Who is the most solid drummer?

[BassDriver]

I'm serious...

...who is most precise with each hit landing the closest to it's intended point in time...?

...and how would that be gauged anyway?

[pbloxam]

I think threads like this are subjective in the sense that to each his own....

All opinion.... Who I think might be an others "Don't think so".....

Good luck on your search though!!!

[BassDriver]

I think threads like this are subjective in the sense that to each his own....

All opinion.... Who I think might be an others "Don't think so".....

Good luck on your search though!!!

It's not, I'm looking for facts, whether one drummer is more solid (accurate in timing) than another is not up to opinion.

I was asking if any drummers have been electronically graphed and compared to a metronome.

[wy yung]

Originally Posted by BassDriver

...who is most precise with each hit landing the closest to it's intended point in time...?

Me.




.................................................. ........;)

[bobdadruma]

Sorry wy, It's me! Well, Me and Ringo!

[markusjj]

One of the Steve's....Jordan or Gadd

[ace76543]

I think this is a moot question. How are we to determine who the most solid drummer is? Studio work? No. Editing and mastering tracks have made every drummer sound perfectly solid. Live work? How? What if Lars Ulrich has more live work than Danny Carey? I think we can all agree that Carey is more solid, but if we look at the facts, the cold hard evidence, Lars has way more hours of solid playing out there than Danny does. No matter how much you say you're looking for facts, the answers you get will be completely subjective. There's no way to "measure" how solid a drummer is. The finer points of music cannot be refined to a science, no matter how much we would like to be able to.

That aside, I'd would say (in order): Jojo Mayer (who has trained with the specific intention of sounding like a computer), Danny Carey (who has intentionally trained himself to play every note, no matter how fast, audibly; just like buddy rich), Buddy Rich (see former), Marco Minnemann, or Terry Bozzio

[wy yung]

More than likely it is the studio greats such as Earl Palmer, Hal Blaine, Steve Gadd, Bernard Purdie, Jim Keltner etc etc etc. Earl being at the top of my list. He was The Man!

http://www.rockhall.com/inductee/earl-palmer

The Great Man at work.



As far as I can tell, Earl is the most recorded musician in history.

[oops]

If you record in Protools (or any similar software) you can line the drum parts up with a click to see how closely in time they are.

I'd love to say that Vinnie or Gadd has the most solid on the beat time, but I'd say it's more of a groove/feel thing with both players. It doesn't matter if it's a little bit behind, it just makes the groove sit back a bit.

If you want a guy with "perfect time", I believe David Jones almost takes the cake:

http://www.davidjonesdrums.com.au/

[DrumEatDrum]

Originally Posted by BassDriver

I was asking if any drummers have been electronically graphed and compared to a metronome.

This happens every day. In any recording studio using protools or similar software (which would be 90-99% of them) the drum track is recorded onto a perfect grid.

From there, the producer can either have the drummer do as many takes as necessary to get it with in an acceptable range of alignment, edit the notes so they do fall in range, or just hire Josh Freese to get it right the 1st time.

[BassDriver]

I'm sure the Steve Gadd's of metal; Derek Roddy and George Kollias are pretty solid aswell.

As far as I can tell, Earl is the most recorded musician in history.

Bernhard Purdie, was the most recorded drummer, go on Purdie's page on this site and at the top it says so, also very solid.

If you record in Protools (or any similar software) you can line the drum parts up with a click to see how closely in time they are.

I'm sure Audacity would work just aswell, you can place a click in a seperate audio track or in an existing track and compare.



What would be the maximum nuance/deviation allowable for a drummer to get sessions? (considering the notes are NOT going to be edited)

[mcbike]

ndugu chancler
phil rudd
steve jordan

[wy yung]

Originally Posted by BassDriver

Bernhard Purdie, was the most recorded drummer, go on Purdie's page on this site and at the top it says so, also very solid.

So he says. Earl was at it many many years before Purdie. Don't forget Purdie had a nasty habbit of taking credit for the work of others. Just ask Richard Bailey about a Jeff Beck album.

Purdie isn't even close to Earl and Hal Blaine.

[theindian]

yo mama...
or maybe phil rudd.

[oops]

Originally Posted by BassDriver

I'm sure Audacity would work just aswell, you can place a click in a seperate audio track or in an existing track and compare.

That's why I said "(or any similar software)".

