DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > Drum Gear > Other Gear

Other Gear Discuss Hardware and all other equipment not covered in the other topics

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 10-31-2009, 01:47 PM
ANIMALBEATS's Avatar
ANIMALBEATS ANIMALBEATS is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: borders of Scotland
Posts: 692
Default Die cast hoops

What are they for and when are they useful...?

And would they soud good on dw keller shells...?
__________________
Drumming the fine art of violence.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-31-2009, 02:53 PM
drumtechdad's Avatar
drumtechdad drumtechdad is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Anytown, USA
Posts: 1,107
Default Re: Die cast hoops

They dry out a drum, making it more punchy and less resonant. They are also more stable at holding a tuning.

Whether the change in sound they make is an improvement or not is a judgment call. Alas, it's damned expensive to experiment with them.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-31-2009, 03:11 PM
MadJazz MadJazz is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 659
Default Re: Die cast hoops

They also provide more attack and loud rim shots. Generally, a more metallic and less woody tone.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-31-2009, 03:31 PM
NUTHA JASON's Avatar
NUTHA JASON NUTHA JASON is offline
Senior Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: london
Posts: 3,903
Default Re: Die cast hoops

i swear by them on all my snares. i actually buy them to improve the snares i've got.

tuning is a dream.

j
__________________

http://youtu.be/fBQeCcBVUCw
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-31-2009, 06:32 PM
criz p. critter's Avatar
criz p. critter criz p. critter is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Los Angeles or thereabouts
Posts: 762
Default Re: Die cast hoops

Quote:
Originally Posted by NUTHA JASON View Post
tuning is a dream.
j
I've got one kit with diecast and one with triple flange. I like them both equally.

I find that the diecast is harder to tune, due to them being so rigid, less flexible. I've heard a lot of other people say that, too.
__________________
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man. --The Dude
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-31-2009, 06:55 PM
pbloxam's Avatar
pbloxam pbloxam is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 104
Default Re: Die cast hoops

Quote:
Originally Posted by criz p. critter View Post
I've got one kit with diecast and one with triple flange. I like them both equally.

I find that the diecast is harder to tune, due to them being so rigid, less flexible. I've heard a lot of other people say that, too.
You find contrary to the law of physics...More rigidity equals even tensioning across the head even in between the lugs as opposed to less rigidity allowing the hoop to flex in between the lugs and the head tension to be reduced at those points.......

My experience has been that they are easier to tune and maintain a tuning longer, where due to the rigidity when one lug loosens up, it affects the over all sound or tuning less...

I think this is one of the things they are known for in comparison to triple flanged hoops...
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-31-2009, 07:52 PM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is offline
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 13,290
Default Re: Die cast hoops

I like them on my snares too, I noticed a big difference when changed to diecast, but toms I can't really tell much of a difference. I think they tune easier, they flex less than triple flanged. I can't explain why I notice more of a difference on snares than toms, but I definitely do.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-31-2009, 11:03 PM
criz p. critter's Avatar
criz p. critter criz p. critter is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Los Angeles or thereabouts
Posts: 762
Default Re: Die cast hoops

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbloxam View Post
You find contrary to the law of physics...More rigidity equals even tensioning across the head even in between the lugs as opposed to less rigidity allowing the hoop to flex in between the lugs and the head tension to be reduced at those points.......

My experience has been that they are easier to tune and maintain a tuning longer, where due to the rigidity when one lug loosens up, it affects the over all sound or tuning less...
Yeah, it's easy to see how a rigid hoop would theoretically have equal tension everywhere, but that's assuming that all the components are perfect: the hoop and bearing edges perfectly flat and in-round, and the head made well. Let's say the bearing edge dips down in one spot, or the hoop bumps up, it's harder to correct for that than with triple flange.

But I agree completely that they hold a tuning longer.
__________________
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man. --The Dude
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-31-2009, 11:42 PM
pbloxam's Avatar
pbloxam pbloxam is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 104
Default Re: Die cast hoops

Quote:
Originally Posted by criz p. critter View Post
Yeah, it's easy to see how a rigid hoop would theoretically have equal tension everywhere, but that's assuming that all the components are perfect: the hoop and bearing edges perfectly flat and in-round, and the head made well. Let's say the bearing edge dips down in one spot, or the hoop bumps up, it's harder to correct for that than with triple flange.

But I agree completely that they hold a tuning longer.
True!! It cannot fix out of round drums, nor can it fix bad bearing edges nor bad heads...

I don't think they were intended for that... I think it is just an alternative....

I have them on all drums and all my snares have been converted to diecast...

They tune up easy and quickly...

