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  #1  
Old 01-26-2010, 10:27 PM
gianop81 gianop81 is offline
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Default Resonant head for more sustain?

Hi everyone!Does anyone know, from experience, which type of resonant head gives the most sustain, in combination with 2ply batter head(i know that 1ply batter head resonates more but i like the deepnees of 2ply).The shells are birch and basswood.Thanks!
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Old 01-27-2010, 01:44 AM
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Default Re: Resonant head for more sustain?

*k-ch!* (sound of a can of worms being opened)

Your best bet, in my opinion, is to get a clear 10-mil head (whether that be Remo Ambassador or Evans G1 or whatever...). In my experience, they have the most sustain, more so than the 7-mil heads, and more than the Gplus (12-mil). If you want your tone to be warmer at the cost of your sustain being shortened, get a coated 10-mil head. If you want a lower tone from your resonant head, again at the cost of a shorter sustain, get one of those Evans EC Resonant heads.
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Old 01-27-2010, 02:12 AM
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Default Re: Resonant head for more sustain?

Once again, it's Bob Gatzen to the rescue! And he agrees with Caddywumpus.
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Old 01-27-2010, 02:37 AM
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Default Re: Resonant head for more sustain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
Once again, it's Bob Gatzen to the rescue! And he agrees with Caddywumpus.
Well, close. He believes that the EC Resonant heads ring longer than G1s (and pushes the fact to sell Evans drumheads). It doesn't make sense that having something on the head that inhibits its freedom to move would allow it to ring longer. I proved it incorrect in my home experimentation, but sometimes miracles happen, I guess...
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Old 01-27-2010, 04:01 AM
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Default Re: Resonant head for more sustain?

Remo Ambassadors or Evans Clear G1 are the industry standard for nice, long sustain. If you want to reduce the sustain a bit and warm up the tone, you can go with Coated Ambassadors or Evans Coated G1.
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Old 01-27-2010, 05:12 AM
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Default Re: Resonant head for more sustain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
Once again, it's Bob Gatzen to the rescue! And he agrees with Caddywumpus.
Actually he would say the 12 mil heads would sustain longer since they have more mass
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Old 01-27-2010, 06:06 AM
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Default Re: Resonant head for more sustain?

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect View Post
Actually he would say the 12 mil heads would sustain longer since they have more mass
When the EC Resonant heads came out, the Gplus had just come out as well, if I remember right. If that were true, he would have mentioned the Gplus, I imagine, right?

Plus, where does it end? What if the resonant head is 3 cm thick? THAT wouldn't be very resonant, would it?!?!?
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  #8  
Old 01-27-2010, 06:19 AM
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Default Re: Resonant head for more sustain?

Im with caddy on this one.
You can't go wrong with a 10 mil reso when it comes to all around performance on toms. I've used thinner heads like diplomats when I wanted less sustain and double ply resos when I wanted deep thump. Coated for warmth. I've tried thick single ply also and I didn't notice more sustain. Just a lower sound was all that I could hear.
The best tuning range and sustain has always come from a clear 10 mil.
10 mil resos work wonders on low end kits also. I gig with entry level beater kits.
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Old 01-27-2010, 06:39 AM
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Default Re: Resonant head for more sustain?

Mini hijack......apologies, but I'm still on topic and it seemed pointless to start a new thread..

I've read much on this topic since joining the forums, but the argument still seems to be very much unresolved. Is someone able to settle the resonance dispute for me once and for all?

I've always thought that the thinner the head, the more sustain. Due to the fact that it would be more flexible and therefore move more air etc. But the physics debate is that more mass = more sustain. If this is the case, wouldn't something like an emperor x or even hydraulic heads be optimal for more resonance? Whereas my limited experience with them seems to indicate that the opposite is the case.

It's a concept I just can't get my head around........any takers?
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  #10  
Old 01-27-2010, 03:30 PM
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Default Re: Resonant head for more sustain?

