TOM TUNING

This problem with people using a drum dial and it giving odd readings seems to be happening a lot lately. My solution, ditch the drum dial. It seems like it's causing more problems than helping people tune better. It's fine for helping you fine tune things once you've tuned the drum by ear, but as far as helping you tune completely, it doesn't quite function that well.

If you're able to tune the drum fine and it sounds great, don't worry about it. I've never put a perfectly tuned drum onto a flat surface to see if it wobbled...there really is no point to do that. The drum is under tension and sometimes the hoop is not going to be pulled as evenly around the drum. Some people like triple flanged hoops for this because they flex more and you have more ease of tuning. As long as the tension of the head and pitch at each lug is even, there is no reason to worry. The problem about some lugs being looser happens a lot. My solution is to bring those looser lugs up to a point where they FEEL about the same tension as the other lugs. Then drop all the lugs back down to the pitch you want and that will even everything out. A looser lug doesn't really cause any problem other than when you want to go lower and now the lug has no tension on it at all. I think every drum set I've had, ranging from $600 to $2000 sets has this occurrence.

So, just don't worry about it that much. The shell is round, the bearing edges are fine, and the rims are fine with no tension on them, so there is no reason to worry. As long as you are able to tune well and the drum sounds great, and you do what I suggested above about dealing with the looser lugs, don't worry about what the drum dial says or whether the hoops are no longer completely flat while there is tension on the drum.

[Shinx]

I know this probably isn't the response you are looking for, but if the drums sound great and the tuning isn't doing any irreparable damage to any of the hoops or shells, leave it. Or you could tune them all evenly and then fine tune to the note you want.

question....what are you using for your FLAT surface.....granite or formica countertop...not glass

I wouldn't worry about it........I have never tried to check a tuned drum on a flat surface...my thought is if the shell/edges are good and the hoop is good...then it really doesn't matter much.....I'll check a flanged drum later today...

You could try a different brand of head....probably wouldn't change things though

I am very Anal about stuff like this.....bad flaw......I know how aggravating it can be...I always try to make things fit perfect....only it doesn't most of the time

and yes ditch the DD......there is noooo way that setting your head to a certain tension at every lug will result in YOU hearing the same pitch at every lug.....I have played with mine for months and I am convinced of this.

[Steady Freddy]

[quote=Peter W.;346965]

10" Tom:
tophead: 73.5 - 71.5 - 72.5 - 72.0 - 75.0 - 73.0
bottomhead: 70.5 - 75.5 - 73.0 - 72.0 - 73.0 - 72.5

I've been using a drum dial for about two years and there's a learning curve to it.

At the tensions you have listed you need to back off on the rod that reads 75 and tighten the rod that reads 71.5. That should even things out to around 73. Both my kits, a DW and a Ludwig seem to like the 75 - 80 range and that seems to yield more consistent readings.

Two ply heads are not as consistent as single plies and muffled heads can yield some inconsistent numbers also. It's not unusual to get a rod that reads 5 points above or below the rest of the rods. Check the screws that hold the lugs to the shell. that may also help.

Check the hoops on a flat surface also. They may be tweaked and that can also generate some inconsistent readings.

In the end it's the sound and not the numbers that you're after. If it sounds good don't fix it.

[Peter W.]

Gentlemen!
Thanks for tryin' to help solving the mystery. But have you grasped the point of the mystery:
When a healthy drum is tuned allmost perfect, BY (a good) EAR, the rims seems to get twisted, and the lugs are very un-evenly tensioned.

How come? What's the physics? And is there a solution?

It's all in the HEAD.......

[SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ]

I only use my DD to get things close, then fine tune by ear. I'm sure my DD settings would vary if I measured after the fine tuning. It's no big deal. It's the sound that matters most. I've had the loose lug thing happen as well. I think it happens a lot for me because I'm using die cast hoops, which are rigid and can keep tension between two lugs even if the in between lug isn't as tight. When that happens I check to see if a lug is over tightened, and try to make compromises.

[Peter W.]

Let me just clarify one thing:
When I say that I tune the drums by notes, it means the I tune EACH LUG by notes - using my ears.

My 10" tom is tuned so it produces a G# at each lug.

My 14" tom is tuned so it produces a C at each lug.

So how comes the tension (measured by the DrumDial) is so different at each lug?
And that it actually twists the rims, to reach the same notes at each lug?

How come? Isn't it strange?

Originally Posted by Peter W.