Regarding the most-recorded drummer: it's pretty much impossible to tell any more, so many guys did so much work over so many years. There are a couple guys who obviously top the list, but would Gadd get credit for doing one tune off the Aja album? Would Purdie get credit for that album? What about Keltner? What about albums recorded but not released? What about demos or EPs that never really sold?

[BassDriver]

How solid do you have to be to be a session drummer?

1/100 of a second + or - ?

1/1000 of a second + or - ?

...maybe smaller deviation for that producer to be happy?

Would there be a range where it simply would not matter, will our minds simply not notice the difference?

Would there an audible difference in a moneybeat between Bernhard Purdie and Phil Rudd if they used an elec. drum set (for the drum sounds to be the same)?

[pbloxam]

Thought I would come back and read the other posts....

As I said in my first post, subjective....no doubt about it....

Thanks for clarifying what you were looking for though....

Peace!!

PS. The only guy I know of (documented from studio engineers) that had near perfect time was Carlos Vega...

[jonescrusher]

Originally Posted by BassDriver

How solid do you have to be to be a session drummer?

1/100 of a second + or - ?

1/1000 of a second + or - ?

...maybe smaller deviation for that producer to be happy?

Would there be a range where it simply would not matter, will our minds simply not notice the difference?

Would there an audible difference in a moneybeat between Bernhard Purdie and Phil Rudd if they used an elec. drum set (for the drum sounds to be the same)?

You can't quantify things like that, a session drummer has to be as solid as is required to get the thumbs up in the control room. If accuracy to within a thousandth of a second is required, machines would be used - after all, whats 1/1000, if the guitarist lays a track thats 1/100 out? Robinson/Blaine/Palmer/Gadd/Purdie are all studio legends through feel, not micro-second accuracy.

[Ian Williams]

John Henry Bonham ~ Bonzo.

Originally Posted by ace76543

That aside, I'd would say (in order): Jojo Mayer (who has trained with the specific intention of sounding like a computer), Danny Carey (who has intentionally trained himself to play every note, no matter how fast, audibly; just like buddy rich), Buddy Rich (see former), Marco Minnemann, or Terry Bozzio

I'm guessing Jojo never had the intention to sound like a computer. He told me firsthand that he is doing the opposite: According to him, if he sounded like a computer his playing would not make any sense because you might as well put a drumcomputer on stage. Drumcomputers are low-emotional, JoJo told me he wants to sound high-emotional.

I'm guessing your speaking more of texture and of the sound of certain beats than of the way he is actually phrasing. Even more so: Most of JoJos beats relate to stuff like the amen-break, general breakbeats, the Funky Drummer break..... none of these was created using drumcomputers. They are sampled, restructured and sped up drumbeats from real drummers.

About the Danny Carey thing: This is a real strange remark in my book. Doesn't every drummer do that / is striving to do that? Who would ever want to play something that cannot be heard? Could you explain what you mean by that specific intention? Maybe I'm just not getting it.

Right how would that be gauged?? How can anyone say Carey Mayer Gadd or anyone else for that matter? Another question that proves absolutely nothing but here I am contributing to it..Guess I am bored.

Since there is no way at all to gauge it I will say Tommy Lee and Meg White are as deserving as Gadd or Mayer in this question.

[RollingStone000]

Originally Posted by oops

Regarding the most-recorded drummer: it's pretty much impossible to tell any more, so many guys did so much work over so many years. There are a couple guys who obviously top the list, but would Gadd get credit for doing one tune off the Aja album? Would Purdie get credit for that album? What about Keltner? What about albums recorded but not released? What about demos or EPs that never really sold?

And we can't forget samples. Cats like Tony Allen, Clyde Stublefield, John Bonham, Dennis Chambers (and more) are all over hip-hop.

[larryace]

1/100th of a second, 1/1000? I think it's more like 1/10th or 1/5th.
Besides being perfectly accurate doesn't mean you're a good sounding drummer. it just means you're accurate. Accuracy does not automatically equal a good drum track, Thank Heaven for that, right?

[Boomka]

Like in the universe? Or just in the world? Or maybe in your house?

[Boomka]

Originally Posted by oops

That's why I said "(or any similar software)".

Regarding the most-recorded drummer: it's pretty much impossible to tell any more, so many guys did so much work over so many years. There are a couple guys who obviously top the list, but would Gadd get credit for doing one tune off the Aja album? Would Purdie get credit for that album? What about Keltner? What about albums recorded but not released? What about demos or EPs that never really sold?

