it when asked about the Grover Washington concert ... "No, I'm not going. I prefer jazz that's not so Kenny-ised. But if you know of any gigs that are more Milesated, let me know".

And don't forget the adjectival form - "Sorry, this band doesn't play Kenny-ish music".

I don't think there'd be much risk of confusion because I can't imagine too many Kenny fans being into South Park :)
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Old 03-27-2010, 03:14 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

There are purest followers for other forms of music that are angered when their fav band does a pop recording.
I spent about a year during the mid seventies following the Dead.
The purist members of that cult will not own a studio recorded Dead album.
I never understood them either.
Many of them have never listened to any other music that didn't have a member from the Dead playing on it.
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Old 03-27-2010, 03:16 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

I have discovered my problem and had not a clue. I must practice my aural squinting. Love the concept.
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Old 03-27-2010, 03:29 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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I have discovered my problem and had not clue. I must practice my aural squinting. Love the concept.
Like Shakespeare said, "The More I Wink My Eyes, The Better I See"
I guess that it also applies to the ear.
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Old 03-27-2010, 03:40 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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There are purest followers for other forms of music that are angered when their fav band does a pop recording.
I spent about a year during the mid seventies following the Dead.
The purist members of that cult will not own a studio recorded Dead album.
I never understood them either.
Many of them have never listened to any other music that didn't have a member from the Dead playing on it.
Bob, nothing like a bit of necrophilia, eh?

I was disappointed when The Tubes went commercial but I could understand their reasons - they had a super-expensive stage show and were too left-of-centre to keep the suits happy. The John Wetton started playing AOR with Asia but, again, he'd paid his dues and been involved in some great music so it was hard to begrudge his wish to be in a popular band.

GD, a bit of aural squinting helps (nice quote, Bob BTW) ... it can help you enjoy music that you'd otherwise find a drag. Just as long as you can turn it on and off; if it's habitual it becomes too easy to miss the juicy stuff in quality performances.

It's like suspension of disbelief in movies with preposterous plots and thin character development but are a fun ride if you don't take it seriously (eg. Avatar).

I have never been able to aurally squint hard enough to enjoy boy bands, though. I find those groups are most fun with the sound turned off ...
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Old 03-27-2010, 03:52 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Bob, nothing like a bit of necrophilia, eh?

..
The real show at a Dead concert was always the audience!
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Old 03-27-2010, 05:58 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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The real show at a Dead concert was always the audience!
lol ... I can almost imagine.

Did they play What a Wunnerful Woild? :)
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Old 03-27-2010, 06:06 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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. Wow, Kenny-ise could one day find its way into the urban dictionary :)
Kenny-ise v. (Kenny-ize, U.S.)
var. Kenny-ised; Kenny-ising; Kenny-isation

To render something (usually music) bland in order to improve accessibility.

Synonyms
: dumb down; neuter; boybandinate
Antonyms: spice up; revitalise

Example of usage: Cecil Taylor refused to Kenny-ise his music, despite intense pressure from the suits. He is now driving cabs.
I thought that was called Pat Boone syndrome? :-P
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Old 03-27-2010, 06:08 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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The real show at a Dead concert was always the audience!
I only went to one Greatful dead concert, because someone gave me a free ticket. And yeah, all I remember was the audience. I'd never seen so many people just stoned out of their minds in one place before! And how many people were more interested in getting stoned that actually paying attention to the band itself.
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Old 03-27-2010, 06:56 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Why does everything have to be reduced to the ignore and background function for the listener?{elevator music}. Ties into more and more experiences i've had in clubs where people just jabber out loud about nothing the whole time no matter how good the music is on stage in front of them. We live in a ever increasingly detatched society in the way we interact with music i'm afraid the way we are currently trained and conditioned to view music......believe that's part of the problem and evil allure of BG crap everywhere you go these days...no thought process or interaction to rock the happy boat. ....
Polly's right...times are a changing and not for the better in my book.
One one hand, I completely agree.
It makes me near ill when I read autobiographies of musicians from past eras who just took up drums, and found paying work, because everywhere had live bands. While today, a drummer is about as relevant as a 5th wheel on a car in so many situations. So many bands would just assume use a drum machine, so many clubs would just assume have DJ, and so many people think the DJ is a musician because he/she mixed together some pre-recorded files together. It's rather sick for someone who prefers real music. I often think it would have been better to have been born in a different era to have been a part of better musical experiences.

But in grand scheme of history, these eras were talking about are not that long ago, nor very long. The United States has been around sine 1776, but the drum set only since approx 1890. England has been a formal country for over 1000 years, but traditional jazz is only about 100 years old (give or take).