Peace!!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-31-2009, 11:50 PM
GRUNTERSDAD's Avatar
GRUNTERSDAD GRUNTERSDAD is online now
Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: God's Waiting Room
Posts: 15,387
Default Re: Die cast hoops

I think part of the plan is that they will take more of a beating and just last longer. I have them on my Renowns, and my 14 inch tom weighs more than my 16 inch Catalina Maple tom.
__________________
Thank you for sharing my day.
Gretsch Renown
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-01-2009, 12:15 AM
bobdadruma's Avatar
bobdadruma bobdadruma is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: second measure of a fill-in
Posts: 10,251
Default Re: Die cast hoops

Thats right GRUNTRESTAD, You cant kill a die cast hoop. Heavy and solid! I prefer them to stamped. They feel so solid when you play a rim shot. I like cast hoops that bend over the lip of the drum toward the inside.
__________________
I kind of like old drums:)
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-01-2009, 12:52 AM
timmdrum's Avatar
timmdrum timmdrum is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Wilson, NC
Posts: 732
Default Re: Die cast hoops

Die cast hoops do not make a drum less resonant. They focus the tone some by reducing overtones, but they don't force the heads to literally ring for a shorter amount of time.
__________________
My player site
My instructor site
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-01-2009, 01:40 AM
criz p. critter's Avatar
criz p. critter criz p. critter is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Los Angeles or thereabouts
Posts: 762
Default Re: Die cast hoops

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
I think part of the plan is that they will take more of a beating and just last longer. I have them on my Renowns, and my 14 inch tom weighs more than my 16 inch Catalina Maple tom.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
Thats right GRUNTRESTAD, You cant kill a die cast hoop. Heavy and solid! I prefer them to stamped. They feel so solid when you play a rim shot. I like cast hoops that bend over the lip of the drum toward the inside.
I've got Renowns, too, and I also love the sound and feel of playing on the hoops, and getting a nice solid rimshot on the snare.

But then I've got some Vistalites with triple flange hoops, and I also love the sound and feel of that kit.
__________________
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man. --The Dude
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-02-2009, 10:36 PM
ANIMALBEATS's Avatar
ANIMALBEATS ANIMALBEATS is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: borders of Scotland
Posts: 692
Default Re: Die cast hoops

interesting to note dw dont believe in them...?
__________________
Drumming the fine art of violence.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-02-2009, 10:47 PM
TTNW's Avatar
TTNW TTNW is offline
Pioneer Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 1,846
Default Re: Die cast hoops

Quote:
Originally Posted by ANIMALBEATS View Post
interesting to note dw dont believe in them...?
There are pros and cons to both kinds of hoops but I can't figure out why DW doesn't offer them either. They are a custom drum builder after all.

I have them on most of my snares. Love 'em
__________________
Philippe - Eat, Sleep and Drum.. .. it makes for a good weekend.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-02-2009, 10:52 PM
pbloxam's Avatar
pbloxam pbloxam is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 104
Default Re: Die cast hoops

Quote:
Originally Posted by ANIMALBEATS View Post
interesting to note dw dont believe in them...?
Not really.... I imagine DW probably believes they are the best drums in the world also...

As to why they don't put diecast on their drums. I am sure they have some explanation as to why....

I am sure its hype or jive also....
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-02-2009, 10:56 PM
audiotech
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Die cast hoops

DW does use die cast hoops on their Jazz series.

Dennis
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-03-2009, 12:55 AM
hateplow's Avatar
hateplow hateplow is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 994
Default Re: Die cast hoops

Quote:
Originally Posted by TTNW View Post
There are pros and cons to both kinds of hoops but I can't figure out why DW doesn't offer them either. They are a custom drum builder after all.
DW will make drums with die cast hoops for you, you just have to ask.
__________________

Noble & Cooley Horizon Reissue, Craviotto Solid Maple 4-Piece
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-03-2009, 04:54 AM
TTNW's Avatar
TTNW TTNW is offline
Pioneer Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 1,846
Default Re: Die cast hoops

Quote:
Originally Posted by hateplow View Post
DW will make drums with die cast hoops for you, you just have to ask.
I guess I hadn't looked closer at the Jazz Series and most of their drums have triple flange hoops so I assumed.

Good to know that they will give you a custom spec if you request it.
__________________
Philippe - Eat, Sleep and Drum.. .. it makes for a good weekend.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-03-2009, 03:46 PM
drumtechdad's Avatar
drumtechdad drumtechdad is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Anytown, USA
Posts: 1,107
Default Re: Die cast hoops

Quote:
Originally Posted by timmdrum View Post
Die cast hoops do not make a drum less resonant. They focus the tone some by reducing overtones, but they don't force the heads to literally ring for a shorter amount of time.
Perhaps this is a semantic issue. I did not mean to imply that drums with diecast hoops have less sustain than with triple flanged hoops. To my ear, though, they do have less resonance--less roundness and fatness to the sound. That's another way of saying "more focus." You hear more of the heads and less of the shell, due to the added weight and the physical placement of that weight.