Most-recorded is tough. Most-sold is J.R. Robinson, I believe. A couple of hits with Michael Jackson and Madonna saw to that. So when he says, "Money Beat", he absolutely means it.

[Pollyanna]

All the top drummers sound completely solid to me. However, I read a comment from someone who'd played with Jim Keltner saying that he gets it spot on every time.

[ace76543]

Originally Posted by SickRick

Doesn't every drummer do that / is striving to do that?

First off, that's not my point. Second, no way. I guess I didn't explain myself properly. Yeah, every drummer strives to play perfecly even and whatnot, but not everyone can play each note, regardess of speed, volume, etc. Look at a lot of death metal drummers (i have Dusk and Her Embrace - Cradle of Filth in mind right now). Fast playing sometimes melts notes together and makes it unclear what exactly the person is playing. Now look at Ticks and Leeches by Tool. Similar tempo (i think), similar concept (diddling around on the toms), yet dusk and her embrace is kind of smushed together, whereas in ticks and leeches the drums are pretty clear, and if you took the time, would be fairly easy to transcribe. Having seen both bands live I can say that this is not just a matter of eqing and studio work, it's in the playing.
As for the Jojo Mayer thing, I saw it in an interview somewhere. If I can find it I'll send it to you. Maybe I misunderstood what he was saying, idk.

Even so, my examples are just that - examples. I just shot off things that came to my head as I was writing, but it was all in the interest of trying to prove a point; which is that it's impossible to accurately measure how solid a drummer is

Originally Posted by ace76543

First off, that's not my point. Second, no way. I guess I didn't explain myself properly. Yeah, every drummer strives to play perfecly even and whatnot, but not everyone can play each note, regardess of speed, volume, etc. Look at a lot of death metal drummers (i have Dusk and Her Embrace - Cradle of Filth in mind right now). Fast playing sometimes melts notes together and makes it unclear what exactly the person is playing. Now look at Ticks and Leeches by Tool. Similar tempo (i think), similar concept (diddling around on the toms), yet dusk and her embrace is kind of smushed together, whereas in ticks and leeches the drums are pretty clear, and if you took the time, would be fairly easy to transcribe. Having seen both bands live I can say that this is not just a matter of eqing and studio work, it's in the playing.
As for the Jojo Mayer thing, I saw it in an interview somewhere. If I can find it I'll send it to you. Maybe I misunderstood what he was saying, idk.

Even so, my examples are just that - examples. I just shot off things that came to my head as I was writing, but it was all in the interest of trying to prove a point; which is that it's impossible to accurately measure how solid a drummer is

I don't think that the two examples you mention have anything to do with concpet. The main difference is probably that Danny Carey is a monster drummer with great technique and the Cradle of Filth drummer is not (as far as I recall from my death metal days which were over 15 years ago).

Let's put it that way: every serious student of the drums and of drumming technique has the goal to play every note the way he wants it to be played. Danny Carey is one of them but most certainly not the only one.

BTW I think this thread is pretty senseless since highly subjective as many other here have pointed out.

One more sidenote from the transcribers pov: Cradle of filth is very easy to transcribe compared to Danny Carey or JoJo Mayer simply because the latter ones use way more complex rhythms.

[Swiss Matthias]

There are many I think.
Keith Carlock is precise like a computer.
Vinnie did and does awesome studio work in no time.

To me the one who floors me the most with his precision and power, especially considering the brain-twisting complex stuff he plays, is Virgil Donati.

[bonzolead]

Joey Kramer-Aerosmith

He not fancy just solid. He came up with the "Walk this way" beat........nuff said

Bonzolead

[imispgh]

Originally Posted by BassDriver

I'm serious...

...who is most precise with each hit landing the closest to it's intended point in time...?

...and how would that be gauged anyway?

I have read Charlie Watts has very steady timing. I think I read they have taken away the song feed and click from him and he staid on beat for as long as we wanted to play.

[tbmills]

personally, i think a solid drummer is one who can conform his swing to fit any song/click. to me, the steve's (jordan and gadd) have it. they are more than just accurate. they know where the beat is and play musically around (or on top of) it.

[BassDriver]

So how does anyone improve their inner sense of timing or precision?

