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  #1  
Old 12-09-2009, 01:18 AM
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jodgey4 jodgey4 is offline
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Default Vintage Remo heads on Ludwig Centennial?

I got my kit recently, and remembered that I would need new heads. The sizes are two 14" snares (the 6.5" X 14" standard maple and a 6.5" X 14" supraphonic ss - my main snare), 20" X 24", 8" X 12", 15" X 16", with a 10" X 14" and 16" X 18" on their way, all in Silver Sparkle. I probably won't use the 14" maple at all, and I might use the 12". Anyways, I really want to try the Remo Vintage heads, so I was thinking on the snare and toms coated Vintage Emperors over 'modern' Coated Ambassadors, clear for the snare. The bass would be a 'modern' Emperor with the stock Ludwig resonant head, with felt strips on each. What are your thoughts? I don't want to try Evans, and I know about Aquarians, and might use the Satin Finish ambassador-style heads as resonant heads, but I really want Vintage Emperors. The only thing I'm worried about is the Vintages not blending with the bass drum, or sounding dead. Thanks and sorry it's a long question.
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  #2  
Old 12-09-2009, 01:57 AM
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Default Re: Vintage Remo heads on Ludwig Centennial?

I have the vintage emperors on all of my toms. And man do they sing!!!...Robust is the best word that comes to mind. Warm and round. I don't thing that you will have a problem blending the bass and toms.
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Old 12-09-2009, 06:39 PM
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Default Re: Vintage Remo heads on Ludwig Centennial?

I really like Ludwig heads (Medium coated Weather Master, and Weather Master snare side) on the Supraphonic.

Definitely give the Vintage Emps a go on the toms. I'd be tempted to try smooth ambassadors on the resonant side.

For the bass drum, have you considered a PS3? That would likely eliminate the need for felt. Also, those funky import coated vintage-logo resonant heads are pre-muffled. No need for felt on that one.

-Ryan
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  #4  
Old 12-09-2009, 11:53 PM
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Default Re: Vintage Remo heads on Ludwig Centennial?

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Originally Posted by volvoguy View Post
I really like Ludwig heads (Medium coated Weather Master, and Weather Master snare side) on the Supraphonic.

Definitely give the Vintage Emps a go on the toms. I'd be tempted to try smooth ambassadors on the resonant side.

For the bass drum, have you considered a PS3? That would likely eliminate the need for felt. Also, those funky import coated vintage-logo resonant heads are pre-muffled. No need for felt on that one.

-Ryan
I might do the smooth ambassadors, but they sound pretty dark, right? also I'm a Bonham fan so that's why I wanted the Emperor on the bass drum, every body has a PS3 and I want something unique, I would get Aquarian bass drum heads but they are pre-muffled... and I really want to try felt because its what they used to do (Bonham and them) and that seems cool to me...

Last edited by jodgey4; 12-10-2009 at 03:45 AM.
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  #5  
Old 12-10-2009, 04:43 AM
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Default Re: Vintage Remo heads on Ludwig Centennial?

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Originally Posted by jodgey4 View Post
I might do the smooth ambassadors, but they sound pretty dark, right? also I'm a Bonham fan so that's why I wanted the Emperor on the bass drum, every body has a PS3 and I want something unique, I would get Aquarian bass drum heads but they are pre-muffled... and I really want to try felt because its what they used to do (Bonham and them) and that seems cool to me...

Definitely do your own thing! It's worth experimenting and finding your own sound, which is the only way to find out how and why it's your own sound!

Though, remember that part of the reason for the felt strips, is because muffled heads didn't exist in the 70's. Would he have used the same approach today? Plenty of folks today do still use felt. Have you checked out Jeff Ocheltree's YouTube vids? Good stuff!

"Modern" ambassadors are a bit brighter than Emperors because they're just a single ply. They work well as reso's. I have coated Ambassadors as reso's on my Element SE kit, and the sound is a little more muffled than I'd like, but you've got *much* larger drums than I do, so the coated Ambassadors may be perfect for you.

Have fun!
-Ryan
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  #6  
Old 12-10-2009, 08:30 PM
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KarlCrafton KarlCrafton is offline
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Default Re: Vintage Remo heads on Ludwig Centennial?

I have a few 20" deep bass drums, so here's some advice to save a possible future headache...

If you use a pre-muffled head, use something at the bottom of the shell to soak up the sound that's going to bounce around.
It doesn't have to touch either head, just here to stop any bounce around especially if you are mic'ing the drum live, or recording.

