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  #361  
Old 04-02-2010, 05:45 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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One up, one down for me, Bob. I'm a simple guy. I fish, I swim, I build fires.
I'm simpler still - just one up. I surf the net, play tennis and drink cappuccinos. As a cougar, I limit my hunting to humans. As a very lazy cougar, I limit my hunting full-stop.

On a more serious note, the recent discord is a result of a misunderstanding between two intelligent, thinking guys.
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  #362  
Old 04-02-2010, 05:50 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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This has been a beautiful day, and this evening I took a beer out to the back yard and I looked at all the trees turning green and listened to the birds singing, and I decided to make a fire.

We have a big oak tree in our back yard and there were a lot of branches that had been blown off during the winter, so I took those branches, broke them up and made a fire.

I sat out there as the sun went down, until all I could see were the silhouettes of the trees against the grey-blue sky. It was so quite and peaceful, and I tended my fire and drank my beer and I said to myself, "what a wonderful world."
I do this kind of thing often, It keeps me from hijacking an airplane and flying it into a tall building!
Was their a woodpecker in your yard? Last week there was one in mine, I hadn't seen a woodpecker in a long time! It was cool!
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  #363  
Old 04-02-2010, 05:55 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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I do this kind of thing often, It keeps me from hijacking an airplane and flying it into a tall building!
Was their a woodpecker in your yard? Last week there was one in mine, I hadn't seen a woodpecker in a long time! It was cool!
I saw a woodpecker once in our yard. It was a lot bigger than I though woodpeckers would be. But that was the only time.

The birds we get, I don't know what kind they are, anyway they sing pitches, little melodies, and I was singing back to them, well whistling back to them, as I sat by my fire.

I highly recommend that, whistling with the birds. It's a pointless thing to do, of course, but it's also a very happy thing to do.
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  #364  
Old 04-02-2010, 05:58 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Just came back from a very enjoyable jazz session playing my big hook Epoch ride at 3025g with my favorite pair of Canadian rock maple of sticks....damn amazing sounding ride cymbal..... completely sublime experience! Amazing on fire tenor solos Danny!

Oh had a nice shot of vodka too Bob by the way my friend!

Back to the regular scheduled program sorry folks..........
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  #365  
Old 04-02-2010, 06:02 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Stan, those are beautiful pies indeed!
Jay, Keep watching those birds! They know more that you think!
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  #366  
Old 04-02-2010, 06:07 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Jay, Keep watching those birds! They know more that you think!
"The birds in every tree
Are all so neighborly,
They sing wherever I go.
I guess I'm just a lucky so and so."
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  #367  
Old 04-02-2010, 06:09 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Stan always has the nicest cymbals.

I saw Mike Clark a while back and he had his Agops. I told him I thought those were some nice cymbals. :)

I always see the Mel Lewis 18' up on ebay, and it goes for about 150.00 used I've been thinking of getting one of those.
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  #368  
Old 04-02-2010, 06:11 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Stan, those are beautiful pies indeed!
!
Thanks!...pure nasty trashy jazz indeed is that pie Bob. It and a few shots of vodka my friend...say no more on feeling the "jazz".... :}
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  #369  
Old 04-02-2010, 06:15 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Stan always has the nicest cymbals.

I saw Mike Clark a while back and he had his Agops. I told him I thought those were some nice cymbals. :)

I always see the Mel Lewis 18' up on ebay, and it goes for about 150.00 used I've been thinking of getting one of those.

Thanks Ken! Helps me with my "jazz" persona....:}

Mike's a fellow Agop endorser now Ken.

Smokin deal on the 18" Mel at that price by the way!
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  #370  
Old 04-02-2010, 06:53 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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"The birds in every tree
Are all so neighborly,
They sing wherever I go.
I guess I'm just a lucky so and so."
The birds will light your way my friend, the birds will light your way! Follow the birds, You will see! The birds will set you free! You think that I am joking? I am not!
You will have to trust me on this one, Am I joking? Am I not? Am I joking? Am I not!
I have seen what others have not seen! I have seen what others pretend to see!
Soon you will see! Nature will set you free!
You have studied literature, correct? Find the meaning in my post. That will guide you as it has guided me.
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  #371  
Old 04-02-2010, 06:57 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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The birds will light your way my friend, the birds will light your way! Follow the birds, You will see! The birds will set you free! You think that I am joking? I am not!
You will have to trust me on this one, Am I joking? Am I not? Am I joking? Am I not!
I have seen what others have not seen! I have seen what others pretend to see!
Soon you will see! Nature will set you free!
You have studied literature, correct? Find the meaning in my post. That will guide you as it has guided me.
This says it all Bob.......... :}