Let me just clarify one thing:
When I say that I tune the drums by notes, it means the I tune EACH LUG by notes - using my ears.

My 10" tom is tuned so it produces a G# at each lug.

My 14" tom is tuned so it produces a C at each lug.

So how comes the tension (measured by the DrumDial) is so different at each lug?
And that it actually twists the rims, to reach the same notes at each lug?

How come? Isn't it strange?

It's strange, but drumheads aren't perfect in that it's going to take different amounts of tension around the head to achieve equal pitch. Because of that, the readings will be off, and depending on how much higher the tension is, the hoop may be pulled down more in one area than another.

Another thing, when you tune, have you tried bring up the pitch used two drum keys at opposite lugs? This will help try and make the tension on the head so it is equal.

[Peter W.]

Originally Posted by fourstringdrums

It's strange, but drumheads aren't perfect in that it's going to take different amounts of tension around the head to achieve equal pitch. Because of that, the readings will be off, and depending on how much higher the tension is, the hoop may be pulled down more in one area than another.

Another thing, when you tune, have you tried bring up the pitch used two drum keys at opposite lugs? This will help try and make the tension on the head so it is equal.

Hey man, that was a very good point! Maby the hads are not perfect in it's density, and thickness - So, the tension has to be different to compensate. And when the tension has to be different, the rims get a little twisted...

If that is the explanation, I wonder if other brands of heads could be more even in density and thickness?

[fijjibo]

Lots of people think they can use a drum dial as the fix all solution to tuning.

I applaud you guys for not being like that.

Allow me to make a few points:

1, As Rob said, heads arent all perfect

2, The sound should come first - ie fine-tune by ear

3, and perhaps most importantly - Make sure you seat the head thoroughly!!!

You would be surprised how many people miss these out...

Originally Posted by Peter W.

Hey man, that was a very good point! Maby the hads are not perfect in it's density, and thickness - So, the tension has to be different to compensate. And when the tension has to be different, the rims get a little twisted...

If that is the explanation, I wonder if other brands of heads could be more even in density and thickness?

It's not that the density or thickness is that much different, it's just the nature of the head material and that it may not require the same amount of tension around the head to achieve the same pitch. The bottom line is that you really just need to ignore the drum dial and ignore what the drum does if you place it on a flat surface once it's in tune. As long as the drum is easy to tune and sounds good, that's all that matters. Also, I think someone pointed out above, you have to make sure that the surface you put the drum on is truely flat. Glass is not flat and if you put it on wood it may not be 100% flat either. You need to put it on a granite or formica counter top. But again, if the drum tunes well and sounds good, this doesn't matter.

[maximusppl]

So I am recording in the studio with my band on Sept 14th thru the 16th. They have a DW kit there, and I listened to other bands who recorded there and the toms dont have much presence! I have listened to other saturn's being recorded in the studio and the toms are very clear and present...so i am thinking of using mine for the studio...

Who has recorded their saturn in the studio and what experiences have you had?

What heads do I use on the toms? kick drum? tuning advice?
Also, have a maple black panther snare, what heads should i record with on that puppy?

My kit:
2006 Mapex Saturn
22x18 bass
12x9 rack tom
13x10 rack tom
16x16 floor tom

[n2xlr8n]

Originally Posted by maximusppl

So I am recording in the studio with my band on Sept 14th thru the 16th. They have a DW kit there, and I listened to other bands who recorded there and the toms dont have much presence! I have listened to other saturn's being recorded in the studio and the toms are very clear and present...so i am thinking of using mine for the studio...

Who has recorded their saturn in the studio and what experiences have you had?

What heads do I use on the toms? kick drum? tuning advice?
Also, have a maple black panther snare, what heads should i record with on that puppy?

My kit:
2006 Mapex Saturn
22x18 bass
12x9 rack tom
13x10 rack tom
16x16 floor tom

Howdy!

I have the 2006 Saturns in:

22x18
20x18
8x8
10x8
12x9
14x11
16x13

Recently for recording, I've used Studio-x (and EC1) coated on the 8", and Super-2 (and EC2) coated on the rest of my toms.

I also have a BP snare; it's the BE Maple 13x3.5. I love the Evans Genera Dry and the Super-2 coated.

On my kicks, I'd use nothing else but SK II and Resonator.

Tuning advice: make sure if you use Evans you stretch them; if you use Aquarian, put them on and don't worry about it. I tune my drums to "Here comes the bride" (fourths?).