Even a switch from 1.6 triple flange to 2.3 triple flange has an obvious effect in that regard, while leaving the sustain pretty much unaffected.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 11-03-2009, 05:29 PM
audiotech
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Die cast hoops

Is it the increase of weight between the 1.6, 2.3 and the die cast hoops that we're talking about or primarily the shape of the rims when it comes to a bit less resonance? The reason I'm asking is because no matter what the hoops weigh when they're off the drums, The heads of the drums see much more pull or weight than just the hoops alone when they are tensioned across the head. Picking arbitrary numbers now, an 8 ounce hoop would be the equivalent to much more weight after it's been tensioned and tuned on the drum due to the increased pressure exerted through the tension rods.

I don't know, it's something I was just thinking about. There really isn't that hugh of a weight difference no matter what hoops you're using, especially when tensioned.

Dennis
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 11-03-2009, 08:52 PM
drumtechdad's Avatar
drumtechdad drumtechdad is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Anytown, USA
Posts: 1,107
Default Re: Die cast hoops

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiotech View Post
Is it the increase of weight between the 1.6, 2.3 and the die cast hoops that we're talking about or primarily the shape of the rims when it comes to a bit less resonance? The reason I'm asking is because no matter what the hoops weigh when they're off the drums, The heads of the drums see much more pull or weight than just the hoops alone when they are tensioned across the head. Picking arbitrary numbers now, an 8 ounce hoop would be the equivalent to much more weight after it's been tensioned and tuned on the drum due to the increased pressure exerted through the tension rods.

I don't know, it's something I was just thinking about. There really isn't that hugh of a weight difference no matter what hoops you're using, especially when tensioned.

Dennis
Dennis, I really don't know. Maybe I'll bounce it off my physics-teacher dad next time we talk! Under tension, some of the forces involved must be transferred to the shell through the head, and I'm thinking that when the head is under tension it probably behaves more like a more rigid material than it is when not tensioned.

But truly I'm only reporting what I hear, and I've fooled around with these things a fair amount. I've even tried 1.6, 2.3, and die cast hoops that I had lying around on the same tom one day, and what I hear reinforces the conventional wisdom.

However, that's really only valid for that particular drum. What about thick-shelled drums vs. thin? Any difference, or as much? Dunno.

Also: not all die cast hoops are created equal--some are much heavier than others. Is it the weight or the rigidity? Again, dunno.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 11-04-2009, 02:51 AM
bobdadruma's Avatar
bobdadruma bobdadruma is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: second measure of a fill-in
Posts: 10,251
Default Re: Die cast hoops

Triple flanged hoops came into being because stamping machine technology became affordable to manufacturing companies. It is less expensive to make a triple flanged hoop.
There is a lot more energy and labor involved in producing a cast hoop. That is the main reason for flanged hoops.
Marketing staff spun the flanged hoop design into a sales tool and they began to mention them in their product descriptions as a development for sound technology. True, flanged rims sound different than cast rims, but the real reason for their existence is manufacturing cost and ease.
__________________
I kind of like old drums:)
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 11-05-2009, 05:30 PM
timmdrum's Avatar
timmdrum timmdrum is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Wilson, NC
Posts: 732
Default Re: Die cast hoops

Quote:
Originally Posted by drumtechdad View Post
Perhaps this is a semantic issue. I did not mean to imply that drums with diecast hoops have less sustain than with triple flanged hoops. To my ear, though, they do have less resonance--less roundness and fatness to the sound. That's another way of saying "more focus." You hear more of the heads and less of the shell, due to the added weight and the physical placement of that weight.

Even a switch from 1.6 triple flange to 2.3 triple flange has an obvious effect in that regard, while leaving the sustain pretty much unaffected.
You're right, it is semantics that we're discussing. Resonance is literally vibration that is a source of sound, and in terms of a drum, when the head stops vibrating, so does everything else, so sustain is a measure of how long the drum resonates. The presence of additional overtones doesn't mean the drum is resonating more or longer, it's just different. You hear a more round/fat sound because of the presence of overtones- sympathetic harmonics. So, the drum isn't more or less resonant, just different.
__________________
My player site
My instructor site
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 11-06-2009, 03:10 AM
Trip McNealy's Avatar
Trip McNealy Trip McNealy is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 697
Default Re: Die cast hoops

Take it from the man himself... not an entire novel on the subject but some good insight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UfQPlHS4d4
__________________
I've been drumming for 35 years. I'm 34 years old.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com