Differences in Cymbal Production Techniques

[oceansikth]

Hey!

I'm not too clear on what the differences are between different production techniques. Material aside, there must be more in the production processes to make high end cymbals so bloody expensive.

I just wanna open this up so that people can explain what hand hammering does to the sound, and what the difference is that and cheaper methods such as pressed sheet metal. And how modern techniques have allowed cheaper or even more advanced cymbals to be created.

Would be cool to hear of any more obscure production methods anyone knows about.

Cheers

[joshisaces]

Well, hand-hammering arguably makes the cymbal darker sounding, and machine hammering would make for a bright, modern sounding cymbal. What some companies have done is partially hand hammering the cymbal and partially machine hammering it for the perfect match between the two.


There are are so many variables to making cymbals and every company out there is experimenting with different different methods, many of which are copying off each other XD

A cymbal can be unlathed, raw, just hand hammered with no lathing, just raw with no hammering or lathing, and some even lathe part of the cymbal and leave some of it raw. There's just too many things you can do to a cymbal to name.

I'd love to see a cymbal with a raw bell, part brilliant bow at the top, natural in the middle, and raw again at the bottom of the bow. It'd look cool :)

[Steamer]

Traditional handmade cymbals tend to be much darker and more complex in general tonal character. You will get a wider range of individual sounds with the hand shaped and hand hammered process out of B20 bronze from within the same size model and series of cymbal from my experience.

This is a really great thing or not such a great thing as we just covered in another thread depending what you are after in your personal search and approach regarding cymbal sounds.

I'll take the dark, complex and unique individual cymbal creations myself that come from the old traditional handmade methods still used today in Istanbul, Turkey out of individually cast B20 bronze:}

[larryace]

I've been thinking lately about what effect shot peening would have on a cymbals sound. I wonder if the final product would be harder than a hand hammered model.
In case you never heard of shot peening, it's like shooting hundreds of small metal balls at high velocity at the cymbal all at once to compress the surface, making it harder.
I imagine the final product (on a ride) sounding very clicky, but I don't really know

[Strangelove]

I think there's alot more to tonal development of a cymbal other than hammering techniques. Zildjian machine hammers and machine lathes all their cymbals, yet they are darker than Paistes, who partially machine hammer, partialy hand hammer and manually lathe each professional grade cymbal. I suspect the alloy comes into play here, as well. Then there are Paiste Giant Beats, which are darker than any other non B20 Paiste cymbal, and completely uncharacteristic of the stereotype that is laid upon B8 alloy. I know Giant Beats go through a much different tempering and annealing process than 2002s and Rudes, so I assume this comes into play in the darker tonal characteristics. The way I have heard that hammering adds to the complexity of a cymbal is that it interupts the vibration waves, creating that intermittent sparkle or shimmer we hear in a cymbal's finish or decay. I'm not sure it really makes the sound darker, per se. Hand hammering is inconsistent compared to machine hammering, in that each blow is not delivered at the same velocity, so that will affect the sound, somewhat. As to machine hammering, there are really two different types of this. One is where the machine determines where the hammer hits, and the other is machine assisted, where a skilled worker determines placement using a pneumatic hammer, that delivers the same velocity force with each blow. IOW, there's alot of variables here other than machine vs hand hammering involved in sound development, and even methods between the two.

On the subject of casting, sheet cymbals, etc, there are alot of untruths being spread on this subject. All cymbals are cast, otherwise they would be dead sounding if they were pressed or forged. Some are cast in large sheets, rolled and then cut into blanks instead of being individually cast, rolled and trimmed into a single blank. UFIP even uses a centrifugal force process during individual casting which rearranges the molecular structure of the metal. What tonal differences do all these various methods make? It probably depends on the manufacturer more than the method. Listen to some Sabian B8s, and then listen to some Paiste Alphas. They are both 100% machine made from blanks that were cut from sheets. They are worlds apart. Listen to some Zildjain As that are 100% machine hammered and lathed versus some Paiste Signatures or 2002s that are machine asstisted hammered and hand lathed.