1" foam velcroed to the bottom works great and you don't have to mess with it.

Personally I use 'regular" un-muffled head, but that's up to your tastes on what head to use.
....................

The Vintage Emps are 2 plies of the White film. They sound different than the usual ones with coating sprayed on the clear film.
I like them better too. They do seem to sing (like nicotine25 said), and it's a great head on a 16" ft. On an 18, forget it! You'll just sink into the sound.

The "VE"'s are the "old" Emp's (up until sometime in the 90's when they went with the coating on clear), so it's what Bonham would have used.

Coated Ambassadors have always had the White film, so you can use a coated or smooth white and get "basically" the same sound (and the same head as Bonham used).

The smooth white is a little louder than the coated, and deeper sounding than the clear. Not by much, but I can tell on my toms.

The SW's sound beefier on the bottom of the floor toms for sure (compared to clears), and a little more open than the coated Ambassador.

Hope this helps, and enjoy that new kit!!! Pics when you get it going too!
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  #7  
Old 12-10-2009, 09:00 PM
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Default Re: Vintage Remo heads on Ludwig Centennial?

Karl,

Do you find the Vintage Emps to be a bit more resonant vs.the "modern" ones?

Thanks!
-Ryan
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  #8  
Old 12-11-2009, 12:08 AM
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Default Re: Vintage Remo heads on Ludwig Centennial?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlCrafton View Post
I have a few 20" deep bass drums, so here's some advice to save a possible future headache...

If you use a pre-muffled head, use something at the bottom of the shell to soak up the sound that's going to bounce around.
It doesn't have to touch either head, just here to stop any bounce around especially if you are mic'ing the drum live, or recording.

1" foam velcroed to the bottom works great and you don't have to mess with it.

Personally I use 'regular" un-muffled head, but that's up to your tastes on what head to use.
....................

The Vintage Emps are 2 plies of the White film. They sound different than the usual ones with coating sprayed on the clear film.
I like them better too. They do seem to sing (like nicotine25 said), and it's a great head on a 16" ft. On an 18, forget it! You'll just sink into the sound.

The "VE"'s are the "old" Emp's (up until sometime in the 90's when they went with the coating on clear), so it's what Bonham would have used.

Coated Ambassadors have always had the White film, so you can use a coated or smooth white and get "basically" the same sound (and the same head as Bonham used).

The smooth white is a little louder than the coated, and deeper sounding than the clear. Not by much, but I can tell on my toms.

The SW's sound beefier on the bottom of the floor toms for sure (compared to clears), and a little more open than the coated Ambassador.

Hope this helps, and enjoy that new kit!!! Pics when you get it going too!
I'll defiantly use the SW for the resonant, and I think I'll go ahead with Vintage E's. I can see where the 18" would sink, but I want it to match, and if Bonham used it, well there's another reason.

Bass drum though, o gosh. I would like to avoid pre-muffled heads. My drum teacher has a coated Evans EMAD and it sounds beyond awful. No tone, nothing but slap and an uncontrolled boom at the end that does nothing but screw everything even more. I think there are 3 possibilities. Remo Coated Emperor, CS, or possibly an Aquarian Super-kick III (pre-muffled), but I don't want anything like that EMAD. But it could sound very unique/cool... so there's like 2.5 choices. With a 20" deep, I want it to be as defined as possible. At this point whatever you think is the one I'll probably settle with. Would a bass drum patch help too? Maybe I could do that on an Ambassador. I've never bought bass drum heads before, but I know all of them really well. And also I'm not going to port the resonant no matter how much it would help. :)
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  #9  
Old 12-11-2009, 01:36 PM
drumhammerer drumhammerer is offline
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Default Re: Vintage Remo heads on Ludwig Centennial?

On the kick you could try a coated Powerstroke 4, which is a pre-muffled 2 ply head, and you wouldn't have to put anything in the drum. This head is very fat and warm, and it's just like the head Bonham used (coated Emperor) except for the muffling ring. There's no pinstripe on it either like there is on the Powerstroke 3, so it still looks vintage. The Aquarian Super kick II sounds good on a 24 too, but it doesn't look as vintage.

Also, make sure to tune the batter head tighter since you have a 24. Some people make the mistake of tuning larger kicks like 22's, so they end up sounding flat and dead. Especially with the pre-muffled heads, and 2 ply heads.
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Old 12-12-2009, 05:51 AM
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Default Re: Vintage Remo heads on Ludwig Centennial?

