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  #1  
Old 09-14-2011, 08:53 PM
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Default Heel - Heel, Toe - Toe???

A while back when I actually had the space and time to practice once in a blue moon I tried giving the Heel - Toe method a go on double bass drum. I understood the principle but I never got it licked.

As I sit here drumming on the floor with my feet I realise it's because my instinct is to go Heel - Heel, Toe - Toe instead of Heel - Toe, Heel - Toe.

Does anyone know if this method could work as smoothly as Heel - Toe? As I sit here it sounds a bit disjointed like 1-2, 3-4, as opposed to a fluid 1-2-3-4 but that could just be because I haven't had time to work on it properly.

I wondering if I should stop myself from learning this "bad technique" so I don't have to unlearn it come the day when I can actually have a go at Heel - Toe again.
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Old 09-14-2011, 09:12 PM
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Default Re: Heel - Heel, Toe - Toe???

They are two different ways to play continuous notes. Heel-heel toe-toe is like a single stroke roll using the "constant release" technique, and heel-toe-heel-toe is not unlike a double stroke roll.
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Old 09-14-2011, 09:17 PM
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Default Re: Heel - Heel, Toe - Toe???

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Originally Posted by Wavelength View Post
They are two different ways to play continuous notes. Heel-heel toe-toe is like a single stroke roll using the "constant release" technique, and heel-toe-heel-toe is not unlike a double stroke roll.
Cool, interesting. I'm vaguely aware of this constant release technique - isn't it some Steve Smith thing? Could you link me to a YouTube video that shows what you mean? No worries if not.
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Old 09-15-2011, 12:52 AM
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Default Re: Heel - Heel, Toe - Toe???

I think the vids in this thread uses constant release at least in part: http://drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61807

haven't looked at them for a while though, dug the thread up from my bookmarks.
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Old 09-15-2011, 05:10 AM
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Default Re: Heel - Heel, Toe - Toe???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goreliscious View Post
A while back (...) I tried giving the Heel - Toe method a go on double bass drum. I understood the principle but I never got it licked.

(...) so I don't have to unlearn it come the day when I can actually have a go at Heel - Toe again.
It took me some time to get the hang of heel-toe, it takes some patience. I wouldn't keep experimenting with that heel-heel-toe-toe thing personally but instead focus on learning heel-toe. H-T works great both with single foot and double bass. I wouldn't rely on heel-toe as my only foot technique, but it's the fastest technique I know of and it's clearly more economic than heel up. The same speed will feel way easier with H-T, compared to H-U.

BTW, I'm applying 2 variants of heel-toe...

STOP!!! EDIT ;-)
I think I got your first post wrong... My first thought was that you're using one foot for that 'double' method.

If you're talking heel (right foot) - heel (left) - toe (righ) - toe (left)... That was exactly my starting situation about 1 year ago. At that time my feet weren't up to doing one quick H-T motion on one pedal, but I felt that this 'diagonal' H-T approach was more natural to me. So I kept this variation for some time. Then suddenly my feet grasped the 'normal' H-T motion and I managed to increase speed drastically. In fact, 'normal'/straight H-T gives me way more speed than the 'diagonal' version now. I'm playing both ways though (& heel up, a bit heel down also), for the sake of coordination. I'm using the 'diagonal' version for slower/medium speed or warm-up.

I strongly recommend also practicing left foot lead, with both variants! You'll see for yourself what a huge difference this will make - not only will you be able to play left foot lead with confidence, but this will also improve your control when playing right foot lead again.

Last edited by Arky; 09-15-2011 at 05:24 AM.
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Old 09-15-2011, 08:05 AM
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Default Re: Heel - Heel, Toe - Toe???

