Old guitarist/new drummer

[genereaux]

I'm sure these are always fun threads for the real drummers....

I always wanted to be a drummer, but when it time to start band in the 3rd grade, I was pushed toward the trumpet. Around 13 y/o, (it was the 80s), my mom tried REALLY hard to set me up and scrounged up part of a Ludwig sparkle (red kick, blue floor, yellow rack) in some pretty beat up shape and no hardware. I WISH I knew what happened to those guys nowadays- I'm pretty sure I remember at least on of 'em had a 'keystone' badge...
Around 14, I was in the music store with a couple hundred bucks and realized I couldn't carry home a kit, but I COULD carry a guitar home, so that was that.

But still sorta 'pang'-ing for drums...
So, recently, I started 'ebay-ing' up some shells and have pieced myself together a kit. I call it the 'Liberty Kit';
White Camco (LA) 24 kick
Blue Pearl Export 16X16 floor
Red 14X14 Ludwig CS rack

And an unidentified steel snare, as well as a Mapex M snare (aqua-marine, I think), both 14X 5 1/2
DW 5000 pedal, and Pearl hi hat stand. The snare stands (snare and rack tom) aren't THAT chincy, but not 'top of the line'.
Cymbal stands ARE cheap and chincy, but work for now.
The Ride cymbal is a Sabian AA Dry ride (20, I think), also from ebay. The hats are a Zildjian bottom and Camber top, a cracked Zildjian thin crash and broken (like, a bite taken out of it) Sabian crash, all 'hand me downs' from my (real) drummer in my current band.
Here's a couple pics;



Here's the metal snare, if anyone has an idea of who made it;

As the drums trickled in from UPS/FedEx, I would re-head and "tune" (to whatever extent I can actually tune at this point)
The kick got a used Evans ebony reso (w/hole) and a new Emad2 (and I think I'm using the thicker of the foam rings). I gaff taped a brick of foam up against the reso head.
The metal snare got a new Ambassador batter, as did the floor tom.
The Ludwig was new, so still has the stock batter and reso head.
The Mapex came with a lightly used 'Reverse Dot' and the stock reso.
I got a drum dial (I know, all you experienced folks seem to LOVE those things...) and tuned everything to the 'high' side of their little reference sheet. Except there was no 24 settings, so I just dialed it up to the 22 inch settings.

ANYWAY.......
I've been a professional touring gtr tech, but don't know TOO much about drums, past what I've lurked from this and the Pearl forum. So, by way of actual QUESTIONS, I suppose I'd ask;
The bearing edge on the bottom of the Mapex looks horrible- it appears to do a 'mobius strip' from 45 degrees to rounded over and back again. I haven't taken the heads off that one yet, so I don't know what the top looks like.
If I am confident in my woodworking and build myself up a flat jig for the router to ride on, is it as 'easy' as just routing a clean 45 on it?

Beyond that, I'm down with any other general tips, tricks or whatnot that y'all may think helpful.
And I'm still unsure about what all I'm listening FOR, so if anyone could point to some audio example of what sounds 'good' (I know- subjective) in the way of rock drums.
e.g; I used HATE the snare in Pearl Jams VS album (particularly 'Go'), but I realized eventually that I really like it...

At the moment, I THINK (I haven't been able to spend as much time PLAYING yet as I'd like) that I really like the kick. And am a little surprised with how much I might be liking the metal snare (btw, it's got a 20 wire, while the Mapex still has a 16), as well as the Ludwig. Though I think I still need to muck around with the floor tom. It seems 'out of place' in the mix, though I can't rule out my playing ability. I DID measure it when I swapped heads and it measures round, so I dunno....

But, to my credit, I think I did an ok job with tuning 'em up so they don't really ring the other drums (still a LITTLE snare movement, but not really much 'ring')

Sorry about the 'rambling', but I look forward to combing through the forum here and picking up what I can....



sean

[PreppieNerd]

As far as tuning goes, as you said, "good" is subjective, but one bit of advice, if you hadn't thought of it, is characteristics of the room and how it affects sound.

What I mean to say is, don't get too hung up on tuning for practice in a small room, because the drums will sound completely different, and infinitely better in a large room or stage situation.