SRJ

[maximusppl]

What is Super-2?

I had the Studio X Clears on my toms before with the Classic Clears on the bottom and as far as tone, they produced and sang the best out of all of them live! They just dented kind of easily due to some severe beating...but I guess I could put some fresh ones on for the studio and keep a few handy...

Anyone else?

[n2xlr8n]

Originally Posted by maximusppl

What is Super-2?

I had the Studio X Clears on my toms before with the Classic Clears on the bottom and as far as tone, they produced and sang the best out of all of them live! They just dented kind of easily due to some severe beating...but I guess I could put some fresh ones on for the studio and keep a few handy...

Anyone else?

Super-2 is a thin, 2 ply head by Aquarian.

Note that I said coated in my examples, lol. The clears are good for live playing but ring a bit much for recording for my taste.

[maximusppl]

so do i need to go with a 2 ply coated head? like super-2 coated? what gave the best tone, making the toms sound really big and powerful in the studio?

[cdrums21]

Originally Posted by maximusppl

so do i need to go with a 2 ply coated head? like super-2 coated? what gave the best tone, making the toms sound really big and powerful in the studio?

Max,
If you research artists who record frequently in the studio, no matter what kit they use, most producers and artisits are trying to get maximum tone and resonance from the toms. 90% of the time, they go with single ply heads. They don't last as long, but for the studio, sound wins out over durability. Clear and coated heads are used, depending on the sound characteristics of the shells. If your shells are inherantly warm, you may want to go with a clear single ply head such as an ambassador or G1 to bring out more high end and attack. If your shells produce more highs and attack, then maybe go with coated heads. There are no hard, fast rules and 2 ply heads are used on toms as well, but I myself and most other artists I've read about or talked to use single ply heads on the toms in the studio. As far as snare and kick go, it's not quite as critical to get resonance from these drums, but usually, artisits use a single ply head on the snare to get a nice crack and clear tones. Kick drum is usually muffled pretty good so any quality kick drum head should work. That's my 2 cents worth, good luck and sorry I can't hook you up that weekend.

[sticksnstonesrus]

I agree with the above. Especially in that most "studios" now are smaller, have less isolation rooms/booths, and generally less room for resonanace altogether. Just about anyone running a decent Mac and Pro-tools with half a mind for sound engineering can record nowadays. Granted, technology can bail you out from a poor recording of your drums, but ideally, the better the sound you put in the mics, the easier it is to work boards later when mixing it all down. Running single-ply toms is going to produce more tonality overall. Depending on how many songs you're recording, how hard you play, and how consistent you play...you might require more than one set. Drum sound levels are a lot easier to cut down when in excess, but impossible to create when lacking. I can't tell you how many times I've come out of the studio booth just scared that the drum sound was awful (in the booth and in my headphones while laying down tracks)...but listening to the initial playbacks, not even mixed, I'm usually surprised. It defintely takes a bit of trust in the board engineers and possibly your producer, that they are aiming and achieving the sound that is right for the music. Ahh...such love for producers that care. As long as everyone gets paid, right?

Either way, my humble recommendation is to ask the studio for some product that they have produced from there and listen to what they'ev done and ask how it was recorded. If they care enough, they should be able to tell you types of drums, heads used, mics used, compressors and digital triggers and such. Maybe you already have...but proof is in the puddin'. Good research will help you prepare for what you want to bring with you to the studio before you start paying for it.

Likwise....my 2 cents...

Andy

[maximusppl]

Okay, so I have began some tuning of my kit for the studio...so far i've put on EC2 on the batter and Aquarian Classic Clears on the bottom, and it sounds okay. Not sure if I like them alot yet. I used to have an EMAD on my bass drum on the batter side and just recently went back to the Superkick II. I think its perfect for the studio. It has the perfect amount of punch and bass, very focused. I use a small EQ Pad that is standing up against the batter side and nothing touches the resonant side. I am running a EQ3 resonant bass head but may put in the Aquarian Regulator with hole just to get that extra little bit to help the SKII. Not sure what I will do with the toms just yet, might just grab some Aquarian Studio X clears and see how they do in the studio. So far those have given me the best tone, I would say. Maybe it's tuning...