I've always used a 10 mil reso head, to the best of my recollection, lol. I bought a new kit last year and it came with 7 mil heads on it's toms and I just didn't like to coolness of their sound. They were changed immediately to Evans G1 clears, the equivalent to Remo clear Ambassadors. I have Evans G1 clear resonant heads on every tom I own.


Dennis
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  #11  
Old 01-27-2010, 03:54 PM
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Default Re: Resonant head for more sustain?

double post

2020202020202020
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  #12  
Old 01-27-2010, 03:55 PM
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Default Re: Resonant head for more sustain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocket-full-of-gold View Post
Mini hijack......apologies, but I'm still on topic and it seemed pointless to start a new thread..

I've read much on this topic since joining the forums, but the argument still seems to be very much unresolved. Is someone able to settle the resonance dispute for me once and for all?

I've always thought that the thinner the head, the more sustain. Due to the fact that it would be more flexible and therefore move more air etc. But the physics debate is that more mass = more sustain. If this is the case, wouldn't something like an emperor x or even hydraulic heads be optimal for more resonance? Whereas my limited experience with them seems to indicate that the opposite is the case.

It's a concept I just can't get my head around........any takers?
It is solved, there is no debate.

More mass = more sustain EXCEPT for 2 ply heads.

However, there does have to be a breaking point as to where this rule in physics would stop. Like previously posted, a 3cm thick 1 ply head won't be too resonant or have much sustain. There is a cut off point, and that is where the uncertainty lies.

The thinner the head like a Resonant Glass or a Diplomat means there is less mass to vibrate. Remember drums are membranophones. The thinner the head the quicker it gets excited, vibrates, makes a brighter and quicker tone, then quickly decays.
More mass is slightly excited less, takes more to move it, it starts to vibrate at a lower frequency or speed, makes a slightly darker and slower tone, then decays longer.

We also have to use correct terminology. Resonate or resonant is not the same thing as sustain. Thinner heads will have a bit more upfront resonance, but they don't have nearly as long sustain as a thicker resonant head. A drum with a thicker resonant head has a bit of time before you hear the resonance. Its attack time is slower if you will. It really isn't noticeable to the ear, but guarantee its there. It's like "Thwack...dooooooom" instead of "Thwackdoom"
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  #13  
Old 01-27-2010, 04:45 PM
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Default Re: Resonant head for more sustain?

Before I learnt how to properly tune a drum a head to my liking, or rather learnt to tolerent the moments when tuning. I put Ec2's over G1's on my Toms, I'm eagerly awaiting to get to the point where I feel the batters need replacing so I can put a G2 or a G1 coated on.

I would go for G1 coated over a G1
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  #14  
Old 01-27-2010, 06:16 PM
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Default Re: Resonant head for more sustain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PureRockFury View Post
It is solved, there is no debate.

More mass = more sustain EXCEPT for 2 ply heads.

However, there does have to be a breaking point as to where this rule in physics would stop. Like previously posted, a 3cm thick 1 ply head won't be too resonant or have much sustain. There is a cut off point, and that is where the uncertainty lies.
It's a function of the diameter of the head, and the force with which one is moved and the tension of the head. Thicker heads will resonate longer if they are hit hard enough to start vibrating, and it would take a lot of force to get a 3 cm head going. A thinner head hit with the same force would resonate shorter. Also, a very thick head becomes loses flexibility, so it needs to increase in diameter. This is also where the tuning comes in - a thinner head tuned very loose will be dead; a thicker head tuned tight will be rigid. Think guitar strings, there is a note where each one sounds best. The same works for drum heads.

All other factors excluded, a well tuned thicker head hit with sufficient force should resonate longer than a well tuned thinner head hit with the same amount of force. If G Plus heads really have shorter sustain than G1 heads, I'd guess it's due to inherent properties of the material used.
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  #15  
Old 01-27-2010, 07:34 PM
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Default Re: Resonant head for more sustain?