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Originally Posted by Arky View Post
If you're talking heel (right foot) - heel (left) - toe (righ) - toe (left)... That was exactly my starting situation about 1 year ago. At that time my feet weren't up to doing one quick H-T motion on one pedal, but I felt that this 'diagonal' H-T approach was more natural to me. So I kept this variation for some time. Then suddenly my feet grasped the 'normal' H-T motion and I managed to increase speed drastically.
Correctomundo. Where do you think this extra speed came from when you suddenly started doing H-T, H-T, instead of H-H, T-T? Afterall it's still 4 hits one after another...
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Old 09-15-2011, 08:20 AM
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Default Re: Heel - Heel, Toe - Toe???

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Originally Posted by Goreliscious View Post
Correctomundo. Where do you think this extra speed came from when you suddenly started doing H-T, H-T, instead of H-H, T-T? Afterall it's still 4 hits one after another...
Basically yes / I don't have a real explanation. That's why I'm scratching my head why I can't do H-H, T-T at the same speed as regular H-T. I guess we're all different - some learn motions more quickly than others, and then I guess it's possible to hit the same speed but it takes the according amount of practice time. When I'm speeding up H-H T-T to the max, the rhythm starts getting messed up - usually I would not play this variation above 200 bpm (very low speed is also hard to do for me).

I just checked both variations, playing to a click, for how they feel to me:

Regular H-T: Starts feeling comfy from 160 bpm (although feels slow),
180-200 bpm = perfect, pretty effortless. 230 bpm+ = no prob for a longer period.

H-H T-T: The comfy tempo begins at 140 bpm (feels slow though). 160 bpm = perfect warm up. 170-180 = feels best of all tempo ranges. 200 bpm and above = Hard to maintain evenness.

I simply had to break a barrier until regular H-T started working for me, just be prepared to invest some time and be patient. For me it was beneficial to also practice one foot at a time, going continuous 8th notes/the 'rocking motion'. If you're playing H-T with one foot, there's no '1 motion' feel but the motion (that's how I perceive this) will turn into a rocking thing. I'm still keeping up practicing those continuous one foot 8th notes H-T. It's not that easy to create a constant pulse and to play both hits as evenly in rhythm and level as possible. I also think one foot H-T is a great alternative for one foot heel up (sounds and feels differently).

I have a problem connecting my hands and feet so for some handwork I would use H-H T-T because this will allow to tie up slower handwork with my feet (H-H T-T 'feels' slower to me, or gives me more control in the lower speed regions).

Maybe things will be different and I'll have a good laugh 1 year from now, reading this post again. I'm into drums for 1 year now ;-)

Last edited by Arky; 09-15-2011 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 09-15-2011, 08:34 AM
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Default Re: Heel - Heel, Toe - Toe???

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Originally Posted by Hissig Gompen View Post
I think the vids in this thread uses constant release at least in part: http://drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61807
Exactly! He just calls it Down - Down, Up - Up instead of Heel - Heel, Toe - Toe. What he's doing is exactly what I found myself doing...Heel-Toe with single foot but then when I started doing it on 2 it became his D-D,U-U.

I don't know how to time link in YouTube but this is clearly shown at 3:00mins.
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Old 09-15-2011, 11:41 AM
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Default Re: Heel - Heel, Toe - Toe???

I have this exact same problem at the moment, if im going at slower speeds i can keep a constant H-T, H-T motion but as i start to build in speed for some reason i naturally start doing H-H, T-T, i also have the problem where it seems to be slightly broken sounding like 1-2, 3-4.

I guess knowing the problem gives you the opportunity to work on it, hopefully it will just be another one of those things that happen when learnin the drums and one day it will just click and you'll just be able to do it from then on! Thats what im waiting for!

Ive began starting very slowly and building speed, then when i notice ive naturally gone back to H-H, T-T i just really start to concentrate on it.. still though, hasnt proved greatly helpful so far lol, it just sounds even messier than before, but it will come in time :)
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Old 09-15-2011, 01:36 PM
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Default Re: Heel - Heel, Toe - Toe???