[imispgh]

Mapex M series 8" tom. The batter is an Aquarian 2 and the reso is a Remo Ambassador. The heads are new. I tuned the set (8, 10, 12, 14 toms) in thirds begining with the 14" at it's lowest point. I get all the toms a 3rd up except the 8" seems "odd". The batter gets to the right note but the reso has to be very loose to sustain it. It is so loose I can see it move. When I tune the reso tighter the sustain goes away and the drum sounds dead. I tried getting the reso to equal the batter as well as make it tighter to no avail. Is it tougher to get tuning right as the heads get smaller? Is it tougher to get sustain when they get smaller? I know double ply heads lowers sustain but shouldn't the sustain be proportional across the set? The other heads seem fine. (Lastly I did tighten all the heads up pretty good over the first 24hrs and use the palm push method to get the heads stretched a bit so I assume they hold tuning well now)

You'll probably have to go with a single ply head on the 8". Sustain isn't going to be proportionate across the set because the smaller you go, the more the sustain is going to drop off, especially if you're using a 2 ply head.

I don't use that many drums now, but when I did, I found the following setup to be the best in regards to getting as equal tone and sustain across the drums as possible.

8 - Single Ply Heads Top & Bottom
10 - Single Ply Heads Top & Bottom
12 - Double Ply Top - Single Bottom
14 - Double Ply Top - Single Bottom

Of course every set is different and you may be fine with the double ply head on the 10", but this is what worked for me. You could also try as thin of a reso as you can get, like an Evans Resonant Glass, that will help. Ultimately though, remember, it's an 8" tom, you're not going to get a ton of sustain from it. 8"'s usually have a shorter sustain anyway.

[Garvin]

8" toms are tough for me too. I've always switched to single ply heads for them...

As far as the intervals are concerned, have you tried tuning the 8" first, and then working down to the 14"? Sometimes certain drums just don't sound good at a given pitch or note. Nothing against the manufacturers themselves, I just think it's the physics involved (which I don't really understand) of tuning smaller drums. I would just find that sweet spot on the 8" tom and then go down from there. Good luck!

[ermghoti]

I use the same heads across all my toms, but by tuning the 8" a slightly higher interval than the rest, I get plenty of sustain.

[imispgh]

ermghoti - do you use double-ply heads?

[abe]

I had interesting conversation about jazz drum set sound.
I'm right now working on my jazz trio stuff. One profesional sound enginer gave me superficial still very interesting view of his ideas about studio jazz drum kit sound and how to achieve it. He told that thought many drummers from today accoustic jazz scene in studio prefere small bass drumme and toms, he's for big toms and 22'' bass drum. He sad: ''In big drums sound can breath''. I'm really interested of your thoughts. We were talking about bebop hard bop, not big band jazz. I like personaly high pitched toms and quiet high bass drum, not bigger than 20''.
What's this ''breathing '' that big drum can provide while small not so much?
Isn't studio the best place where you can use smaller toms and not to worry about enough sound?

[intooder]

I have never owned/tuned an 8" tom but see if any of these help:
1) Totally theoretical: Tune both heads as tight as you can. Then gradually loosen the reso head till you achieve the tone you like.
2) Like mentioned before, single ply should resonate more. So, you might leave the double on the batter, but switch to a single for the the reso and then try tuning them
3) This is from a Weckl video I watched a while back - If the heads are fairly new, try using a hair dryer to warm up the heads a bit while tuning.
4) Not something I've needed to do - try flip-flopping the batter and reso heads and flip the tom around - there might be something funky with the mechanics of the tom/wood itself.

He probably means that a larger size has more of a full, airy tone to it. While that might be true, you can get the same out of a small size. I wouldn't imagine playing bebop with a 22" . For me it would have to at least be an 18". A 22" doesn't tune up as well, and it starts to sound boomy or boingy. A smaller drum is more versatile as well. My 18" I can tune up to jazz range and even lower to imitate a 20". I could even get a way with tuning down and not using a 22" with it as well.

[voldak]

Originally Posted by ermghoti

I use the same heads across all my toms, but by tuning the 8" a slightly higher interval than the rest, I get plenty of sustain.

Same here. I use EC2 Clear's across all toms (including the 8). I also tune my higher and get a lovely sound with nice sustain.

[Guillermo]

Hmmm... well, the thing is we're only talking daiameter here... and we're talking "3rd's".

But it's not diameter, it's the proportion of diameter/depth/thickness that makes the whole acoustic chamber of a shell... an 8"x12" is different in proportion to a 7"x8", for example.

