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  #1  
Old 10-07-2009, 11:04 PM
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larryace larryace is offline
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Default A possible tuning revelation

So I'm mowing my lawn, thinking about my upcoming drum head change and seeing that I'm a tuning fanatic, it occurred to me that in order to get really even tension all the way around....THE COUNTERHOOP SHOULD PROBABLY BE LEVEL , RIGHT?

Since the bearing edge is level (hopefully) and assuming that you put the drum on a perfectly level surface (important), wouldn't this be a great tuning aid?

I can't believe I've never considered putting a level on my counterhoops before, duh.
I'm pretty sure that's why some drum dial users have problems with getting matching readings all the way around, the rims are not level in all directions.
What do you guys think?
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  #2  
Old 10-07-2009, 11:15 PM
justjim justjim is offline
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Default Re: A possible tuning revelation

In theory it sounds good, but I have practical concerns

The first being that is that it's an indirect measurement - we are measuring a parameter and then attempt to derive the value of a different parameter and so we are "measuring through errors" --
ie are we are assuming "perfect" many things that may not be -- the bearing edges, hoop, uniformity in the bead and thickness of the membrane of the head, etc
and all that error can accumulate with no assurance that they cancel??

the other is just measuring precision v the scale of our measurements (ie are the deltas in our values big enough to show up well on our measuring instruments??)



but that's all they are, just CONCERNS/design questions - it may be that the concerns are unfounded, so I'm sort of playing devil's advocate there ...and I'm a jerk

Last edited by justjim; 10-07-2009 at 11:28 PM.
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  #3  
Old 10-07-2009, 11:36 PM
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Default Re: A possible tuning revelation

Good points Jim, I can see it being useful if you are really off level. I'll bet that drums that don't want to tune for anything suffer from being really skewed. I'm just hypothesizing, but you can bet I'll be doing leveling experiments later tonight...
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  #4  
Old 10-07-2009, 11:46 PM
denisri denisri is offline
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Default Re: A possible tuning revelation

Hi Larryace
You may have a bigger problem leveling the floor!!!!!! Denis
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  #5  
Old 10-08-2009, 03:51 PM
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Default Re: A possible tuning revelation

I tried it last night, but afterwards, I realized that, if trying to level the batter head first, the reso head should be off the drum. It was basically a waste of time. I don't need no stinkin level to tune my drums. Sorry for the bad idea.
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  #6  
Old 10-08-2009, 04:00 PM
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Default Re: A possible tuning revelation

No probs from this end, Larry. I didn't understand what you were talking about anyway :)
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  #7  
Old 10-08-2009, 04:27 PM
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Default Re: A possible tuning revelation

Ha

when we bolt together subsea pipeline flanges in the oil business we use a torque tool that tightens up multiple bolts at the same time to the same torque. This gives a very even tension in all the bolts.

So what we need is a hydraulically operated multiple flexible drum-nut tensioning device.

You would be able to preset the torque on the device and then press a button and way hay you'd be in drum tuning heaven.

Then if 10 Nm (or ft.lbf to you non-SI types across the pond) is too low,you reset it for 12 Nm and off you go.

Davo
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  #8  
Old 10-08-2009, 08:06 PM
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Default Re: A possible tuning revelation

I don't think I have a plumb surface in my house . . . . ;-)

Meanwhile, getting the heads on perfectly evenly is especially important on a snare. I stole an idea from Bob Gatzen: after you mount the head (either batter or reso) and bring it to finger tight, take a ruler and measure the distance from the head to the top of the rim at each tension rod. Needless to say, it should be the same all around. As you add tension, stop after each round and measure. If it's higher in some spots, add tension just to those spots. Once you've got it even, add more tension. Then measure again. Lather, rinse, repeat.

This is a big help with snares. It's very easy to get a snare head on poorly so that the rim is higher in one place and lower in another.
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  #9  
Old 10-09-2009, 03:39 AM
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Default Re: A possible tuning revelation

I like Davo's idea, what a complicated octupus looking freaky deeky drumkey that'd be.

Hey DrumTechDad, I must've missed that one from Gatzen, makes sense to me, I'm mad I didn't think of it, curses!
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  #10  
Old 10-09-2009, 03:44 AM
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Default Re: A possible tuning revelation

It would work if all drum heads were perfect, but they're not. If you tune a drum to where it sounds absolutely beautifully great, the best that drum has ever sounded and ever will sound, it's singing, punchy and just couldn't possibly sound any better, and then set it down on a table, I'll bet you anything that it won't sit perfectly flat.
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  #11  
Old 10-09-2009, 03:47 AM
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Default Re: A possible tuning revelation

What is that tuning device that is sold that pulls down evenly on the hoop all the way around the drum??? One key turn works all lugs.
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  #12  
Old 10-09-2009, 03:34 PM
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Default Re: A possible tuning revelation

yea, that cable tuning system...Dtune perhaps? Never had any experience w/ it.
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  #13  
Old 10-10-2009, 12:08 AM
justjim justjim is offline
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Default Re: A possible tuning revelation

keep doing what you're doing
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  #14  
Old 10-10-2009, 01:42 PM
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Default Re: A possible tuning revelation

Ahhh, an engineer's point of view on tuning.

Interesting yet not really do-able imho and here is why. Drums are wood and for your idea to work you'd need to calibrate the level to the female THREADS of the drum's lugs and more. Calibrating to the lugs themselves is no good as there are variables in where the holes are drilled that attach the lugs and the assembly of the lug is another variable so you MUST calibrate the level to the female threading.