In the grand scheme of music history, from the 1st Gregorian chants, and when tribesmen first realized they could make music by banding on hollow logs, these "traditions" we are discussing are only blips in musical history. People existed for thousands of years before they ever head a jazz standard, people existed for thousands of years before they ever heard Beethovan.

In the art world, "Modern Art" is usually anything from around 1900 to now, while the traditional stuff is hundred upon hundreds of years old. In literature, modern literature is usually considered anything written in the last 100 years, while traditional literature is Shakespeare from 1589 and 1613, or at least Mark Twain, who wrote his best known books well before anyone played the 1st notes of what we call jazz.


So, compared to nearly every other artistic endeavor, jazz is still a modern art form, not a tradition.

What we call "jazz standards" would not be called "old" or "standard" in many other artistic fields.

So while I may cry and lament over what I consider real music fading away, being replaced by lesser forms, in the grand scheme of music history, I'm pinning over a mere blip in the history books. Keep in mind, rock and roll, jazz, and even Mozart, were once considered the rebellious music of youth, replacing what was considered the traditional music of the time. If the internet existed in 1910's, I'm sure there would be forum where someone was complaining about all these new jazz guys playing this new fangled music who don't respect tradition.

If you think it's sad that people don't listen to Coltrane anymore, think about the poor sap writing folk music in the 1500's would feel, knowing that few people give his style the time of day, and knowing no one bothered to write his name down as the author of so many songs that only get played at renaissance faires!
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Old 03-27-2010, 07:27 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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One one hand, I completely agree.
It makes me near ill when I read autobiographies of musicians from past eras who just took up drums, and found paying work, because everywhere had live bands. While today, a drummer is about as relevant as a 5th wheel on a car in so many situations. So many bands would just assume use a drum machine, so many clubs would just assume have DJ, and so many people think the DJ is a musician because he/she mixed together some pre-recorded files together. It's rather sick for someone who prefers real music. I often think it would have been better to have been born in a different era to have been a part of better musical experiences.

But in grand scheme of history, these eras were talking about are not that long ago, nor very long. The United States has been around sine 1776, but the drum set only since approx 1890. England has been a formal country for over 1000 years, but traditional jazz is only about 100 years old (give or take).

In the grand scheme of music history, from the 1st Gregorian chants, and when tribesmen first realized they could make music by banding on hollow logs, these "traditions" we are discussing are only blips in musical history. People existed for thousands of years before they ever head a jazz standard, people existed for thousands of years before they ever heard Beethovan.

In the art world, "Modern Art" is usually anything from around 1900 to now, while the traditional stuff is hundred upon hundreds of years old. In literature, modern literature is usually considered anything written in the last 100 years, while traditional literature is Shakespeare from 1589 and 1613, or at least Mark Twain, who wrote his best known books well before anyone played the 1st notes of what we call jazz.


So, compared to nearly every other artistic endeavor, jazz is still a modern art form, not a tradition.

What we call "jazz standards" would not be called "old" or "standard" in many other artistic fields.

So while I may cry and lament over what I consider real music fading away, being replaced by lesser forms, in the grand scheme of music history, I'm pinning over a mere blip in the history books. Keep in mind, rock and roll, jazz, and even Mozart, were once considered the rebellious music of youth, replacing what was considered the traditional music of the time. If the internet existed in 1910's, I'm sure there would be forum where someone was complaining about all these new jazz guys playing this new fangled music who don't respect tradition.

If you think it's sad that people don't listen to Coltrane anymore, think about the poor sap writing folk music in the 1500's would feel, knowing that few people give his style the time of day, and knowing no one bothered to write his name down as the author of so many songs that only get played at renaissance faires!

That wasn't the point I was trying to get across but made for a interesting take and read. Thanks!

My point was we are more and more being conditioned and trained to treat music as a form a mere background fooder with developing less and less skills on how to interact with actual live music and its musicians performing it on the listener end. Even in all the times frames you mentioned yes social background music of one form or another has coexisted at the same time as formal, tribal or concert hall, club, pub etc... music...sometimes providing the same social function at the same time in some cases.

Today the attempt is being made by the marketing suits {love the reference Polly!} to reduce music to a social form of a pure background/ ignore function and "drug and sedate" the listener without any listener interaction or challenges on that recieving end..... Polly calls it the safe place or zone...I call it a evil form of a "comfort" zone. That was my point on "elevator music" which is becoming more of the standard "norm" in general society.
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