[genereaux]

Originally Posted by PreppieNerd

What I mean to say is, don't get too hung up on tuning for practice in a small room, because the drums will sound completely different, and infinitely better in a large room or stage situation.

THAT is a good point, and one I hadn't considered. I 'tuned' them in the house in my office, which has your typical bedroom dimensions. But I set them up in my shop/studio, which is a much bigger 'room' with an apex-ed ceiling staring at 9 feet and peaks at probably 16 feet. That could be why I think the 24 sounds so much 'better' than I may have initially thought.

But how much does the room size really effect the 'sound' I'm hearing as I play? I can totally get the effect it would have for the listener. As a guitarist, I can walk away from my stack and experience more 'room', but the drummer (by nature) always has to be right up on the instrument the whole time.

But still, thanks Nerd.

[freebirdgdw]

Is that how you have the kit set up when you play? it seems very spread out. you should move the hi tom a bit more to the right over the kick and the floor tom more to the left so it's to the right of your kick pedal. The I'd say aim the cowbell towards you and have it flat so your hitting the flat of it. It'll sound better than hitting the edge. Moving your ride over the kick a bit more should be more comfortable too.

here's a link to the four piece kit thread. Might help you with setup etc.

http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/s...ght=four+piece

If you've tried different setups and like this one the beast already, ignore everything I've said. :P

best of luck drumming :D

[justjim]

hey!


classic[al] guit is my native (play some double bass and gamba too -- so yeah, trap kit is a complete departure for me]

I guess with regard to the "palying on top" of the instrument v the audience (and us acoustic intrumentalists have that, we are locked to a position) -- you've got a couple of options

have someone else play your instrument while you take a listen (yes, they will play somewhat differently than you - having them do very simple hits so you can focus on the instrument, not their playing, can help -- but you are probably used to that from general soundcheck

One thing we used to do as an exercise in was monitor room mics (pref binaural) through phones to get a sense. It was more just an exercise in awareness than a way to rehearse or anything...still it made you think about the projection into the audience
not only do you have the room, but "behind the instrument" subjects you to proximity and projection effects

though, I suppose with rock drums (soounds like maybe that's more your cup -- never tried the exercise in that context) you are going to need good isolation

one caveat - if you run binaural monitoring - it can feel kind of weird if you are playing, but haven't reversed the channels so you have listener-side location

but I WOULD suggest getting used to thinking in terms of listener-experience (it's not unlike the bedroom guitar player being bass-boosted and scooped only to find later that his sound is very full solo, but just muddies up and becomes indistinct in a band-on-stage context)



I would suggest getting some moongels (they are really inexpensive) -- now there are various views on when and how much to dampen things, and yeah you'll probably go through a phase where you overuse them (think a novice guitar player and distortion, flange or reverb or how much rosin a beginning cellist will put on that bow)

BUT regardless of how you feel abt their use or overuse in a performance situation
I think they are a great learning tool -- you can easily move them around, experiment and get a sense for various portions of the sound of drums (and where they are coming from)
like one thing you may find is going "oh, wow I can moongel out that nasty ringy sound". Then you can go back, pull the moongel and try to TUNE the ring out -- kind of like listening to heterodyning ("beats") when tuning a string to a reference

eh, just some thoughts for ya fellow defector!!!

[genereaux]

Originally Posted by freebirdgdw

Is that how you have the kit set up when you play?

Well, that's how it was the last time I played, but it was a haphazard,"hell, I've got a little time, lemme youtube something up on the Iphone and play along" kind of thing...
But you're right, I probably had things set up tighter when I had it in the house. I like your pointers and will probly squeeze things together...

Originally Posted by freebirdgdw

here's a link to the four piece kit thread. Might help you with setup etc.

Awesome, thanks for the link. It looks like it'd prove helpful.

Originally Posted by justjim

have someone else play your instrument while you take a listen

Yeah, I had to move away from my current band. But I expect at some point they'll make the trip and I can set my 'real' drummer loose on it. He's a DW guy, so I'm sure he'll hate me over the Camco (but I don't know where he stands on the 24 vs 22 issue). So I'm sure I'll "hear" the kit someday, and get some valuable hands on input as well.