Drummers talk about this "all powerful pocket", I know what it is but I don't understand when someone says that someone's pocket is "narrow" or "wide" or "deep". Can someone also please explain that.

[Swiss Matthias]

You may start a new thread on that:).

[wy yung]

Originally Posted by BassDriver

So how does anyone improve their inner sense of timing or precision?

Drummers talk about this "all powerful pocket", I know what it is but I don't understand when someone says that someone's pocket is "narrow" or "wide" or "deep". Can someone also please explain that.

Basically pocket refers a groove played in time that is comfortable. Some drummers can play in time but the feel is rigid. A drummer who is playing in a pocket is doing so in a very organic way. The best way to understand such abstract idea is to listen to pocket players. Usually these are not guys who play loads of fills, but rather people who commit themselves fully to supporting the song. Steve Gadd, Al Jackson, Jeff Porcarro, any James Brown drummer, Steve Jordan etc. Check out the live clip of Jordan playing Vultures with John mayer.

[Swiss Matthias]

Originally Posted by wy yung

Usually these are not guys who play loads of fills, but rather people who commit themselves fully to supporting the song.

Except for some R&B and gospel drummers i.e. Aaron Spears.
Also, Dennis Chambers is referred to as a pocket player a lot, and he does play quite busy often. There are quite some "pocket players" in the busier drummer world too, IMO.
In my eyes, Dave Weckl has amazing pocket even when playing the most busy stuff he plays, he never loses his groove and feel. (while I'm aware of the fact that his style and feel is not everyone's cup of coffee)

[wy yung]

Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias

Except for some R&B and gospel drummers i.e. Aaron Spears.
Also, Dennis Chambers is referred to as a pocket player a lot, and he does play quite busy often. There are quite some "pocket players" in the busier drummer world too, IMO.
In my eyes, Dave Weckl has amazing pocket even when playing the most busy stuff he plays, he never loses his groove and feel. (while I'm aware of the fact that his style and feel is not everyone's cup of coffee)

Let's not make the mistake of thinking that just because a guy has technique means he cannot play pocket or that he must feel compelled to use vast degrees of technique all the time. Seriously, who thinks like this???

When Dennis Chambers plays pocket he plays pocket. Any mature drummer does so. You don't walk onto James Brown's stage and play constant fills. You don't walk onto a jazz gig and play heavy metal. But you do walk onto a heavy metal gig and play heavy metal.

NOTE* Drum technique is not in danger.
Nor is it the target of a campaign trying to bring it down.
Drummers who develop technique need not feel inferior.
Drummers with vast technique are not compelled outside of their own heads to use it constantly.
When someone talks about pocket or groove, he or she is NOT attacking drumset technique.
Nor is this person putting down drum corps or ballet or backgammon!

[Pollyanna]

Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias

Except for some R&B and gospel drummers i.e. Aaron Spears.
Also, Dennis Chambers is referred to as a pocket player a lot, and he does play quite busy often. There are quite some "pocket players" in the busier drummer world too, IMO.
In my eyes, Dave Weckl has amazing pocket even when playing the most busy stuff he plays, he never loses his groove and feel. (while I'm aware of the fact that his style and feel is not everyone's cup of coffee)

Good point. Those guys, especially Dave Weckl, are quite amazing. DW is like a painter, dabbing here and stroking there with total control, and everything comes out as smooth as silk and put in a great spot.

That's the thing . It depends on whether you're talking about top-drawer drummers or the average local drummer.

How often have you heard local drummers go for chops but they didn't have the ability to keep things grooving and then the song loses momentum? Haven't thousands of us gone for the hero fills at the expense of the groove in our youth? It's almost a rite of passage, a part of our learning.

Some styles of music can still sound ok played sloppy and spirited, so beginners love playing songs like Smells Like Teen Spirit and Smoke On The Water. Trying to play Pick Up the Pieces without having a good pocket wouldn't be nearly as much fun :)

[keep it simple]

One of my favourite solid drummers is Prairy Prince from The Tubes. Great invention but always against a background of deep rock groove. The guy's rock solid live too. No tempo deviation whatsoever & tons of power. Really one of my all time favourites + he bought me beers last time we met up at a gig. Truely a fantastic guy as well as a fantastic player.

[eddiehimself]

Originally Posted by BassDriver

I'm serious...

...who is most precise with each hit landing the closest to it's intended point in time...?

...and how would that be gauged anyway?

Well it's not me, that's for sure.