In the end, it's only your ears that can tell you which cymbals sound the best. We can have the longest winded debates on subjects like manufacturing techniques on this board, but nothing ever gets resolved, usually only dogmas reinforced.

[Steamer]

Just remember you cannot make B20 bronze into a sheet form. B20 bronze due to its very makeup and nature can only be individually cast. That's the truth...

[RogerLudwig]

Tin sells for 3 times what copper sells for; the higher the tin content, the faster the raw material prices goes up. It certainly isn't the whole story, but it is another factor in figuring out why B20 cymbals are (20% tin) higher priced than B8 (8% tin) or B12 (12% tin) cymbals.

[caddywumpus]

Originally Posted by Steamer

Just remember you cannot make B20 bronze into a sheet form. B20 bronze due to its very makeup and nature can only be individually cast. That's the truth...

Yeah, it's true. I picked up a carton of B20 bronze from the grocery store today and tried to make a sheet cymbal out of it. Totally didn't work!

[Strangelove]

I believe B20 also needs extra care in the tempering/annealing process to get the tin particles to behave properly, which would also increase the manufacturing cost.

B15 alloy is the mystery to me, because Paiste is so secretive about their processes. It is more expensive than B8 or B20, and I am not sure why. Could be the alloy, or the tempering/annealing processes needed for it.

B15 is a sheet bronze, but a very brittle one. Difficult to manufacture to the right quality, so that might explain some of the cost.

[Steamer]

Originally Posted by caddywumpus

Yeah, it's true. I picked up a carton of B20 bronze from the grocery store today and tried to make a sheet cymbal out of it. Totally didn't work!

LOL!

We've got a live one... :}

[Strangelove]

Originally Posted by Mediocrefunkybeat

B15 is a sheet bronze, but a very brittle one. Difficult to manufacture to the right quality, so that might explain some of the cost.

It shouldn't be more brittle than B20, should it? What else is in the Signature alloy besides copper and tin?

[joshisaces]

Originally Posted by caddywumpus

Yeah, it's true. I picked up a carton of B20 bronze from the grocery store today and tried to make a sheet cymbal out of it. Totally didn't work!

That sort of sounds like a joke, but on the other hand it totally sounds like you're serious.

Can you really buy b20 bronze at the store?



I'm in awe.

[caddywumpus]

Originally Posted by joshisaces

That sort of sounds like a joke, but on the other hand it totally sounds like you're serious.

Can you really buy b20 bronze at the store?



I'm in awe.

Of course! It was right next to the orange juice. Impulse buy, I know...

Originally Posted by westerner1

It shouldn't be more brittle than B20, should it? What else is in the Signature alloy besides copper and tin?

It's actually more brittle because of the fact that it is sheet bronze. B20 bronze is cast, as we all well know, but that is because it can't be rolled. B15 bronze is actually more brittle than B20 cast bronze because it is rolled. Micro fractures may appear because of the rolling process that don't occur when it is cast instead.

[MrPowerRide]

Originally Posted by westerner1

It shouldn't be more brittle than B20, should it? What else is in the Signature alloy besides copper and tin?

they have a couple additives that are a secret so to speak. so its b15 + ancient swiss secret :)

[Strangelove]

Originally Posted by Mediocrefunkybeat

It's actually more brittle because of the fact that it is sheet bronze. B20 bronze is cast, as we all well know, but that is because it can't be rolled. B15 bronze is actually more brittle than B20 cast bronze because it is rolled. Micro fractures may appear because of the rolling process that don't occur when it is cast instead.

OK, now I'm getting confused. Even sheets that are cut into multiple blanks are cast, but how do you know Signatures are? And for that matter, wouldn't that make B8s more brittle than B20?

Also, I believe even individual cast cymbals get rolled. I'll have to check out Sabian's factory tour on their website, but am pretty certain of this.

The material is cast and then rolled into sheets. B20 cymbals are cast into a vague cymbal shape and then rolled after shaping, which changes the tension in the cymbal. They are rolled under a lesser pressure. The Istanbul Agop production video (it has done the rounds before) shows this process. B15 bronze is rolled at a different stage in production.