Oh I was actually looking at the PS4 but didn't put it on my list. Btw I have tuned up my bass drum up quite a bit more than I expected I would. It's almost tom range as far as pure tension goes, but it sounds great. Also I meant the Aquarian Super kick III (3), texture coated with a power dot just like the CS but premuffled. I think I'm going to go with the Emperor because I still like the idea of felt, for the vintage look and feel. And I have a 10% off for Musician's Friend and they don't stock PS4's, and think that's why it wasn't on my list, but I may have had another reason. Thanks and I would promise to put up pictures with the full kit, but seeing as the rest of the kit comes not 'til January, I doubt I'll remember. But it looks and sounds way better than expected, especially with stock heads and mixes well with the Paiste 2002's - 24" ride, 18" medium, 18" crash, and 15" sound edge hi-hats, and hopefully a 20" Giant Beat soon. I just wish there was a 14" X 26" bass drum, ughh. I have one picture to show. That's a (80's?) Paiste 2000 Sound Reflections 22" Power Ride on the ground and the mounting stuff for the 12" tom. Got a mid 60's Ludwig Speed King I restored (took 3 days!) for the pedal, and a Hat Trick borrowed from a friend's dad, and that's probably 20-30 years old. I love vintage and new stuff mixing.
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  #11  
Old 12-13-2009, 03:08 AM
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Default Re: Vintage Remo heads on Ludwig Centennial?

Wow. Those silver sparkles look awesome. I've never seen a pic of them outside of the official catalog photos. Great looking kit!

-Ryan
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  #12  
Old 12-16-2009, 08:04 PM
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Default Re: Vintage Remo heads on Ludwig Centennial?

Quote:
Originally Posted by volvoguy View Post
Karl,

Do you find the Vintage Emps to be a bit more resonant vs.the "modern" ones?

Thanks!
-Ryan
I don't know if they are more 'resonant' but the overall sound seems smoother, and the stick sound is less 'clicky'...I guess the attack is a bit warmer and not as sharp, but you still have attack.
The lows stand out more and last longer than on a regular Emp.

AWESOME KIT jodgey4!

Very cool, and I really dig the 20x24.

I have a few 26's, and I'm deciding on weather to go down to a 24 (20x24).
I used to play a 14x24 (for a long time), now my son plays it, and it sounds really great.
For the last 20 years I've played 26's and 28's, and now that 24 has caught my ear again.

After you play it a while, give an update on how you like it.

Here's my advice, take it or leave it as you choose....

If you mic at shows, I'd put a mic HOLZ in the kick.

I know, I know. I fought it for years, but it WILL tighten up the sound of the kick drum and the bass player. And you won't sound like you're off through a PA, even if you're NOT off.
The depth gives you lots of body to the sound, but it also takes longer for the sound waves to get to the mic (those pesky milliseconds!).

A 4" hole doesn't make that noticeable difference on a 20" deep shell, and not that much sound difference either.

For micing, if you still want the rounder "less click" more vintage tone, put the mic AT, or just slightly inside the hole and point it more toward the shell and away from the beater.

IMO, stay away from Pre-Muffled heads on a deep shell. They work well on 14"-16" deep, but the longer shells get the 'inside a basketball' sound going.
I've tried a crap load of heads, and the "regular" head has worked the best on the longer drums.

A felt strip works, but I use a rolled up towel between the posts and the head on the outside. The felt (to me) gets kind of a flat sound and I get a rounder, full sound of the head (highs, mids, lows) without the overtones you don't want, but the tones you do want are left alone.
This method is quick and easy, and you can adjust things from the seat (instead of getting up, sticking your hand in the hole..) if you need too. Muffling this way has been around for ages, but everyone wants a new way to do it...

It's been perfect for me, and sound guy's NEVER have a problem micing my drum (20x26) and it always sounds great--even Simon Philips loved the sound of it (got the pics to prove it!).

For the impact pad, I use a piece of the same head material so it sounds like no patch (= natural bass drum sound).
AND I have found that since I can change the patch when I want (since it's taped on), I get a new head feel, but since the head is played in, the tone is nice and full and comfortable.
Heads last YEARS for me doing this (6 years and counting on one Coated Amb--pretty good!).

Long winded, and giving out my secrets, but maybe it'll save you some time and $$$.

Have fun with that kit!!
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