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pS12qsl6wxM
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  #372  
Old 04-02-2010, 07:03 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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This says it all Bob.......... :}

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pS12qsl6wxM
I don't remember that one. JA is gong to be in the city next week. I may go. He gives me funny looks because I sing the back-up vocals to his songs under my breadth. But people say in Europe everyone does that.

Here's a classic :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0J77...os=uPCtuBQGILM
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  #373  
Old 04-02-2010, 09:08 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Ok, I'm confused. You Yanks are on the different planet!
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  #374  
Old 04-02-2010, 11:58 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Ok, I'm confused. You Yanks are on the different planet!
It's okay, me too. This thing went off the rails.
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  #375  
Old 04-02-2010, 12:19 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Jay, I know that right from the beginning you and I knew what Abe was up to!
We've been swinging through most of the thread just fine, Bob... this here now is the free jazz section of the thread. ( Polly, just hold your breath and hang in there.. the 1 will come..trust me ). In the meantime just enjoy the oak fire goats that hunt Istanbul cymbals when they're not fishing or swimming.

I think I'll title my next jazz thread " Can Jazz be discussed? "

PS- Interesting aside on on the genre boundary/abuse thing: Here's a German band called Panzer Ballet which describe their music as Progressive Metaljazz and cite Celine Dion and David Hasselhoff as some of their influences: http://www.myspace.com/panzerballett They are worth a listen.

...

Last edited by aydee; 04-02-2010 at 01:59 PM.
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  #376  
Old 04-02-2010, 04:12 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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We've been swinging through most of the thread just fine, Bob... this here now is the free jazz section of the thread. ( Polly, just hold your breath and hang in there.. the 1 will come..trust me ). In the meantime just enjoy the oak fire goats that hunt Istanbul cymbals when they're not fishing or swimming.

I think I'll title my next jazz thread " Can Jazz be discussed? "
How about " Can Jazz be discussed in less than 2,895,732 words? " :)

That sounds kind of mythic ... waiting for The One.
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  #377  
Old 04-02-2010, 05:35 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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We've been swinging through most of the thread just fine, Bob... this here now is the free jazz section of the thread. ( Polly, just hold your breath and hang in there.. the 1 will come..trust me ). In the meantime just enjoy the oak fire goats that hunt Istanbul cymbals when they're not fishing or swimming.

I think I'll title my next jazz thread " Can Jazz be discussed? "



PS- Interesting aside on on the genre boundary/abuse thing: Here's a German band called Panzer Ballet which describe their music as Progressive Metaljazz and cite Celine Dion and David Hasselhoff as some of their influences: http://www.myspace.com/panzerballett They are worth a listen.

...
Why does this stuff always sound like one of Fripp's incarnations of Crimson? :) Well if they had Holdsworth on guitar.


my question would be "can anything be discussed?" I certainly don't think it can be around here.

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Ok, I'm confused. You Yanks are on the different planet!

Bob and Jay decided the discussion was getting too intense so they took at the 'magic hippie juice.'
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  #378  
Old 04-02-2010, 05:41 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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my question would be "can anything be discussed?"
Sure. Sticks. I play about 6 different varieties.. Thats not normal.
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  #379  
Old 04-03-2010, 01:02 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

It's pushing midnight here in Bucharest and I just finished my gig and headed over to a US State Department jazz concert at the Art Jazz club here in mid town. The reason for mentioning this will be explained shortly. I've been following this bizarre thread since its inception and on at least two occasions I thought about writing an explanation about the origin of the term Smooth Jazz and its relationship with the Muzak Corporation and that company's longstanding affiliation with public radio stations, while subsequently going into the whole Kenny G hatred thing, because the reasons for people's negative feelings about him really are directly tied together, and yeah he is responsible for some negative stuff .

But I said no, why stir the pot?