B8 bronze is not as brittle because of the lowered tin content. Correct my metallurgy if it is incorrect, but increased tin content (given that all else is equal) in bronze makes it more brittle than the lower tin content equivalent. This means that B8 can be rolled without compromising the structure of the metal, but the B15 bronze rolled in sheets can suffer from a compromise in production as a result of its rolling.

[Steamer]

After a B20 ingot comes out of a pot it is is rolled in a press several times and heated coming in and out of a oven repeatedly till it gets to the rough final circular size of a cymbal. This is called the annealing process. After given its final bath it then goes on to have its bell size stamped in place by hand by a bell press then trimmed to size then goes on to be shaped entirely by hand starting with the profile first.

Such are the traditional Turkish methods involving a cymbal started as a cast B20 ingot in a individual pan as still used in Istanbul today.

[Strangelove]

Originally Posted by Mediocrefunkybeat

The material is cast and then rolled into sheets. B20 cymbals are cast into a vague cymbal shape and then rolled after shaping, which changes the tension in the cymbal. They are rolled under a lesser pressure. The Istanbul Agop production video (it has done the rounds before) shows this process. B15 bronze is rolled at a different stage in production.

B8 bronze is not as brittle because of the lowered tin content. Correct my metallurgy if it is incorrect, but increased tin content (given that all else is equal) in bronze makes it more brittle than the lower tin content equivalent. This means that B8 can be rolled without compromising the structure of the metal, but the B15 bronze rolled in sheets can suffer from a compromise in production as a result of its rolling.

I too understand that copper is a softer metal than tin. What I have never been clear about is whether Signatures are cut from sheets or individually cast, which would of course explain the increase in cost. Paiste says they do both, on their website, but don't specify which product lines. Where did you find out that Signature blanks are cut from sheets?

[joshisaces]

Originally Posted by caddywumpus

Of course! It was right next to the orange juice. Impulse buy, I know...

That wasn't funny... ;)

Originally Posted by westerner1

I too understand that copper is a softer metal than tin. What I have never been clear about is whether Signatures are cut from sheets or individually cast, which would of course explain the increase in cost. Paiste says they do both, on their website, but don't specify which product lines. Where did you find out that Signature blanks are cut from sheets?

I can't exactly remember if I'm honest, but it was a while ago and most likely on this forum or on Cymbalholics.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

Originally Posted by caddywumpus

Yeah, it's true. I picked up a carton of B20 bronze from the grocery store today and tried to make a sheet cymbal out of it. Totally didn't work!

Did you use baking powder or baking soda??

[bobdadruma]

Isn't there a small quantity of silver added to B20 alloy? If so, What is the purpose for the silver?

[Strangelove]

Originally Posted by bobdadruma

Isn't there a small quantity of silver added to B20 alloy? If so, What is the purpose for the silver?

It is in all the bronze alloys. Copper has traces of silver in it that never get removed. It's not added, just inherent in the copper.

[bobdadruma]

Originally Posted by westerner1

It is in all the bronze alloys. Copper has traces of silver in it that never get removed. It's not added, just inherent in the copper.

Thank You. I thought that I read that Zildjian added silver to their alloy. I guess that it was just a way of implying that silver was part of the formula. It is simply an inherent ingredient.

[larryace]

Copper has traces of silver inherent in it?
I'm sorry but WADR I have to question the source of this, it doesn't sound right to me.
Does silver have traces of copper in it?
Can you cite your source of info Westerner?

[Candyman]

I absolutely love How It's Made:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VUBV08AdUc

[Steamer]

Or this short version of how it's still done across the pond :}

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C48Vs...d.php?p=267861


About other trace elements:

Cymbal makers have also be known to use small but significant amounts of other elements, notably silver, gold and phosphorus added to the cymbal formula.