So you need to calibrate the level to the female lugs actual first thread. With that done THEN your technique could work provided the rim is perfectly manufactured (each rim hole perfectly spaced to the height of the rim when under tension (this also covers the problem of lug stretch that may occur).

And then we have the actual manufacturing of the drum head itself and the material consistency. That is a huge can of worms in and of itself.

Sorry and apologies for shooting down your technique, just too many variables and drums/heads are not manufactured to Formula Car or precision instrument standards. Worse still, heads could stretch in an inconsistent variable as could the drum's wood content dure to the inherent molecular structure of wood (plus humidity as it effects the various wood grains/personality). So far what makes the most sense (imho) is an actual head tension detection device as you are measuring the surface for which you want calibrated. This technique eliminates other variables and the fewer variables the easier it is to be more precise.
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  #15  
Old 10-10-2009, 06:51 PM
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Default Re: A possible tuning revelation

Right you are thtst. I was so excited when it occurred to me, but it doesn't survive the acid bath of drummerworld ha ha
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  #16  
Old 10-10-2009, 06:57 PM
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Default Re: A possible tuning revelation

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
So I'm mowing my lawn, thinking about my upcoming drum head change...
Spoken like a true drummer!
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  #17  
Old 10-10-2009, 07:11 PM
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Default Re: A possible tuning revelation

So I'm diddling my girl, thinking about my upcoming head change....
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  #18  
Old 10-10-2009, 07:12 PM
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Default Re: A possible tuning revelation

Quote:
Originally Posted by thtst View Post
not manufactured to Formula Car or precision instrument standards.
guess it depends on which formula - formula Vee is, well..club racing bug engines*! :D

(*well it started that way, not sure what the current formula allows.)
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  #19  
Old 10-10-2009, 07:36 PM
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Default Re: A possible tuning revelation

Could not tell you specifics of why but hoops make a huge difference to how well the drum will tune up. I bought a early 90's Radio King snare off ebay for a reasonable price that someone replaced the original COB stick saver hoops with triple flange hoops. The drum sounded like dog poop which I guess is the risk when you buy off ebay. I checked the roundness, changed heads, snare wires and no luck. As a last ditch effort I took the stock hoops off another Radio King of the same era (different depth) and what do you know, absolutely as beautiful sounding maple snare as you will ever hear. Not sure if was bad triple flange or matching Slingy hoops but it definitely was the hoops.
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  #20  
Old 10-10-2009, 10:08 PM
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Default Re: A possible tuning revelation

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
So I'm diddling my girl, thinking about my upcoming head change....
You need a new gal, mine blows my mind so can't think of anything else :)
(blame Larry, he started this line of thought. "Thought control, it wasn't my idea" -- D.F.L.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by justjim View Post
guess it depends on which formula - formula Vee is, well..club racing bug engines*! :D
(*well it started that way, not sure what the current formula allows.)
FV is nice, i did FC for two years and got the driver's championship on the second. FVs are really fun, as one of my friends has one and while following him around th track one day he was really swinging that rear end around having a great experience (with his cloths on). Made me wish at the time i had a car you could just have so much fun with and not care about lap times per se. Then again he had truly excellent car control and had been driving the car for a VERY long time.
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  #21  
Old 10-11-2009, 01:54 AM
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Default Re: A possible tuning revelation

Quote:
Originally Posted by thtst View Post
FVs are really fun, as one of my friends has one and while following him around th track one day he was really swinging that rear end around having a great experience (with his cloths on).
They're fun as crap! I think some of it is, BECAUSE you're dealing with just not that edge razor-edge tech (sort of like form RD on the bikes - love the RDs) and all the baggage that comes along with it

So yeah the challenges aren't necessarilly lesser, it's just within that performance window - I always thought it was funny to let a supertwin or SS/SB GTO guy on a GP bike.
They just aren't used to such a narrow window and are constantly falling into the hole


Made me wish at the time i had a car you could just have so much fun with and not care about lap times per se.


To be honest, most of the time I think practice days were just more fun for that reason.
That and the "off" claases (modern vintage, closed older formulae, etc)

Quote:
Then again he had truly excellent car control and had been driving the car for a VERY long time.
Ain't it the way.
It's funny, I've got this pal who keeps rebuilding this Econoline conversion van he's had since we were teenagers
Now he's a pilot and isn't hurting financially, but as he explains (he's been able to control that beast in some pretty freaky adventures) - 'I've been driving the same damn car for 30 years, of course I know what it's going to do!"
ain't no substitute for the hours
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  #22  
Old 10-12-2009, 02:55 AM
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Default Re: A possible tuning revelation

Quote:
Originally Posted by justjim View Post
ain't no substitute for the hours
Amen. Seat time is key.

PS: EVERYONE ELSE... apologies for O.T.
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  #23  
Old 10-23-2009, 07:11 AM
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Default Re: A possible tuning revelation

I accept: Drums are wood and for your idea to work you'd need to calibrate the level to the female THREADS of the drum's lugs and more. Calibrating to the lugs themselves is no good as there are variables in where the holes are drilled that attach the lugs and the assembly of the lug is another variable so you MUST calibrate the level to the female threading.
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  #24  
Old 10-23-2009, 03:46 PM
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Default Re: A possible tuning revelation

[quote=astvadlut;625349]I accept: Drums are wood and for your idea to work you'd need to calibrate the level to the female THREADS of the drum's lugs and more. Calibrating to the lugs themselves is no good as there are variables in where the holes are drilled that attach the lugs and the assembly of the lug is another variable so you MUST calibrate the level to the female threading.[quote]

This would make sense. I tried the level, bad idea....
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