Then someone pmd me and reminded that there are 4000 people who have read this thread, 99.5% of them not having written a single comment. As said here a million times, we contributors on drum forums are merely actors in a little stage play that is viewed daily by thousands of invisible people who either agree with us or think we are nuts. This stuff is never a living room discussion with a half dozen bantering side to side. And yes, there are times for good or bad, when far too many people actually take what we say as expert opinion when more often than not it's no even close. With that said, I think now that I will go ahead with that treatise sometime after Easter and let the chips fall where they may.

But for now I'd like to address this overused excuse for everything jazz snob issue.

Tonight I watched a program of decent musicians play straight ahead mainstream jazz. They swung nicely and showcased the blue tinged American sound/and yeah you can tell the difference/. They played standard fare, their playing paid cliched homage to Charlie Parker and Monk, and it was sold to the supposed poor unwashed Eastern Europeans as the real jazz.They wore coats and ties, announced their music in patented phrases, and talked to the audience like they were ignorant children attending their first music concert, when right accross the street was one of the most underrated concert halls in Europe, built in 1888 and christened by Richard Wagner himself.

Still the main selling point for the diplomats in the audience who had never listened to 5 minutes of the mostly superior jazz played by the Romanians who usually frequent that club and represent that group's music best was that this band today...

...was from New York.

During their set break, these arrogant fools made fun of all experimental music, all post Love Supreme Coltrane, and of course every shard of Miles Davis music recorded after In a Silent Way, while to them that recording was only partially acceptable because if you follow the psycho snob mantra we're all supposed to know that Miles was a sell out on half that album too. When I told them I was from North Carolina they thought that was also funny. Then they started making fun of their own kind from Queens and Brooklyn, stating that the real stuff only comes from the island, and only a small part of Manhattan at that. Then when some of the best jazz musicians in Europe politely came forward to compliment and shake hands these guys just rolled their eyes, then laughed at them when their backs were turned.

The drummer was a good player and just a few years older than me. I really wanted to like him, but he just couldn't wipe the smirk off his face. Lost cause, I thought.

Worse were the tragically hip entourage they had in tow, aficiando snobs all, who are as a group without question the most arrogantly ignorant people ever to walk on two legs and in my opinion the biggest reason for the negative stigma its detractors have for jazz. Yeah jazz needs a loyal audience, but we don't need that.

Are most New York jazz guys like this?

No. In fact they probably represent no more than 10% of all the jazz played there. Unfortunately some of them are quite famous. However, in the case of these so called cultural ambassadors, if they were to be categorized they would fall into the classification of talented wannabes.

Too bad these are the kind who get the most attention. And it's too bad they fit snugly into the stereotype the other crowd wants to see in those they are not presisposed to like before the conversation has even started.

I didn't stay for the second set, although I got in for free.

Now that's what jazz snobs truly are.

In my five years of active participation on this forum I have only seen two guys who would fall into this classification. One of them is a very serious player who no longer regularly posts here. He has some personal negative insights he can't often contain, and frequently irritates other jazz musicians too. But the guy is a fantastic musician. The other so called real jazz snob was really just a pretender, who showed up here for a while using the recording of a single gig made years ago as his basis for all things, while his recordings in an erratic pop punk band were at least to me strangely dissimilar, stylistic considerations aside. He talked a big game, then mostly slithered away after an embarrassing thread that kind of exposed some obvious weaknesses, the same way he once had after essentially being laughed off a jazz forum where he had tried to waste 10 years of everyone's time.

No one on this thread is a jazz snob/ not a single one. And that includes the talented jazz drummer here playing his usual counter snob routine, when he's really just playing everyone on this thread like he has so many other times elsewhere on the Internet, and for reasons I've never entirely understood. I've found it as always fascinating how quickly a certain few will leap on that jazz snob term to solve any number of personal issues.

Stan a jazz snob? Are you kidding me? If you want to take that craggy dirt road you're going to need some new tires. All he ever tries to say here is that he knows what he's talking about because when he plays every single day, it's with a band of world class jazz musicians who get paid. That entirely accurate statement is almost always followed with a Who do you think you are? How dare you? tone.

You'll have to do a lot better than that guys.
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  #380  
Old 04-03-2010, 01:28 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Thanks for your input Matt;

In a rage of sanity. I saw this guy I know from work today. He is a amateur musician with a really solid ear. He doesn't read music but I have played with him before and he gets the job done. His level and 'intellectual sophistication' with music is moot. He speaks from the gut.