Originally Posted by justjim

One thing we used to do as an exercise in was monitor room mics (pref binaural) through phones to get a sense. It was more just an exercise in awareness than a way to rehearse or anything...still it made you think about the projection into the audience
not only do you have the room, but "behind the instrument" subjects you to proximity and projection effects

Good suggestion. I have a Zoom H2 that I plan to set up and capture some playing so I can go back and listen after to get an idea of what is/isn't working.

Originally Posted by justjim

I would suggest getting some moongels (they are really inexpensive) -- now there are various views on when and how much to dampen things, and yeah you'll probably go through a phase where you overuse them

I'm reading a lot folks seem 'anti-gel', but I'm not above it. I'll probably grab some up here fairly soon and start mucking around with it to see what it gets me. Right now, I think any of the ringing I have I'm OK with. The metal snares ring is slightly more 'open' than annoying at the moment, and there's more than just gel I should address with the Mapex.
But I'm down with experimenting....


thanx guys

[justjim]

Originally Posted by genereaux

. But I expect at some point they'll make the trip and I can set my 'real' drummer loose on it.

In a lot of ways, for soundcheck you'll want him LEASHED on it (so you can just focus wth the instrument as opposed to his playing)
but I think you guys will be used to that from general soundchek


He's a DW guy, so I'm sure he'll hate me over the Camco (but I don't know where he stands on the 24 vs 22 issue).

Oh, it gets even worse - 20s are also a popular option

funky thing I find is that while idiophones (cymbals, woodblocks, etc) are a little more of "it is what it is" (which makes sense I mean that's what idiophone implies!)
- membraphones, you can tune em.

So, if you get it dialed, he may be more impressed with the setup job -- just like if you get on a squire that somebody set up really well. I mean it's still a squire, but within that you can go "damn, you got this to play pretty nicely" and dig on what the guy brought out in it.

so no fear there!
let it be what it is



I'm reading a lot folks seem 'anti-gel', but I'm not above it. I'll probably grab some up here fairly soon and start mucking around with it to see what it gets me. Right now, I think any of the ringing I have I'm OK with. The metal snares ring is slightly more 'open' than annoying at the moment, and there's more than just gel I should address with the Mapex.
But I'm down with experimenting....


even if you go anti-gel for performance, they can be helpful learning to hear various ringing, etc (and give you a "target sound" to get closer to) -- mean they take like 1/4 second to remove and it isn't jus on-off...where you position em changes things so you can kind of use them like "training wheel" in exploring various tones a drum can make -- so even if you use them as "training wheels" they are great and if you get somebody who does request "a really dry thud"...BAM in 2 seconds there you are

so have fun with it and don't worry too much!

[genereaux]

Originally Posted by justjim

In a lot of ways, for soundcheck you'll want him LEASHED on it (so you can just focus wth the instrument as opposed to his playing)
but I think you guys will be used to that from general soundcheck.

There's no leashing that guy :)
No, but he's just as good a drum tech as drummer, so I imagine he'd spend a good deal of time being methodical before 'unleashing'

Originally Posted by justjim

Oh, it gets even worse - 20s are also a popular option.

Oh, yeah. But he runs a 22 on his kit. I don't know if it's ENTIRELY his pref to use a 22, or if he got it cause that's what was available at the time or if it's easier to rent his kit that way (to local promoters and backline companies)

Originally Posted by justjim

funky thing I find is that while ideophones (cymbals, woodblocks, etc) are a little more of "it is what it is" (which makes sense I mean that's what ideophone implies!).

I just meant my Apple I phone, like an Ipod to play along with.....

Originally Posted by justjim

just like if you get on a squire that somebody set up really well. I mean it's still a squire, but within that you can go "damn, you got this to play pretty nicely" and dig on what the guy brought out in it.

Now that you mention it, he did get a Squire tele a few years ago that I did a setup on for him. He owes me :)

[justjim]

Originally Posted by genereaux

There's no leashing that guy :)

AWESOME!!
excellent time to mess with him
"You've been playing years, I've only been playing months - BUT I can play the RESTS ;-) "

(think the "razorgirl" tryout in the film ver of Johnny Mnemonic -- too bad it was such a crappy adaptation. I think Gibson did his own adaptation, which probably wasn't a good idea. but that little scene had something to say..."just hold it there..." )




Oh, yeah. But he runs a 22 on his kit. I don't know if it's ENTIRELY his pref to use a 22, or if he got it cause that's what was available at the time or if it's easier to rent his kit that way (to local promoters and backline companies)

good thing it's YOUR kit! ;-)

but yeah, for some guys it's just a "run what you brung" for others could be 20-22-24 even 26! or sometimes 18!