In my home experiments I found that the GPlus (a 12 mil single ply head) did in fact resonate longer without losing the good tone of a 10 mil head. I use the G Pluses on all

my toms, I prefer them to a 10 mil head, which also sounds great. If I can get a 1/2 second more resonance from my drum, it's worth it to me, and to my ear the 12 mil head does just that.
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  #16  
Old 01-27-2010, 07:46 PM
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Default Re: Resonant head for more sustain?

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
In my home experiments I found that the GPlus (a 12 mil single ply head) did in fact resonate longer without losing the good tone of a 10 mil head. I use the G Pluses on all

my toms, I prefer them to a 10 mil head, which also sounds great. If I can get a 1/2 second more resonance from my drum, it's worth it to me, and to my ear the 12 mil head does just that.
This is correct both in theory and in my experience. Don't know where anyone learned that a G-plus sustains less than a G1. It doesn't--it sustains more, just as you would expect. On my kid's kit I use them as resos on the 8" and 10" toms, to better match the sustain of the 12" and the floors. Works great.
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  #17  
Old 01-27-2010, 07:58 PM
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Default Re: Resonant head for more sustain?

There has to be a point of diminishing returns. I actually think that the 12 mil head isn't yet approaching that point, but couldn't tell for sure unless they made a 14 mil single ply head to compare it to. Anyone from Evans R&D listening???
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  #18  
Old 01-27-2010, 10:44 PM
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Default Re: Resonant head for more sustain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
Once again, it's Bob Gatzen to the rescue! And he agrees with Caddywumpus.
Quote:
*k-ch!* (sound of a can of worms being opened)

Your best bet, in my opinion, is to get a clear 10-mil head (whether that be Remo Ambassador or Evans G1 or whatever...). In my experience, they have the most sustain, more so than the 7-mil heads, and more than the Gplus (12-mil). If you want your tone to be warmer at the cost of your sustain being shortened, get a coated 10-mil head. If you want a lower tone from your resonant head, again at the cost of a shorter sustain, get one of those Evans EC Resonant heads.

Quite silly. On Gatzen's video the EC resonant sustains much longer than the rest.

Last edited by Thunderstix; 01-28-2010 at 12:11 AM.
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  #19  
Old 01-28-2010, 04:48 AM
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Default Re: Resonant head for more sustain?

It does seem to sustain longer than the G1...

I had EC2s over EC Resos on my Rockstars before I got rid of them. I thought they sounded great...

I apologize, my HDD crashed a while back and all I have left is this terrible quality 64kbps bitrate MP3 of this, but I don't think they sounded bad at all. The low quality cuts out a lot of the low end unfortunately...

I have G Pluses on my reso sides right now, and I think they sustain longer and warmer than my previous reso heads...
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  #20  
Old 01-28-2010, 11:22 AM
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Default Re: Resonant head for more sustain?

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Originally Posted by Thunderstix View Post

Quite silly. On Gatzen's video the EC resonant sustains much longer than the rest.
...and in David Blaine's video, he walks on water!

I'm not here to deface or discredit anyone, but in my own experience with my own kits (1970 Ludwig and 2004 DW), the EC Resonant head simply did not sustain longer than the 10-mil clear head. It had a lower pitch, and the initial "attack volume" lasted for a longer period of time, but the overall sustain time was reduced to about two-thirds of what was given by the 10-mil head. I tried it at low and medium tunings, and it simply wasn't so.
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Old 01-28-2010, 03:48 PM
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Default Re: Resonant head for more sustain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
There has to be a point of diminishing returns. I actually think that the 12 mil head isn't yet approaching that point, but couldn't tell for sure unless they made a 14 mil single ply head to compare it to. Anyone from Evans R&D listening???
The EC1 is a 14mil single-ply head. Only available with the control rings.

We've been using them on the kid's kit for over a year now. Not to everybody's taste--including mine, actually--but if you like what they do, they're excellent. He plays loud rock unmiked, so the added sustain is a boon.

I understand that Remo is coming out with an Ambassador X head, 12mil and coated. (They don't seem to be including a clear option.) I'm definitely going to give those a try.
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Old 01-28-2010, 05:02 PM
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Default Re: Resonant head for more sustain?