I know he is a big Kenny G spot fan. I mentioned we were discussing the Pat Metheny criticism of Kenny G; he had never heard of the criticism. But what was even funnier, was that he has never heard anybody say that Kenny G was jazz. He didn't know that people considered it 'jazz.' He has seen him several times and always really enjoyed it; He always has a great band; but and these are his words. "When I think of jazz, I think of guys who can really play like Coltrane and Parker. I know you really like that stuff; but I am not really as familiar with it because that stuff is too out there for me. But that''s what I would consider jazz." He looked at me and said, "What did I say. did I say something wrong. I'm sorry, do you think Kenny G is jazz, did I offend you." I said to him, "No I am just a little bit in disbelief at the moment of sanity you've just given me. "
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  #381  
Old 04-03-2010, 02:50 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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I
No one on this thread is a jazz snob/ not a single one. And that includes the talented jazz drummer here playing his usual counter snob routine, when he's really just playing everyone on this thread like he has so many other times elsewhere on the Internet, and for reasons I've never entirely understood. I've found it as always fascinating how quickly a certain few will leap on that jazz snob term to solve any number of personal issues.
True.

And if you do a search on this thread for the word snob, no one called anyone else in thread a snob.

Which sort of makes me wonder why anyone feels the need to defensive over it, because the term wasn't used toward anyone.
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Old 04-03-2010, 03:09 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

What exactly is a snob, I asked myself? So I looked it up on the internet and here's what I found:

snob–noun

1. A person who imitates, cultivates, or slavishly admires social superiors and is condescending or overbearing to others.

2. A person who believes himself or herself an expert or connoisseur in a given field and is condescending toward or disdainful of those who hold other opinions or have different tastes regarding this field: a musical snob.

And I find it interesting that the example for the second definition would be "musical snob." So anyway that's what I found when I looked snob up on the internet.
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  #383  
Old 04-03-2010, 03:16 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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What exactly is a snob, I asked myself? So I looked it up on the internet and here's what I found:

snob–noun

1. A person who imitates, cultivates, or slavishly admires social superiors and is condescending or overbearing to others.

2. A person who believes himself or herself an expert or connoisseur in a given field and is condescending toward or disdainful of those who hold other opinions or have different tastes regarding this field: a musical snob.

And I find it interesting that the example for the second definition would be "musical snob." So anyway that's what I found when I looked snob up on the internet.

That is funny . .

Anyway, I was called a snob. I am so uncouth and uncultivated that it is kind of a compliment.
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Old 04-03-2010, 03:20 AM
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That is funny . .

Anyway, I was called a snob. I am so uncouth and uncultivated that it is kind of a compliment.
My wife calls me a musical snob. She also calls me a "muso." That's a British term for musical snob.

But she loves me!
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  #385  
Old 04-03-2010, 03:48 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

I'm a bit of a beer snob.

I thought I was a bit of a coffee snob, until I met some people who were much more snobby about their coffee than I could ever be. heh....

I loathe a lot of cheesy music, but I admit, there is some cheesy music I really like.

Just if you serve wine and cheese, I'd prefer a beer if at all possible, but I'll drink the wine if not.
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Old 04-03-2010, 04:08 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

I'm not snobbish at all but then I get accused of lacking standards.

Ken, bear in mind that there are oodles of comments on Kenny's YouTubes praising him for playing such beautiful "jazz". Of course, it would be weird if public perception was homogeneous but, then again, no one would call Metallica's music jazz.
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Old 04-03-2010, 04:28 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

ahhh. pet metheny's live gig looks pretty fun. i watched a kenny G video, it reminded me of titanic for some reason. it's not that i hated it, but that isn't what the word jazz brings to my mind. i thought it would be something more like this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjwVwASlVn4

if i'm honest i don't listen to jazz as much as i should, but i do get to hear jazz-type-stuff when i get in my friends car (he plays sax). he likes weather report, which is cool. though i guess they aren't considered jazz (fusion?).

imo it seems a bit rude to assume that jazz has more snobs than other genres. i've followed 'metal' for years, but some of the people that talk about it are crazy annoying. including some of the musicians.
i don't really know what i'm talking about when it comes to jazz which is why i don't post in threads with the word 'jazz' in the title. i find it's usually better to spectate than take part.. to each their own.
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  #388  
Old 04-03-2010, 04:42 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Loved Matt's story.....