[bobdadruma]

Thanks Steamer and Candyman. When I first began to play, cymbals became tarnished easily. The tarnish would get so thick that it wouldn't clean off. I know that cymbals are coated now to help prevent this. What is the coating that is used? I have Paiste and Zildjian cymbals that are 28 years old and they still look like new. The coating never wears off. How is this possible?

[Steamer]

Originally Posted by bobdadruma

Thanks Steamer and Candyman. When I first began to play, cymbals became tarnished easily. The tarnish would get so thick that it wouldn't clean off. I know that cymbals are coated now to help prevent this. What is the coating that is used? I have Paiste and Zildjian cymbals that are 28 years old and they still look like new. The coating never wears off. How is this possible?

They use a special thin spray on coating that can only come off with the use of a corrosive metal cleaner like Brasso then they develope a patina like my favorite Turkish pies with no coating put on them in the factory.

Patina is my friend Bob..... but shiny pies are just fine with me too... :}

[Fiery]

Originally Posted by Mediocrefunkybeat

The material is cast and then rolled into sheets. B20 cymbals are cast into a vague cymbal shape and then rolled after shaping, which changes the tension in the cymbal. They are rolled under a lesser pressure. The Istanbul Agop production video (it has done the rounds before) shows this process. B15 bronze is rolled at a different stage in production.

B8 bronze is not as brittle because of the lowered tin content. Correct my metallurgy if it is incorrect, but increased tin content (given that all else is equal) in bronze makes it more brittle than the lower tin content equivalent. This means that B8 can be rolled without compromising the structure of the metal, but the B15 bronze rolled in sheets can suffer from a compromise in production as a result of its rolling.

All cymbals except Ufip are cast, then rolled, then shaped. B20 cymbals are shaped after rolling just like B8, B15, brass and cymbals from any other copper-based alloy. The most important difference is the heating and annealing process done while rolling - as far as I know, B8 can be pretty much cold-pressed into sheets while B20 has to be constantly reheated.
B15 is probably worked in a process more similar to that of B8 than of B20, which should make it somewhat more brittle than both.

[bobdadruma]

Originally Posted by Steamer

They use a special thin spray on coating that can only come off with the use of a corrosive metal cleaner like Brasso then they develope a patina like my favorite Turkish pies with no coating put on them in the factory.

Patina is my friend Bob..... but shiny pies are just fine with me too... :}

Thanks, I also have some patina coated old friends. I only have a few, I have sold and donated most of my older cymbals. I know that the sound mellows when the cymbal ages with this patina. There is still something to be said about brilliant shinny cymbals that appear new.
Is the coating applied with an electrical charge that bonds it to the bronze?

[Steamer]

Originally Posted by bobdadruma

Thanks, I also have some patina coated old friends. I only have a few, I have sold and donated most of my older cymbals. I know that the sound mellows when the cymbal ages with this patina. There is still something to be said about brilliant shinny cymbals that appear new.
Is the coating applied with an electrical charge that bonds it to the bronze?

It's a type of thin plastic sprayed on film top and bottom is my understanding Bob.

I remember YEARS ago using some Brasso on a Paiste 2002 ride only to remove this spray coating in question and it started to turn and change into a different color the NEXT DAY. Oops... :}

[bobdadruma]

Originally Posted by Steamer

It's a type of thin plastic sprayed on film top and bottom is my understanding Bob.

I remember YEARS ago using some Brasso on a Paiste 2002 ride only to remove this spray coating in question and it started to turn and change into a different color the NEXT DAY. Oops... :}

I have known of many a drummer who has made that mistake! It doesn't take long for unprotected bronze to oxidize. That is why it is so amazing to me that a thin coating can prevent oxidation from occurring. I have also been told that you shouldn't leave coated cymbals in direct sunlight for long periods. The ultraviolet rays ruin the coating. I only use cymbal cleaner and water.

[Strangelove]

Originally Posted by larryace

Copper has traces of silver inherent in it?
I'm sorry but WADR I have to question the source of this, it doesn't sound right to me.
Does silver have traces of copper in it?
Can you cite your source of info Westerner?

http://www.eoearth.org/article/Silver