I sometimes miss the days when the choices of heads were somewhat limited ?? I guess. I have been playing for over 30 years now so I am able to weed out what will work for me and what won't. Today if your a beginner it can be a total nightmare. There is a lot of confusion out there when it comes to heads in particular. Some new products from the top 3 companies are great. Some are not so great. To me it sometimes seems like they keep trying to re invent the wheel. Now it seems like an incredible sin to put a pillow or blanket in a bass drum but it's ok to use a pre muffled head with felt, foam rubber or whatever else attached to it. What's the difference ? The drum is still muffled.
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Old 01-28-2010, 07:48 PM
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Default Re: Resonant head for more sustain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by drumtechdad View Post
The EC1 is a 14mil single-ply head. Only available with the control rings.

We've been using them on the kid's kit for over a year now. Not to everybody's taste--including mine, actually--but if you like what they do, they're excellent. He plays loud rock unmiked, so the added sustain is a boon.

I understand that Remo is coming out with an Ambassador X head, 12mil and coated. (They don't seem to be including a clear option.) I'm definitely going to give those a try.
No power dot or anything? I'll definitely have to give those a try since I like the G Pluses at the very least as reso heads... An actual coated 12 mil Ambassador sounds like an awesome head all around the kit. As long as it's as bright as an Ambassador I'll probably have a new favorite snare head too (:
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Old 01-28-2010, 10:59 PM
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Default Re: Resonant head for more sustain?

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Originally Posted by wolfmoon View Post
I sometimes miss the days when the choices of heads were somewhat limited ??
Yes me too. Same goes for cymbals. Usually the regular models work best. Today, many "special" models are big mistakes.


I have tried several things and have come to some simple conclusions:

- Rack toms: coated 1 or 2 ply on top medium tension; clear 1 ply on bottom around 1/4 higher than top

- Floor toms: coated 2 ply on top medium tension; clear 2 ply on bottom around 1/4 higher than top

- Snare: coated 1 ply with 1/2 moongel or coated P3 on top tensioned fairly high but not so high it chokes; medium snare bottom medium tension; keep wires fairly loose

- Bass: coated or clear P3 batter; any kind of P3 resonant both tensioned fairly low but not so low it doesn't produce a tone. Use felt strips for more control but keep the inside empty for more volume. Small offset hole to further reduce sustain.


For more attack, use clear batters. The bottom influences the tone much less than the top. There really aren't many heads beyond the default that work well.

Last edited by Thunderstix; 01-28-2010 at 11:13 PM.
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Old 01-30-2010, 12:04 AM
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Default Re: Resonant head for more sustain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfmoon View Post
I sometimes miss the days when the choices of heads were somewhat limited ??
Hell, no! And I've been using coated Ambs for about 35 years.

But I'd never go back to limited choices. My kid's kit uses Evans EC1s, which are perfect for his music. I'm glad they're available!

Quote:
Now it seems like an incredible sin to put a pillow or blanket in a bass drum but it's ok to use a pre muffled head with felt, foam rubber or whatever else attached to it. What's the difference ? The drum is still muffled.
Well, one difference is that pillows, blankets, futons, etc. muffle the shell, too, so a premuffled head lets more tone through.

That said, I prefer a minimally muffled head (I use PS3s on all the bass drums here) because you can always add muffling when you need it, but on some of the severly premuffled heads (SKs, for example) you can't remove it when you want to--when you're playing unmiked, for instance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos_Inferno View Post
No power dot or anything? I'll definitely have to give those a try since I like the G Pluses at the very least as reso heads... An actual coated 12 mil Ambassador sounds like an awesome head all around the kit. As long as it's as bright as an Ambassador I'll probably have a new favorite snare head too (:
They've only just announced the Ambassador X recently. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they offer both a clear version and a dotted version down the road.
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  #26  
Old 01-30-2010, 12:23 AM
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Default Re: Resonant head for more sustain?

Once again, I'm going to heavily debate with myself on what heads to change to once I finally have the spare time, the need and the cash to buy new heads for everything again.

*sigh*
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