Reminds me of a firsthand encounter I had with a real true jazz snob from back east who was backing a big name from the States at last years international jazz fest that I was playing the opening spot for with a very good Canadian group. The dimissive attitude and general who are you at the soundcheck was talked about from the other guys in the band for weeks after. Truly high level snobbery at its finest...

How did I deal with it? Simple after a few nasty comments thrown my way about how distracting it was for me to start preparing my kit backstage for our soundcheck which the backup group had already gone WAY into on OUR time at this point I said fine and waited till the jerk got over himself and his superiority issues to continue on after he finally spit.

Want to know how it played out later? After a smokin set and a big drum feature in our opening set all sly grins and smiles of "i'm a jazz player of real true distinction over you" directed my way quickly turned to a very grumpy drummer hanging over a amp backstage who's face and body expressions clearly said it all. Lesson learned that I learned long ago and guess who taught me it Pat Metheny in a wonderful conversation we had when I met him backstage as a panel judge at a performance with a Canadian band I was in back in 88 at the Montreal Jazz Fest..... interesting.

Moral of the story....stay humble, treat people nice and ditch the attitude and always remember to just believe in yourself and keep it real at your personal best and acknowlege there's many more doing the exact same thing out there...many you'll never meet with many having something to offer you can learn from to add to your own playing experience down the road. No room for snobbery or superior attitude issues over others but at the same time that doesn't mean you can't be firm and vocal about what you really believe in and what you stand up for in the music you love...there's a BIG difference in my view between the two mindsets and approaches to both being a person and for the respect of the music you love as a musician which can be a passionate POV and a insecure real jazz snob in contrast.
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Old 04-03-2010, 05:12 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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I'm not snobbish at all but then I get accused of lacking standards.

Ken, bear in mind that there are oodles of comments on Kenny's YouTubes praising him for playing such beautiful "jazz". Of course, it would be weird if public perception was homogeneous but, then again, no one would call Metallica's music jazz.
Polly, we've seen that Metallica can be smoothed jazz, and I know it could be 'jazzed.' :)

I like little Metallica with my eggs and bacon in the morning. Gets me going. My eggs are jazzed enough, I don't need my Metalllica jazzed as well. :)


Stan's story reminds me that often when you play at venues where there are several bands coming on one after the other, you meet the drummers who are really snide. I always give the drummer, and the band, before me praise and the one that follows me a good word. Most guys say, "no one ever does that." And I've never had any drummer that followed me tell me I played well.
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Old 04-03-2010, 03:45 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Polly, we've seen that Metallica can be smoothed jazz, and I know it could be 'jazzed.' :)

I like little Metallica with my eggs and bacon in the morning. Gets me going. My eggs are jazzed enough, I don't need my Metalllica jazzed as well. :)


Stan's story reminds me that often when you play at venues where there are several bands coming on one after the other, you meet the drummers who are really snide. I always give the drummer, and the band, before me praise and the one that follows me a good word. Most guys say, "no one ever does that." And I've never had any drummer that followed me tell me I played well.
Ken sorry, but I doubt that those eggs are really jazzed. That's faux jazzed eggs. Different animal entirely :)

Come to think of it, I don't remember much interaction with other drummers at those multiple band gigs.

I vaguely remember a couple of quick, friendly exchanges during the changeovers (my memories of them are hazy and it was probably the roadies - lol).

The only flak I remember copping was from the fading rock star who told me that our band was totally f****d after our set. I can't remember clearly but we most likely had a sloppy night :) But then again, he'd become a hopeless alcoholic. He then went on stage, completely off his brain - he played bum notes, forgot arrangements sang horribly out of tune. Sad really - he was great in his heyday. Guess it went to his head.

Now that you mention it, the multi-band gigs were weirdly anti-social. I think it was that status thing where the band before us was "lesser", just as we were "lesser" than the band following. Bone-headed childish attitudes in hindsight. Guess we were all bone-headedly childish :)

During the punk era my weird band formed some friendships with punk and new wave groups we gigged with. We were neither punk nor new wave but since we were clearly not "establishment" we were accepted. There wasn't that competitive side at all in that scene - everyone was just out to enjoy themselves. A few of those people went on to do well for themselves in music too.
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Old 04-03-2010, 04:53 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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True.