Now regarding the intervals, all drums need to be the same proportion (theoretically) to have the same note intervals, using the same relative tension... but as we all know this is not always the case... because also SHELL THICKNESS also changes in proportion... a 6 ply 8mm shell is THINNER if the drum is a 14" in proportion to an 8" (hence the use of single ply heads on smaller toms mentioned above).
When Pearl introduced it's REFERENCE series, it was a serious atempt to design a set of drums that would deliver that, with different shell thickness for each tom size.

What's happening to you is that the heads on your 8" tom are CANCELLING each other.

Personally, I like to have nice intervals... but the EXACTNESS of the note is NOT more important than the quality of the tone and overall character... I'd rather have a slightly higher or lower interval on one drum than sacrificing a lot of the overall sound.

The beauty of this, is that it's all subjective... any method that satisfies your wants, is the correct one.

[harryconway]

Using a 2 ply batter head is great if you want to "control" or "lessen" the sustain ond overtones, but if you want to go the other way, might want to try a single ply head on the 8". Also, tuning in 3rds is cool, but your 10" might not be co-operating just because it's "sweet spot" is no where near where you would like it to be.

[abe]

Originally Posted by fourstringdrums

He probably means that a larger size has more of a full, airy tone to it. While that might be true, you can get the same out of a small size. I wouldn't imagine playing bebop with a 22" . For me it would have to at least be an 18". A 22" doesn't tune up as well, and it starts to sound boomy or boingy. A smaller drum is more versatile as well. My 18" I can tune up to jazz range and even lower to imitate a 20". I could even get a way with tuning down and not using a 22" with it as well.

I agree! It looks bit extreme approach from enginer

[Guillermo]

Well... I think I see his point.

When you tune REALLY high a bigger drum will project more than a small one... Tony Williams used big drums after his Lifetime period... he could always play hard... there is a great quiet solo of him on Youtube... snares off just singles.

I think that when you hear that, you'll get it.

Peter Erskine used a 22" for YEARS with great sound.

I for one like the SMALL approach on acoustic jazz... the kit I use for that is an 18"... it's my personal choice, but I see what the engineer meant.

[ermghoti]

Originally Posted by imispgh

ermghoti - do you use double-ply heads?

Yup, coated Emperors.

[Skitch]

Originally Posted by imispgh

Mapex M series 8" tom. The batter is an Aquarian 2 and the reso is a Remo Ambassador. The heads are new. I tuned the set (8, 10, 12, 14 toms) in thirds begining with the 14" at it's lowest point. I get all the toms a 3rd up except the 8" seems "odd". The batter gets to the right note but the reso has to be very loose to sustain it. It is so loose I can see it move. When I tune the reso tighter the sustain goes away and the drum sounds dead. I tried getting the reso to equal the batter as well as make it tighter to no avail. Is it tougher to get tuning right as the heads get smaller? Is it tougher to get sustain when they get smaller? I know double ply heads lowers sustain but shouldn't the sustain be proportional across the set? The other heads seem fine. (Lastly I did tighten all the heads up pretty good over the first 24hrs and use the palm push method to get the heads stretched a bit so I assume they hold tuning well now)

One of the problems faing the 8" tom owner is that th range is also in the range of the snare drum, so sympathetic frequencies are problem to be dealt with. You are probably just going to have to trial and error your way into a suitable tuning. I have used both, single and double ply heads on two different 8" toms (one maple, one birch) and they always seems to be picky. Another thing is that the diameter being so small, the 8" head takes a good beating and just loves to go out of tune rather easily. So you may need to frequently check your 8" tom's tuning more often than you think!

Mike

http://www.mikemccraw.com
http://www.dominoretroplate.com

http://www.youtube.com/drummermikemccraw
http://www.myspace.com/drummermikemccraw

[drumtechdad]

There's a good chance the engineer records rock kits day in and day out, that's what's in his ear. He may have never even heard a jazz kit/tuning before.

And yes, TW used big drums, but he usually tuned them quite high.

[simon.m]

I just bought new heads, Remo Emperor. I had trouble tuning my tom. I have read the Drum Tuning Bible, but I still have problems to get the right pitch. Maybe my resonant(bottom) heads are too old? Cause I've put a lot of time trying to tune them right. Give me a hint!

[Ironcobra]

did you have the same problems tuning your old heads?

[AveyTare]

maybe you should really exchange your reso heads.

i believe that the most vital thing in tuning drums is experience, so...

[simon.m]

When they use to be new, I wasn't tuning them right so..But trouble getting the pitch is a symptom of a head that's too old?