The combination of hearing others say they find themselves naturally doing the same thing as well as seeing this dude in the video do H-H, T-T technique successfully makes me think that maybe I shouldn't fight what comes naturally afterall.

If I was being really fussy I'd say the H-H, T-T technique of the dude in the video does still sounds a fraction 1-2, 3-4 and not 1-2-3-4...but that's really splitting hairs and what's the harm in variation.
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Old 09-15-2011, 01:55 PM
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Default Re: Heel - Heel, Toe - Toe???

Sorry if this is a bit OT, but I'm wondering what sort of power you can get out of heel toe? I don't want to bother learning it if my strokes are going to be significantly quieter than playing 'normally'.
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Old 09-15-2011, 02:00 PM
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Default Re: Heel - Heel, Toe - Toe???

I've just tried it... H-T @ 220 bpm with full power, that's a bit louder than I would normally play heel-up (I guess you'd be satisfied with the punch), is no prob. 230 bpm is where playing with great power starts feeling hard for me - if I was interested in maintaining full power with H-T at that speed, that's where I'd have to work on. If the 220-230 bpm region is enough for you, then simply believe me that it's a matter of practice to get powerful H-T strokes.

To me, the 'regular' H-T is way easier to play with power than the H-H T-T way.
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Old 09-15-2011, 02:00 PM
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Default Re: Heel - Heel, Toe - Toe???

As i play an electric kit, my bass drum is triggered anyway so from my point of view i dont notice any difference, no doubt it may kick me when i get an acoustic kit lol, but then ive mastered the slide technique better then i have heel toe anyway so if it is the case that heel toe is quiter, ill still be able to play fine while i learn to put more power into my heel toe... if its necessary anyway :)
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Old 09-15-2011, 05:54 PM
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Default Re: Heel - Heel, Toe - Toe???

I reckon you'll notice a difference between your electronic kit and acoustic. Obviously how much difference will depend on how tight your acoustic heads are, but back when I used to have an acoustic kit I really noticed the difference - especially as I tune my bass drum just above LPP so it felt like I was hitting the beaters against treacle compared to the rigity of the electric kit bass drum pad.
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Old 09-15-2011, 06:34 PM
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Default Re: Heel - Heel, Toe - Toe???

Here ya go-(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYMpr...nofeather=True)
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Old 09-15-2011, 07:03 PM
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Default Re: Heel - Heel, Toe - Toe???

SEVNT7,
could you elaborate a bit on that video? What is "Moeller 1-9" (I know what Moeller is, but I'm not aware of the specific exercises), in which tutorial can this be found? What foot pattern(s) are you playing? Sorry for my newbie question... and thanks for answering.
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Old 09-15-2011, 11:51 PM
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Default Re: Heel - Heel, Toe - Toe???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goreliscious View Post
Exactly! He just calls it Down - Down, Up - Up instead of Heel - Heel, Toe - Toe. What he's doing is exactly what I found myself doing...Heel-Toe with single foot but then when I started doing it on 2 it became his D-D,U-U.

I don't know how to time link in YouTube but this is clearly shown at 3:00mins.
Time linking in youtube is simple, just take your link and add #t=3m0s

So the link in question would be http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6hb0y2cU2M#t=3m0s
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Old 09-15-2011, 11:53 PM
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Default Re: Heel - Heel, Toe - Toe???

If you're already comfortable with it why don't you develop it a little bit more and find out for yourself? That's the best method in my opinion.
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Old 09-16-2011, 08:12 AM
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Default Re: Heel - Heel, Toe - Toe???