And if you do a search on this thread for the word snob, no one called anyone else in thread a snob.
Yeah I get that. After the edits, if I were to do a search today , you would find that no one currently calls anyone a jazz snob. Sure, now there's only the pointed personal attacks stereotypically attached to the term jazz snob remaining after the phrases were eliminated over the past 3 days/not by you/. But again/because I want to be totally fair here/ if I were to use the search engine/ at this very second/ to locate two words/in this case jazz and snob/ within the context of a single post, I would in fact discover that everything in my post had been strangely out of context, because as of today at 4:55 Eastern European time, there is no evidence of these terms existing other than those I have used to disingenuously marginialize a contrary opinion.

I watched that gimmick over at MX for years. There's nothing new about it.

Moreover, pointing out the obvious has never made anyone in a real life situation defensive, merely someone who points out the obvious. Only on the Internet is this gimmick even used, because it would never fly in a face to face encounter.

No defensiveness at all fellas. just keepin it real.

In the meantime, I'll just pop on my copy of David Sanborn's Smile. Now that's some smooth jazz. Funny though how that was once called crossover fusion. More later.
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Old 04-03-2010, 07:07 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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I like little Metallica with my eggs and bacon in the morning. Gets me going. My eggs are jazzed enough, I don't need my Metalllica jazzed as well. :)
Mmm...Metallica and breakfast....


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Old 04-03-2010, 07:39 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

oh my DED, do you do this professionally? haha!
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Old 04-04-2010, 03:07 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Moreover, pointing out the obvious has never made anyone in a real life situation defensive, merely someone who points out the obvious.
What is the obvious that has been pointed out in this thread?
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Old 04-04-2010, 07:44 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

All due respect, I don't think there any mis-understanding or name calling going on here.

Almost everyone in this thread agrees Kenny G is crap, the only disagreement is over how to classify just how much of crap it is.
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Old 04-04-2010, 08:57 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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Almost everyone in this thread agrees Kenny G is crap, the only disagreement is over how to classify just how much of crap it is
I don't think Kenny is crap, although I might use that term as short hand in conversation at times. He and his band are skilled musicians, just that the music is way too bland and shallow for my tastes. Kenny's stuff is all about twee romance - like one of those dime a dozen rom coms.

That's why WAWW was used - because it's the same thing, just as twee as the G Man. So it was an apt choice, just that the jazz community looked at his efforts in symbolic terms. The only thing that lame song had going for it was Satchmo's wonderful gravel, along with the kind of sentiment that we all feel when the rose coloured glasses are on.

Really, it's not smooth jazz so much as smooth fusion, anyway. It's a close cousin to some of the blander music of Pat, Larry Carlton, Stan Getz etc.
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Old 04-04-2010, 10:18 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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I don't think Kenny is crap, although I might use that term as short hand in conversation at times. He and his band are skilled musicians, just that the music is way too bland and shallow for my tastes. Kenny's stuff is all about twee romance - like one of those dime a dozen rom coms.

That's why WAWW was used - because it's the same thing, just as twee as the G Man. So it was an apt choice, just that the jazz community looked at his efforts in symbolic terms. The only thing that lame song had going for it was Satchmo's wonderful gravel, along with the kind of sentiment that we all feel when the rose coloured glasses are on.

Really, it's not smooth jazz so much as smooth fusion, anyway. It's a close cousin to some of the blander music of Pat, Larry Carlton, Stan Getz etc.

That's the whole thing. It's not whether or not it's good music. It is whether or not it's jazz.

What are the implications of expecting jazz musicians to sell 5,000,000 copies every time they put out an album. Well, it is going to delude the genre because most of these artists do not sell like that and they never did.

The question is What is jazz and Who gets to define it? Of course ultimately that has to be defined by the artists not by a label head telling you to play your music over Louie Armstrong. I know the three of us are in agreement on that from your recent posts. Should have brought in the Henry Cow earlier Polly. :)

People get caught up in the jazz snob bias, or in other words, jazz was a popular music and now jazz snobs look down on popular music or else they argue that you really can't have an objective opinion about music because everyone listens to what they love. But as Stan said, oh once or twice in these threads, those people usually do not have any investment in the music. I was more eloquent and said those people were talking crap. "You can take the boy out of Brooklyn . . .but . . . If you go down that road, you'd have to ask why jazz guys like Bird, Monk and Evans didn't write more popular ditties. Well, Evans wrote Waltz for Debbie. Beautiful tune. Never reached the top 20. Listen to the Johnny Hartmann version. Tony Bennett also recorded it with Evans.