I just meant my Apple I phone, like an Ipod to play along with.....

I think we're off-page there, I was talking about the "him hating it" part in terms of brand, overall quality level, etc and tuning up what ya got (not quite following the iphone thing)

[genereaux]

Originally Posted by justjim

I think we're off-page there, I was talking about the "him hating it" part in terms of brand, overall quality level, etc and tuning up what ya got (not quite following the iphone thing)

Ahhh. I was connecting your 'ideophone' to my 'Iphone'. Slight disconnect....

But no, He won't HATE the Camco (he LOVES Camco), he'd hate the fact that I found/got one and he has to "settle" for his DW 'crap' (lol)

[justjim]

oops - sorry

prob didn't help that I chronically misspell that (I fixed it) - good thing I don't chronically misspell "chronically" -- "easily" messes me up too - I always put two Ls

I meant Idiophone as in the musical instrument classification chordophone,membraphone, aerophone and all that (same root as "idiom" -- they ' are what they are' and make their sound by vibrating as a whole -- like a cymbal)

[Aeolian]

Is that some sort of budget Slingerland snare with triple flange instead of cast hoops? It also looks like an old Pearl (before they were considered good) except for the throw off. I'm curious as to what the experts say.

I'm glad you're having fun with it. Drumming really helps you as a guitarist. Both to understand the drummer, and to improve your sense of phrasing. I don't know if you're familiar with these guys but a couple of guitarists local to me started out on drums. Garth Webber (ex. Miles and others) played drums in various bands before switching to guitar. John Wedemeyer (Charlie Musselwhite, Vince Welnick and others) started out in the high school percussion section before picking up the guitar. Another convert is Coco Montoya.

Due to flare-ups of arthritis in my left fingers, I'm going full on into drums and just keeping the guitars at home. I've been in a couple of bands and done casuals on drums over the years, but now it's time to dedicate myself to it. I've always been a frustrated drummer, playing guitar. Probably why I always tried to grab time behind the drums since my j-teen band days.

Who knows, you may end up liking it and converting as well. At least you don't have to remember what a b9#11 chord is. :-)

[genereaux]

Originally Posted by Aeolian

Is that some sort of budget Slingerland snare with triple flange instead of cast hoops? It also looks like an old Pearl (before they were considered good) except for the throw off. I'm curious as to what the experts say.

I don't know. I 'internetted' around and never saw any Pearl lugs that looked like that. But, again, I'm new at this. Here, I'll prove it;
What is 'triple flange'?

Originally Posted by Aeolian

Due to flare-ups of arthritis in my left fingers, I'm going full on into drums and just keeping the guitars at home.

So far, arthritis hasn't effected my guitar playing (yet, maybe), but I am curious about my wrists/forearms with the drumming

Originally Posted by Aeolian

Who knows, you may end up liking it and converting as well. At least you don't have to remember what a b9#11 chord is. :-)

I doubt I'd STOP playing guitar altogether. Granted, there would be less having to remember suspended 4ths and such. But the COUNTING all the time! eeeesh.....

[Aeolian]

Triple flange are the stamped steel hoops that are on most drums like Ludwigs and Pearls. The 60's Slingerland snares I've seen like that come with cast hoops, similar to what you find on current Gretsch drums.

Back in the 60's, Pearl made the cheap drums sold by Sears and Montgomery Wards among others (like Danelectro, Kay and Harmony made their guitars). The snare strainer throw offs on those drums were pretty funky and didn't look like that. But in the dregs of my memory, the rest of that snare looks like those.

My arms and wrists don't bother me. But I learned fairly loose wristed technique many years ago. Basically the Moeller loose throw with the forearm and wrist and the rebound catch with the fingers. So I'm not really straining either my wrists or forearms, and neither gets tense or tight.

Have fun.