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Originally Posted by Arky View Post
SEVNT7,
could you elaborate a bit on that video? What is "Moeller 1-9" (I know what Moeller is, but I'm not aware of the specific exercises), in which tutorial can this be found? What foot pattern(s) are you playing? Sorry for my newbie question... and thanks for answering.
"Moeller 1-9"- 1- Single stroke roll ( not Moeller based unless played very slow. )
2- Double Stroke roll
3- Accented Triplets Rlr Lrl ( classic Moeller formula)
4- Paradiddle Rlrr Lrll
5- Five Stroke Roll Rllrr Lrrll ( Slured - Evenly spaced )
6- Double Paradiddle Rlrlrr Lrlrll
7- Rlrllrr Lrlrrll
8- Paradidlediddlediddle Rlrrllrr Lrllrrll ( Slured 8 Stroke Roll )
9- Nine Stroke Roll Rllrrllrr Lrrllrrll ( Slured )

All of these Exercises are started with a Moeller Whipping stroke on the accented note to get the pattern started. All of the exercises are formulated to have a hand to hand motion like the classic Moeller triplet hand to hand or alternating pumping motion, Rlr Lrl

I devised this exercise and give it to most of my students. I also practice these patterns every day. Not always with Bass Drum, just hands.

The pattern with the feet is RLRL Single Stroke Roll. I'm using "Constant Release" technique in this order - Down Right, Up Left, Up-Right, Down-Left. I'm thinking of these as 16ths' so the hand patterns over it are all linear.
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Old 09-16-2011, 08:30 AM
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Default Re: Heel - Heel, Toe - Toe???

SEVNT7,
wow, thanks for your detailed reply!
While your previous post was a bit short (right? ;-), that one has all the details.
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Old 09-20-2011, 12:26 PM
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Default Re: Heel - Heel, Toe - Toe???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goreliscious View Post
The combination of hearing others say they find themselves naturally doing the same thing as well as seeing this dude in the video do H-H, T-T technique successfully makes me think that maybe I shouldn't fight what comes naturally afterall.

If I was being really fussy I'd say the H-H, T-T technique of the dude in the video does still sounds a fraction 1-2, 3-4 and not 1-2-3-4...but that's really splitting hairs and what's the harm in variation.

it feels a lot more natural to me to do it this way I could never get the hang of normal heel toe on my pedal ... on the ground i can roll crazy fast with the doubles.. but i can't get it to work on my pedal .. then I found out how awesome constant release is.


and i wouldn't say that it sounds like 1-2, 3-4 (choppy and broken)... but that the heel strokes are louder so like HHtt ( trying to get that smoothed out ) this happens because on the down stroke you are dropping your leg and on the up its your ankle making the hit
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Old 09-20-2011, 01:29 PM
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Default Re: Heel - Heel, Toe - Toe???

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Originally Posted by shadowlorde View Post
(...) and i wouldn't say that it sounds like 1-2, 3-4 (choppy and broken)... but that the heel strokes are louder so like HHtt ( trying to get that smoothed out ) this happens because on the down stroke you are dropping your leg and on the up its your ankle making the hit
This seems to be a standard problem with most drummers, but some claim to even out both hits (both the HHtt and Ht-Ht version). Seems it can be done (depending on the player, and I guess with a tremendous amount of practice time), but to my ears both heel-toe versions are no nuisance but add 'texture'. To me the rhythmic evenness is more important.

Last edited by Arky; 09-20-2011 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 10-14-2011, 09:00 AM
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Default Re: Heel - Heel, Toe - Toe???

Recently I stumbled over some snippets of Tim Waterman's DVD and I was shocked by his control on various foot techniques. It made me rethink my techniques and I'll definitely get his DVD.

He can do about anything out there but I was most impressed by his toe-toe doubles/"push" technique (doubles but no heel contact with the footplate - John Longstreth is doing the same way of doubles). This works for both doubles RR-LL-RR-LL style and continuous 8th notes/single foot. Tim also does swivel and 'glide' which I'm experimenting on for a week. It's already starting to work and feels so cool! Just some suggestions to bring more doubles variety into your playing. I also noticed that footwear works better for toe-toe stuff although until now I was playing barefoot 99% of the time. Now I'll play 50% barefoot, 50% footwear - both has its pros and cons.
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