People believe jazz is not popular because jazzers are biased against popular music; but I gave two examples of jazz players, Brad Meldhau Wonderwall and Joshua Redman The Crunge who have worked with popular tunes. People could seek that out if they really want to hear current popular standards done by jazz musicians?

Doesn't get anymore pop than any of this.

There's Jazzentine cover of Nothing Else Matters
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jscBpOUl7FY

or Casandra Wilson's cover of Last Train to Clarksvlle or .(or Time After Time http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySVWeao57m8 )

Vanessa Rubin Sting's It's Probably Me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLfOo...ext=2&index=16

Diana Krall Temptation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NdJFmyLmMo

Kurt Ehrling Undun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_Bk35_f4yI

Gretchen Parlato Bjork Come to Me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPIrK6a_YMs

Kevin Mahogony I'm Walkin'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mjgnc...feature=relate


From the pop side . .and listen to those musicians.
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Old 04-04-2010, 10:46 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Thing is, what are the qualities of jazz that define jazz? A lot of people just think of music lead by a sax or trumpet, or like your friend they just think of it as bop.

There's a heap of overlap. Bop bands have long included includes Latin tunes and I've heard many jazzified version of pop tunes (eg. Eleanor Rigby) and TV shows (the Odd Couple, the Flintstones - which Wy tells me had Earl Palmer on drums).

Then Miles and co did the straight 8 thing. Some said it wasn't jazz, but it was miles [sic] closer to jazz than rock. Then you had the fusion bands - heaps of 'em - from the radical like the MO and RTF, to the more radical Canterbury scene with Soft machine, Hatfield and the North and Henry Cow, to the funky - Herbie, to the smooth and funky - Larry Carlton, Lee Ritenour, and things shifted further from jazz again with pop crossover - Steelies, BS&T and Chicago.

Unless you look at the swing and jazz ballad people, jazz is generally associated with instrumental music.

I'm just thinking aloud here - I don't have a clue lol
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Old 04-04-2010, 11:49 AM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

The thing is in order to define jazz we would need to find the "Number One Tune that Defines Jazz." Let's get Abe.

they're good questions, Polly.

Since many players don't want to define it, you run into the problem not only of how to define it but whether or not it can or should be defined. We're all to familiar with that. One persons jazz is going to be different than another person's jazz. It is such a wide and varied genre. Unless you decide that you are going to get over the hump as a group and talk about it in that context, then their is no use going further because someone is always going to raise an objection, and in essence that is what has happened in this thread. Whose to say Kenny G is not jazz? you would have to recognize Metheny's criticism as a valid one before you could talk about jazz as a genre, and there is not even a consensus on that.

The next question is, why is it important to define it? Matt's Dad could answer that question and I know Jay's answer to that question. You could answer, "so you know who to book at a jazz festival. :P Many jazz festivals have quite a number of artists from other genres.

I think a big part of it is how jazz artists approach structure. In jazz, structure is something that is malleable, as opposed to classical music where form or structure is functional. likewise for the harmony. I think rhythmically it is more syncopated than rock, well at least after those Brits had at it. I just had to say that.

The other thing that you touched on is the idea that Miles or Tony deciding to do the straight 8ths. I wonder who it was. I bet Stan knows. It's still Miles and his Quintet doing it. Someone who has made a reputation as a jazz artist and put in the time to really develop the genre. Not someone who just comes in at the last minute and dubs himself over a legend. Same thing with Weather Report. You had top notch jazz guys in that group. Not only are they working from that jazz mindset but there persona is permanently enmeshed with jazz history.

I think that part of the problem is that since jazz is associated with instrumental music, anything instrumental becomes jazz. But my acquaintance from work was more than happy to say that Kenny G along with Chuck Mangione and George Benson was Adult Contemporary. Maybe you have to not be so attached with the outcome to see it clearly.
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Old 04-04-2010, 12:00 PM
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Default Re: Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

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The thing is in order to define jazz we would need to find the "Number One Tune that Defines Jazz."
It's gotta be It Don't Mean a Thing if It Ain't Got That Swing - surely! :)
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